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Shoelace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 03:48 PM
Original message
In Defense of an Obama-Clinton Ticket
an article from Huff post that I found interesting. Share your thoughts but please, no more name calling. We've had quite enough of that on DU for now.

Shaun Jacob Harper
April 23, 2008

After millions of wasted dollars and endless amounts of pyrrhic pugilism, philistine pandering and pro-gun posturing, the Pennsylvania primary did not change anything. Hillary won, but she won modestly: the tide is not turning.

The candidate of realism needs a reality check, while the candidate of hope needs to stop getting his hopes up. Neither Hillary nor Obama is capable of closing the deal. Hillary will continue to fight an uphill battle all the way to Denver while doing little to mitigate her negatives. Though only diminutively behind in delegates, popular votes, and states won (she makes up in electoral math what she lacks in actual numbers), it is hard to see how Hillary could survive a superdelegate insurrection against the so-called frontrunner. Obama, however, cannot hope his way to the nomination. He has not, and presumably cannot, offer Hillary a final debilitating blow. His lead is real, but marginal and unconvincing. Why should she exit the race, Hillary correctly reminds him, when Obama gives no compelling reason for her to go?

snip

Superdelegates should take note: whether our candidates like it or not, Democrats want them both. In Pennsylvania, the Democratic electorate has told us more of the same: Democrats are unwilling to definitively decide between them. Since Obama and Hillary are unwilling to join a unity ticket before inflicting further damage on the party, superdelegates should act for them. To end the Hillary-Obama stalemate, to protect our candidates from themselves, and to avoid a confrontational convention, superdelegates should follow the will of the electorate and force a unity-ticket (regardless of who is chosen to lead it).

Described as unfeasible by some and pooh-poohed as naive by others, the dream of an Obama-Hillary ticket, as Patrick Healy of the NY Times writes, remains potent and widespread . Most conspicuously, a former Clinton aide has recently started an online petition for a unity ticket, which has already attracted the support of thousands. Because the Democratic electorate wills it, the unity-ticket is no dream.

The benefits of a unity ticket are discussed in both our respective pieces (see links above). But since more skepticism has been generated (mostly from Obama supporters) around the issue, let me address some oft repeated questions:

If Barack Obama took Hillary as a running mate, wouldn't he undermine the ideological premise of his campaign, which calls for change and a new kind of politics?

First, while Obam-acolytes rush to preserve the purity of his message, they should keep in mind that Obama has never rejected the idea of asking Hillary to serve as VP. He consistently praises her record and asserts that she would make an excellent president (though, of course, he would make a better one). Obama has even playfully suggested the possibility of unity--as long as he topped the ticket.

Second, Obama's new kind of politics calls for consensus building, including outreach and reconciliation with potential swing Republicans and "those on the other side." What could be more demonstrative of Obama's new politics, than reaching out to opposition within his own party?

Finally, it is becoming increasingly clear that Obama's new kind of politics is only skin deep. His gloves have come off: like Clinton, Obama is now willing to resort to old-political style negativity and ad hominem attack.

How could Hillary help an Obama general election campaign?

In many ways, but let me list three:

Constituencies: As the presidential historian Doris Kearns Goodwin put it: "Obama and Clinton do fit in a jigsaw-puzzle way. She brings women, older voters, blue-collar workers, Hispanics, and he brings elites, liberals, the young and the crucially necessary black vote."

Historicity: A unity-ticket would guarantee historic victories to both African-Americans and women and help mitigate lingering primary animosities.

Energy: Both campaigns have generated tremendous excitement and voter turnout. Why sacrifice even a fraction of Hillary's base of support who will not vote for Obama if she loses? Could Wes Clark reclaim these voters for Obama or generate as large of a voter turnout as Hillary? The 2008 Democratic primary has been the stuff of the greatest political drama. Until the most recent negative turn, Americans enjoyed watching both candidates side by side during debates (recall the sparks flying in the Kodak Theater): so why end it?

Wouldn't Bill and Hillary get in Obama's way during the presidency?

The potential for friction exists independent of Obama's choice for VP. Even if the Clintons wanted to settle scores, they certainly would not need the vice presidency to get even.

Isn't it too late? Haven't they gone too negative?

Again, as Goodwin put it: "All of the arguments about how rivals don't like each other would fall away if either thinks the other could help them win."

