Something I wish more Obama supporters understood

[lastliberalintexas]

He isn't the best thing since sliced bread. He isn't the savior of the country, the party or the free world. He isn't immune to media attacks. He isn't revolutionary or even really new. He can't walk on water, though maybe he can turn water into wine (and that would be good enough for me, so long as it's Centine).

Some of you people act like Obama holds the positions of Kucinich with the charisma of JFK, the electability of Reagan and the political longevity of FDR. He's not "all that". He is apparently the best our party has been able to proffer this year, and is actually much like Bill Clinton from 1992. He is a fine candidate and seems like a nice person, but he's just moderately left and is not going to revolutionize the country or our government. He will hopefully restore some semblance of sanity to the White House if he is elected, but he isn't the lionized paperboard image so many of you have created over the last few months. The disappointment quotient of an Obama presidency will be incredible.

I just really wish I saw less hyperbole from Obama supporters, both online and in real life. I like him well enough, and I'd probably be able to actually get a little excited about his campaign if I could ignore many of his supporters. :shrug:

Yes, I am fully prepared to get flamed, but I don't care. I think I posted something about the Clinton supporters a year ago when so many of them were acting just as obnoxious. I guess equal time means both camps get to act like jerks. Hopefully this too shall pass. ANd flame away. :)

[FlyingSquirrel]

1. Um, a lot of us know that.

A lot of us just REALLY don't like Hillary.

Is that so bad?

[Andy823]

32. I agree.

I was for Edwards, and still would be if he were in the race. I don't "worship" Obama, but he is by far better than Hillary, and that's a fact. At least with him I see some hope of getting a change. Maybe not as much as Edwards would have given us, but a hell of a lot more than what Hillary would give us!

[mcctatas]

2. ...

Hope and passion are so annoying aren't they?

[Raejeanowl]

6. Apparently Not Half As Much As Injections of Reality and Pragmatism n/t

[annie1]

149. amen.

[lastliberalintexas]

17. When untempered by reason, yes, they actually are

One can be passionate about a person, subject or profession and still see clearly. Hope doesn't require blinders, either.

I love the passion of the Obama campaign, in fact it's the thing that most intringued me about him early on. But we have a problem when the normal response of supporters to legitimate criticism of either him or his campaign is "Oh, but he's too charismatic/intelligent/whatever to allow the media to turn on him" or something similar. Lose the denial and start getting ready to respond to all the BS the republicans are going to throw. Some Obama supporters actually believe Clinton has been nasty, just wait. But let's get prepared in the meantime, rather than floating down that certain river in Egypt.

[mcctatas]

27. I am sick to death of Hillary supporters telling ME that I should

choose her because the republicans will slime Obama. Since when do we let republicans bully us into picking our nominee. Denial is the fact that she cannot win the nomination, but rather than uniting, she is so deluded that she thinks if she damages him enough, we will realize the "error of our ways" and look to Hillary to save us. Newsflash, even republicans say that she is thier biggest fundraising tool, their hatred of her is enough to bring even the most retrograde puke out of his/her basement to vote for McCain....

[lastliberalintexas]

30. Dammit this has nothing to do with Clinton

I am NOT- I repeat NOT a fucking Clinton supporter.

I guess I need to put something in my sig, because, while it happens more with Obama, I get that from both camps if I post anything the least bit complimentary about their fave.

[mcctatas]

34. OK, fine you're not a clinton supporter...

that does not change the fact that I won't be bullied into choosing a candidate based on how much or little the republicans will slime them! So I guess I should have said Hillary supporters, republicans AND OTHERS. Doesn't change a fucking thing about what I said!

[ClericJohnPreston]

110. And

like a true little cultist, you completely ignore the gist of the OP and direct responses to you, in preference to some tangential argument, which isn't being made.

How about responding to the OP, that Obama is merely human, not some God-like entity. In fact, he is, as stated, BARELY left of center, though I believe him right of center.

[mcctatas]

113. follow the thread you condescending blowhard!

[dionysus]

119. sorry you're bitter about john, uh... being a dismal failure as a candidate...

who's the cult member again?

you bitter edwards ppl are a gas...

[JoFerret]

145. Pipe down

.

[dionysus]

120. sorry you're bitter about john, uh... being a dismal failure as a candidate...

who's the cult member again?

you bitter edwards ppl are a gas...

[scheming daemons]

3. I've said repeatedly.... Obama 2008 is Clinton 1992... without bimbo eruptions

Obama is Bill Clinton 2.0. New and improved.



Not perfect... but the best candidate we've put forth in decades.

[Raejeanowl]

4. Thanks For A Badly-Needed Dose Of Perspective n/t

[dansolo]

5. The hyperbole is coming from the Hillary supporters

It is a straw man. I haven't heard anyone who supports Obama say any of the things that you claim.

[anonymous171]

10. Agreed.

If you want to see truly delusional supporters, go to hillaryclintonsupporterforums

[lastliberalintexas]

23. Except that I am not a Clinton supporter

Yet I've noticed a pattern from *some* Obama supporters when media issues in particular are discussed. Since that is a pet (peeve) issue of mine, I've probably paid more attention to those threads and posts. Some Obama supporters have posted vile, right wing hit pieces on Clinton, just because they are currently attacking her. In doing so, they are building up the very corporate media jackasses who will go after him when he has the nomination. When I point out that the media isn't always going to be his friend, I get responses very similar to that in my OP. Perhaps not verbatim, but I do remember one which specifically said he was too charismatic for those kinds of attacks to hurt him. Alrighty.

Many of his supporters are grounded and understand the battle yet to come. Many apparently do not. I just ask for that second group to have a little more perspective, that's all.

[Solon]

28. Maybe its the amount of enthusiasm displayed by many supporters...

And this applies equally with Hillary supporters as well, but things like saying "Gobama" or "Gomama" or whatever the equivalent is for Hillary. Applauding after speeches, etc. I'm simply puzzled by the spectacle surrounding either candidate. I mean, seriously, what the fuck is wrong with people who cheer on politicians?

Then again, it could just be my personality type, I'm mystified by 4th of July(I'm not a patriot), and I'm mystified by fans of sports teams, especially the really wild ones that dress up and shit. I don't know, I just think people of this type are nuts.

