All the idiots who stay home after 8 years of Republican rule deserve to be TS'd

[sellitman]

I am for Obama. I am not a Hillary fan by any stretch of the imagination

But:

Even if she cheats, lies and strong arms her way to the ticket I will vote for her.

Staying home , writing in another name, voting McBush, or Nader is not an option.

I have lived through the last 8 years of Republican rule and I hardly know my country.

I want a Democrat in there. Even a sullied one.

I want the next Supreme Court appointment to be a Liberal or at worst a Moderate.

How the f... can you think otherwise?


*Edited cause I spell like a repiggy

[LeFleur1]

1. Good For You

This needs to be said over and over and over.

[sellitman]

2. Nothing pisses me off more than DUers who don't see this.

Nothing!

Kick & Rec!

[Name removed]

3. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CanonRay]

4. Some rare common sense for a change. Thank you!

[PoliticalAmazon]

9. Sheepling on up to the polls for the DNC does not = "common sense"...

...It is being weak and caving in to their fear tactics.

[cali]

13. What has Howard Dean done to piss you off?

And what doesn't make any sense is the perennial idiocy masquerading as independent thinking that says there's no difference between the dem and the repuke. McCain is far more of danger than either dem.

[PoliticalAmazon]

17. Red Herring, and your dishonest argument ethics are noted....

...You are trying to refute my argument by bringing in a red herring. That is an illogical fallacy, the mark of a weak poster. It is also a dishonest tactic, and if you cannot win an argument by honest methods, perhaps you should consider the worth of your argument.

Tell me the difference in ACTIONS between Hillary and McCain. We all know that Hillary is a liar, so there is no reason that what she SAYS she will do, she will actually do.

She is actually WORSE than McCain on many points. She has threatened nuclear obliteration Iran. That in and of itself should be reason enough to vote for ANYONE else but Hillary.

She has been pimping her power in politics, power WE gave her by our support and our votes, to outsource American jobs to India. McCain hasn't done that.

The list goes on and on.

There is NO reason to expect that Hillary will be different than Bush Jr, and far more reasons to expect her to be the same as Bush or worse. McCain won't be as bad as Bush. And there are a number of other Democratic politicians who would be far better than Bush.

Don't let the DNC manipulate you like that.

[cali]

23. LOL! petulance will get you nothing.

Sure, here's the difference: Hillary has a long record of defending abortion rights. Period. Hillary has supported such programs as SCHIP. Hillary has voted to restore Habeas Corpus. Most politicians lie. I agree that hillary is actually a liar v someone who lies, but there are areaas where one can clearly see she's never wavered. Hillary is a much better on GLBT issues.

Yes, I find Hillary's rhetoric over Iran nauseating, but it's actually not worse than McCain's rhetoric or actions. I deplore to see her trying to out tetesterone the men. And McCain has supported every "free trade" deal to come down the pike. McCain fucking voted against a national holiday honoring MLK.

http://www.aflcio.org/issues/politics/mccain_trade.cfm

Pulling things out of thin air doesn't cut it, dear.

And I'm not like you some didactic fool letting the DNC or anyone else sway me. I can see that much as I dislike Hillary, her record in area after area is far better than McCain's. Grab a clue and lose the canned cant about how she's worse. Just makes you look ignorant.

:hi:

[PoliticalAmazon]

30. Ad hominem attacks are also logical fallacies, sign of an invalid argument...

...Again, if you must use logical fallacies to try to sidetrack the discussion and discredit another poster, perhaps you reconsider the worth of your argument.

Has McCain profited from foreign corporate backers who benefited from Hillary's outsourcing?...

Has McCain promised India's outsourcing corporate giants that "outsourcing will continue" and that at the "top" of her agenda will be to further cement U.S.-India ties?

Did India outsourcing corporate moguls throw McCain a "gala" NYC fundraiser, resulting in $2.5million going into Hillary's campaign?

Hillary says she will "fight for us," but her record proves otherwise. Millions of Americans have suffered from her neocon-collaborating votes in the Senate.

And I would not count on Hillary standing behind a woman's right to define what happens to her body. She has flipped on so many other issues, and uses so many of the Bush/Rove tactics (and worse), that it would be extremely naive and gullible to believe that she would stand by a woman's right to choose.

If you would be satisfied with Hillary as the Dem Party candidate, and choose to vote for her, then I support you 100%. It is your choice, and your resonsibility and honor to decide FOR YOURSELF who would be the best president.

What I object to is name-calling and threats of TSing to try to intimidate posters from stating their opinion on a board, and voting for the candidate of their choice.

[sellitman]

31. It also makes her a pizza box

At least it should.

[PoliticalAmazon]

38. Ad hominem attacks is the best you can do to support your position? n/t

[TZ]

33. McCain won't be as bad as Bush..

You really believe that? If you do why the fuck are you on this site? Seriously.
Another person who doesn't know a thing about politics but thinks they do and that the rest of us are idiots. Seriously..thats one dumb post.