Necessity is the mother of reconciliation.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/shaun-jacob-halper/if-you-will-it-it-is-no-d_b_98144.html
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DFW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 03:56 PM
Response to Original message
1. However much sense that might make, I don't see it
I'm only speculating here, but I think Hillary would see the position of Senate
Majority Leader as one of far more influence than VP, especially as she would
be, at age 68, probably not interested in running again for president. Unless she
goes all out for Obama, should he win the nomination, she can forget that position,
so my guess is that if she bows out of the race, that is what she will shoot for,
and she will bust her ass for Obama, too, because Senate Majority Leader under a
President McCain would be no more a big deal than Harry Reid is now under President 28%.
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Shoelace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. that's if, a big if we win in November
because if we lose, alot of Democratic candidates for the Senate, House will go down with us. Then we are back to base one. We will have lost it all.
That is why this article made sense to me, trying to look at the big picture.
In this case, winning isn't everything - it's the ONLY thing in terms of picking a team who actually Wins in November.
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DFW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. I agree with you on the absolute necessity of winning the presidency
It's just that I'd be surprised to see Hillary agree to it. It's not a bad
idea, it's just that I don't think she'd go for it. If she gets offered the
job, I give it a 50-50 as far as accepting or refusing. Who knows? Maybe we'll
all get surprised.

As long as the Supreme Court Nominee to replace John Paul Stevens is NOT
nominated by John McCain or any other Republican, I'm happy. To me, nothing
has higher priority than that.
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Shoelace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #9
28. so true
it's the Supreme Court nominees that concern me the most out of all issues except for the differences between Clinton's and Obama's health care plans.

One thing is for sure, the convention in Denver is going to be very interesting!
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Birthmark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 03:56 PM
Response to Original message
2. Too late for that nonsense.
Besides, this is foolishness:
"Superdelegates should take note: whether our candidates like it or not, Democrats want them both."

If either is so wonderful, why does neither of them have a lead over McCain --a retread who endorses the policies of a President with sub-30% popularity? In a recession? With two wars and $3.60/gallon gasoline?

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PoliticalAmazon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #2
21. Please, these begging threads are disgusting. Hillary will sink any ticket...
...she is on.

Get over it. Move on. She's created her own future, one where she has no political career, and I hope she enjoys it.
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Shoelace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. who's begging?
if you actually read the article, you'd see the sense in all of it but the Obama supporters are so one sided, they aren't seeing much of anything now.
It's not going to be fun next November to say "I told ya so"!
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PoliticalAmazon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. It's begging. Hillary and her supporters know she is going to lose....
....and are desperate to be kept politically alive by clinging to Obama's coattails.

Hillary will destroy any ticket she is on. The only way that McCain can win is if he runs against Hillary. THis is evidenced by the GOP attacking Obama.

Whether it is meant that way or not, it comes across as begging, and it's useless to keep harping on it. Obama will never let that pig-slop politician on his ticket. She's doen too much to divide the party.
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
3. RayGun and Bush1 made this compromise too
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Shoelace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. so it works
which is the point of the article. At this point, with McSame climbing in the polls, we need both Clinton and Obama on the same ticket.
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. Sadly, it doesn't. She would be kryptonite on the ticket--poisonous uniquely to him.
I go into more detail below, but essentially putting Clinton on the ticket (1) validates her "he's not ready" argument, (2) places the burden of disproving this key argument against his candidacy on the very messenger who popularized it, (3) puts her in the untenable position of arguing the exact opposite of what's she's been saying for months--while asking an already widely mistrusted person to make it seems like she's trustworthy now, and (4) exposes the ticket to the vehement Clinton-hating feelings among the wider public.

This ought to be a relatively easy year for the Democrats, but I don't think we can be this flippant about our core message--that our side should be trusted to be the country's leaders now.
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Ashy Larry Donating Member (900 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
5. The "jigsaw-puzzle" argument doesn't work.
Obama does not need Clinton on the ticket in order to win the constituencies she has been beating him in. Given a choice between change and the status quo, they will choose change. Just because a Democrat votes for Clinton in a primary over Obama, does not mean that they will switch parties and vote for a 72 year-old nutjob out of spite.
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Shoelace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. yes he does!
he needs them all. She needs all of these groups. They both need each other and we need to win in November, period.

NOTHING is scarier than the thought of Republicans running this country for another years.
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Ashy Larry Donating Member (900 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. Thats not what I'm saying.
Edited on Fri Apr-25-08 04:29 PM by Ashy Larry
I'm saying that there is no evidence that Obama will have trouble winning those democrats in November in a match-up with McCain. Hillary would actually be a drag on the ticket because she would drive Independents to McCain. Unless Hillary is going to run as a Lieberman Democrat in the general, he will win almost all of Hillary's voters. They are Democrats after all. Do they want a third bush term?
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Shoelace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #12
24. that's probably true
I will surely vote for a Democrat just to make damned sure that McCain isn't elected. Well, I guess we wait and see how it all plays out.
Hopefully, we will control both houses, and the presidency!

:toast:
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. The problem is that you are assuming too much.
I'm from a poor family in blue-collar West Virginia, a state that's strongly pro-Hillary, and the working-class folks around here unfortunately don't see McCain as "more of the same". If anything, there's a lot of sympathy for him because of the way Bush has treated him.

WE all know that McCain is more of the same. But if the working class doesn't trust Obama, many of them are going to turn to McCain, because he has the reputation of being something of a rebel. They consider that to be evidence enough that a McCain presidency won't be more of the same.

