Let's Be Honest: Wright + Ayers = General Election LOSS For Obama

[BobbyVan]

Here's a thought experiment: imagine if the Republican nominee, John McCain, had launched his political career at the home of an unrepentant abortion clinic bomber (who was now a professor at Arizona State University). We would rightly pummel him for that, and he would likely lose the general election.

Or, imagine that John McCain spent years as a member of John Hagee's church (and didn't simply receive his endorsement). We'd be getting a lot further with that line of argument as well.

My point is this: Hillary Clinton has been fully vetted. And if anything, she's been remarkably restrained on the Ayers & Wright issues. Just imagine what the Republicans will do with that information!

I know this isn't the message a lot of my fellow Democrats want to hear. But I'm MOST concerned about a Democrat, ANY DEMOCRAT, taking back the White House this time around. Unfortunately, Obama has way too much baggage, and I'm worried that if we nominate him we are guaranteeing our own defeat.

Just stop and think about this for a moment, before the inevitable flames begin.

[GarbagemanLB]

1. Bosnia lies + Vietnam war hero = GE loss for Hillary.

[polpilot]

57. Pro-War, Pro-NAFTA Hillary v. Pro-War, Hillary-Endorsed McCain.

Not pretty.

[papau]

76. Nope - McCain already gave a pass - O's loss of "common man" to "Reagan Dem" is sure loss

[flpoljunkie]

2. Let's Be Honest: "Snipergate" alone makes Hillary Clinton unelectable against John McCain

[2rth2pwr]

9. She did great apologizing and answering the sniper-gate question. She faced

up to her mistake, Obama won't.

[GarbagemanLB]

15. 'Mistake'? It was a lie, that she REPEATED numerous times. It is an issue that WILL come back if she

is our nominee, and it will be devastating having the Democratic candidate on tape lying about being under fire while running against a war hero.

[Yes We Did]

16. Tell me, what does Obama have to do? Huh?

put Wright in a sack, tie concrete blocks to it an dump him in lake MI?

will that satisfy you?

[2rth2pwr]

24. That's a bit extreme. Disown Wright and repudiate Ayers might work.

[John Q. Citizen]

59. Why hasn't Hill repudiated Bill for releasing cop killers? Or doesn't that count?

[Ned_Devine]

23. Yeah, Obama's race speech was a real snoozer

:sarcasm:

[washingdem]

28. How, exactly? How do you falsely remember getting shot at by snipers?

[redqueen]

35. She mistakenly lied several times?

Amazing what some manage to convince themselves of in order to support that woman.

[mod mom]

66. So being a repeated liars (3 different occasions) and apologizing only AFTER getting confronted

with video of the event doesn't raise the issue of integrity with you? Hasn't 8 years of a Liar-In-Chief been enough?

It was Hillary was did this to herself. With Obama he is being held responsible for the words of another.

[FlyingSquirrel]

3. Let's Be Honest: Sniper + Pardons = General Election LOSS For Clinton

[mckeown1128]

4. Except that Wright and Ayers have nothing to do with Obama

being president. He has the money to advertise away all the distractions.

[Ron Green]

5. Meh. Ayers is over, and Wright is right.

[Cali_Democrat]

6. "Wright + Ayers = General Election LOSS For Obama"

Wright and Ayers are running together against Obama?

:shrug:

[CatsDogsBabies]

7. Maybe I am cluelss but I just don't get the interest in Wright or Ayers,

especially Ayers. The focus on these people just makes me think that Obama has way less baggage than any politician I have ever heard of. A former pastor and an education professor?

[BobbyVan]

13. Try "a domestic terrorist"

After watching Bush win the 2004 election based on fear-mongering, just imagine what the Republicans will do with a candidate who launched his career at the home of a domestic terrorist. That's much worse than the Bosnia thing in this political culture.

[Yes We Did]

21. Oner person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.

Ayers is a professor. If he had really been a terrorist, he would have been executed.

[BobbyVan]

29. So are you calling the Weather Underground "freedom fighters"???!!!

Obama is gonna need to do better than that if he wants to win.

[scheming daemons]

34. The Weather Underground killed one less person than Laura Bush....

....

0 to 1.

[onenote]

68. and what will HRC do about the pardons of Evans and Rosenberg

She needs to make the point that she was deeply involved in the workings of the WH during Bill's presidency in order to counter McCain's arguments that he has superior experience. Yet she will have to plead ignorance of those (and other) pardons.

