What Hillary is doing is the result of brilliant political strategy.

[King Coal]

I don’t condone it, I don’t like, but I have to admire and respect it. This tactic of hers has got Bill written all over it. It is not nearly as dirty as an approach Rove would take, but it is still kind of shady.

It is really quite simple. If Hillary wins the nomination, she will still get the votes from the Democrats, because there is no way they would vote for McCain. But her behavior will attract votes from many republicans because of her hawkish attitude toward Iran. She will also benefit from Republican voters holding a race card. She knows she will get all of the Democrats’ votes, so she is taking them for granted and going after Republican voters.

Nobody ever said Bill Clinton was stupid. He’s not. He is way ahead of almost everyone else.

[olkaz]

Clever Evil is not better than Dumb Evil

In fact, it's worse.

I loathe opportunists, and this type of thing is what finally turned me against Hillary last year.

[CBGLuthier]

1. Oh no, they are most certainly not stupid

A couple of assholes, one of whom seems to be an armageddon-enabler.

But they are smart assholes that is for sure.

[LakeSamish706]

4. Probably more like Republican assholes than Democratic assholes though, No? n/t

[Straight Shooter]

I'm going to disagree.

I think sometimes Bill Clinton is waaaaay stupid. :(

[Yurovsky]

53. Stupid? No, but displays bouts of HORRIBLE judgement ...

and that is the tragedy of WJC. He could have done a million great things with the amount of support he enjoyed through most of his presidency. But he squandered that goodwill and "triangulated" his way to a presidency that only a DLC True Believer could consider exceptional. By alienating a significant portion of the progressive base, and enraging the Jesus freaks with his Oval Office intern antics, he helped ensure (along with the SCOTUS) that Chimpy would make the election of 2000 close enough to steal.

I'll always think of the Clinton administration in terms of what might have been. Granted, it was light years better than Chimpy's, but it could have been historic (a la Roosevelt or Kennedy).

[GarbagemanLB]

2. "She will get all the Democrats' votes"......

Yeah, no.

If there is any perception of a stolen nomination, then you can count out AAs, the youth, and the activist base. I wonder what sort of numbers Nader would get in such a scenario.

Throw in her high negatives and the fact that many independents and Republicans LOATHE her....yeah, I'd say it would be a suicide mission for the Democratic party.

[LakeSamish706]

7. It will be more than AA's that she can count out... There is no way in hell I would vote for her. n/

[knixphan]

72. count out AAs, the youth, and the activist base

seconded.

[Hepburn]

94. Count me out, too....

...white, over-educated female, approching 60 years of age very rapidly.

I will not vote for her in the GE because, frankly, I see no difference between her and McCain. To me, she is just as RW as he is...and some times on some issues, I cannot tell the difference between the two of them.

I will either pass voting on the top of the ticket or write in Obama if Hillary is our nominee.

[proud2BlibKansan]

3. She is also a narcissist

Which helps move her along without feeling guilty about destroying the Democratic party.

[high density]

5. No, this is definitely just the plain old kitchen sink "see what sticks" strategy

Because the real "strategy" was to coast on the inevitability of HRC and wrap up the nomination on Super Tuesday. I don't give them any credit on strategy when they're just making up crap as they go along.

[King Coal]

10. If she gets the nomination will you vote for her?

[high density]

20. Begrudgingly

Even though my negative opinion of her is increasing daily, I still think she would put better people on the Supreme Court than John McCain.

[King Coal]

31. I feel the same way. I have never liked her.

[book_worm]

6. brilliant! the former First Lady, wife of a popular Dem President and two term US Senator

being upset by a young first term Senator. Brilliant strategy.

[LoZoccolo]

8. If she gets the nomination, it will likely be due to superdelegates, Michigan and/or Ohio.

This will alienate at least some voters, not just from her, but from the Democratic Party long-term, and from the election in general short-term, which will impact other Democratic candidates' races.

[cali]

9. You and I have a very different view of "brilliant"

First of all, she's alienating SDs. That strikes me as the furthest thing from brilliant. Secondly, if Bill is so up on it, how come Hillary ran such a poor campaign?

[King Coal]

22. We also have a different view of "civility". Have you ever been the furthest thing from it?

Yep.