It's important that we figure out some way to fix this, or I guarantee that it's going to come back and bite us in the ass HARD in November. Those who take the lower classes for granted, or treat them like they're stupid, tend to learn the hard way that they made a terrible mistake. Nothing motivates the working class to vote like a bad economy, because they feel it so much more intensely than the middle class does. They are going to the polls in droves come November. We'd better make damned sure that there's a Democrat somewhere on the ticket that they trust.
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Ashy Larry Donating Member (900 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. Obama is going to address their concerns in the coming weeks and months.
Also, once the general campaign kicks off, there will be a lot more focus on McCain's actual record. I agree that Obama has work to do but putting Hillary on the ticket isn't the answer. She would drive independents to McCain.

Anyway, West Virginia may be strongly pro-Hillary among democratic primary voters, but that doesn't necessarily indicate what would happen in the general election.
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. I disagree
West Virginia only became a "red state" during the Bush II years. This state is very strongly in play if we have someone that West Virginia working class people trust.

I honestly believe that no matter which name is at the top of the ticket, so long as one of them is "Clinton", West Virginia is in the bag for the Dems. This place is aching to vote for a Democratic presidential candidate again, but they won't settle for someone they don't trust.

The small states will matter in 2008. I know we only have a handful of electoral votes, but our nominee will need every one, and our votes are most definitely in play.

It's something to consider. :hi:
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Shoelace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #14
27. we did without Independents in 2000 and had it not been for SCOTUS
Gore would have been our president, without the much touted Independent vote.
Remember that Ralph Nader got nearly 3 million votes then so if they want to go, don't let the door hit them on the way out IMHO.

BTW, Gore DID win the popular vote as you remember.

http://www.fec.gov/pubrec/fe2000/prespop.htm
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sellitman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
8. A McCain - Clinton ticket is more likely at this point.
Just saying.

Flame On!
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OnceUponTimeOnTheNet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
11. An Obama Hillary ticket reminds me of the Gore Lieberman ticket
Pres~ DNC
VP~ DLC

wheels, bus, all that..
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
13. The argument would be more compelling if Clinton hadn't hammered him on his fitness for office
Combining their constituencies makes perfect sense, of course. However at this point to nominate her for VP would pretty much validate all the arguments that she has put out against him being nominated for president--specifically that he's not ready to serve. It would look like he's bringing in someone who can handle the 3am phone calls.

There's another, and arguably a bigger, problem. If Obama could still show, through the campaign, that he's still the 3am guy, that he's the CinC and Clinton is there for balance, he could probably pull off putting her in #2 slot. However pulling off such a trick would depend on Clinton staying perfectly and consistantly on message. Clinton is a tough campaigner, but she does not have the "message discipline" required to trust her to stay standing in Obama's shadow. She can deftly change arguments to suit the needs of the moment--which is an important skill. But staying on message when the message is one she's already publicly disputed is putting her in a dicy situation.

It's only too easy to see her gaffing a line like "And of course, I'll be there in case President Obama needs expertise in a crisis."

His own VP wavering from on Obama's readiness for office one iota will weaken public confidence in our candidate--and only she would be in a position to cause this exposure as it has been uniquely her campaign's thesis that Obama isn't quite up to snuff. To be successful, Obama above all else must put this notion in the dirt. It's bound to be a centerpeice of the Republican campaign.

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PoliticalAmazon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #13
22. And if she hadn't repeatedly insulted Obama voters. I won't vote for her....
...I don't care if Jesus Christ on his Comfortable Throne is the presidential candidate.
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Bigleaf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 04:34 PM
Response to Original message
16. Hillary fucked this up by going overboard on the negative. I can see McCains 1st ad right now:
{Video Clip of Hillary} "I’ve got a lifetime of experience, Senator McCain has a lifetime of experience. Senator Obama’s whole campaign is about one speech he made in 2002.”

{Voiceover} "If his own running mate doesn't think he has the necessary experience to be Commander in Chief, why should we"?

{McCain} "My name is John McCain and I approve this message."


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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. They'll have tons of material...
happily supplied by Clinton & her campaign.

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IDemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 04:34 PM
Response to Original message
17. May as well go with Obama/Zell Miller if you really want to implode the party
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RC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
18. If Obama chose Hillery as his running mate, then we would know the
Edited on Fri Apr-25-08 04:38 PM by RC
fix was in. I would be starting to wonder how many US refugees Canada would take in.
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
20. Again, I wouldn't mind an Obama/Clinton ticket.
I agree with a lot of what this guy says.
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butterfly77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 06:27 PM
Response to Original message
26. Hillary and bill are too power hungry...
and she would always try to act as though she is the president, I don't want hillary...
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Lucky 13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 07:07 PM
Response to Original message
30. they fucking wish.
he doesn't need Hillary. he just needs her to go away.
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