Meet the Press: Sounds like Dean is changing his tune

[my3boyz]

Now he is saying that the Super D's don't have to consider the elected delegates. They will consider who is most electable. Sounds like Hillary's argument to me. He did dismiss the idea of popular vote. He did add that as long as he has been going to conventions that the super delegates have not voted against what the elected delegates said. However, Tim asked him several times over and over again if the Super D's could basically overlook who had the most support (meaning elected,popular votes,etc) and he said yes. He was also asked did he think there would be damage if they took it away from the person with most pledged delegates and Dean said we should not look at it like that. He said the rules say the most delegates. My question is: Why have people vote if you are not going to listen to what their answer was (through elected delegates and popular vote).

[GoldieAZ49]

1. Nothing new he said it before

They can change at any time, for any reason. Capiche?

Endorsements are non-binding, even pledged delegates are not required to vote for who they are pledged to. Read the RULES of the party.

Dean says superdelegates are free agents

"They should use whatever yardstick they want," Dean said in an interview at party headquarters. "That's what the rules provide for."

Asked about Hillary Rodham Clinton's suggestion that superdelegates should exercise independent judgment and not feel bound by the standings after June 3 -- the day the nominating season ends -- Dean replied: "That's what the rules say, and I enforce the rules."

snip


Still, the chairman rejected the notion that he or any other party leader -- Pelosi, Reid, former Vice President Al Gore or former President Carter -- could step in and unilaterally end the nominating contest.

"Name one person in the last 40 years who's done that," Dean said, leaning forward in his chair. "There's no power in the DNC to make people do things that the rules don't prescribe."

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-superdelegates2apr02,0,1542205.story

[4themind]

2. It's the way the system is set up now that...

the super del's have the POWER to do this, which is what I think dean was acknowledging. The super del's DO have the power to overlook who has the larger popular vote, or who has the lead in pledged dels. Now whether they SHOULD is a different question ; I know nancy pelosi said they should not, but at least from my recollection, Dean's contention (and I don't think it's changed much recently) was that the super dels (however they judge) should decide sooner rather than later. He probably wants to prevent disunity by discussing hypotheticals that he doesn't think have a good chance of happening anyway, but which COULD hinder unifying the party if the other side believe seems that the refs were "biased" (regardless of your or my thinking on the validity of this argument, that may be what dean is trying to prevent)

[HereSince1628]

3. The answer to your question is there needs to be the appearance of democracy

to keep the people from objecting to being ignored. So long as the people and the central committee are on the same page things go along swimmingly.

But there needs a way to "protect the Party" from its own popular support when the base departs from the 'wise' path known to the party insiders.

[antigop]

15. Bingo. n/t

[BootinUp]

4. SD's can consider everything any other voter considers

and vote accordingly.

[my3boyz]

5. Oh and he said the races is "nearly a TIE". YEAH right! Keep

spinning that one Dean.

[kentuck]

6. Dean is being pressured big time.

Hillary is presently ahead in Super Delegates, lest we forget.

[my3boyz]

7. She has lost 100 super delegate lead..they are trending towards Obama. nt

[kentuck]

14. How did she get a 100 super delegate lead?

We shoud not assume that the majority of SD's left are for Obama? The average voter does not understand the cmplex details of pledged delegates, super delegates, etc. If they are told that Hillary won the most delegates, they will accept that as offical.

[GoesTo11]

70. Most of her lead was among non-elected party officials

[madfloridian]

24. NOT TRUE...she only has 22 SDs ahead now.

Please get your facts straight before you bloviate.

[cali]

10. she's lost her huge SD lead

In the past 3 months he's received 9x the number of SD delegates as hill, and Dean is saying what he's always said.

[dbmk]

8. Can't see him changing tune

Thats whats he has been saying the entire time. So if asked directly if they have to take pledged delegates into account his answer is obviously going to be no.

He has been completely consistent on adhering to the rules. I like him for that. The current administration has done enough rulebending to last centuries.

[goclark]

13. What part of his regular message has he changed?

:crazy:

Seems some on this thread are claiming he is saying that they are tied.

[my3boyz]

17. Claiming? He did say they were essentially tied. nt

[mac2]

9. Dean is a DLC hack

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mac2]

12. Does it matter?

The "selection" was made long ago.

[saltpoint]

20. uh, no.

[Melinda]

45. That's just so untrue; Dean is NOT DLC, not now, not ever! Did you simply misspeak or deliberately.....

not tell the truth?