[Seeker30]

73. Oh really?

[krkaufman]

136. So what's the point? That we're supposed to notice the one person in this picture ...

... who appears to be enraptured, while ignoring every other person in the picture that seem to be mildly engaged, at best, to outright detached (with arms-crossed)?

[tabatha]

7. This country has gone through hell the last 8 years.

Emotions are high - on both sides.

I would rather see people over-excited about a candidate than apathetic.

[mmonk]

8. I support him but he wasn't my first choice.

So this idea that somehow we think he is a savior is ridiculous. What is the hyperbole?

[Muttocracy]

16. agreed - it's clear he wasn't the first choice of many on DU

[slick8790]

26. Likewise.

I, like a sizable portion of DU, was originally a John Edwards supporter. And I still think he'd be a superior candidate than either of the two that are left. I know Obama isn't perfect, and he's certainly no messiah, but he's still light years ahead of Hillary. At least Obama got to where he is on his own merits.

[Shae]

60. Not my first choice

or my second choice.
I like him miles and miles more than Hillary though.
I used to like Hillary okay, but I can't stand her now.

[GetTheRightVote]

9. No, Obama is the best candidate we've had in decades though

and I for one am happy to be apart of what I believe will be a history making point in our nation.

[karynnj]

22. I know it's a minority postion, but I think Kerry was

[virtualobserver]

37. Kerry could have won easily if he had fully contrasted his military service with Bush's

If he had it to do over again, I think that he would do it differently

[karynnj]

106. I really don't think so

There was an article in the NYT when the Rather story first appeared that referred to some polling they did of Bush voters, They found that Bush voters would not be moved no matter what came out on his service. To me this means either that they considered it irrelevant to the job Bush was already doing or they had already accepted that he did many things "when he was young and irresponsible" that he was not proud of - but they had in electing him to begin with said it was forgiven. (In judging this, the most comparable analogy that I can think of is to consider how many Democrats Bill Clinton would have lost to Bob Dolehad there been prove that his behavior was inappropriate with Paula Jones. (That shift made because avoiding the draft was not against the values of most of us, but the actions charged by Jones are against liberal values and we supported ending at least one Senate career because of it.

Kerry has said himself that there are things he would do differently - though there is no way to test if they would help. He said he would opt out of public financing. (that would have it's own cost as he was a career long advocate of public financing and Bush didn't opt out, so Kerry would have been the first to opt out). He has said, as an Obama advocate, that they will put money behind the truth using the very channel where the lies came from. Now, in 2004, what helped the SBVT is that the established media gave these guys undeserved credibility - they asked for no proof from them, while publicly calling on Kerry to disprove them. When you consider that Kerry had a spotless record and Navy medals and a record filled with praise and a 30 year record as a public servant/public figure with no scandals, this is appalling. Adding Kerry commercials might only have given this even more a Kerry said, they said feel.

It should also be noted that the Clinton allies who fostered the he didn't fight back conventional wisdom were on record in 2004 whining that he shouldn't mention Vietnam. Now Kerry included only one line on Vietnam in his stump speech - that he fought for his country as a young man. The only time he said more was before the Firefighters and that was answering the SBVT. The real problem might have been the established Democratic party let Kerry down in an appalling way. Where was the pushback to the media on this from the party. The election was very close, but even if it wasn't - they owed it to the nominee to protect his reputation and they didn't.

[virtualobserver]

129. You are right, it would have been tricky..........

Maybe it needed to be Edwards that led the charge forcefully in defending him and attacking the SBVT. I do agree that Kerry was seriously let down by the Democratic Party structure, and they are the same structural elements supporting Hillary today.

[PassingFair]

124. If he hadn't voted to authorize Bush's War....

he might have been able to do that.

We needed a CLEAR contrast.

We needed Howard Dean.

[virtualobserver]

130. I love Howard Dean and was deeply disappointed when he lost...

but I don't think that the American people were connected enough to reality in order for him to win at that moment.

[PassingFair]

131. My guess is that they...

still aren't.

:cry:

:hug:

[virtualobserver]

133. hopefully they will be by November

by next year, everyone will be a member of the reality based community.

[PassingFair]

140. How can I hope you are right...

and wish you were wrong, at the same time?

:cry:

[earth mom]

143. Newsflash for ya: Kerry DID WIN 2004. The rethuglicans stole the election & 2000 too. nt

[JoFerret]

104. Massive defeat in November?

Crikey.
Maybe people don't want all this transformation and transcendence.

Maybe they want health care and jobs and a way out of Iraq.

[Barack_America]

11. I understand that. I have heard the man speak in person 3-times...

I shook his hand. I did not cry. I did not swoon.

But when I work with his dedicated young volunteers, I swoon.

When I see the excitement and determination in my community, I swoon.

The man inspires me, but it's what he inspires in others that I crush on.

[BlooInBloo]

12. Every single one of us knows that. Thanks for the strawman! o/

[Egnever]

13. Sorry but his technology platform if enacted WILL change our government

Forever!

Sure he isn't god or even close to perfect but the idea that his presidency wont be trans formative is utter hogwash.

[thevoiceofreason]

14. We don't think that.. Most of us are reasonable beer-drinking "regulars"

That's just another damn talking point. We realize he has flaws (just as he - alone among all the candidates - acknowledges that he has flaws). From my perspective, if I can find a candidate with whom I agree 70% of the time, I am thrilled. I'm probably 65% with Barack. And frankly, most of his supporters (not necessarily here on DU) are the same way.

Most of we Obama supporters like him, but we are very much loyal democrats with one marching order - get the republicans the hell out of the White House.

If Obama wins the nod, I look forward to working with you. If Hillary gets it, I'll be backing her.

Peace

[mrreowwr_kittty]

15. I agree with you that Obama has plenty of warts.

I can't speak for every supporter, but what makes me so hopeful about his candidacy is the truly great job he has done organizing on the ground. He's surrounded himself with competent people and you can really see his community organizer background. As of now, he has not only raised more money than any candidate in history, but he has raised an awful lot of it from regular people donating small amounts. He is not a wholly owned subsidiary of the corporatocracy and it scares the crap out of them. I can't predict whether he'll leverage that to transform the government and work for the people or not. But I'd like to give him the chance.