How is she going to do that?

[redqueen]

39. You mean like the one Bill pardoned? The one that actually DID murder someone?

You mean like that guy?

The one Hillary brazenly claims not to know anything about?

[BobbyVan]

45. ''I don't regret setting bombs,'' Bill Ayers said. ''I feel we didn't do enough.''

Imagine that in a campaign commercial. The impact will be worse than the Daisy ad against Goldwater.

[redqueen]

55. Imagine Hillary cackling instead of explaining how she didn't know anything about her husband

pardoning an ACTUAL murderer.

[BobbyVan]

86. Once you get into the pardons issue, you concede the point against Obama

Plus, Obama chose to associate himself with Ayers.

Hillary, on the other hand, happened to be married to the President who pardoned members of the WU. That's much more of a stretch.

[redqueen]

92. No, the stretch is thinking that she's the stronger candidate in the fall.

But you go right on ahead and believe the RW media.

[LSparkle]

40. Ayers didn't KILL anyone -- another HRC lie

Ayers did not SUCCESSFULLY blow up ANYTHING. The only time
a bomb he was involved went off was by MISTAKE and it didn't
kill anyone.

Lies, lies, lies, lies ...

[cali]

51. it won't work. what doesn't get told in these eek horrors Ayers narratives

that you hillbots try and scare us with, is that Ayers is a renowned and respect authority on education, a distinguished professor at U of I, advisor to Mayor Daley, etc. Not to mention that Obama's relationship with him consists of having sat on a prominent charitable board with him and dozens of other disguished folks. I'm sorry, Hillypoo had more to do with the black panthers than Obama did with the Weatherman. I think i'll start behaving like you:

Say hello to the Vince Foster thread.

[CatsDogsBabies]

52. I know who Ayers is

but wouldn't he be in jail if he were a terrorist? How does one reconcile the terrorist claim with the fact that the guy is an education porfessor? Are we really suppose to believe that parents are sending their kids to college to get an education degree from a terrorist? It just doesn't make sense. The Ayers story is pretty lame, and I think most people recognize it as such. Perhaps I am wrong here, but I think there is a lot of tolerance for 60s radicals - it seems like a long time ago to most people, a throw back and not relevant to the kind of terrorism and threats we think about today.

[anigbrowl]

94. who was active when Obama was...8.

the guy was rehabilitated and accepted into polite society a long time ago.

[DearAbby]

8. You don't believe the GOP

will dumpster dive picking out juicy scandals of the 90's on the Clinton's? Hillary has yet to be fully vetted. I don't believe the crap she says, that she has been fully vetted and can withstand the GOP attack machine.

60% of the country already have doubts about her trustworthiness. They dont see Clinton as honest. And why should they?

[Skink]

10. Mccain is unelectable..

the American people want out of Iraq. Independants that would never vote for Hillary now have a choice.

[azmouse]

11. It's a myth that Hillary is fully vetted.

A flat out myth.
You just know the RWers have tons of unused material on that woman.
That's why they're practically foaming at the mouth to have her be the nominee.

[jenmito]

12. You mean Wright-who the Clintons had in the White House during their most trying time and Ayers from

the Weather Underground from which Bill pardoned 2 members?

[boobooday]

14. Let's be honest: Hagee + insanity = GE loss for McCain

Please. Many in the right wing think Hillary is a murderer married to a rapist! Of course it isn't true, but smearing Obama and acting like Hillary WON'T be smeared as a candidate is highly disingenuous.

[ProSense]

17. You believe the Republicans will

take a page from Hillary's book?

We know what Republicans are capabable of, but let's deal with Hillary first.

[rurallib]

18. I'll see that with a Hagee + Keating

Fuck McCain.
All we need is an honest media! (OOPS like that'll happen)

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

19. I doubt that the American people are going to buy red-baiting this time around.

Even when spouted by folks wearing their flag pins.

[TheWraith]

20. I've stopped. I've thought. You're still full of crap.

Knowing somebody who was a radical 40 years ago and having a pastor who doesn't always think before he speaks translates to electoral defeat? You're just pushing the same ridiculous crap the Clinton camp has been all the way, about how somehow 15 years of slime and a 50% absolute-negative rating is better than somebody who's biggest problems are faux "scandals."

[scheming daemons]

22. Um.... no...

Most Americans judge a candidate on THEIR thoughts and THEIR positions, and not the thoughts and positions of everyone they've ever met.