Howard Dean and the DLC:

"Tree weeks ago, Dean dismissed the Democratic Leadership Council as "the Republican wing of the Democratic Party." Clinton once led the centrist DLC, which provided many of the ideas and personnel for his campaigns and administration. Further, Dean has promised to send members of Congress, Democrats included, scurrying like "cockroaches" if he is elected.

Then, last week, the former Vermont governor left no doubt that his campaign is almost as much a challenge to the Democratic Party establishment and Clinton as it is to President Bush.

"We can change this country, but we can't do that until we change the Democratic Party," Dean told cheering supporters here at a winery.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/politics/20040113-9999_1n13dean.html

Howard Dean’s campaign first took on water after Al Gore endorsed Dean for president on December 9, 2003. Hailed by many in the mainstream press as a huge boost to Dean’s bid, the endorsement came at the same exact moment Democratic insiders were meeting to discuss how to sink his advances. For they knew he was a potential threat to the Clinton Democrats.

Theories of why Gore endorsed Dean spread like fire through the media. As political commentator Adam Nagourney told Gwen Ifill on PBS’s Newshour on the day of the endorsement: “One is that what is going on here is a proxy war between the Clintons and the Gores over the future of the Democratic Party. I think there is an element of truth to that. I don't think we want to exaggerate that.”

He was right. The war had begun. Verbal bombs dropped -- with one target in sight: the future of the Democratic Party. Dean was out for establishment blood, and Gore gladly went along for the ride. “Howard Dean was assassinated in broad daylight. Unlike Kennedy's ‘grassy knoll,’ Dean's killers are not hiding -- it was the Democratic Party itself, and more specifically the Democratic Leadership Council, that successfully went after and sabotaged his candidacy … The DLC reacted with fury to … going all out to torpedo his momentum,” Naeem Mohaiemen correctly opined on Alternet.org following Dean’s presidential death.

“Although Democratic nominees soon piled on the ‘bash Dean’ bandwagon, earlier attacks were carried out by DLC operatives. There was even the smell of scandal when two top Democratic candidates were found sharing information about Dean in an attempt to slow him down.”

“But the great myth of the current cycle,” DLC leaders Al From and Bruce Reed wrote in a May 15, 2003 memo, “is the misguided notion that the hopes and dreams of activists represent the heart and soul of the Democratic Party … What activists like Dean call the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party is an aberration: the McGovern-Mondale wing, defined principally by weakness abroad and elitist, interest-group liberalism at home.”

No doubt it was scandalous. But there was more to the drama than Dick Gephardt and John Kerry passing notes under the table and the DLC crying foul. In fact, Democratic insiders with deep ties to the DLC began funding campaign ads against Dean, hoping to bring his campaign to a screeching halt.
http://www.counterbias.com/561.html

I don't know if you did this deliberately or are just truly ignorant about the relationship (ha!) between Dean and the DLC, but please get the facts straight before you post... lies have a way of rising to the top and then being cut off at the knees.

[mac2]

80. Me thinks he does protest too much.

[Melinda]

82. So say that instead of claiming he's a DLC hack which is just blatantly untrue, sheese.

The two are not even remotely related. I don't know you, haven't seen you on DU before, but fwiw, boy have you made a :wtf: impression.

Cya around.

[Guaranteed]

63. And you're a fucking moron. nt

[lojasmo]

69. Stupidest post of the fucking day.

And this place is FULL of delusional clinton supporters today, too. Congratulations.

[LSK]

85. LOL

THATS THE FUNNIEST THING I HAVE READ ALL DAY!!!! MAYBE ALL WEEK AND ALL MONTH!!!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[NoodleyAppendage]

16. BULLSHIT. "Tim, that is NOT MY PERSONAL VIEW..." n/t

Just watched his interview with Timmeh and he DID NOT ENDORSE CHANGING THE RULES in Clinton's favor. Timmeh raised the prospect, not Dean, and I quote, "Tim, that is NOT my personal view..."

J

[saltpoint]

18. Dean knows Clinton has lost the nomination but must navigate a

perilous stream that promotes Obama without alienating support from Clinton supporters, and not just "superdelegates," but Democrats of all stripes and alignments down to the County level of organizing, since that is where we will win or lose this election.

[MBS]

47. Right you are. n/t

[IsItJustMe]

68. No doubt, he is walking on a razor's edge. He must watch every word he says, as to not alienate

anyone. I would not like to be in his shoes right now.