[cali]

28. there was nothing uncivil about my post. Yours on the other hand

was simply an uncivil attack on me- something you seem to feel compelled to do at every opportunity. Rather sad actually. I'm sorry you have such a reservoir of animosity.

[King Coal]

29. Cali, do you honestly think you are civil. You are always, always rude.

If you don't believe me, go back and take a look at all of your posts.

[cali]

45. sometimes I am and other times I'm not. I certainly wasn't in the

post you attacked me on. What was uncivil about it. I simply disagreed with you. I didn't deride you in any way or call you a name or anything else. I simply disagreed with you and YOU attacked me personally. That is uncivil. Or do you simply not have to follow the rules of civility that seem so important to you?

[King Coal]

51. Not sometimes. Always. You don't know any other way.

[cali]

59. I wasn't in least bit uncivil in my initial or subsequent posts in your thread.

you have been. you attacked me for no reason. disgustingly uncivil behavior and you have the nerve to dishonestly accuse me of what YOU are guilty of? That's just cognitive dissonance.

[King Coal]

66. See whay I mean? You are always snarky and snotty. But, it's not too late for you to change, Cali.

If you want to.

[cali]

79. let me put this bluntly. I think you're

playing silly little games, and that you are not a paragon of civility. And you clearly are culpable of attacking me for incivility in this thread, when I have not been uncivil. I made a comment germane to your OP. It wasn't rude. It wasn't uncivil. It wasn't snarky. Perhaps it's simply that you couldn't cogently respond to what I wrote or that you simply can't get over the grudge you bear me, but you attacked me completely wrongly for something I obviously didn't do.

It's probably too late for you to change.

[King Coal]

89. You just keep proving me right. Why do you have to be so snotty all the time?

I'll be watching you, and I hope you will change. Because you know I'm right.

[FrenchieCat]

11. Her strategy is about as good as her strategy to vote yeah on Iraq

thinking that it would help her politically.

And her super Tuesday strategy.

How did that work out for her?

[RoadRage]

16. You're forgetting her financial strategy.. "It'll all be over by Super Tuesday - spend away"....

Crap. Now I have to loan myself $5,000,000. Crap... now I still don't have enough money to pay my staffers. I can't wait until she's in charge of the Federal Budget... :eyes:

[splat]

12. Actually, it's got Hill written all over it; she's smarter than he is

How telling that you should credit the woman's success to the man, with no facts at all.

[King Coal]

35. Sorry, but Hillary is not that smart. God, look at her.

Bill, is the brains. And I say that as a philogynist.

[splat]

39. 'Look at her'? Sorry, sexist bull; she's the Wellesley valedictorian

[King Coal]

40. If she is so smart, why does she cackle at every question she has a problem with?

That is the behavior of persons in over their head.

[splat]

41. Obama stammers when he doesn't like the questions -- over his head, too?

[King Coal]

42. We are not talking about Obama. We are talking about HRC.

[splat]

43. You lose

[King Coal]

52. Well, I didn't splat.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

13. Kinda' like saying that Tony Soprano whacking his enemies was brilliant strategy.

Effective, maybe, but somewhat questionable ethically.

[NatBurner]

18. whacking allies, even

[RoadRage]

14. I Disagree - she's not going to get about 1/3 of the Dem Vote..

And I have still yet to meet a Republican who will vote for her OVER McCain. McCain will attack Iran if neccessary. Those who hold the "race" card, also are likely to hold the "gender" card.. why vote for a white woman when you can just keep voting for a white man?

Nope.. Republicans have been lining up and salivating to vote against her for almost 2 years now.. there is NOTHING she could say or do at this point to get them to vote for her.

However, she's become very good at getting many democrats (including myself) to vow to never vote for her. She can have every white woman over 60 show up at the polls in November - but that's not going to get her elected.

[snooper2]

15. a month or two ago I would have still voted for her...

not any more...done ....done with Hillary INC.

[wileedog]

17. Republicans will never vote for a Clinton

She can talk about nuking about Iran until the end of time, they are not going to let her and Bill anywhere near the White House again without a tour guide.

[juajen]

57. That simply isn't true. I have at least three siblings, staunch conservative

republicans, who are voting for Hillary. They've had it with Bush lies, and think Obama is a joke.