John McCain has some VERY shady associations in his life too (Hagee, Keating, etc).


Americans have already responded to the Wright/Ayers stuff by *NOT* lowering Obama in the national polls. He still leads McCain 47-45 in Rasmussen's national tracker.... and everything about Wright and Ayers has been out there for weeks.



Americans realize that "guilt-by-association" is pointless..... because EVERYONE has people they know that hold bad opinions or have done bad things. If Bubba's associations with the likes of Web Hubbell and others didn't hurt him.... and Dubya's close associations with the Saudi Royal family, Bob Jones University, and others didn't hurt him....

Then Obama will be just fine.


You're buying the Hannity spin. In 5 months, the Wright issue won't work... because Americans will have moved beyond it and tired of hearing it.

If Obama's postive/negative ratings are still 51/47 (as they are) after all of this... and he's still beating McCain 47-45 (as he is) after all of this....

Then it shows that it has not damaged him..... and it will not.

[TooBigaTent]

25. Not to defend the Obama campaign since I do not support him or Clinton,

but with Crazy John's history, I am sure that Hagee and other scandals (like his despicable treatment of his crippled wife) and his support for right-wing nun-killing death squads in Central America can be used to blunt the effect of these rw-attacks.

It is not going to be easy, for either Obama or Clinton (or ???) had better be ready to fight dirty or they WILL be stomped.

[LSparkle]

26. Let's be honest: Hillary HAS NOT been fully vetted.

Have we REALLY looked adequately into the behavior of both
Clintons since LEAVING the White House? We've learned about
a few of Bill's questionable business dealings, which only
makes me wonder: what ELSE has he been doing since 2000?
The Clintons' personal history DID NOT END when they left
the White House, yet they keep insisting all their baggage
has been rummaged through. Like many other things her
campaign has been saying lately, it just isn't true.

[cali]

27. I'm sorry, but it's not the shit that;'s thrown, it's who's best at deflecting it

and prevailing over it. There's every bit as much opportunity re hilly as Obama. And the false line that it's all old stuff, or she been vetted is just absurd. If you don't think Bosnia sniper fire, Bill's activities over the past 7 years, Vince Foster and much more aren't equally resonant, you're insane. People are conditioned to believe the very worst about hillary. Obama has far more teflon than hilly. she's the velcro candidate.

[matcom]

30. Let's be honest. You don't know much about politics

[dysfunctional press]

31. insurance mandate + bosnia lies + iwr vote + general unlikeability + etc... make hillary unelectable

:shrug:
i guess we should just get used to the idea of president mccain, and focus on 2012...?

[Bigleaf]

32. Sorry, we will never see Hillary Clinton's Presidential Portrait hanging in the White House.

[BobbyVan]

37. Did you find that on Free Republic?

Disgusting what our own people are stooping to!

[dysfunctional press]

38. i think that it already does...

don't they have portraits of the 1st ladies there somewhere as well?

[newmajority]

33. Let's be really honest: Wright + Ayers = ABSOLUTE NOTHING

Hillary + "I want to OBLITERATE Iran" = Another psychopathic neocon

[islandmkl]

36. "Let's Be Honest:..."

not exactly the Clinton campaign's operating slogan, is it?

[redqueen]

42. That's putting it VERY mildly. (nt)

[Adelante]

41. Another FEAR freak

Oooh :scared:

[tishaLA]

43. "abortion clinic"????

Is this how far we've come? That on DU we are calling people who provide reproductive health care to women "abortion clinics"? Is there a right-wing talking point we WON'T use anymore?

[BobbyVan]

88. I'm not afraid to use the word "abortion". Why are you?

[DJ13]

44. A bit of advice.... Get behind our nominee & look at McCains negatives

[BobbyVan]

89. Not our nominee yet.

Sounds like you want to disenfranchise Michigan and Florida voters, not to mention those in states who haven't voted yet.

[DemVet]

46. Agree with the title of this thread.

Those are the cold, hard facts people. Character counts.

[gcomeau]

49. So say something about Obama's character then.

We're waiting.

[wileedog]

47. If it hasn't cost him the nomination, why would it cost him the GE?

Or is Hillary just THAT bad?

[sellitman]

73. Bingo!

She is that bad.

You nailed it.