[madfloridian]

19. Not true....he quoted the rules and then gave his own opinion.

Stop misrepresenting.

The rules say...I say.

Stop the lies.

[madfloridian]

21. Shame on you. I came here to DU and I feel dirty. It was a fair and gracious interview.

This place is toxic.

[madfloridian]

22. The rules do say that.....Dean has to quote the rules.

That has posted here many times.

I hate the lies here.

[Pisces]

23. Dean is spineless!!!!!

[Guaranteed]

65. Watch the stupid show. The OP is spinning. Dean was great. nt

[madfloridian]

25. You should not get away with posting such a lie after such a good interview.

People who care about truth should speak up.

[hisownpetard]

56. I have not seen the interview yet, but you have 100% credibility in my eyes, so I don't

doubt your interpretation.

Thanks for all the good work you do, madfloridian.

:thumbsup: :hi:

Don't give up!

[Guaranteed]

61. Mad, Dean did an OUTSTANDING job in that interview, and people

who watched it know that.

Don't worry so much! :P

[madfloridian]

64. It's not worry...it's anger that DU's credibility has gone so low

as to have post after post not telling the truth.

I think Obama is our nominee, but I think DU can be a battleground to tarnish him...just as it was to tarnish Dean in 03 and 04.

I see it coming to that.

So it's anger.

Yes, it was a great interview.

[Guaranteed]

66. It's now the Dems' jobs to limit Clinton's influence as much as possible.

She wants to destroy our candidate, and we can't let her do that.

[mac2]

81. Don't you think that is up to the voters? No party leader or

an opposition party supporter should have that power in a democracy.

[book_worm]

26. he has always said this. The SD will not vote against the will of the people

they will also look at who will bring out voters to help candidates down the ticket. Hillary won't--Obama will.

[Jawja]

27. "Tim asked him several times over and over again

if the Super D's could basically overlook who had the most support"

Yep. Another crony gasbag in the Corporate Media (aka Tim Russert) pushing the "Hillary can still win" spin for the GOP in support of their agenda to ensure a divided Democratic Party going into the GE. :eyes:

on edit: Tim Russert is the GOP crony.

[madfloridian]

28. It is technically true...they can. But he also said over and over they never had.

Coming to DU makes me feel like I need to go take a bath. The lies prevail here

[Jawja]

29. Yes it is true they can.

But they won't. The GOP has an agenda to keep Hillary's candidacy alive; their ultimate goal is for her to get the nomination by a Super Delegate coup at the convention. Then Rush Limbaugh can get his wet dream with riots at the convention and the GOP faces a devastated Democratic Party going into the GE and the American People are guaranteed 4 more years of war crimes and profiteering.

[madfloridian]

31. You accused Dean of being a GOP crony.

That is not true.

[sniffa]

32. I thought it was Timmy being called that

Perhaps I interpreted wrong. :shrug:

[madfloridian]

33. If true, then I misunderstood.

I thought I would see a decent post at DU after a fair and thoughtful interview. He stuck to rules, he stood his ground.

Instead I come here and see a lie right away. If I misunderstood the post I am sorry.

[Jawja]

40. You didn't.

I was accusing Russert of being a GOP crony.

Sorry if I wasn't clear.

[Jawja]

39. No I did not.

I was calling Russert a GOP crony. He was pushing Dean to say that the Party's Super Delegates could ignore the delegate count.

that's what I am referring to.

[madfloridian]

41. Thanks, I misread.

:hi:

[Jawja]

42. I can't stand Tim Russert.

:hi:

[okasha]

38. Irony-challenged, aren't you?

n/t

[madfloridian]

43. I am challenged by figuring out your statement.

Doesn't make sense.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madfloridian]

50. I consider that a personal attack.

I do not make stuff up and post it like some have been doing here.

I post facts and I have sources.

It does leave a slimy feeling after being here somedays.

But you can not blame me for it.

[sniffa]

52. You should alert on it

I went to printer friendly, and yep, that's a PA.

[madfloridian]

53. I did. I hope others try to stop stuff like this toward anyone.

:hi:

[okasha]

54. Call the WAHmbulance.

Go look in the mirror while you're waiting.

[madfloridian]

57. That is just so cutesy.

Shows such a broad range of .....I was going to say intellectual thinking...but I won't go there.

