Why don't people want the primary process to play out? Are you afraid of LOSING?

[chimpymustgo]

This thing is close, and voters in a number of states HAVE NOT HAD A CHANCE TO VOTE YET. This is un-American to call for an end now. All the whining has to STOP.

Paul Krugman - yeah, I know, he's under the bus with many Obama supporters for not falling in line - but he's still speaking truth to power from down there. His column today is a MUST READ AND MUST THING ABOUT. He raises some issues MANY Democrats are concerned about - AND ESPECIALLY WHAT THEY WILL MEAN FOR THE GENERAL ELECTION.

Let's take a deep breath, stop the name-calling and vilification - let the candidates continue to make their case - and let the voters continue to decide.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/25/opinion/25krugman.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

-snip-
A few months ago the Obama campaign was talking about transcendence. Now it’s talking about math. “Yes we can” has become “No she can’t.”

-snip -

Well, now he has an overwhelming money advantage and the support of much of the Democratic establishment — yet he still can’t seem to win over large blocs of Democratic voters, especially among the white working class.

As a result, he keeps losing big states. And general election polls suggest that he might well lose to John McCain.

-snip-

But how negative has the Clinton campaign been, really? Yes, it ran an ad that included Osama bin Laden in a montage of crisis images that also included the Great Depression and Hurricane Katrina. To listen to some pundits, you’d think that ad was practically the same as the famous G.O.P. ad accusing Max Cleland of being weak on national security.

It wasn’t. The attacks from the Clinton campaign have been badminton compared with the hardball Republicans will play this fall. If the relatively mild rough and tumble of the Democratic fight has been enough to knock Mr. Obama off his pedestal, what hope did he ever have of staying on it through the general election?

-snip -

Tellingly, the Obama campaign has put far more energy into attacking Mrs. Clinton’s health care proposals than it has into promoting the idea of universal coverage.

During the closing days of the Pennsylvania primary fight, the Obama campaign ran a TV ad repeating the dishonest charge that the Clinton plan would force people to buy health insurance they can’t afford. It was as negative as any ad that Mrs. Clinton has run — but perhaps more important, it was fear-mongering aimed at people who don’t think they need insurance, rather than reassurance for families who are trying to get coverage or are afraid of losing it.

No wonder, then, that older Democrats continue to favor Mrs. Clinton.

The question Democrats, both inside and outside the Obama campaign, should be asking themselves is this: now that the magic has dissipated, what is the campaign about? More generally, what are the Democrats for in this election?

-snip-

[rpannier]

1. Let it play out

In the end, I'm fairly sure he'll be the nominee

[ScarletSniper]

5. he will be the nominee and I'd say it's almost over...hallelujah..play it out June 6 is near

[JoFerret]

84. So relax. Enjoy

.

[Tesha]

2. The way Hillary is "playing it", we're more and more likely to lose *IN NOVEMBER*...

...when it really counts.

Tesha

[flpoljunkie]

3. Obama has no problem with letting people vote in all the remaining primaries. What we all have

problems with is letting this drag out to the convention when the numbers are not there for Hillary Clinton--risking both the desruction of our party and, of course, our chance to beat John McCain in November.

[Triana]

46. BINGO. Heck. She could withdraw NOW and those states could still have their..

...primary and leave her on the ballot. She'd still get the votes - but she wouldn't get the nom whether she keeps on, or not - UNLESS The Clintons manage to get the rules changed for themselves, and bully, buy, or threaten the DNC and the SDs and PDs or otherwise CHEAT the process and th system - which I wouldn't put past them (she is, after all, a Republican running on a Dem ticket) - and which would FURTHER damage the party AND the process AND our chances of winning IN NOVEMBER.

She needs to get over herself. And the sooner the better.

[LWolf]

87. So please explain to this primary voter,

who doesn't vote until next month, what the point of voting is, if there is only one candidate still in the race?

Is it supposed to be a consolation prize for not having a voice in the primary selection? "You get to vote even though it won't matter!"

:eyes:

[Warren Stupidity]

4. It is already played out.

Clinton cannot win through the primary system, she has already lost that race. Am I afraid of losing? Yes I am afraid of having our party so fractured by the divisive Clinton kitchen sink strategy that we lose in November. I think it would be a good idea for Clinton to suspend her 2012 campaign right now so we can focus on 2008.