[Exilednight]

77. I agree, McCain will be as bad as Bush. Sadly, so will Hillary. n/t

[Hippo_Tron]

50. Umm have you seen McCain's "Bomb Bomb Bomb Iran" video?

Hillary said she would bomb Iran if they attacked Israel with a nuclear weapons (which is a stupid hypothetical that will never actually happen). McCain basically said he might just decide to bomb Iran if he feels like it.

You may not like Hillary but you have to be delusional to believe that McCain is better.

[PoliticalAmazon]

62. Hillary said she WOULD nuke Iran, and her "umbrella of deterence"...

...IMO means she would nuke ANY Middle Eastern country.

She is WEAK. That is why she immediately had to go to the nuclear option. She has also said she will do something which, unless she performs a military coup and disbands Congress, she will not get approval for. That will make her look even weaker.

Bad strategy. Never tell opponents what you are going to do, and never make a threat you can't carry out.

[roguevalley]

53. given that mccain is all war all the time, you better not have any

draft bait in your family while you take a 'principled' stand. I would even vote for Hillary because it isn't about me, its about my country.

[Mz Pip]

69. Okay

vote for McCain or stay home. That'll show us. Stomp your feet while you're at it.

Don't forget to enjoy 4 more years of Neocon Heaven.

[TragedyandHope]

5. Agreed

I may have to hold my nose to do it, but I will not let McSame get anywhere near the Oval Office.

[Orsino]

6. I sympathize.

We may be underestimating the hypnotic power of corporate television, and the sheer breadth of the divide between Washington policy and its consequences among ordinary Americans, but yeah, I do not completely understand how someone can plan to sit out November. What the hell is it gonna take?

[sellitman]

7. They spend hours and hours on DU bitching and moaning for 8 years then stay home?

Or vote McBush?

WTF!!!!


:mad: :mad:

[PoliticalAmazon]

12. Could say the same to you: You spend hours bitching on DU and then sheeple on up to the polls...

...and vote for whatever is in the Dem Party slot?

If the Dem candidate happens to be your candidate, then great, you're lucky.

If not, then you have the right (and responsibility, IMO) to vote for the person you believe would be the best candidate.

[high density]

19. It sounds like you've never heard of compromise.

Just about everything I do in life requires some sort of compromise, and that includes my votes for political candidates. The "best candidate" is almost never on the ballot. I am the only person who feels and thinks my opinions, and I just have to find the politician that is closest suited to me while still has some chance of winning. Just like I wouldn't throw money away in a venture bound to fail, I also won't throw a vote away to a politician that has no chance in hell of winning. So far these have generally been Democrat vs Republican races, and for most things the Democrat is just closer to how I feel. Those are the options. It's not an exact fit, but it's sure as hell a lot better than what the Republicans are putting forward.

[PoliticalAmazon]

37. Do you believe that GOP voters were right to "compromise" and accept Bush Jr...

...instead of voting for someone else? What has their "compromise" got for us?

There are some issues that are appropriate for compromise, and some that are not. I don't believe that voting is a place of compromise. Either a voter can support a candidate or they can't.

Could you ever vote for Bush Jr if he was the Dem candidate? Most Dems could not, because it is a compromise they could not accept.

You appear to be willing to compromise on this election. I support you 100%. It is your right and honor to vote for the person of your choice.

I would hope that you would extend the same support and tolerance to other voters.

[Duke Newcombe]

136. There's a difference between "bending" and "bending over" n/t

Duke

[PoliticalAmazon]

8. Not all Democrats are sheeple. Some believe in voting for the best person for the office...

...It is every person's right, and duty, to vote for who they believe is the best candidate, and not just sheeple on up to the polls on election day and vote for any piece-o-shit candidate the DNC decides to force down our throats.

If you continue to vote for whomever the DNC shoves into the Dem spot on the ticket, then you are empowering them to continue to do the same thing.

The only way we can take our party back is to use the only power we have: our votes.

Besides, if a person who won't vote for the Dem candidate goes to the polls to vote for another candidate, at least they will be there voting, and can vote for other Democrats and liberal issues, if they agree with those.

[high density]

10. Well keep telling yourself that when McCain installs a couple more nut jobs

on the Supreme Court.

I don't like the process either, but it's what we've got, and it's not likely to change in our lifetimes.

[PoliticalAmazon]

14. USSC is a fear tactic. Hillary, judging by her history, would do the same or worse....

...She's proven herself to be more evil than Bush, who, for all of his evilness, did not repeatedly and overtly pander to racial bigots.

There is no reason to believe that she would not choose the same people McCain would. They are both whoring for the same pimps: international corporate handlers and the elites.

[high density]

22. What history?

Neither of these candidates has a history of picking Supreme Court judges. As much as I do not like HRC, I can't see her plucking judges from the same well as John McCain.

