Howard Dean: What's he doing??

[maddiejoan]

To my mind he's either brilliant --or a folly.

But let's look at what's going on --and how it fulfills his "50 State strategy".

Two incredibly strong Democratic Candidates in primary battles in all 50 states. Two candidates, BTW, that of all the candidates we fielded are the most similar in policy.

How can this be bad? Democratic voter participation is at unprecedented levels, even though we are seeing what looks like a bloody skirmish.
(and really --it is anything but) Democrats in the news --constantly --very little news about the Republican nominee.

How can THAT be bad?

Now the part everyone will think I'm a lunatic about.

Dean says this will be settled before the convention. It most likely will too. In fact, I'm betting it was settled months ago.

--and that's because, ever since Edwards dropped out so "he wouldn't be in the way of a historic candidacy", what we've had is a battle over which one of these two candidates will be at the top of the Democratic ticket.

That's right, folks --It's Dean's "fifty state strategy" in play --and the ONLY way it was ever gonna work is if Obama and Hillary have both agreed to play this out until every last state has participated...and that means it's already been worked out --it's Hillary and Obama --or Obama and Hillary, and I will bet any amount of money, this was brokered the day Edwards suspended his campaign.

I'm pretty much banking on it coming out as Obama/Clinton at this point (I'd prefer the other way), but there ya have it.

If this is, in fact, what Dean has engineered --then he's a goddamned genius.

[mudesi]

1. I'd agree if one of the candidates wasn't acting like a Republican

Unfortunately, this is not the case. The only reason this is still going on is because Hillary Clinton is trying to destroy the party and Obama in order to run again in 2012.

Her disgusting campaign speaks truth to that assertion.

[maddiejoan]

4. I think it's all a show

they are both throwing just enough jabbs to keep it newsworthy --and nothing has really been below the belt.

Hillary isn't acting like a Republican --she's being hard nosed for sure, but so what?

She's not running for 2012. That's just absurd.

[MattBaggins]

39. Yes she has

which if your theory is correct is brilliant as well.

She would fit the role of VP well---Bulldog. She attacks he stays above it. She also needs to be the balance and play a bit conservative to appeal to blue dog types.

[movonne]

43. I believe that the blue dogs are moderate to right leaning..Maybe

you mean Yellow dogs..

[MattBaggins]

46. No I meant Blue Dogs

that is who she is appealing to.

[movonne]

51. I'm sorry I misread your thread...

[maddiejoan]

49. ding ding ding

though I'd argue it works just as well the other way.

Good Cop/ Bad Cop always works --in either order.

[movonne]

41. I think she is acting like a repug...I'm not being mean but I really think

she is...when you go to people like richard mellon scaife and rupert murdock.. don't it make you wonder???

[maddiejoan]

50. Not particularly no.

I look at it as making your enemies into your friends.

always a good course of action.

Obama does this as well, BTW

[tekisui]

2. The 50-State Strategy perfected.

I can go with your theory a long way. Mysterious things have been said be Dean, Gore, Reid and others about "Things will work out".

Edwards' pre-SuperTues drop has perplexed me as well. Someone had a talk/deal with him.

I guess time will tell.

But, Obama is the one that the DNC has made a deal with, starting a 50-State General Election joint initiative just after the NC and IN Primaries.

[rucky]

3. That would be sweet

if you're right.

and that would make you a sub-genius for figuring it out.

and me a sub-sub genius for figuring that out.

[newmajority]

5. God, not another one (Hillary begging for VP thread)

Howard Dean doesn't want to reward the DLC for what they have done in this campaign. Or what they did to him in the last one, for that matter.

[maddiejoan]

7. You're not seeing the big picture

Dean will probably explain it to you around June first

[newmajority]

17. No, I see the big picture perfectly well

We have the opportunity to reverse the downward toilet spiral that this country has been in since 1980. And you can't accomplish that by retaining part of the problem (a Clinton or a Bush in power)

[maddiejoan]

22. yeah

those Clinton years sucked so bad.

:eyes:

Bush/Clinton/Bush/Clinton = Failure/Success/Failure/Success

[uponit7771]

29. Well, she's got the same mindset, tactics and hell...even some of the same talking points..why would

...someone right now believe she's different?

[maddiejoan]

34. By what criteria do you establish this?

I could just as easily show you where Obama has done the same...and what would be the point?

They are both attacking each other --and not that badly. Of course it will seem like they are "acting like republicans"

from my perspective, it seems sometimes that Obama is acting like a Republican --and then I remember to take a step back and look at what's really going on.