[chimpymustgo]

7. But Obama hasn't won it either through the primary system - and maybe he won't.

We need to bring the hate-level down, and let this play out.

[Warren Stupidity]

33. There is no maybe about it her will end up witth

more pledged delegates than Clinton. The contest for pledged delegates is over: Obama will end up with more pledged delegates than Clinton. So it isn't really about the primaries any more. Clinton should make that clear to her supporters rather than leading them on like this.

[greenvpi]

57. And the maybe he won't part...

is why he is fighting to try to make our votes not count! It's disgusting. Of course it is is best if he is our candidate in November, but he needs to start acting like he represents us rather than rules us.

[GOTV]

63. What has Obama done to make your vote not count?

Is it Obama encouraging SDs to overturn the pledged delegates who represent your votes?

Is it Obama trying to seat delegates from sham elections in MI and FL?

Is it Obama saying only big states matter?

[greenvpi]

71. Obama doesn't respect people from FL or MI

It's as simple as that. So are you saying you support his decision that people from those two states are subhuman and don't have the right to vote?

[GOTV]

74. Evidence? You must have a link where Obama called anyone "subhuman". Let's see it n/t

[GOTV]

75. Where'd you go? You make a laughably false claim and then run when called on it?

[greenvpi]

82. GOTV, why lie about it?

I never said Obama said that. Why are you claiming that Obama said that?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

6. People are afraid of having it go to the convention and then having three months

to throw together a presidential campaign while McCain gets a free pass for six months.

I really really hope it doesn't go much past the end of voting. But since Clinton cannot win the pledged delegate vote and can only win by getting the SDs to overturn the pledged delegate vote, it is looking like it might go to the convention. That will not be good for the party.

[REACTIVATED IN CT]

60. More like 2 months since the convention

is at the end of August and the election is in early November.

IMO this is the biggest issue about letting it play out.

[Vinca]

8. Yes, I'm afraid of losing the general election because we're spending

time that should be used to go after McCain, stroking the Clinton egos. All I can figure is she wants to end up the only candidate.

(Editing out my inflammatory comment. I shouldn't always write what is running through my mind.)

[cboy4]

11. Are you seriously going to stand by your RFK comment?

That's atrocious. :thumbsdown:

[Vinca]

17. I probably shouldn't have said it, but I doubt I'm the only one thinking it.

She's waiting for something to happen to Obama. A white love child or something. It doesn't make sense for her to continue knowing it will take foolishly high wins in each and every remaining state for her to win the nomination. Her only chance is the SDs, which isn't going to happen because they know what would happen to all the new voters and black voters, or for Obama to be out of the race. If she's staying in because she's delusional, I suppose that's another matter.

[Bluenorthwest]

53. What about Ted Kennedy?

The real Kennedy in question is Obama's big 'pass the torch' endorsor Teddy Kennedy. Teddy refused to run when asked twice, then he chose to run against a sitting Democratic President, Jimmy Carter. Kennedy took it to the Convention where he tried to get delegates to switch their votes. Carter led the delegate count by 980 or so, the popular vote going in was 51.13% for Carter and 37.58 for Teddy K. Now that is a wide gap, and Kennedy did not give up until day two of the Convention.
Perhaps Obama surrogate Teddy Kennedy would like to explain why it was cool for him in 1980, with a huge margin, to continue to Convention, and why Hillary should not. I'd listen to Ted, as he is thus far the Democrat who most viciously opposed a sitting Democratic President, dispite Jimmy's large lead.

[DemVet]

12. No.

This process will not hurt the party.

The primary season was planned to be this long.

The Convention is not planned until August.

The traditional campaigning for POTUS will begin in earnest AFTER the convention.

There is plenty of time to go after McCain after the convention...otherwise, the American public gets tired of the whole process.

[chimpymustgo]

19. I'm alerting on this. You should be ashamed and ask that be removed, too. Disgusting.

[Jamastiene]

38. You shouldn't even be thinking that much less saying it.

That's very uncouth.