[BzaDem]

28. This post just shows your ignorance. USSC is a fear tactic. Wow.

[PoliticalAmazon]

36. Why don't you think it is a fear tactic? This is why I beileve it is...

...The DNC has repeatedly used the ability of a president to appoint USSC justices to frighten Dem voters into sheepling on up to the polls and voting for whatever piece-o-shit candidate that is on the Dem ballot.

However, this is a false threat because:

1) Congress must approve the appointment, and Dems in Congress have voted in unsuitable justices like Alioto. Obviously, they approve of such inappropriate appointments, or they would not vvote to confirm.

2) Hillary has shown that she will pander to bigots to win the presidency. IMO, based on her neocon-collaborating votes in the Senate, this means there is no indication she will not pander to anti-choice forces, including appointing a justice that would cement this large voting bloc behind her.

The USSC scare tactic is similar to the terrorist scare tactic used by Bush Jr.

1) Both issues (unsuitable USSC justice being appointed by a president, threat of terrorist attack) use a possible threat for political purposes by using the fear of the threat to frighten voters into voting a certain way.

2) Both threats are not based in logic. It turned out that there was no basis for Bush/Rove color-coded terrorist attack warnings. As I indicated, above, a USSC appointment needs confirmation by Congress, Democrats have already voted for confirmation of inappropriate justices so there is no reason to believe that they wouldn't, again, vote for inappropriate justices, and Dems in Congress are far more likely to vote FOR an inappropriate USSC appointment if the appointment is made by a Dem president than they are if the president is a Republican.

Indeed, there is actually MORE of a chance that an inappropriate USSC appointment by a Dem president would be confirmed than there is if a Republican president made the appointment. Parties in Congress are loathe to oppose their own party's president because to oppose the president is to weaken the president, which weakens Dems in Congress, as well.

Those are my reasons for stating that the USSC justice appointments is a fear tactic being used by the DNC to get their voters to vote for anything that ends up on the Dem ticket.

Do you have any reasons to back your claim, other than using an ad hominem attack?

[Pushed To The Left]

125. Both Clinton and Obama opposed Bush's Supreme Court appointments

Can't say the same for McCain!

[PoliticalAmazon]

41. USSC justice threat is the same as Bush Jr's terrorist threats....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5692943&mesg_id=5694541

[sellitman]

26. As long as there is a two party system the choices are clear.

A or B wins. Like it or not. Choosing anything else is cutting off your nose to spite your face. Nader proved that almost 8 years ago. Go ahead stand on your holy pulpit and whine like a petulant child. All you will get is 4 more years of Fascist Republican rule.

[PoliticalAmazon]

39. I don't believe that our duty is to vote for the one who is most likely to win...

...I believe that it is my duty, and honor, to vote for the person I believe would make the best president.

We discard our power as voters to direct national policy when we allow our political party's leadership to narrow our choices to one.

[sellitman]

79. As a voter you can vote for whoever you dam well want to.

As a Democrat there will only be one choice.

That is the way it is.

Voting otherwise is against your best interest until the system changes.

Unless these past 8 years have worked for you.

McBush will allow them to continue. Voting for him, (shudder) Nader, or staying home will get you more od the same.

Ergo the nickname: McSame.

Your choice.

Choose wisely.

[PoliticalAmazon]

82. "As a Democrat there will be only one choice." WRONG. As a sheeple there will be...

...only one vote: whatever is on the ticket with a (D) in front of its name.

I believe when we allow the party to define our choice in voting to only one choice. we give away the power we have as voters to direct the course of our country.

I understand you believe that voting for the (D) is right. What I can't accept is that you want to say that YOUR way is the only way, and if you don't vote straight (D) you aren't a Democrat.

[sellitman]

137. You have posted you prefer McCain over Hillary.

That isn't what I consider a Dem.

I think most would agree.

[PoliticalAmazon]

139. I have left all options open, and I've posted about all of them....

...I've not said I "prefer" McCain over Hillary. I've said that McCain would be less dangerous to our country because Hillary has already promised nuclear obliteration of a Middle Eastern country, surely the quickest path to nuclear Armaggedon against our own country.

And, again, your self-annointed role as arbiter of who and what is a Democrat is obnoxious. I probably have been a Democrat longer than you, and am descended from three American presidents and one signer of both the DOI and Constitution.

So your comments about what is and what is not a Democrat really don't impress me much.

[jefferson_dem]

11. I will not stay home.

But I will never vote for Hillary.

[ScarletSniper]

15. "Even if she cheats, lies and strong arms her way to the ticket I will vote for her."

More power to you. Not I though. Not if she does anything in the subject line. Call me what you want, but fuck that...

[PoliticalAmazon]

18. ITA. If we vote for her, we are ensuring future Dem candidates will be like her or worse...

...We are lowering the bar to the level of Bush Jr, and that I will not be a part of.