[okasha]

59. You've never been there, cupcake.

n/t

[Kurovski]

78. You're wrong, flapjack.

madfloridian gets more respect for intellectual honesty here than say, a Senator Clinton ever will.

[Breeze54]

30. He was talking about the rules... he didn't make them!!

:silly:

[Life Long Dem]

34. Sounds and IS are two different things.

Especially coming from a Clinton supporter.

[Hart2008]

35. Maybe he wants to win a majority of the popular vote for the first time since 1964.

It is hard for a candidate to have long coattails without getting a majority of the popular vote.

The Dem's should be killing McCain in the polls now, and we are not.

[Barack_America]

36. Meanwhile, the DNC moves into "general election mode" and hammers out a deal with Obama...

To share the revenue he rakes in with the DNC.

Do I worry when Dean uses conciliatory language towards Clinton supporters? No.

[Buzz Clik]

37. As a matter of rules and procedures, the Supers could overturn the elected delegates.

That is simply the fact.

There are also consequences for doing such things.

[cyndensco]

44. I saw just minutes of his interview and I found it disturbing.

He did seem, to me, to be taking hillary's position - the SDs will choose the most electable candidate. (Honestly, though, I can not comprehend how ANYONE can believe she is more electable - I just don't see it like that}.

The part I caught was about the black vote. 90% of us voted for Gore, and some 80+% voted for Kerry. My initial reaction was, if hillary did somehow become the democratic nominee, perhaps this is the year I should elect NOT to vote the way I have all my life. Maybe if black folk split the vote, or stay home, in the future our vote will not be taken for granted.

[Guaranteed]

62. Which was what Russert was asking about.

But Dean's not letting that happen. He's officially neutral, and the SD's can vote any way they want, but they know that if they overturn the voters there will be HELL to pay. It would destroy the party.

They'll go with Obama, don't worry about it.

[goclark]

71. I would vote the rest of the ticket under that scenerio nt

[suston96]

46. Obama has won mostly red states with enough black voters to win among democrats. In Novenmber....

...those states will stay red. That is what the superdelegates and every other Democrat should be looking at.

And while we are at it, we had better keep our eyes and minds on the congressional races, or we risk losing there also - at the very least, making no gains.

That would mean continued gridlock - especially in the Senate.

[madfloridian]

49. Here's the video of MTP in segments...make your own decision

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/24338024#24337977

[BklynChick]

51. I just watched it. Not what he said at all. In fact, Russert kept trying to bait him into saying

it and he was very strong in not saying it.

[mdmc]

55. Dean is stating facts - the superdelegates are powerful and don't

need to follow the voters. They were put in place to keep the voters in line

[mac2]

73. Is this democracy for the party?

"They were put in place to keep the voters in line."

You mean delete our vote and choice? Millions of us just "put in line"?

[oasis]

58. Superdelegates act as a safety net for the party after a long primary season.

Ever heard of buyer's remorse?

[mac2]

72. That's a poor excuse to use unelected party members

who decide for us.

[oasis]

75. "Decide for us"? They are us. (eom)

[mac2]

76. They don't have my vote nor did I elect them to represent me

or what is important to me in this election. They are "selected". Fact is their vote counts more than mine and will be negated by them.

[oasis]

77. They are trusted party stalwarts who operatre in the best interest of

the party. Party cheiftains don't have time to go around asking for the approval of rank and file members before making these appointments.

[mac2]

79. That's what dictators say.

[mac2]

83. Then how do explain running Joe Lieberman for VP with

Gore? We should have won that election hands down if not for the "first Jewish VP religious nut". Was that a good decision by the "party chieftains"? Even our own party members had a good idea of who Joe was.

Nope I don't trust their judgment to appoint who is good for America. Some even tossed out of office by voters in the past.

[mdmc]

60. Dean is telling the truth - this isn't his idea, it is the DNC

:toast:

[madfloridian]

67. Transcript....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24338217/

[HooptieWagon]

74. Depends how the campaigns define "electable":

Obama campaign: "Electable" = ability to hire competent staff, ability to generate large number of voluteer grass roots supporters, able to raise large amounts of money from a large donor-base, able to strategize and use those resources wisely, currently the leader in PDs, total delegates, polls, popular vote, and states won.

Hillary campaign: "Electable" = "I'm not black", "He might be a muslim", and "It's my entitlement".

[HopeforChange]

84. Dean is throwing Obama under the Bus and helping Clinton do it