[bowens43]

9. It has played out, hillary lost.

Now she is fighting to ensure a McCain victory in November so that she can run in 2012.

[chascarrillo]

10. If Krugman thinks that Clinton's OBL ad is okay, then yeah, he should be thrown under the bus.

That defense of Clinton is so irrational, it's embarrassing,

[boobooday]

21. I know, and then using, "well, the GOP is MUCH MUCH worse!"

I'm really disappointed in Krugman.

[cboy4]

13. If Obama is the nominee and loses in November, it will not

be because the Democratic Party didn't have a few more months to go after McCain.

I'm amazed that people really believe that.

Actually, I don't think most people really believe that. It's more of a slogan now.

[rodeodance]

14. Rec******

[sandnsea]

15. It is not close, that is just wrong

She will win WV and KY. He will win NC, OR, MT, SD and is likely to win IN.

Where does she get more delegates than his?

You say you want everyone to vote - when you know full well the only way she can win is for the superdelegates to nullify those votes.

This is over and it's damn time for her supporters to face the truth.

[Uben]

18. **yawn**

Same shit, different day.

[sandnsea]

22. Face the truth so we can beat McCain n/t

[Uben]

26. What truth?

That this election is very close? That neither candidate can win with pledged delegates? That DU is not representative of America?

Who's not facing the truth? Aint me, bud.

[sandnsea]

32. That nullifying the vote

is the only way she can win. So don't tell me how much you care about the vote.

[Uben]

47. Nullifying what vote?

I honestly don't know what you're talking about. There is only one vote that is pertinent at this point, and that is the vote of the super delegates.

[chimpymustgo]

27. Sandnsea, can you give me the lottery numbers for the Powerball, too?

[sandnsea]

31. It's math, not clairvoyance

People HATE HER. I don't remember where you live - but people in the west hate her fucking guts. She is not going to win MT, SD or OR. She just isn't. She certainly isn't going to win with 70% of the vote. What is it about math that you just won't accept. SHE LOST. It's over. It's been over since she lost, yes lost, Texas. She's only won the delegates in 12 states, the rest have either tied or Obama won. Are you telling me we're going to appoint her the nominee based on 14 states? She lost.

[rodeodance]

36. "People HATE HER."--WRONG!! Nearly half the voters have debunked your lie.

[chimpymustgo]

39. Maybe we let the people actually CAST their votes before you CALL the race. Just saying.

You guys are killing me...

[sandnsea]

40. So she can nullify those votes??

She can't win any other way so don't sit here and tell me you give a shit about those votes. It's a damn lie.

[Warren Stupidity]

37. No he can't. But he can tell you with quite reasonable certainty: you lost.

[ima_sinnic]

16. "play out," or destroy the Democratic Party? she forgets whose team she's on

--they could take it all the way to August for all I'd care, if she had any class. Instead of showing how she could beat McCain, all she does is play on people's fears and ignorance about race, about Muslims, about class, etc. by sliming Obama, giving the repukes plenty of ammunition against the person we all know is going to be the nominee.

If she had any class and was truly a Democrat, she'd defend such "issues" as "bitter" (which she herself started by sending one of her goons around to listen for "dirt' to spin, a molehill that could be made into a mountain) by saying, yes, The People have a reason to be bitter, but here's what I'm going to do about it. Instead, she uses it as an occasion to ridicule and demean her fellow Democrat. "As far as she knows," Obama is not a Muslim, and I know she capitalized on the Wright "issue." She could have said, I know Senator Obama, like me, is a person of strong faith, but where is McCain's loyalty when he listens to people like Rev. Hagee? She's a fucking traitorous, treacherous slimeball who should just join the republican party and get it over with.

and get a clue card: primaries are not "democratic"--it's a party thing. People like me, who wanted first Kucinich and then Edwards, were "denied" the "right" to vote for them--and the MSM is strongly to blame for that--they anointed Obama and Clinton as the candidates. They didn't even acknowledge Edwards' 2nd-place win in Iowa. I didn't hear one mention of it on CNN--it was all Obama and Clinton, the THIRD-PLACE winner, 24/7. After being totally marginalized, both Kucinich and Edwards, along with Biden and Richardson, had the graciousness to concede. "Graciousness" is not in HRC's vocabulary. She is despicable, and this editorial is just a DLC blow-job.