[ScarletSniper]

20. And neither will I. As said, people can call me what they want, but I won't be a part of it..

[sellitman]

32. But you will be apart of a McCain victory.

Thats ok with you I see.

That explains alot.

[ScarletSniper]

42. Because I won't vote for Hillary it doesn't guarantee a McCain win..you'll vote for her. Thankfully

she won't get the nod and I will get to vote the nominee that the people chose..Barack Obama

[sellitman]

46. Go read my OP with your glasses on this time.

There.....I knew you could do it.

[ScarletSniper]

47. Sigh, I remain unmoved.

[KaptBunnyPants]

54. And you'll be part of the continuing corruption of the Democratic Party.

That explains a lot about you as well. The Democratic Party can be replaced if it chooses to be irrelevant. Supporting a broken undemocratic system out of fear is pathetic.

[PoliticalAmazon]

67. Then Hillary isn't electable. SHE's the one who will lose any election...

...she runs in by her Bush/Rove tactics and dishonesty, as well as her unstable emotional state, and history of what she has supported with her vote in the Senate.

I'm not the candidate. I can't "win" for McCain. But Hillary can certainly lose the election for us.

If you want to blame someone, go to Hillary. This election was hers. She was the inevitable candidate. But the more people see of her, the more they recoil and turn to another candidate.

That's not the fault of the voter. That's the vote of Hillary and her campaign.

[Egnever]

27. Right there with ya

I will not be a part of giving that sort of a win a wink and a nod. Just aint going to happen. I will work for and vote for every single dem down ticket but I will not cast my vote for her.

[ScarletSniper]

43. Amen!

[ErinBerin84]

16. even though I really don't like that people will stay home

(just because of Supreme court justices. I will vote Democrat, but I might have to get drunk beforehand) if their choice is not the nominee....I slightly understand the logic better than the people who say that they will vote for McCain. McCain? God, he is scary.

[Kaleva]

21. Using your own standards

"Even if she cheats, lies and strong arms her way to the ticket I will vote for her."

You ought not have a problem with a Supreme Court nominee who lies about being strongly supportive of Roe v. Wade in order to get the job.

We get the govt. we deserve.

[Politicub]

24. I'm with you - every step of the way

I'm a Hillary supporter, but should Obama become our nominee, I will be an enthusiastic supporter of his. I'm sick of Republican rule, and I'm not so sure our nation can take another four years.

And McCain?!? Shudder...

[high density]

25. There are lots of cut off your nose to spite your face posts in this thread

"Well it's really bad. Bush has been horrible. McCain will be just as bad or worse. But (Democratic Candidate Here) is bad too, so I'm taking my vote and doing nothing with it! Then I can bitch for four more years!! After that I know my perfect candidate will be there to fix everything."

What a joyous outlook some people have. Sometimes you just have to work with what you've got.

[Egnever]

29. No sorry dont buy it for a second

Sometimes you have to endure short term pain for long term gain. Voting for this sort of behavior reinforces it. I do not want the Dem party morphoing any further into the republican corporate party than it allready is. I will not support that sort of divisiness and willingness to forgo rules because they dont alow you to achieve your goals. It is everything I hate in bush and I will not assist the Dem party in becoming clones of that sort of behavior.

Cry me a river all you want but I aint doing it.

[BzaDem]

40. The short term pain will last your entire lifetime. > 20 years of hard-right majority in SCOTUS.

[ScarletSniper]

45. Yeah, so vote for theft and strong arm tactics! Life will suck either way..short or long

[WilliamPitt]

34. Preach.

[sellitman]

35. That I have to is almost incomprehensable.

That DUers would post postives on McBush staggers the imagination.

Have these folks Internet access?

[Labors of Hercules]

44. Okay, you swayed me...

But I still think Hillary Clinton is a horrible, lying, manipulative powermonger.

[sellitman]

48. You made my day.

And you are right about her.

I hope I get to pull the next lever for Obama.

[PoliticalAmazon]

71. Then why vote for her? Don't endorse her with your votes. n/t

[Labors of Hercules]

138. She'd still be the lesser of two weavels...

McCain is a horrible, lying, manipulative, stupid, Repugnicon powermonger.

[KaptBunnyPants]

49. Then tombstone me. I won't give my vote to her if she can't win legitimately.

Not that it would matter, because she'd get blown out in November.

On edit:
One further thing. She can't do it alone. She can only steal the nomination if a majority of the Party's most powerful members violate democratic principles to install her. I have always believed that the Democratic Party is on balance good. This event would prove that wrong. So not only would I not vote for her, I would renounce the exposed and worthless shell of a party that allowed it for good.

[drm604]

51. Absolutely.

Whoever the nominee is, I'm voting and volunteering for them.