[scarletwoman]

18. Heh.

Why I prefer Obama -- not because I think he's "all that", but simply because he's not Clinton.

sw

[lastliberalintexas]

That's funny- I'm sorry I missed your thread

:)


My post really has nothing to do with Clinton, though, since I'm not a fan of hers. You've been here a long time too, so I'm sure you remember the arrogance of the Clinton supporters from about a year ago. Absolutely intolerable from so many of them. Not all, just like with Obama's supporters.

It's just that some, or many, or maybe just a determined vocal few, seem caught up in some kind of hysteria about how radical his campaign is and governance will be. It just seems like more than normal enthusiasm to me for what is a very mainstream candidate (other than the race and gender of each, they are both very cautious, centrist politicians). But maybe I'm also just too old and cynical, I don't know. :shrug:

[scarletwoman]

45. It's still a live thread, if you want to say anything there.

I don't pay any attention to the overwrought zealots on either side.

[quakerboy]

19. We see what we can do with the raw materials

Or at least I do. He seems like he is open to new ideas, and to listening to what people want. McCain would bully and ignore us. Hillary would rule us. Obama might just be directed by us.

He has made it clear that if he wins, it is on US to make things happen. I don't think he would stand in our way the way the other remaining candidates would. And that is significantly why I support him. I am willing to keep doing the work, and having a leader who welcomes that would pump me up.

[kentuck]

20. He has said that he isn't perfect...

and has gone on to prove it. So?

[Psst_Im_Not_Here]

21. Of course not.

It's not so much what he is as much as it is what he inspires US to be. No one person can possibly make the changes by themselves, president or not.

Just my perspective anyway.

[fadedrose]

24. Another thing I like about Obama is that he ISN'T Hillary nt

[virtualobserver]

25. He is trying to revolutionize politics on a number of levels, which is a difficult task

He is trying to change the way things are done politically in order to make it possible for more Progressive action to occur.
The Republicans have successfully branded Liberals negatively and the DLC response has helped to solidify the negative perception. Obama intends to make the logical case for Progressive goverment, which is reasonable since most Americans agree with most Liberal policies. It shouldn't be revolutionary, but these days it is.

[Skip Intro]

29. The "realness" of Obama would not be a mystery if people knew more about him

than Hallmark slogans, cool logos, and attempts at bowling.

This place went into fauxrage DefCon 9 at the audacity of the ABC mods to ask questions of him in the last debate that might give people a clue into who this man is. Hillary's had to answer questions about her marriage, for God's sake.

The fact that many Obama supporters have trouble speaking in specifics about why they support him speaks volumes.

[virtualobserver]

31. have you read his books?

[Skip Intro]

46. Good God no. Have you read Hillary's?

That is so often a reply from Obama supporters tho, when I've asked them questions here, about specifics - get pointed to his books alot.

Whatever is in there doesn't make him some untouchable icon, tho. I don't want an untouchable icon for presdient, anyway. But I've seen threads of blind priase here get floated to the greatest page with tons of recs. I've seen the hero-worship paraded. And I've seen Obama be a crafty politician, I've seen him say one thing and then the other, I've seen him pander, I've seen him attack, I've seen him lie, and I don't trust him. He sells good feelings. He inspires blind devotion, not confidence. Want no part of it.


Please, name your three position-oriented reasons why you think Barack Obama is best qualified to be president.

[lastliberalintexas]

52. I disagree somewhat

I think both of our candidates are mostly decent people, but I agree that Obama (and Clinton) have each pandered and acted like politicians during this campaign. I don't think Obama only inspires blind devotion, and I think there are many substantive reasons to support him (or Clinton).

What has bothered me for some time now, though, is that sentiment you've described as him being untouchable. He's not, the corporate media are going to slice and dice, and we- all of us Democrats- need to be prepared to respond. I think some of Obama's supporters might be at a loss for how to respond other than as deer in the headlights, just because some have their heads in the sand.

But I don't think that's a reflection on him, and I think he'll run a good campaign if/when he gets the nomination.

[Skip Intro]

58. I think there's been a big "hands off" approach to questioning Obama during the primaries

I agree with much of what you said, but should we wait 'till November to see what's beind just the first few layers? I mean, we should want to know what we may be getting in addition to how to respond to possible future attacks.

[virtualobserver]

64. if you haven't, then you haven't been exposed to the logic of what he is trying to do

it is his approach to politics that I believe in. He isn't an untouchable icon and he is not responsible for the hero-worship of others, he is a person with a specific set of beliefs about what works and does not work in politics.

All human beings are flawed, and he is no different. I can't argue with your perceptions....they are your own.

The most important positions for me are 1. That in 2002 he was saying what I personally thought was obvious....that the IRAQ war was ill conceived. I saw an interview of him that occurred prior to the invasion (11-25-2002) which he accurately described the current 2008 situation in IRAQ in detail. He was able to accurately project the outcome

2. I admire him for saying that he is willing to talk to leaders like Castro or Chavez. This weird double standard that allows us to speak to the leader of China or Kazakhstan and not Cuba or Venezuela is foolish.

3. . Obama will also increase the minimum wage and index it to inflation to ensure it rises every year. That is long overdue

[Skip Intro]

71. Well...

In the first example you cited for him you said he said he was against the Iraq war in 2002. In 2004, when we had candidates running for preisdent and vp that had voted for the war, he said things like he didn't know how he would have voted, or that there was room for disagreement over the vote. He explained these positions away by saying it was a poltiical time, and he had to lighten up on his supposdely deeply held beliefs for political reasons.

Now it takes spin to believe what you list as your number one reason.

I'm glad he's ready to talk to our adversaries, but so is Hillary. He agreed to do it first year, face to face. She said diplomatic efforts must be a prerequisite, recognized the power of the office. I trust here there.

I agree with number three. How does he get it done? Again, I'd trust Hillary to get it done.


You have your views and I thank you for sharing them. This is a response to them, that is all.