[RaleighNCDUer]

67. In case you haven't noticed, BUSH IS NOT RUNNING. nt

[Terran]

19. The flaw...

is assuming ALL Democrats will vote for her in the aftermath of a what can only be described as a slash-and-burn approach to the nomination. Personally, I'm beginning to see John McCain as a much nicer person than HRC. Doesn't mean I think he's a good choice for the Presidency, but you get the idea. If I see it that way, Democrats who are way less political than I am will vote for who they perceive as a good person.

[King Coal]

26. You would vote for a Republican? No, you wouldn't.

[Terran]

32. No, *I* wouldn't.

My point, if I need to clarify it, was that if *I* think McCain is a nicer person than HRC, then for every "me" there are probably 10,000 registered Dems who are not so ideologically committed to the party and will be happy to vote for the person they perceive as more likeable. And this is why the win-at-all costs approach could backfire, disastrously, on her campaign.

[King Coal]

36. "Probably" is the key word. And it is really "probably not."

[Terran]

38. Well, I think you are overly optimistic.

There's a big difference between the mindset that posts at DU and a great many voters out there who have no party-consciousness whatsoever. Have you never heard the phrase "Reagan Democrats"?

[RaleighNCDUer]

71. Wouldn't have to.

But there are many who will refuse to enable the DLC, and just leave the top slot blank, while voting for real democrats down ticket.

[rocktivity]

21. It would be a brilliant political strategy if she were beating Obama.

But if she loses NC and he gets at least 42% of IN, she's NOT going to "get" the nomination unless she makes a successful "sales pitch" to the superdelegates. Unless she gets her numbers closer to Obama's, she has no chance of being successful. And unless she gets at least 68% of the vote in ALL of the remaining contests, she has no chance of getting her numbers closer to Obama's.

:headbang:
rocknation

[Larkspur]

23. Hillary is destroying any chance of being a VP pick in 2008 and being Prez nominee in 2012

if Obama loses in 2008 to McCain. If she had kept her campaign more positive than negative and bowed out graciously, like Mitt Romney, after the math showed that she had little hope of winning the nomination, she could have bolstered her chances of being on the Prez ticket as VP. But no, her Tonya Harding tactics have pissed off most AA's and a lot of non-AA progressives. She's dividing the party, which is what the Republican operatives like Rupert Murdoch and Richard Mellon Scaife want. A divided Dem Party will make it easier for McCain to win.

Her Tonya Harding strategy is fracturing the Dem Party. The Clintons are narcissists and to them the Dem Party is here to server them, not us little democrats and the country.

[gkhouston]

49. another month of similar campaigning and she'll lose any chance of being elected dogcatcher. n/t

[sampsonblk]

24. If that's her strategy, its quite stupid.

1. If Clinton thinks she will still get votes from Dems "because there is no way they would vote for McCain," then she is overlookingthe fact that some will stay home because of her atrocious behavior. She may get the votes of all the Dems who vote. But her total will be much less than it should be, because she has shown such a lack of class and character in the primaries.

2. Republicans are not going to vote for Hillary Clinton. She can play hawk to impress "moderate" Democrats, but she can never out-hawk a conservative Vietnam veteran and war hero. She's just costing herself the votes of loyal activist liberals.

3. Same foolish strategy that led her to vote for the war. I was hoping she had learned from her mistake. Maybe not.

What Clinton is doing now is nothing but poisoning the waters for our party's nominee: Barack Obama.

[bowens43]

25. You're wrong of course.

It is not clear that hillary is a better choice then McCain for centrist democrats and independents absolutely will not support hillary over McCain. You're crazy if you think that hillary will get votes from republicans, they hate her more then they hate Satan himself.

[King Coal]

27. I know Republicans who have completety changed their minds about here.

"Obliterate Iran" is very appealing to them.

[wileedog]

33. Bullcrap.

If George Bush was running again and he promised Universal Health Care and to end his Iraq war would you vote for him?

Would you even believe him?

Its irrelevant anyway, she will lose if they turn over the PD vote. The AA vote alone will stay home in droves, and she can't win independents with her negatives.

[King Coal]

37. Hay and water.

"If George Bush was running again and he promised Universal Health Care and to end his Iraq war would you vote for him?"