This world often forces you to choose between two evils. Opting out of that choice is not being virtuous. Some might even say that it's moral cowardice masquerading as virtue. When faced with two, and only two, viable choices, self-righteously refusing to participate - rather than choosing the lesser evil - often enables the greater evil.

We all need to work to make the world a better place. Sometimes that means picking the least obnoxious of two choices. Understanding that is part of maturity. Understanding that is part of the liberal world view.

Black and white all or nothing thinking is the domain of the conservative.

It's called pragmatism people. Like it or not, it's often a necessary thing.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

52. Some of us think that our votes belong to us. Not to any particular party.

"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever, in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else, where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent. If I could not go to heaven but with a party, I would not go there at all." --Thomas Jefferson to Francis Hopkinson, 1789.

"Were parties here divided merely by a greediness for office,...to take a part with either would be unworthy of a reasonable or moral man." --Thomas Jefferson to William Branch Giles, 1795.

“Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost." --John Quincy Adams

[PerpetuallyDazed]

56. So... are you going to just not vote?

Hoping that it will send a message or something? I'm just curious, not trying to attack :)

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

57. I always vote.

Fortunately, my ballot comes with more options than 2. Including a nifty "write-in" option.

[PerpetuallyDazed]

59. Who do you plan on voting for, if I may ask? n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

60. I honestly don't know yet.

Certainly not McCain or Hillary. Obama has risen to "maybe" status.

[PerpetuallyDazed]

63. Cool. I personally think it's ridiculous to vote for candidates

they're never going to "perfectly" match your ideals/values. I vote AGAINST people... :)

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

76. Generally speaking that's what I've done in the past.

But, sometimes the stench of politics-as-usual has overcome my nose holding abilities and I vote 3rd party or write-in.

I've been a "DINO" since 1968 when I voted Peace and Freedom rather than Nixon or Humphrey.

[PerpetuallyDazed]

55. I'm shocked by some of these replies...

I voted on principle in the primary. Now its time to vote strategically: "Anyone but McCain..." Staying home is not an option! Just about every Obama supporter I know shares my position on this: WE MUST DEFEAT MCCAIN! I hope more Clintonites change their minds.

[PoliticalAmazon]

75. I know many Obama supporters who will not vote for Hillary. Period.....

...If the Dem Party wants to win in November, they better have a candidate that isn't a Bush/Rove clone.

If Hillary frauds her way onto the ticket, the Dem Party will lose.

It's not the fault of the people who won't vote for her. It's the fault of the Dem Party for having such a loser candidate.

[Exilednight]

58. "Even if she cheats, lies and strong arms her way to the ticket I will vote for her." So you.......

will vote for someone who does everything that Bush has done, and goes against everything we as a party say we stand for?

You can't lay claim to be part of the solution when you're creating the problem.

[PerpetuallyDazed]

61. "The ends justify the means"

Those are the rules. We, "the people", aren't powerful enough yet to change them.

[Exilednight]

64. Yes we are, we're just to damn lazy to do it. If she somehow wins, and people voted for her........

thinking she will be different or actually do something for our country will have no room to complain when she acts just like Bush and digs us deeper into endless war and increase the black hole we call an economy.

[PerpetuallyDazed]

68. But who is more likely to do something worthwhile?

Or, at least, not do anything further to destroy the country?? There's gotta be compromise somewhere, y'know?

[Exilednight]

70. Obama has the best chance of getting something done. n/t

[PerpetuallyDazed]

74. But what if, (Lord forbid) it comes down to Clinton v. McCain?

I'm holding MY nose on that one!

[PoliticalAmazon]

78. Then the Dem Party will lose. Not the fault of voters; the fault of Dem Party...

...for having her on the ticket.

There is no way she is going to win the primary. She would have to get 70% of the vote on the rest of the states.

I think she and her supporters are hoping to steal the election by buying enough SDs to shove her onto the ticket.

If the Dem Party wants to guarantee that at least half of the party stays home in November, this is the way to do it.

[PerpetuallyDazed]

84. But you not voting, or voting for McCain/Nader

is not punishing the Democratic party; it's punishing the rest of America. Unless, that is, you think the possibility of more affordable healthcare, getting out of Iraq, ect. is a bad idea? I just don't understand your argument.

[Exilednight]

90. Hillary's health care plan is the biggest fairytail I've ever heard, and she will not get...........

us out of Iraq. In fact, I will go as far and say that she will drag us into Iran.

[PerpetuallyDazed]

93. AGAIN...

Is it better to err on the side of "hope" (hope that Clinton will actually do something worthwhile and positive, perhaps even outweighing all the more negative things she might do) or JOHN MCCAIN?

Do you think she'd screw up the country more than John McCain?

[Exilednight]

94. "Do you think she'd screw up the country more than John McCain?" More? No. Just as bad? Yes. n/

[PerpetuallyDazed]

100. Quit trying to make this so difficult.

If you really are an Obama supporter (as I assume you are) you understand that the Democratic party is the best chance we have to get some change in this country, REGARDLESS of who the nominee is... Y'know, it's all about the "buzzword" for this election: HOPE.