[virtualobserver]

77. his 2004 remark in context- being kind to Kerry and Edwards,

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/2008/01/obama_and_iraq.html#more

Clinton then expressed surprise that Obama has been allowed to get away with a statement in 2004, "at the Democratic Convention," saying that there was "not much difference" between him and George W. Bush on Iraq. He also quoted Obama as saying that he "did not know" how he would have voted on the now-contentious 2002 Senate resolution authorizing military action in Iraq, had he been in the Senate at the time.

The way Clinton said all this, it sounded as if these statements were part of Obama's big speech to the convention, which marked his introduction to big-time politics. In fact, they are somewhat misleading snippets from newspaper interviews that Obama gave before the convention.

As the keynote speaker, Obama was trying to be loyal to the Democrataic nominees, John Kerry and John Edwards, both of whom had voted in favor of the war authorization resolution, along with Hillary Clinton. In a July 26 interview with the New York Times, a few days before the convention, he reiterated his opposition to the war but declined to criticize Kerry and Edwards, saying he was "not privy to Senate intelligence reports."

He then continued: "What would I have done? I don't know. What I know is that from my vantage point the case was not made."

(The Clinton campaign left out that important last sentence when it e-mailed reporters with backup material for the inconsistency claim, which was also made by Hillary Clinton in the televised debate Saturday night.)

In an interview the following day with the Chicago Tribune (July 27,2004), Obama said that he would have voted "no" on the Senate resolution.

[onenote]

33. I don't think he's the messiah and I don't think hillary is the spawn of satan

I do happen to think that he is the better choice to be the party's nominee.

[tokenlib]

35. He is well aware of his limitations..on the other hand...

Being a Clinton means never having to say you're sorry.

[bvar22]

36. Your OP is irrelevant.

Obama has won the nomination by ALL valid metrics.

Our job is to support the presumptive Democratic nominee.
Anything less is helping Republicans.

It doesn't matter if some Obama supporters believe him to be the Messiah.
It only matters that they vote for Obama and downticket Democrats in the GE.

[lastliberalintexas]

43. Well, my post wasn't about Obama, but his supporters

I think he'll be our nominee, and I've made the long journey from voting for neither since I live in the electoral hellhole known as Texas to agreeing to vote for either. In the meantime, I probably just need to read fewer sites and blogs so that I can ignore that faction of his supporters who worry me because of their refusal to acknowledge any weakness. (note I did not say that all are that way, and those were the only ones to whom my OP was addressed really)

[eallen]

38. If I thought he were as left as Kucinich, I would oppose Obama.

As much as I like Kucinich's style, I think his economic views are nuts.

:hippie:

[Solon]

47. What is nuts about his economic positions?

I don't expect a response, but what the hell, I'll ask anyways.

[lastliberalintexas]

55. He wants to actually ask the wealthy to pay taxes?

I mean, in the political environment in which we've operated for the last 8 years, that's been seen as a nutso idea, so maybe that's the problem. :shrug:


That was actually one of the reasons Bill Clinton became an even bigger target for the right wingers, his and the Dem Congress' budget which raised taxes on the upper echelon in order to eliminate the deficit and begin reducing the debt. I was working in DC at that time, and I can tell you we received some craaazy calls and letters over the taxes.

[Solon]

59. Frankly, I'm sick of all these assholes that call Kucinich crazy...

I think its a swipe at his brother(RIP dude, you suffered enough), but seriously, Kucinich isn't even a radical himself, center-left as opposed to center-right. Yes, I'm one of those looney leftists that thinks even Kucinich is too moderate!

[Seabiscuit]

93. But... but... but... they say... didn't he admit he thought he saw a flying saucer?

[Solon]

96. On the word of a person who isn't the most stable anyways...

Besides, I don't give a shit about that stuff, I care about policy, period, unless he wants to divert all our resources to fight an imaginary alien invasion, I don't see why it would matter.

[Seabiscuit]

116. I agree with you. Just pointing out one example of how they ridiculed Kucinich.

[cbayer]

39. Obama's got something that can not be dismissed.

He is charismatic and he has a message. He has enthused a disenchanted electorate.

However, I think that when we look back we will see that the enthusiasm was partially fueled by a manufactured hatred of a wonderful person.

He has drawn in many people, some of whom are understandably angry about the state of our politics. That their anger turned to hatred towards one of our own is very sad.

I will vote for Barack Obama and do it with pride, but I will shed a tear that his supporters have sought the destruction of a person who I deeply respect and admire.

[REACTIVATED IN CT]

115. The ill-will felt towards HRC was caused by her actions, not

anything Obama said or did. SHE decided to go negative on a fellow Democrat. SHE lied about her life experiences. SHE decided to be LIEberman in drag.

When the campaigns first started, I knew that the RW'ers hated her but I was open minded about all the candidates. Obama was not my first choice, but now I think he is the best choice for the country.

He saw thru the BS about the IWR

He has a vision of a different way of governing with more transparency

He does not take PAC contributions

As a professor of constitutional law, he understands the checks and balances that we are supposed to have in our system of government

[Jed Dilligan]

40. If he can continue to make people feel empowered for four or eight years,

we can have a revolution without any further help from him.

Every other president since Kennedy has made us feel squashed like bugs under the iron heel of the state we supposedly control.

[Solon]

50. I don't see how that will be possible...

People AREN'T empowered, by default, that's the way the system is set up, to basically defang most possible types of participation in our form of government. I don't see how Obama is going to change that.

[Jed Dilligan]

62. I think there's a lot of untapped potential at the grassroots level

because so many have your attitude. If Obama can change that attitude--in many cases, if not in yours--I can see good things happening.

What is your hope for the future?

[Solon]

65. My hope for the future? That the human race survives the next 50 years or so...

without blowing ourselves up or being stupid enough to kill ourselves off in some other way.

Hell, this nation is in such a sorry state that I have to look beyond our borders for inspiration, look at my avatar image, its the flag of the EZLN, the Zaptistas. Those types of folks inspire me, not two faced politicians who'd sell their own souls for a few votes.

[Jed Dilligan]

67. It's not the politicians

It's how the people respond to them.

[Solon]

68. Yeah, but if people respond to those politicians by destroying thier own critical thinking processes

why in the world would I want to be inspired by that? I fear for our future.

[Jed Dilligan]

76. Yet your critical thinking is not perfect.

6 billion people wiped out in 50 years? I don't think so.