[newmajority]

44. You mean successes like

NAFTA
Don't Ask Don't Tell
Telecommunications act of 1996
DOMA
Welfare "reform"

Yeah, those sure paid off great, didn't they?

[maddiejoan]

52. You don't think

you'll wind up seeing similar compromises coming from an Obama Presidency?

Cos --you will. That's almost a guarantee. He's a centrist. Just like she is.

[depakid]

6. Unfortunately, you lost me here: "Two incredibly strong Democratic Candidates"

Two candidates less likely to win the GE would have been difficult to find.

The genius of Dean's strategy has been with congressional (and statewide) races, where Dems have made some impressive gains.

Not that it's had an equally impressive effect on national policy, but that's the fault of the "leadership" in Congress, which Dean has been admonished time and again that he has nothing to do with.

[maddiejoan]

9. I disagree with you

One thing guaranteed about both Hillary and Obama --they are media magnets.

The press loves to talk about them. Free advertising.

Name another candidate we fielded that would have generated more press than these two.

[thoughtcrime1984]

8. I'd be inclined to agree with your assertion, however

I just don't think Hillary would have gone quite as negative as she did, if this was the deal. Why damage (or attempt to) your running partner?

[maddiejoan]

11. Gotta sell newspapers

seriously --the more I look at it --it's a show.

[uponit7771]

16. Ballooning arguments into the press like NC GOP is doing with Wright. But I don't understand her...

...Bosnia shit and NAFTA, that kinda negates this argument

[Hippo_Tron]

10. It wouldn't be this ugly if it were planned out

[maddiejoan]

12. you sure?

and has it really been all that ugly?

I've seen way worse.

[Indenturedebtor]

21. Have you seen worse between Dem candidates in a Primary?

I'd be willing to bet you haven't.

This is a nice theory and it could have worked beautifully if she wasn't playing like Rove. She's trying to make everyone hate the nominee.

I'm sorry it's a nice way to rationalize the disgusting traitorous behaviour of HRC but the fact is that she's doing her best to ruin our chances in the GE.

[maddiejoan]

24. If I thought you were really an Obama supporter

I'd take you seriously.

But you're not.

You're just another Hillary hater.

[Indenturedebtor]

45. I didn't hate her before she started with the Rove stuff

I hate Rove too. In fact while I do not hate all people that vote Republican I nearly hate all politcians who act Republican. They are destroying this country.

I hate Bush when he Swiftboated Kerry. Didn't you?

[maddiejoan]

48. But you ignore

Axelrove's dirty little games?

Face it --the Obama campaign has been playing just as dirty.

That's politics.

[uponit7771]

25. Right, I'm too young to remember but this crap between BHO & HRC seems off the hook. Oil and water

[Hippo_Tron]

33. I agree this isn't all that bad...

And honestly most of the "ugly" stuff has just been inflated because of the media.

You have an interesting theory. If they do end up running together you may be proven right.

[madfloridian]

13. Wow. the amazing spin.

Bring it on.

We have our nominee...

It is not Hillary. Thank God it is not her.

[maddiejoan]

15. If you're right

then Dean should be thrown out for creating a split that going to lose us the election.

But I think you're wrong. Every single constituency we can capture is owned by both of our candidates.

This "battle" has been the best thing to drive voter participation in every state of the union.

[madfloridian]

19. Just exactly what are you accusing Dean of doing? Could you be clear?

I am seeing a disturbing trend.

Could you elaborate?

[maddiejoan]

26. I;m accusing Dean

of trying to make sure we win the Presidency.

Horrid of me.

[madfloridian]

42. I got that....but we don't need Hillary to do it. That is my point.

I mean look at the constant attacks trying to break the DNC fundraising. Look at the attacks on Dean by her surrogates saying he should resign.

He has done a good job. Why is her campaign after him so much?

Hillary rallies across FL against DNC.... surrogates building anger on purpose toward DNC

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/2026

Clinton changing the rules of how we pick a nominee.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/2022

Lanny Davis says Dean should resign.

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/04/hillary_supporter_lanny_davis.php

[maddiejoan]

47. Guess what.

We DO need Hillary to win it.

I'd rather have her on top of the ticket -- and I still think she can pull it off.

But I'm not so naive to not recognize that we'll need Obama on the ticket now.

What you're overlooking is this -- Obama is leading only by the skin of his teeth, and people who support Hillary are very strong in their support and make up core Democratic voters.

[madfloridian]

53. Forget it.

[uponit7771]

20. Didn't the GOP lose 15% of their electorate in the Penn burbs? If so then you've got a point but...

...what is up with her Bosnia, NAFTA, Iran crap? If it's to catch crap then it aint workin

Either way, I can see Dean, Obama and Hillary being this smart looking at the double digit registration rate relative to last election cycle

[maddiejoan]

28. and we're going to get it in

FIFTY STATES.