I suspect you do know what that means. :)

[Exilednight]

101. I'm 98% sure that Obama will be the nominee, but if that 2% rears its ugly head - then I give up....

on this party. I'll find a third party that still believes in fighting for the common person and upholds real values instead of paying lip service.

[ScarletSniper]

107. LOL..ditto again.

[ScarletSniper]

106. Ditto.

[PoliticalAmazon]

129. I'm not voting against anyone. I will vote for the candidate I believe will...

...do the best job as president, and that person doesn't have to be annointed by one of the two major political parties.

Hillary will not get us out of Iraq. She voted to get us into Iraq, has been firmly behind that vote for years, has not made any real efforts to get troops out of Iraq, and only now says she wants to get the troops out of Iraq because she is running for office.

Most importantly, she has threatened Iran with nuclear obliteration. "Nuclear obliteration of a Middle East country" and "getting our troops out of the Middle East" are two mutually exclusive concepts: one cannot be true unless the other is false.

Look to what she has done. That will be the biggest prediction of what she will do when in office.

[KaptBunnyPants]

66. We never will be if we do as you suggest.

nm

[PerpetuallyDazed]

72. Change happens in increments.

...not instantaneously..

[KaptBunnyPants]

87. Sometimes. And sometimes a seismic even occurs that shifts the political landscape.

I submit that the overturning of the popular mandate on racial grounds is one of those events. The Democratic Party, as it exists, is strongly based on African American support. This event would sever the ties between black people and the Democratic Party, a 50+ alliance that is the source of some of the most inspiring events in the Party's history. The Party cannot be as it was; it will either be an openly racist Party headed by the previous ruling class of the pro-business faction, or it can accept that times have changed and a more liberal populace has selected a new set of leaders. Clinton's argument is that these new leaders can't deliver in November like they did in the 90's. How's she going to deliver today without black people?

This is the chance to put Nader to the test. He says the Party is so broken that it cannot be reformed internally. If they were to overturn the popular mandate or change the rules to benefit the establishment candidate, then Nader will have been proven right. We will see just how corrupt and broken the party is, but if it is exposed, then that makes this time a tremendous opportunity for real change. A strong third Party showing would do to the DLC what McGovern did for liberals. And if the Democratic Party finally proves that it cannot be reformed, then it can be replaced.

[Duke Newcombe]

110. "If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you'll always gotten"

One man's "pragmatism" is another man's "paralysis"

Duke

[PerpetuallyDazed]

112. Kerry v. Bush was the first election

I was eligible to vote. I was a Clarkie but voted for Kerry GE. I even campaigned for the guy. I've ALWAYS voted for the Democratic nominee... are you saying I should not next time around??

[Duke Newcombe]

114. I believe you might have missed my point a bit...

I'm saying that if we rationalize voting for anyone with a "D" behind their name just because they have a "D" behind their name, regardless of their moral or ethical faults, we'll continue to get not merely broken, but unacceptably morally bankrupt individuals--because we sent a green light to them that their "politics of the low" is acceptable.

Again, no one with a "D" behind their name is "owed" my vote, regardless of what kind of person they are.

Duke

[PerpetuallyDazed]

121. I'm not saying to look past Clinton's faults, or even excuse them

I'm saying vote against McCain. Do not abstain from the process because the other guy doesn't follow YOUR moral compass. You realize, I'm sure, that ALL politicians are morally bankrupt and to varying degrees... where does McCain and Clinton fall on that spectrum? Do you think that she is more ethically deprived than he is? That's my point--doing the greater good for your country, not yourself.

[Duke Newcombe]

133. If staying true to core morals is superceded by "Party and Country"

...then we as a Party are doomed.

Doesn't this seem hauntingly familiar during history, to sublimate personal morals for "the greater good"? Perhaps a rethink of this strategy is in order.

Duke

[mattomjoe]

131. That also reminds me of the definition of "insanity"....

"doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"

[Duke Newcombe]

134. Except that a lot of DUers here are cool with the same result...

...as long as that result has the right letter after their name. Sad.

Duke

[sellitman]

81. She is not bush.

Not by a long shot.

Don't delude yourself.

I hope to hell Obama wins but she is the only other realistic option.

[PoliticalAmazon]

83. She is worse than Bush. Bush never threatened nuking another country...

...and he never openly and repeatedly pandered to bigots.

So Hillary is worse than Bush Jr, and that is quite an accomplishment.

[PerpetuallyDazed]

86. So, you think the possible changes that could come about during a Clinton presidency

are likely going to be more negative than positive? Worse than Bush's reign even?

[Upton]

88. The last Clinton presidency cost us Congress

that's pretty negative if you ask me.