[Solon]

78. I was hedging my bets, as it were...

I don't believe we will wipe ourselves out in 50 years, excepting someone being stupid enough to hit the so called "red button". But the fact is that the future isn't exactly as bright as I would like, I don't have much hope, as it were, for us, the only thing to hope for, really, is not killing ourselves off. Not saying it'll happen, but that's perhaps the least likely thing to happen, so that's all I'll dare to hope for.

[Jed Dilligan]

81. We would need sustained WWII-level casualties from here on out

to reach the goal of self-destruction in fifty years. People are small and good at hiding and we love to fuck. The only successful genocide in history happened on the tiny island of Tasmania.

The question isn't one of survival. It's one of what should survive. What level of the population and prosperity and standard of living and technical development and pace of economic growth and speed of travel and general pace of life in the 20th century do we actually WANT to retain in the 21st? I'm all for scaling back in some areas to shore up others.

The main thing that will allow us to do all we can is if our leaders make us feel positive rather than negative. I don't see how that could possibly be a bad thing, no matter how dire the situation. People do have power, but (except for a few superlative individuals, called "leaders") they need to be led to use it.

On the other hand, if people think a candidate is going to solve their problems without them having to do anything, they didn't have critical thinking abilities to begin with. And that's not the message I'm hearing from Obama, even if you think others are getting that from him.

Read your Marx again! The battle is in the mind of the people, not the streets.

[Solon]

90. I know, and your analysis is more or less accurate...

The big problem is that I see no leader on the horizon who is filled with even half decent ideas. Hell, Obama's ideas on Energy independence are disastrous and frankly in the wrong direction. He needs a leader to lead him in the right direction if he is to be an effective President. Just because a presumptive leader makes you feel positive about what's going to happen doesn't mean that leader has good ideas.

Also, I was talking about a possible Nuclear war, we have enough warheads to sterilize the surface of the planet somewhere around 6 times over.

Oh, by the way, I'm all for "scaling back" though I call it "gearing down" especially on energy consumption, but will either Obama or Hillary talk about that, hell no. At this moment, we are on the fast track to energy depletion, with nothing, and no leader, to stand in the way.

[Jed Dilligan]

144. I don't think the ideas are particularly relevant, because

we won't be in the market for ideas until the situation hits home. The default idea then will be, "Let's panic and kill our neighbors." At that point we will need a speaker. Someone to speak to us and tell us to think our way through this together instead of flailing on each other. I'm pretty much discounting all plans right now, because we will have a totally different situation on our hands before the next eight years is over. Ideas that were fringe before will move to the center--I'm already watching it happen in my own field of study and activism. We need a top person who is both a great speaker and a great listener; Obama is both; Hillary can neither speak nor listen to the people.

[crankychatter]

88. I ain't a genius but I ain't a star struck teeny bopper either

The Party is powerless under the threat of World War Three

and YOU want to keep it small because you don't like younguns

you're the one whose thinking is impaired

[AvaMae]

41. Something I wish more Obama supporters understood...

I am looking forward to the day I can wake up in the morning without worry about who was done
in the night, who did what, what deal was cooked, what liberty was somehow taken...

Huffpo roasting poor old Spitzer on the spit again...some second working girl has made some sort
of statement... Spitzer was ensnared by THE HOMELAND SECURITY ACT... that was never supposed to
be used on Americans... HIS OWN BANK TURNED HIM IN!

Not because he was some sort of wierdo, from what I gather, lots of old money, and I bet its in a different bank now, but just the idea that there's this little mechanism attached to everyone's account, and an investigation triggered on the use of your own money at a certain amount is chilling.

Where is the outrage?

[EmilyAnne]

42. Almost everything you have written here is hyperbole! But, true, I've been working on Obama's

campaign in PA for over a month and I have met some extremely obnoxious people who are also supporting him. Its tough to try to accept them and work alongside them for a common goal, while sort of thinking that they are doing more harm than good. Its just the way it goes.

[NJSecularist]

44. K&R. This is one of the many reasons why I switched my support to Hillary.

Some of Obama's supporters really think Obama is going to revolutionizing this country.

[zulchzulu]

48. No one I know thinks Obama is "perfect"...the choice couldn't be more clear though

I have done a lot of grassroots work for Obama since he announced and have been on the streets doing what I can with many others. I've discussed some issues that I don't agree on completely with Obama, but the choice of having him be the next President is something worth fighting for.

Will I or others just sit back when he is elected President and not say or do anything? No! I and I'm sure many others will demand that real change happen and that issues that rewind the Bush years begin and get carried through.

It's one thing to like Obama and support him. The next obvious step is to make sure he does what he says he is going to do. I trust that he will. If he get distracted or doesn't do what he said he wanted to do, then there's the next steps to take.

Having done a lot of grassroots work for Bill Clinton in 1992, I was greatly disappointed in what he ended up doing. Spare me the cut and paste "achievement list". I was there and I saw it all.

Frankly, I see that Hillary Clinton would do the same thing as Bill. Obama, on the other hand, would offer a true leadership chemistry to get both sides of the aisle to move forward and really make progress. Political posturing and theatrics get nothing done...we need bipartisan cooperation to make laws get passed.

It's good to be at least a little suspicious of ALL our leaders and keep fighting for real change. I would suggest talking with more people outside of anonymous forums and looking in their eyes and discussing what needs to get done.

[newmajority]

49. Do I think Obama is perfect? No.

But what I KNOW is that 28 years of BushClinton has all but destroyed this country, and this might be our last chance to undo the damage. We cannot stand 4, let alone 8 more years of this shit.

[The Doctor.]

51. Where's the hyperbole?

Seriously... I keep seeing these "Obama supporters are crazy" posts, but they're never substantiated.

If you have nothing, then welcome to my list of 'unfounded accusation'.

[Solon]

53. My only point of contention is that Obama is best characterized as a Moderate Right, not left...

candidate, the same as Hillary. Both are quite removed from the left side of the spectrum in politics.