[DemsUnited]

48. 2000 & 2004 Senate race fundraising scandals + major conflicts

of interest with Bill Clinton's library donors, business partners, and advisory gigs to foreign governments + rumors of affairs (both Bill & Hillary) + all the old pre-2000 baggage which you *know* the repugs can't wait to remind us about every damn chance they get + energizing the Republican base + alienating the "party activists" who volunteer & contribute many $ + losing all the young voters, new voters, independent voters and African American voters + getting caught in all kinds of lies = a ridiculous post about Obama's much smaller list of potential problems.

Time for Clinton supporters to take their head out of the sand about the 2 biggest myths of this campaign.

1) Old baggage has been rummaged through & the repugs will just ignore it like the gentlemen they are.
2) There's nothing new that can hit the fan.

[bunnies]

50. Let's be honest: KoolAid + Faulty Logic = this OP.

Speaking of baggage... Obama has a carry-on, Hillary has a U-Haul.

[BlueIdaho]

53. Let's be honest...

Unless you own a time machine, your guess is only as good as mine - I say he wins.

[bowens43]

54. Let's be honest: you = full of shit

"Hillary Clinton has been fully vetted."

You are very , very naive. They haven't even begun. They have train loads of scandals that belong to hillary and her husband. They have been salivating over this for years.

[Coexist]

56. Dissing Mississippi + Bosnia lie + Grinell ? plant + campaign debt after $150 mil chest

/insulting Louisiana + Bill's non-stop gaffe machine (accusing Iowa of sexism * "I voted for it but hoped it wouldn't pass) / Bachtell's stillbirth - unpaid vendors = LOSS

[zulchzulu]

58. Absolute bullshit

The Wright "issue" is bogus. Besides, it has already been vetted and re-vetted. To think it will be an issue in the GE 7 months from now is only how a Repig would look at it.

McCain has stated it's a stupid move.

The Ayers issue is an "issue" if you are intellectually dishonest. Ayers served on a board and gave Obama 200 bucks when he ran in 1998. People like Hannity want to keep this alive and it's already being laughed off.

As for Hillary Clinton being fully vetted, far from it. There is a TON of new stories about her and Bill regarding outsourcing, the unaccounted $18 million in recent tax records released as well as her agreements on the Iraq War and impending Iran War. Then there's SniperGate, the Jewel For the Repigs that pretty much made her completely UNELECTABLE.

I could also add that if the Repigs have two Clintons to run against, they would come out in droves. The Clintons would get annihilated by a huge Republican turnout against them as well as so many new Democratic voters would not vote for them anyway.

[wowimthere]

60. Your post is very dishonest... Clinton has not been fully vetted... she has been more vetted

than Obama... but there is still a great deal we don't know about the Clintons of the past 8 years. And I'm surprised to hear that people are afraid of the Republicans.

We are in an illegal War where scores of Americans and Iraqis have died and you're worried about a pastor and a radical? There are enough criminal acts under McCain's tent to obliterate an entire forest. His hands, like Clinton's hands are all over the Iraq war decision.

She can't win because she is John Kerry part II.

Obama by comparison doesn't have as much baggage. The measure of his power is that people continue to donate. People win when he is elected. The government wins if she is elected. This is your choice. People power or establishment Power. She will do what every politician before her has done. Talk. She will throw you some red meat now and again but mainly she will talk. Nothing will change under her. It's time you start realizing this.

[truebrit71]

61. Yawn.

Is it May 6th yet?

:eyes:

[katsy]

62. You want honesty?

Economy + Iraq + corporate corruption = the stomping of mclame regardless of who our nominee is.

Everything else is partisan bs.

This country is on life support and the gop is responsible for the state of America.

The gop will pay. We will have a Democratic President.

And that doesn't require imagination and it doesn't include repeating puke talking points to slam either of our nominees.

The truth is mclame is bushco* the sequel. Repeat as often as possible and that truth will stick in the minds of voters.

[onenote]

63. a weakness in your argument

HRC certainly has been vetted over the years. And the product of that vetting is that she has consistently polled very poorly when it comes to favorability rankings. And the odds of those numbers coming up in the GE, when she is subjected to a renewed barrage of ads about (i) whitewater; (ii) snipergate; (iii) her husband's pardons (which she cannot escape since part of her argument in response to McCain's claims of superior experience will be her time as First Lady), to name just a few.

I personally believe each of those issues are ridiculous, just as I think the arguments against Obama based on Wright's sermon or his being on the board of a very admirable charitable organization with Ayers are ridiculous.