[PerpetuallyDazed]

91. Still better option than McCain. n/t

[Duke Newcombe]

108. Having a Clinton presidency that costs us Congress again...

...is better than McCain? I'm not sure how that's of benefit to America.

Duke

[PerpetuallyDazed]

115. Look, there's the possibility it might not happen

It's pretty clear what McSame aims to do his term. Really, how is this concept so hard to grasp? Is my logic that off? If so, please explain it to me...

[Duke Newcombe]

117. Aside that I abhor HRC, don't taint other Dems and their chances with her candidacy...

...that's what I'm saying.

Duke

[PoliticalAmazon]

130. WHY is Hillary a better option than McCain? n/t

[PoliticalAmazon]

128. Look at how Hillary has voted, what she has endorsed, who she has served...

...in the Senate.

If you are an Indian corporation that deals in outsourcing American jobs to India, you will do GREAT in a Hillary administration.

She's already indicated that a large portion of the Democratic Party "doesn't count" simply because they won't vote for her. Our needs won't be served, that's for sure.

Bush has not yet nuked another country. Hillary, before she is even in the Oval Office, has threatened to nuke millions of people in Iran. Hillary embraces and promotes the idea that bigotry controls who will be in the White House.

Those are two huge negatives that we did not have to deal with in Bush Jr.

I think there is more potential for her to do bad than there is for her to do good. She has not served the interests of the people since she has been in the Senate. I don't expect her to change her stripes and become a born-again people's president.

[Exilednight]

92. You're right, she's not Bush. She's worse. She pretends to be a Democrat......................

while acting like a rethug.

[PerpetuallyDazed]

95. ...And you seriously identify as a Democrat?

:banghead:

I suppose it begs the question: is it better to PRETEND to be a Democrat or NOT BE a Democrat? The way I see it, even if you are pretending you have a better chance of following Democratic values/principles than IF YOU ARE A REPUBLICAN.

[Exilednight]

97. Yes, I'm a Democrat. I'm a Democrat who still holds the party principles and does not buy into.....

the DLC - rethug lite - triangulation, third-way politics. Hillary does not represent the party of FDR, no more than any rethug represents the party of the Lincoln.

[knixphan]

65. Hey, I wouldn't be thrilled about voting for Hill

But I'd bring my clothespin and my VaporRub, and fight my gag-reflex to pull the lever for her, as the lesser of two evils - if ONLY for SCOTUS appointments.

A pres can be replaced in 4 years - Supremers are for life.

*(Then, I'd volunteer to work for Obama/Boxer '12...)

[LWolf]

73. Okay. You, personally, are assigned

to shadow every DUer on November 2nd and report to the shadow moderators which DUers didn't show up at the polls so that they can be tombstoned.

:rofl:

While you're at it, better peek over their shoulders to see who they vote for.

:sarcasm:

[PerpetuallyDazed]

80. I refuse to accept any neutrality on this issue

McCain cannot win. You may not care about the direction of the country, but I do. So I AM going to continue advocating for the Democratic party, regardless of who the nominee is...

[PoliticalAmazon]

85. How others vote is not yours to "accept" or reject. n/t

[PerpetuallyDazed]

89. Watch me.

I'll continue to argue or do whatever I legally can to keep McCain from becoming president.

[PoliticalAmazon]

127. If there is a viable candidate people want to vote for, McCain won't be president...

...That means, if Hillary frauds her way to the candidacy, McCain will win.

Get a clue. PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO VOTE FOR HILLARY. They sure as hell don't want to be forced to vote for her because she is the one on the ticket.

[LWolf]

99. I'm not sure what connection, if any, your remarks have

to my reply to the OP.

Are you volunteering to be the shadow DU police?

Of course, suggesting that I don't care about the direction of the country is libelous, as well as false.

If I didn't care, it wouldn't matter to me who ended up the nominee, or who ended up as President.

Since you seem interested, I'll tell you that I care more about the country than I do the party.

A political party is a tool to effect policy that affects the nation positively. When that tool is broken, or is misused, it is counterproductive.

I'll always support issues before party, and party when the party earns it by working for issues.

So what, exactly, does all of that have to do with someone ranting about who deserves a tombstone at DU, and who doesn't?

[PerpetuallyDazed]

102. When I see it, I'll call it out

but no, I'm not volunteering to kick ass and take names for the benefit of DU.

HOWEVER, I will continue to promote the Democratic party, here, in this lovely forum called Democratic Underground. (Kind've ironic, isn't it?)

I like to vote issues, too, but I'm more pragmatic about it; I realize the best ones come from the Democrats and so, again, I will continue to promote the Democratic party. I hope others here will continue to do the same.

[LWolf]

105. Well, there is one area of agreement.

While the best ideas on issues don't always come from the Democratic Party, they sure as hell don't come from republicans.

If you are going to be honest, you'll acknowledge that the party's BEST is consistently marginalized by the party power holders.