[lastliberalintexas]

61. I guess it depends on the spectrum used

To me, they are both right wingers. In the US political climate, they are both moderately left to centrist. Heck, in the US these days, you are considered a Socialist if you want to simply dare to ask the wealthy to pay $5 in taxes. :)

[Solon]

63. Well, to put things in perspective...

<----The avatar you see me display is the flag of the EZLN, the Zapitista Army of National Liberation, I like most of their politics, and they don't discriminate, which is especially important. Personally, I'd prefer to vote for Subcommadante Marcos for President of the United States rather than any of the choices we are presented with.

On the Political Compass website, this is where I'm positioned:



To put this in perspective, here's where the candidates are on the same compass:



Oh, and I took a test through a link on DU, to see which political party you match with in Norway of all places, I was the only one who scored highest with the Reds, guess who they are.

[crankychatter]

91. so vote green or understand... there are two forms of Centrism

One is pragmatic... to get work done

the other is a direct function of corruption

Obama and Clinton are worlds apart

It's not possible to elect Kucinich in this climate after 20 years of commercial media and 24-7 propoganda

so you want to educate people or just posture morally and intellectually?

you feeding your ego or feeding PEOPLE?

I'm often wrong... I learn in here every day now

so pull my awareness up... or you're only sniping

[Solon]

97. When the results of both types of centrism are the same, then what's the point...

in even pointing them out. Besides that, there is a difference between compromising a position you hold, versus holding a compromised position before you even go to the negotiating table.

[last1standing]

54. Anyone who flames you for this is a hyper-partisan.

You're right on the mark and I hope you don't get hit too hard for stating the truth.

K&R!

[helderheid]

56. You're right. And ditto to some Clinton supporters.

[Tatiana]

57. Who has said Obama is perfect, walks on water, is the best thing since sliced bread, etc?

Point me in the direction of a post illustrating this school of thought from a true Obama supporter.

What I think is that you are buying into someone else's framing. As has been pointed out to you upthread, Obama says that he is not perfect. We know this. We just think he has more to offer (or will be less destructive) than the alternative.

Can you name one major political figure who has proposed making WH policy discussions public and available for viewing on the internet?

[crankychatter]

94. Nobody has said it but Clinton spinners

it's hyperbole of the "kool-aid" variety

more artfully couched, but nonetheless founded in fantasy

good post u

btw, I despise Clark

:-)

[Eurobabe]

66. Well if you could get excited, if it weren't for "his supporters"

I suggest you turn off DU. That should do the trick. :hi:

Anyone who who says they won't support a candidate because of what they read or don't read on DU is pretty stoopid. :crazy:

That's reality. DU isn't.

[donheld]

69. I very much realize that

He's a human being like everybody else. He is, however,
the best of what we have to pick from right now.

[Solon]

70. Your post is REALLY sad if you think about it...

:(

[wisteria]

72. I am grounded on Senator Obama, he is human just like the rest of us.

I support Senator Obama because he is the leader we need now. He sees what needs to be done and he intends to do what ever it takes to do just that. He is honest and I can trust that what he is telling me is the truth. I don't hear spin from him, I hear honesty and bluntness. He has more experience than Clinton having served in both the Ill State House and Senate and the US Senate. I also trust in his judgement enough to beleive he will seek and get the best people to serve in his cabinet. What he doesn't know, he will learn quickly and our country will be better for his Presidency. No more soap operas, no more lies or cheating. No more underhanded fundraising like renting out the Lincoln Bedroom for a few bucks.

We need real change. We need to start fresh and move forward. We can do that with Senator Obama.

[smiley_glad_hands]

74. I know exactly who it is that I support, warts and all.

It is the Hill supporters that call her "goddess". Obama may not be JFK but he is our nominee.

[Aloha Spirit]

75. I average 30 calls a day for Obama, and you know what? I don't wanna hang out with him....

Don't think he's the best speaker in the world.
But when he speaks, it's like having an oxygen mask put over my face after enduring 7 years of smoke inhalation.

[woolldog]

79. sanctimonious drivel

Thanks. I didn't realize he can't walk on water.

[AtomicKitten]

80. He taught Constitutional Law and worked as a Civil Rights Attorney.

I don't agree with your assessment that he is right of center. I would point you in the direction of his books for some perspective on what makes him tick. The sum total of this man is very different than the way some try to paint him.

[HopeforChange]

82. It's not the Hillary supporters I dislike, It's the deceit and divisiveness that they support. n/t

[Political Heretic]

83. I actually think Clinton supporters are the ones who truly don't get it. That's not what we think.

What he IS is the George Lakoff candidate.

I may disagree with you if you feel that Obama's message is purely vapor. That charge gets leveled a lot, and its fair that it does, since its the sign of a critically thinking individual, and I appreciate that. There is a difference between policy positions and political philosophy. And I believe that policy wise Obama is a center-left politician. I wouldn't go as far as to lump him in with the center-right DLC, but he is certainly not a champion of radical left politics by any stretch of the imagination. What I feel like Obama brings to the table that is different than politics is usual is a different political philosophy.

First of all, Obama didn't just invent his themes of hope and unity for this election. Like them or not, believe they are superficial or not, they have been a stable of his basic political philosophy for as long as he has been around. I actually believe that Obama is a "visionary" - I know visionary is usually a complimentary term, but in this case I mean it to be neutral. I call Obama the George Lakoff candidate, which is exactly what I think this country needs as STEP ONE toward a more progressive society. The first step won't be taken by staunch progressives. It will be taken by someone able to bridge the gap between politics and usual and a climate in which serious progressive discussions can be entertained and supported by the public.

The interesting thing about Obama's career is that instead of taking a "triangulation" approach to politics where you move the left more to the center in order to say "see, democrats are really 'mainstream' too, we just do what you want republicans to do better than they do" he takes the re-framing approach, and is presenting a way of talking about politics and envisioning mainstream America that excites people and begins the process of shifting the american center back to the left. His definition of unity is persuasive rather than capitulating, and he is a masterful, masterful user of frames, which is what the democratic party desperately needs. We have been out "framed" by republicans for decades.

I believe that Obama actually believes in the possibility of a more united american electorate, and when he speaks of unity, he does so in a way that beings this re-framing process. He eloquently talks about center-left democratic ideas and gets the public to listen - on both sides of the spectrum, and as they start to become interested, he not only successfully shows how such ideas are really good for all american and in the countries best interest, but also gently plants the seed into the minds of the people that oh, by the way, this is what democrats have always been about.