[davidpdx]

20. I have no problem with it playing out

and at this point it is doing just that. At some point, the Clinton's are going to have to concede. It is very possibly by May 21st (the day after Kentucky and Oregon) this will be over with a combination of pledged and super delegates. The three contests after that: PR, Montana and South Dakota will still vote even though the nominee will likely be decided. There's nothing undemocratic about that.

Here is the problem, on the one hand Clinton supporters are saying the super delegates are going to ride to the rescue. Then I've heard numerous Clinton supporters say, "well the super delegates don't really vote until the convention." The entire argument of Clinton winning depends on having a brokered convention if you buy the previous two often repeated lines.

At some point the super delegates are going to break one way other the other. Dean has asked them to decide by July 1st. When it happens, people need to get behind the nominee.

[barack the house]

23. Well if for Sen. Clinton we are for Sen. Clinton nuking Iran more lies and Rovian tactics, very nice

[barack the house]

24. Well if for Sen. Clinton we are for nuking Iran more lies and Rovian tactics, very nice

[Spider Jerusalem]

25. This thing is NOT close; it is for all intents and purposes OVER.

Senator Clinton has a delegate deficit which she cannot hope to make up.

[Uben]

28. If you're talking pledged delgates....

...that was over some time ago...neither can win that one. There is no rule or precedent set that the candidate that comes closest wins. The only thing that is over is your argument!

[chimpymustgo]

29. Ding ding ding!!! This ain't HORSESHOES!!

[Spider Jerusalem]

35. No, it;'s a race for delegates, and Obama has more of them.

And will have more of them, by probably 100-150, when the primaries are over. The 'close isn't good enough' argument applies to one candidate: Hillary Clinton.

[Spider Jerusalem]

30. Shall I provide a list of quotes from superdelegates...

who have said they will support whoever leads the pledged delegate race come 3 June? Because there are quite a few of them. Your supposition that it will be otherwise is arrant twaddle.

[sandnsea]

34. Obama already won them

Unless one having more than the other isn't what winning is all about.

[DemVet]

45. And Obama will not...

...have enough delegates until the Convention. He hasn't won anything yet.

[Spider Jerusalem]

69. He'll probably have enough delegates by the first week in June if not sooner.

There've been too many people in a position to influence the outcome saying it won't go to the convention to think otherwise.

[mmonk]

41. It's not near as close as it's being spun.

Since Clinton has decided on a negative campaign instead of issue oriented campaigning, I really can't see the "good". That being said, it's entirely up to her.

[DangerDave921]

42. Hillary has a real shot still - eom

[rodeodance]

44. of course she does.

[Medusa]

43. Because we want to win the GE?

And we know that Hillary can't win?

[chimpymustgo]

48. Why don't we see which candidate can make it to the finish line - strongest?

[Triana]

50. One already has - Obama - at this point we're just hurting ourselves as

a party, and hurting our chances to win in November. It's desperate and stupid to continue. Not that Ms. HERSELF cares about what she does to the party or our chances in November. Apparently, she does not.

Nice.

Have you run the numbers on Hillary? EXPLAIN HOW she can win other than dragging this shit into the convention and then strong-arming delegates there to usurp the will of the voters and pledged delegates. DO YOU THINK that's wise or good for the party, the integrity of the process, and for our chances to win against McSame in November with only THREE MONTHS to put together a campaign against him?

Have you even THOUGHT about this? Got brain cells?

[cjsmom44]

54. Re: Obama has already won

Obama has already won this this, all this anxiety is useless...
Hillary people get over it....and move on
We have John McCain to deal with...
See Politico for further discussion...
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0408/9862.html

[Triana]

49. And dragging this charade out longer severely threatens our chances to win....

...in the GE. ESPECIALLY if it drags on to the Convention. Then, we're screwed. Not that Ms. HERSELF cares about THAT.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

51. Well said

I am not afraid.

I wish Edwards would have stuck around though. I was pretty pissed off when he left.

I am 51 - white and not voting for Clinton....