Until power is not contested between two mega parties, I fight for the integrity of the Democratic Party.

That means that I hold the party accountable for those issues, and for performance in office. That's the way to keep the party healthy, imo, and I wish more partisans realized that.

It's also the reason why I will fight to the end for a brokered convention and a decent nominee that is not one of the current two.

I don't think either can win in November, and I'd like to see a Democratic victory.

[Butch350]

96. It's...

McCain for me if Hill and wild Bill continue to drag the campaign thru the mud.

Some of the attacks are just pitiful. I am firmly convinced that the Clintons will
use any low blow tactics to win. I know it politics - but the Clintons are taking this
lower than just polictics.

Don't worry I won't sit at home - my polling place is right next door to me. I will be
the first in line to vote for McCain on Presidential Election Day.

At least I know what I'll be getting from the Repubs - Democrats are becoming self destructive,
and that argument that Barack can't get the white working class vote - well too bad for the white working class then - it'll be their loss. What happened with Kerry and Gore.

Yep...good ole boy killer Cain is starting to look pretty damn good to me.

Besides...let the repubs clean up their mess - so when a Democrat accidently gets elected in some decade - then the lucky Dem won't have to clean up to big of a mess. (I HOPE)

ps
Personally, I think McCain is gonna win anywho.

[PerpetuallyDazed]

104. Please! McCain is an absolute idiot

She's far more intelligent than he is. And, at least Clinton SAYS she will get us out of Iraq (eventually), among other things!!!

McCain is far worse than she is.. please think this through before you turn your back on us..

[Butch350]

98. Sellitman -- All the idiots who stay home after 8 years of Republican rule

Calling people idiots?! Well, exlain just how you have suffered the past eight years?

I love a good hard-luck-story.

[sellitman]

109. I guess its been good for you then.

In hindsight calling people who won't compromise their lofty principles to put a Democrat in office make idiots look smart.

There is no perfect candidate but I know without a doubt it ain't McBush.

[Butch350]

111. 109. I guess its been good for you then.

I guess we lower ourselves to insults, when no other intelligent reply can be made.

You deserve the term IDIOT. But look at it this way, at least your one notch better than
me but it's ironic we're in the same boat. :)

[Butch350]

113. Sellitman --

Even after the insult - you still haven't explained how you've suufered the past 8 years.

I don't think you've really sufferd, I think your just holding firm to the "Status Quo".

You not ready for any change and something new - your gonna just whore yourself to a dying
Dem Party.

[Diana Prince]

122. Your profile says vote Democratic

Take your own advice. I in no way like Hillary, but I will vote for her if she is the nominee.

If you want a hard-luck-story, I can share with you. No job, no insurance, losing home next month, can't give my children the extras (hell not even the basics). Wanna hear more? This is why I will vote for whoever is on the Dem. ticket.

[Butch350]

126. 122. Your profile says vote Democratic

Not any more. Read the rest of my signature. That will never be changed!

[Duke Newcombe]

103. I don't think so...

No Dem is "owed" my vote because of the "D" after their name. If I cannot justify to myself in good conscience voting for candidate X because I believe them to be morally and ethically bankrupt, I won't. For me, "sullied, but Democrat" rationalizations and compartmentalizations just don't cut it.

Why anyone cannot understand why I refuse to violate my ethics or morals by supporting someone I find reprehensible (and not merely disagree with) is beyond me.

Duke

[PerpetuallyDazed]

116. As another poster pointed out...

Conservatives also live in an absolutist world. What's wrong with that, you ask? This is why "Wars on Terror" happen.

[Duke Newcombe]

120. Non sequitir--

Interesting, your silly "guilt by association" argument.

I voted for the "sullied", broken Bill Clinton. Twice. But there is a point where a candidate goes beyond that I cannot just "hold my nose" and "take one for the team". I've reached it with HRC.

How using that level of discernment puts me in the same league with the spooky "Conservatives" or makes me an "absolutist" is beyond me. But do go on. :shrug:

Duke

[PerpetuallyDazed]

123. Actually, no

Typical "progressives" (liberals) don't usually share that black-and-white kind of perspective. Some, like me, think you can still vote your principles/morals but in a pragmatic way; like voting Democratic over Republican/not voting.

[Duke Newcombe]

124. Welcome to the Party of the Big Tent (tm), Dazed. eom

Duke

[Fox Mulder]

118. If she cheats her way to a win, I will NOT vote for her.

[Cha]

119. Why the fuck would I stay home?

I'm going to vote for Obama.

[mattomjoe]

132. We have officially become what we oppose

"Even if she cheats, lies and strong arms her way to the ticket I will vote for her."

How can anyone read such goose-stepping nonsense like this and believe otherwise?

[Duke Newcombe]

135. FREEKIN'. THANK. YOU.!!!!!

Finally, someone gets it.

Duke