I support Obama because I believe we need a George Lakoff candidate who has the eloquence and the appealing personality to begin to create a cultural shift in ideology and a deconstruction of political language that has been defined by the hard right for too long. His policies will be moderate, but the purpose of his presidency will be to re-frame public debate, and work with Howard Dean to deliver that message to 50 states, and work with Dean to elect a new generation of democrats into the party - democrats who are also of the George Lakoff stripe, who can continue to facilitate a language change in the public and lay the foundation where more progressive Democratic candidates would be tolerated.

I see the same policy positions in Hillary Clinton, but I see nothing in her political philosophy that I would characterize as being a Lakoff candidate, and nothing in her political philosophy that reflects any interest in re-framing the political discussion and transforming the party - Clinton to me represents politics as usual. Maybe the next four or eight years under Clinton would a little bit better than the last eight years, but in the end absolutely nothing about the political culture and climate would substantially change, and thus there would be no ability to introduce the next level of more progressive dialog into the political mainstream.

[virtualobserver]

86. very well put......but do you acknowledge the possibility that he could evolve into much more?

[Political Heretic]

95. I do. I also acknowledge the possibility that he could become a lot less.

It's possible. There's really no way to remove all risk when you finally decide on a candidate to support. You just have to do your best to be informed, then make your choice and work and hope for the best.

[HopeforChange]

84. It's not that he is so perfect, it is that Clinton is so very imperfect to put it mildly. n/t

[Writer]

85. Indeed!

We have replaced irrational fear with irrational exuberance. Neither is healthy for our nation.

I understand why we would be in that state, however, after all that we've witnessed during the Bush Administration. Through the veil I see a relatively young man with an enormous gift of the tongue. However, under pressure he cracks. He cracks during debates and he cracks when he's questioned.

He speaks platitudes that sound good, but to me he doesn't demonstrate the fortitude necessary to take on the very difficult decisions a president will have to make in the coming years.

I will be fine with him in the White House, but I'm unsure of his caliber as a decision-maker, and that's why I'm not behind him this year.

~Writer~

[Lord Helmet]

87. he beats Clinton by about a mile plus you've got his political leaning completely wrong

[Life Long Dem]

89. Something I wish more Clinton supporters understood

Obama is the better candidate.

[dysfunctional press]

92. the MAIN thing to understand about an obama presidency- (or a clinton or mccain presidency)

is that there is NOT going to be the kind of substantive change that many people expect, and even more want. the corporatists are deeply entrenched and firmly in power.
schumer has already started the back-pedalling on healthcare- and we won't be out of iraq in the next president's first 4 years.

the rich and powerful don't like change all that much- it means re-figuring how to best game the system in their favour, and change can be unpredictable that way.

[Kitty Herder]

100. You're right. We have to demand change. Nobody, not Obama, not Clinton is

going to hand it to us on a silver platter.

[TragedyandHope]

98. NEWSFLASH: We all understand this

This criticism is a fantasy created of whole cloth by the anti-Obama crowd (Democrats and the RW) to disparage Obama supporters. Plain and simple.

We all know he is a fallible person who doesn't have a magic solution to everything. And guess what, we still think he will do a better job than any of his opponents.

Stop spreading this BS created by your own side, then asking us why we think what you imagine what we think (which we don't).

Thank you.

[Kitty Herder]

99. Actually, in my case, the main reason I support Obama is that I oppose Clinton. It's not

that I think Obama is that wonderful.

[bowens43]

101. blah blah blah blah

[Youphemism]

102. Okay, I'm embarrassed...

I'm starting to rethink clearing all the furniture out of my living room to make space for that giant tofu Obama statue I've been sculpting.

It almost seems silly to me now.

[rucky]

103. Tofu sculpture is anything but silly.

welcome to DU :toast:

[Youphemism]

107. Thanks for the welcome...

I'm wondering how many posts I need to reply to before I become one of the Annointed Ones who can create a thread.

Don't get me wrong. I'm sort of whining, I guess, but I don't want to contribute to recent overuse of the word "elitist."

[datopbanana]

105. Latest HRC attack: You like him too much, stop it! Like me!!!

[Vinca]

108. Something I wish more Clinton supporters understood . . .

I cannot support a person as dishonest as Hillary Clinton. The Bosnia tale, complete with video, sealed the deal. We've had a liar-in-chief for 8 years and look where it's gotten us. No more.

[Armstead]

109. Well, Duhhhhh

And the sky is blue on a sunny day.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

111. Please point me to the threads suggesting any such thing.

Thanks in advance.


Note: The "greatest thing since sliced bread/saviour" thing always seems to be projected onto Obama supporters and not the other way around.

[dbmk]

112. I think your OP painted with a bit too broad brush

But there is nothing wrong with the intent of it, and I think it was made with the best of intentions, so I recced it.

Because even if it did generalise a tad too much, it doesn't hurt to wind down a little and reflect once in a while.

I would love to see what your perception of how Hillary supporters are seeing her, btw.
Because they are seeing something I don't. Or rather seem to not see a whole lot that I see.

And I don't see many posts here that explains why. An objective voice, which you seem to strive for at least, on that would be nice.

[futureliveshere]

123. oops didnt see your comment before i made mine.

[lastliberalintexas]

137. I have to get to work so only have a minute to respond

But I wanted to try to answer your question as best I can. I see many Clinton supporters as being too heavily invested to admit that her campaign is over. Many of them have been presidential supporters of hers for at least a year or two and it's hard for them to let that dream die. From different perspectives probably, but I see the same thing with them that I saw with many of my fellow Dean supporters in 04, especially those of us who had wanted him to run from 2002 after the Iraq vote. It's hard to let go, and I wish Obama supporters could be a little more understanding as a whole (most are, just a few notable exceptions here and in real life). At the same time, I wish the Clinton supporters would stop attacking him rather than supporting their candidate.