You are making my point for me.

[RaleighNCDUer]

76. You mean the point that the republicans don't believe her

and will never vote for her, at the same time that the dem left and independents DO believe her and will never vote for her?

That point?

[Kool Kitty]

56. Then they are bigger morons than I had

originally believed they were.

[Stop Cornyn]

30. The problem with the strategy is that it suppresses the turnout level of the core party faithful.

This failed strategy is why Karl Rove is part of why has beat us with fewer voters (voter suppression and Diebold were also parts of that process).

A candidate who stands up for what the core of the party believes in inspires higher turnout among the core faithful and this boost overcomes the marginal pickup from the fence-straddling middle that might be won by appearing like a mushy middle-of-the-road candidate with no core beliefs except all things in moderation (except moderation, which will be tolerated to excess).

[mmonk]

34. You forgot alienation. I think if she convinces the SD's to go with her,

that is what will result.

[NanceGreggs]

44. This is straw-grasping ...

... on a professional level.

[King Coal]

50. But who is drowning, Nance?

How else can the Clintons' behavior be explained? The have had to plan and conspire for too long to be bumbling along without a plan of action.

[NanceGreggs]

92. The only 'plan of action' seems to be ...

... Hillary not only losing the nomination, but losing the respect of many - and her own credibility in the bargain.

The 'plan', if you will recall, was for Hillary to have the nomination "all wrapped-up" by Super Tuesday. And failing that, there was no Plan B in place.

Her entire campaign has turned into an unmitigated disaster.

"How else can the Clintons' behavior be explained?"

Simple: They're just not as "smart" as they were thought to be - or perhaps they both were at one time, and have since lost their chops in a landscape that is far different than it was when Bill was in his political prime.

[David__77]

46. But she cannot get the nomination, so this cannot work anyway.

If they were really not so stupid, they wouldn't have over-triangulated so soon. They blew it with core Democrats.

[BlooInBloo]

47. Win by.... losing! Genius!

:rofl:

[cali]

63. precisely. the OP is a gem of unintentional humor

and please note that the esteemed OP hasn't seen fit to respond to a single post on his thread that points out that she's losing and is very unlikely to be the nominee.

The' Emperor's new clothes kind of thread.

[SeaLyons]

48. She is brilliant

and will be our next President!

Madam President!

[SoCalDem]

54. Too bad for them that they F'd up and forgot they had to win more states

:rofl:

Their "victory" is that they will have slimed a transcendant candidate..and possibly crippled him for the fall election..

Despicable behavior from a former president & first lady..

The blowback is sweet though, she will be reviled for her pathetic desperation, and all his hard work at becoming "elder statesman" and remaining a beloved figure to the African American community got flushed down the old dumperoo..serves 'em right..

[BlueIdaho]

55. Politics of mutual destruction...

Not brilliant - just more of the same politics as usual.

[Medusa]

58. There's been nothing brilliant about her campaign

it's been run horribly from Day 1 and now she has to sink to Atwater/Rovian tactics to keep her head above water. That's not brilliant, it's desperation.

[Vinca]

60. Hillary can't win the general without the black vote, the new voters,

the Obama Indies and the hoards who will be pissed off to the max if she ends up the nominee without a majority of elected delegates. You hope they would vote Democratic anyway, but I don't think it's a guarantee.

[redqueen]

61. "her behavior will attract votes from many republicans " That is 10000% wrong.

Unbelievable how wrong that is.

That's up there with the wrongest things I've ever read on this site.

[King Coal]

65. Sorry, but you are not thinking. Many republicans do not like McCain at all.

And if they see Hillary as being on the right and a war monger, they will vote for her. I personally know republicans who have done a 180 on Hillary. So maybe you are up there with the "wrongest". LOL! :rofl:

[redqueen]

68. How many republicans?

I live in TX... I'm SURROUNDED by them. And while only one of them is even anywhere near being happy with McCain... they ALL still absolutely DETEST Hillary. And I'm even including Republicans who like to pretend they're liberatarians.

So... how many republicans do you know that now like Hillary, pray tell?

[King Coal]

75. Texas, huh? Hey, do ever go up to Oklahoma?

Oklahoma. Now there is a state with some history. And they have great football fans there too. Do you ever get up that way?