[EnviroBat]

52. Perhaps we're getting tired of the media in this country fucking the

democratic process. It's clear to all of us that the media is trying to hand the nomination to the clear loser against McCain, (reminder, that's Hillary by the way). We're also aware of the terrible influence the media has on a large populace of this country. Every passing day the bullshit spin doctors are whipping up a fresh batch of Fox-grown shit to bombard the airwaves with. Hell, some of it is not so fresh, (here comes the Rev. Wright bullshit again). Maybe we should be talking a little more about Bosnia and sniper fire, or the proposed obliteration of Iran by a bat shit crazy Clinton? There's your fucking "fair and balanced". But the traitorous RW media has it's agenda, only this time, we're wise to it.

Prop up a lame-ass Hillary for the ultimate fall against an even lamer John McCain. Long live the PNAC agenda.

[cjsmom44]

55. RE: Yup I agree

So true
Even Politico (surprising considering they are so pro Hillary)
said all this worry is nutty...
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0408/9862.html

[MannyGoldstein]

56. Why Does OxyRush Want The Process To Continue?

Think hard.

[chimpymustgo]

58. I don't spend any of my time listening to, or thinking about OxyRush. I do want to have the

strongest, best Democratic nominee. Play on.

[MannyGoldstein]

59. Doesn't It Disturb You That You Agree With OxyRush?

Doesn't it make you wonder just a little bit as to whether it makes sense for the certain loser to keep trying to destroy the certain winner?

[chimpymustgo]

61. I don't give a shit about him. You tell me why voters in NC, IN, WVA, et al should be shut out?

There are down-ticket races. What is the matter with YOU?

[newmajority]

86. If Hillary had the results she PAID for, this would have been over on Feb 5

Would you have complained about all the states being "shut out" then, or would you be telling us all to kiss the ass of Her Royal Imperial Highness?

[Orsino]

67. Pity. He has your answer.

The only good reasons for Dems to want to end the primary now are to focus on campaigning against McCain ASAP and to avoid damaging the Democratic Party in the meantime. I don't see the same urgency others do, but these are factors and loyal Democrat should already have in mind.

You should therefore never have had to ask the question in your OP, but I understand that you were sniping rather than seriously inquiring.

[book_worm]

62. that would be fine if Hillary would pledge to get out of the race after June 3

when it will still be abundantly clear she still won't take Obama over in popular vote, pledged delegates or states won. But No, she will want to keep going no matter what.

[eridani]

64. Clinton's constant parroting of Rethug framing will cause either her or Obama to lose

She never, ever questions the right of Rethugs to define both Dem candidates.

[SeaLyons]

65. K&R

[symbolman]

66. Why won't people keep their stupid mouths shut?

are they afraid of drowning in their own bullshit?

Makes as much sense as you people do..

They all complain about sexism while Killery rapes the system with lies and distortions.. She couldn't have Joined Obama in taking McCain to task, both kicking his ass and being chosen by the voters for their Heroism, no, she had to drag the country through the gutter, just like her husband did..

[TragedyandHope]

68. I am fine with having all the rest of the Primaries play out

However, I am absolutely certain that had the candidates positions been reversed or if any other person other than Hillary Clinton was in her position, they would have graciously withdrawn from the race or been rightly eased out by the party leadership. The only reason Hillary is still in the race is because people are afraid of stepping on the Clinton legacy and fear the wrath of denying her entitlement. (See Bill Richardson.)

Any other candidate would have conceded with dignity by now, for the good of the party and the good of the country. By staying in the race, she shows that she has other personal priorities which take precedence over the the good of the country and putting a Democrat in the White House.

[my3boyz]

70. Because it is over mathematically. Clinton can't win. nt

[JNelson6563]

72. I've got no problem with it.

I too was an Edwards supporter (I'm guessint hat by the fab pic in your sig-line). I lean Obama nowadays but have no problem with every state getting to vote. I also have no problem with counting MI & FLA as the votes were cast and counting everyone at convention.

Julie

[chimpymustgo]

83. Julie, thanks for that reasoned and reasonable response. I agree MI & FLA should be counted.

[Occam Bandage]

73. Yes. To John McCain. I'd rather focus on taking out him.

[harun]

76. If Hillary wasn't race baiting all the time I would say it is better for

motivating voters to keep her in it. Constant race baiting and untruth's is hurting the image of the Democratic party. Which has a good image right now compared to the Republicans. When people see Hillary's story ever week change on it's the voters, it's the delegates, it's Michigan, it's about Superdelagates, etc. people lose motivation.