I admit that I am probably harder on Obama supporters than Clinton folks at this point, just because I tend to have too much sympathy for the underdog. But I must also say that my sympathy lies more with them than the Obama supporters because it SHOULD be easier to be a gracious winner than a gracious loser. Losing hurts, whether it's you or your candidate on the line, and for the time being I write off many of their posts and real life encounters as part of the grieving process. A year or so ago I did not have any much sympathy for them, and even was called a Hillary Hater- but I admit I do for now.

Thanks for the civil discussion, even if I may have (unintentionally) used too broad a brush. :)

[ClassWarrior]

114. You're right. I've said all along that he merely represents an OPPORTUNITY...

...for Progressives.

CUNY Professor Frances Fox Piven on a recent Democracy Now!:

You know, in 1932, FDR didn’t run with a good program; he ran with the same program the Democrats had run with in 1924 and 1928, and that wasn’t a good program. But nevertheless, his rhetoric encouraged people who were suffering as a result of the Depression—working people, the unemployed—and helped to fuel the movements, which then forced FDR to support initiatives which he otherwise would not have supported, including the right to organize...

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/2/6/super_tuesday_roundtable_with_bill_fletcher

NGU.

[Stop Cornyn]

117. In my view, Obama is the third best candidate to enter the race, but the best candidate who remains.

[SoonerPride]

118. WHO FUCKING SAID HE WAS INFALLIBLE??

I'm so tired of people accusing those who support Obama of being delusional or stupid.

No candidate is perfect.

But he is a hell of a lot more open, honest, intelligent and inspiring than any candidate I've had to choose from and I'm 42 years old.

[ClassWarrior]

121. They believe their own spin. Scary.

NGU.

[futureliveshere]

122. I think you are painting with too broad a brush. Most of us are WELL AWARE of that.

I don't think he is the messiah or the second coming. He is just a very decent man, and his views on what is important and what should be America's role in the world resonates with me.

Thats all.

Oh and he is a damn good orator, which after Chimpy, Bomber McConfused and Lady of the Cackles is worth its weight in gold.

[Steely_Dan]

125. Amazing...

You post a very reasonable comment on "some" Obama supporters and you get attacked mercilessly.

Pretty much what I expected...passion over-riding reason

-P

[JAbuchan08]

126. I realize this and have recognized it for a while, yet I will still defend him voiceferously

I realize that he has bought into a lot of right-wing frames similar to Clinton, I just hope that he hasn't internalized them to the extent that she has.

She has disqualified herself from my vote as far as I'm concerned. If the Supers throw the nomination to her I will exercise a little tough love and place my vote elsewhere.,

[Freedom Train]

127. Astute observations

But there's just no getting through to those Obama supporters who have already completely lost grasp of logic and reason. They are themselves the biggest obstacle we have to winning this year, with either candidate.

[Raffi Ella]

128. "He isn't revolutionary or even really new"

His campaign is a Duval redux let's not forget. And even Rev. Wright just came out and SAID "He does what a Politicians gotta do, says what a Politicians gotta say" - He's a POLITICIAN, a rather slick one at that...


His supporter's have been likened to bushbots in their absolute blind support...that, in my opinion, is not good, not good at all.

[krkaufman]

132. "if I could ignore many of his supporters"

This says more about you than it does his supporters, especially if referring to those on online forums. Have you volunteered at an Obama campaign office? What exposure have you had to any real world Obama supporters, or, more importantly, to the campaign?

[ClassWarrior]

134. The whole premise of this thread is based on the fact that the OP doesn't...

...pay attention to Obama supporters. Otherwise the OP wouldn't be believing his/her own spin.

NGU.

[Reader Rabbit]

135. Obama supporters might be more inclined to listen to you...

...if you didn't make sweeping generalizations about an incredibly diverse group of individuals. I'm not an Obama supporter (or a Clinton supporter), but you probably aren't going to persuade any of them when you are making a blanket statement that they are naive and uninformed.

[lumberjack_jeff]

138. The "create a logo" thing is a metaphor for his campaign.

Supporters get access to the semi-blank slate onto which they can project their own aspirations. If they like the result, they can then donate money to it.

http://logobama.com/

[ClassWarrior]

139. Yes, you get it! Like FDR, according to the experts...

CUNY Professor Frances Fox Piven on a recent Democracy Now!:

You know, in 1932, FDR didn’t run with a good program; he ran with the same program the Democrats had run with in 1924 and 1928, and that wasn’t a good program. But nevertheless, his rhetoric encouraged people who were suffering as a result of the Depression—working people, the unemployed—and helped to fuel the movements, which then forced FDR to support initiatives which he otherwise would not have supported, including the right to organize...

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/2/6/super_tuesday_roundtable_with_bill_fletcher

NGU.

[earth mom]

141. What bothers me is how so many DUers think it's okay that Obama wants to ki$$ rethuglican a$$.

Obama even said something about how he admired Reagan! Like gag me, totally! :puke:

And to ignore Rezko, Wright and Ayres as the Obama nuts do?! :wtf:


I agree that lots of people are in for a hard fall IF-and that's a BIG IF- Obama is elected.

Only then they will see just how self serving, corporate and to the right Obama really is!

[mudesi]

142. You what he is, though? HE IS THE NOMINEE

Are Clinton supporters ever going to accept that?

[LWolf]

146. He is not the nominee,

and I am not a Clinton supporter.

If and when he gets that magic number of delegates, he will be the nominee.

I, for one, hope it doesn't happen.

Not for him, not for HRC.

[Avalux]

147. I wish people wouldn't make generalizations about Obama supporters.

I understand your point, but most of us are not walking around in some sort of euphoric trance. I've been politically active for years and consider myself very knowledgeable. I do not think Obama is a savior; I think he is the best candidate to stop the bleeding in this country. He may fail miserably because he's going to have a hell of a lot of work to do, but I'm willing to take that chance.

[VotesForWomen]

148. exactly, but part of being in a cult is that you think your leader is the Messiah.

[Hepburn]

150. No, Obama is NOT perfect, far from it, and he was not my first choice.

However, Hillary Clinton, IMO is a lying piece of whine-bag shit that makes Obama look wonderful in comparison.

JMHO

[SammyWinstonJack]

151. He isn't the "best our party has been able to proffer this year.."

Not by a long shot.

The disappoint quotient of an Obama presidency will be incredible.

Big time!