BTW, Texas republicans cannot be compared with republicans from other states.

But seriously, are you close to Oklahoma? What a great state.

[redqueen]

81. Pretty close actually but I don't get up there.

And heh... you may just have a point about TX republicans... *but*... most of the republicans I see every day are not from TX... they're from all over. They just came here for the jobs.

[cali]

74. ack. and you have the nerve to call yourself civil?

now how come you can't answer the many questions in this thead that are all variations on: If Bill's so brilliant, how come Hillary is losing and has such a small chance of winning the nomination?

[King Coal]

82. LOL! I really hit a nerve there, huh? That's good, though, Cali.

Now work on being nice.

Napoleon was brilliant too, and look what happened to him. Beethoven ripped of the title page of his third symphony(dedicated to Napoleon), when he heard that Napoleon declared himself emperor. I don't think Hillary has a prayer of winning. But I can see see what they are doing, and I view it as a skillful and calculated political move, however disgusting as it is. I don't think they can be as stupid as they appear, so what they have done is the result of this strategy, that has failed. So, maybe a score will be ripped up for Bill and Hillary too.

[cali]

88. blatant orwellian crap always hits a nerve

with me. And sorry, brilliance would have been engineering a forward looking, agile campaign, instead of one top heavy with entitlement and arrogance. She had every advantage walking in to this. She blew too many of them. And your clumsy and pretentious dragging in of poor old boney hardly aids your argument. And yes, smart people can be very stupid- particularly people who live in the kind of bubble that the Clintons inhabit.

[King Coal]

95. Everything, "Orwellian" (snicker, snicker) or not, hits a nerve with you.

You know, Cali, you can have fun, and be nice at the same time. Think about it. Do you think Condi Rice is happy? Do this for me: Go back and look at 50 of your last posts with an objective view. Do that, and report back.

[Life Long Dem]

62. Don't be too sure of that.

In 2000 McSame beat Bush in New Hampshire. And this year New Hampshire gave McSame the comeback. I have a feeling New Hampshire will also give it to McSame this year if Clinton steals it. Which brings another point up. Clinton can't win this without stealing it. Which means just enough voters won't vote for someone like her - who had to steal it from Obama. But I don't think she'll be able to steal it. Which means she has no brilliant strategy for this election.

[burythehatchet]

64. Dude, I think you're ready for cable news punditry!

[redqueen]

69. +1

[King Coal]

70. They couldn't afford me, Bury,

[Lord Helmet]

73. too bad she doesn't have his charm to sell it

I know lots of democrat that would never vote for her

[King Coal]

78. Yeah, me for one. I never could stand her. And I don't care that much for Bill anymore.

[Lord Helmet]

80. I liked him until he got all ugly, now the Clintons rank just above vomit

[MadHound]

77. The only thing that her strategy is brilliant about doing is deluding herself and her supporters

If she gets the nomination over the will of the delegates, over the will of the people, she is going to split the party in two. Many, many people will either stay home or go Green. In addition, with her running as president, the name Clinton will get the vote out for McCain in record numbers and she'll be swamped, badly.

This isn't brilliant strategy, this is sacrificing the Democratic party, and the country as a whole, on the altar of her greed, ego and ambition.

[King Coal]

83. Brilliant is not synonymous with good.

[MadHound]

84. And neither term is synonymous with the name Clinton at this point n/t

[mystieus]

85. Wrong, Obama knew she would win Penn so he broke her, Now shes begging for $5, lol thats a strategy

[NeedleCast]

86. Losing is not a brilliant strategy

[Hepburn]

87. IMO, she clearly hated by many...probably an even split between Dems and Repubs.

She will NEVER win in the GE because too many people simply think of her as an evil bitch.

[King Coal]

93. Leftchick, you are vindicated.

[Andy823]

90. No way in hell

She gets republicans to voter for her! That's a myth her camp is trying to put out, not a true at all!

[applegrove]

91. I don't think it is her hawkish attitude so much as that she seems to

appeal more to the "reagan democrats" than obama does - that is the cause of the bump after Pa.

[smiley_glad_hands]

96. In times past I have defended Bill as much as I have been defending Obama.

The clinton strategy is not brilliant. It's foolish.