[Stop Cornyn]

77. The primary process HAS played out. What remains of the calendar is time set aside for the loser to

Hector the nominee at great expense that would otherwise be invested in winning in November.

When a candidate loses by 10% of the vote, do we have to have a re-count in order to say that the primary process has played itself out? No.
Neither do we have to continue the process when it is mathematically unlikely (extremely unlikely) for one candidate to win.

If the loser was conducting a campaign without tearing down the certain nominee, it would be a mere farce (like the last weeks of Huckabee's campaign), but I cannot condone the loser running a hate-mongering campaign against the nominee after the race is over except for the victory lap.

[goletian]

78. not to hillary, she has already lost the nomination - nt

[shayes51]

79. Sure, the Obama folks are afraid of losing.

They want Hillary to hand it to him on a silver platter.

[Spazito]

80. I keep wondering re Super Tuesday and the Clinton campaign...

We know the Clinton campaign put their bet on winning on Super Tuesday, they spent their funds based on that bet. If Clinton had won Super Tuesday as they had hoped, do you think the Clinton campaign would be saying "Let it go to convention" and "The voters in all the States should have the right to cast their votes before anyone says this is over". I suspect not but would be interested in your take on this.

[ampad]

81. Why are people willing to let it play out

Is it because they know their candidate has no mathematical way of winning this election this year so they are trying to give her a chance in 2012? It is called the math and there is no mathematical way for her to win. Anyone who claims any type of intelligence who says there is a way for her is lying out their mouths. You want this to go to the convention with clowns like Rush planing to incite riots? Do you really want this to get nasty at the convention with chimpy in the white house salivated to declare some type of martial law? Were any of you saying this when we got Kerry, fight to the end? Some of you act as if this happens every time we come up to nominate a Dem to run. It doesn't happen every time, the race going on this far hasn't happened in a long time so stop trying to say it does. This isn't about Hillary or her supporters anymore even though you try to make it about the people the reality is it is about you getting your way at all cost, like a bunch of children. We need to get in there and get at McCain yesterday. That idiot is running around saying and doing whatever he pleases while we have two candidates and only one candidate that is ahead and will continue to be ahead.

This OP is nothing but whining as usual from you Hillary supporters. Obama has attacked Hillary's health care proposal, really? It's called a damn election in which candidate attack the others policies. I think it's better to attack your opponent policies oppose to attacking your opponents freaking patriotism for gods sakes!

No what is un-American is staying in a race you have no mathematical chance of winning and bringing down the nominee. What is un-American is trying to set yourself up for a run in 2012 at the cost of the entire party and the country. I swear some of you would be happy to see McCain instead of Obama. When McCain decides to do exactly zero about the economy, health care, the growing environmental problems, starts a war in Iran, increase troop numbers in Iraq, gives more tax cuts to the rich, elects a couple of right wing judges to the supreme court, what will you say? Oh I know your gonna blame it on the young folks, your gonna blame it on Hussein Obama because he just wouldn't move over after Super Tuesday and allow the queen to be anointed. Sometimes I wish Obama would just drop out and let the cry baby and her cry baby supporters have their way, let you have the nomination because she will never get into the oval office. Not with negative in the 50's and eroding support from African Americans.


Oh yea btw, someone tell Krugman that the big state myth has been debunked eight ways to Sunday, geesh! If you want to talk about winning election; I wish he would write an editorial on just how can Clinton win this year without the support of African Americans?You can talk about old white people all you want but since he went there lets talk about the most loyal of the Dem party and how Hillary will sit with them with all the race baiting crap from her campaign. I know, I know, it's popular nowadays to brush off African Americans. African Americans are waiting for the dem party to throw them under because if it were to happen that voting block is gone for at least a generation. How will dems win without their support?


Oh yea never was a Krugman fan so you can keep that throwing under the bus meme :eyes:

[mmonk]

85. The general election. I can't make someone see what they can't

allow themselves to see.