But even with those arguments out there, Obama still has higher favorability ratings than HRC. And in this instance, I happen to believe that as more people get exposed to Obama -- as they actually here him speak and see him -- as they will if he gets the nomination -- they tend to view him more positively rather than less. Hillary, on the other hand, doesn't seem to be able to change the perception of those who dislike her. She may not go down much, but there is no evidence that she can bring her numbers up.

[onenote]

82. crickets

[Weevlitz]

64. Let's Be Honest::

71 year old war monger with a terrible temper and no understanding of how the economy works...vs...ANYONE...means John McCain will NOT be the President. Don't worry folks. Don't forget how shallow this country really is...sure...we talk a big game about issues and all that...but when it comes down to the "beauty contest" part, which is what a BIG portion of Americans use to determine who they want...Obama will BURY McCain!

[dcindian]

65. murder all the iranian children + Liar = general election loss

Can't have another warmonger in the white house

[TragedyandHope]

67. Honesty

[Gore1FL]

69. Well might as well pack it in then

because he is the nominee.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Butch350]

71. What A Bunch of

BULL ! Just get over it.

[Better Believe It]

72. Hillary Is Trying To Guarantee Obama's Defeat By McCain

[haymakeragain]

74. How are you gonna deal with that phoney problem, cause

Obama is gonna be the nominee?

[thoughtcrime1984]

75. Let's be honest: You're a Hillarite.

Hillary has PLENTY of baggage, don't kid yourself. The MSM will have Tuzla, Monica, the long list of shady felon donors, and Hil's disdain for everyone/thing that doesn't go her way. There is no such thing as fully vetted, because old issues are repackaged and aired over and over, and there always voters who haven't seen these things, and will inevitably be swayed. Obama is the better candidate, he is winning, and he is the one who will be our nom.

[Levgreee]

77. Then why is he rising in the polls right now? Guilt by association isn't as damaging as you think

[Tim4319]

78. How come it can't issues that cause Obama to loose the General Election?

Why does if have to be this whole six degrees of separation stuff?

If that is such the case, Bush was in business with the Bin Laden family, and he was still se-lected!

[pdx_prog]

79. How about....

BILL = Loss in GE
WOMAN = Loss in GE
HEALTH CARE PLAN DISASTER = Loss in GE

I could go on....

[Orangepeel]

80. that "fully vetted" line is nonsense

there are dozens of potential old and new "scandals" that could be linked to her, starting with everyone her husband ever pardoned. She's not being saddled with it because Obama hasn't used it and the GOP wouldn't use it unless she was the nominee.

[uponit7771]

81. McStain + 100 other stupid ass'd kkkons = GE loss for McSame

[Hepburn]

83. Rose Law Firm, Whitewater, Jim and Susan McDougal, Hillary Clinton's missing law-billing records,

Cattlegate ~~ Hillary's mysterious ability to turn a $1,000 investment into a $100,000 profit on cattle futures, Castle Grande ~~ a real-estate scheme, Travelgate, Mike Espy and Tyson Foods, Filegate, Golfgate, Ken Starr, Hubbell ~~ in jail after pleading guilty to bilking law clients, Indonesiagate, Paula Jones, William Kennedy ~~ another ex-Hillary Clinton law partner, Craig Livingstone ~~ the ex-bar bouncer with a history of drug use who was the head of White House security, political guru Dick Morris, Bernard Nussbaum, Energy Secretary Hazel O'Leary, Pardons by Bill Clinton, White House Chief of Staff Leon Panetta, Sherry Rowlands ~~ the $200-an-hour hooker, Vince Foster, Webster Hubbell, Xeroxed copy of Hillary Clinton's law billing records that were found in the white House book room two years after they were first sought, Gennifer Flowers, and last but not least, there is:



Yeah, Obama has sooooooo much baggage! :sarcasm:

[BzaDem]

84. That among many other things. Unfortunately, I have realized it will take until Nov 5th for people

to realize this.

[City Lights]

85. Let's be honest...oh wait, that leaves you out of the conversation.

:eyes:

[BobbyVan]

87. Hey, thanks for contributing!

:boring:

[City Lights]

90. The pleasure is all mine.

:D

[Jawja]

91. Like

Clinton + Nomination by Super Delegates = General Election LOSS for Clinton.

[EmilyAnne]

93. And would Bosnia + 2 Weather Underground pardons = general election LOSS for Hillary?