I really think it's obvious --as far as the rest of it --Bosnia, Wright, NAFTA -- that's just the media doing their dance , and an effort to deflate RW talking points before they do --think of it as a 4 month news dump on both candidates.

[uponit7771]

30. unnnn, .......I'm mad at her If that's true me & Hil can be friends but I aint datin her no more :-)

[uponit7771]

14. K, the ONLY reason I find this CREDIBLE is HRC could be immunizing Obama by using arguments that...

...will be tired come the GE.

Matter of fact that only thing the GOP has got is to balloon is Wright and Ayers and if that doesn't work we're going to war with Iran.

Either way, an Obama\Clinton ticket is something that could be done...Hell, RayGun and Bush 1 hated each other IIRC

[maddiejoan]

18. So did JFK and Johnson

and the dynamic of the two of them is quite similar.

[newmajority]

54. That's really not the best example to make your case, if you know what I mean....

LBJ being from Texas and ....well I think you have probably heard all the same rumors about that we all have.

For the record, I believe it was a Bush Crime Family operation, but that don't mean they weren't assisted by LBJ. He was in with the Texas oil crowd, after all. As was Poppy.

[maddiejoan]

55. Here. make a hat for yourself.

[berni_mccoy]

23. I don't think you are crazy. I have had similar thoughts. They just didn't include Clinton.

I think it was likely the strategy, but they didn't expect it to go as negative as it has gone, meaning I agree with everything but the unity ticket. I think Clinton wouldn't agree so Dean continued with the plan understanding how truly negative it would become.

[uponit7771]

27. ...and it's just not the negative stuff for me, HRC's credibility is nathon. She's moved more to the

...right as we type in tactics, mindset etc....no one wants anything that LOOKS like Bush anywhere near the White House

Now all of it could be a rope a dope to get the GOP electorate to switch and the registration rate up but...

[maddiejoan]

31. maybe

maybe not.

But if Hillary had dropped --where's the fifty states strategy? Where's the news for the Democratic nominee?

I personally think Dean has been playing the media like a fish --and Obama and Clinton are both in on it --and have been since before Feb 5.

They're just duking it out for who gets the bigger desk.

[anigbrowl]

32. I partially agree, but doubt we'll see a O-C dream ticket.

The basic reason being that the winner of such a grueling contest will have a mandate, where I agree with you - this primary race has certainly focused nation's and world attention on the Democratic party and left the GOP looking somewhat irrelevant.

On the other hand, the eventual victor's first act as nominee is picking their VP. If that act appears driven by necessity rather than choice, it means their first decision will appear to have been taken from a position of weakness. The winner has to show themselves to be their own person straight out of the gate, rather than someone who is ruled by circumstances. In other words, even if Obama or Clinton wanted to pick the other as running mate, it would be poor political strategy to do so.

Of course, a lot could change, and if this was all brokered as you suggest it might all be part of the 'act'. But personally I think it's not an act and it's too late now for a joint ticket. If Clinton had dropped out before Ohio citing financial reasons, I'd be more inclined to believe your brokered scenario. But it seems unlikely to me.

[uponit7771]

37. Irrelevant to the point McStain can't double digit them in any national polls. But I agree, they....

...deserve Oscar nods if this is an "act"

[rodeodance]

35. i disagree. Dean is way too learning toward obama--and his thug Donna

B. is his guard dog and does the barking.

He has put off FL and Mi to the favor obama.

Lastest is that he interfered and helped get the NC debate cancelled with favors Obama.

No, i am not convinced.

[maddiejoan]

40. which is only to say

that he favors the outcome as Obama on top, but he hasn't the power to choose Obama on his own.

Yes --he's probably doing what he can to see Obama as POTUS, but he's got to realize that this is all split down the middle about as neatly as it could possibly be.

There is only one way to remedy that --and that's to have them duke it out for the top, with them both having already agreed to be on the ticket.

This bird is gonna need both it's wings to fly in the GE.

[movonne]

36. Not going to happen...

[wileedog]

38. I will agree if Dean is puppetmastering this

He is beyond fucking genius. Makes Rove look like amatuer hour.

That said I don't see the Clintons accepting 2nd fiddle because Howard Dean of all people tells them to.

I also don't buy the 2012 thing either for the record - I really think she still has every intention of prying this thing from Obama's cold dead fingers, so to speak, and worrying about cleaning up the bodies later.

But hey, maybe you are right. If we win I certainly won't complain.