Bill Maher On Hillary's Candidacy...

[ElboRuum]

Last night I was watching Bill Maher and, you know, most of the time I agree with him, sometimes I do not.

Now here's my quandary. Last night he said something that I agree with, in principle, and I still have misgivings about whether it is the right thing to do or not.

You see, he suggested that Hillary Clinton should be permitted to continue her campaign for as long as she feels like she has a chance. In principle, I have no quarrel with this. Who could? Taken at its face value, who could blame anyone for not conceding defeat when there is still room for victory. Now I know there are those who take the math and say "it's impossible" and maybe they're right, but there is a little bit of suspicion in the back of my mind that "the math" is going to be of the fuzzy kind if this should go all the way through to August.

Like I said. I agree with this in principle.

Pragmatically, though, I see that this principle may be used as the cudgel with which the Democratic party is beaten with in November.

Howard Dean is correct that if this primary gets too bloody, and I am of the opinion that it's been past that high water mark for a while now, the amount of healing this party will have to do to show a unified front come November may be an insurmountable amount given the time that remains.

I know how strident we all are in our opinions here, and I certainly know that there will be hard feelings on one side or the other once the candidate is decided. I see that timeframe between the hard feelings and acceptance as an unavoidable liability. The sooner it happens, the sooner damage control can begin, and the sooner we can get on message to beat McCain.

Look. I want to say that Hillary has a chance. I want to say that I support her campaign enough to let it continue. But I cannot do so without looking at the collateral damage it will inevitably cause, damage that WE... WE the people of this country cannot afford if it gets McCain elected. And that's when me and Hillary part company.

The ball is in her court. She deserves every opportunity. But I'm not sure I respect someone who is willing to sink the ship because she couldn't be captain. It's small. It's juvenile. It's painfully childish. And haven't we had about 8 years too many of that?

JMHO...YMMV...YADAYADAYADA...ETC...WHATEVER.

[wurzel]

1. Maher doesn't get it.

Clinton is being kept in this race by Republicans. Just like Leiberman and for the same reason. Exactly where did the $10m she supposedly raised after PA vote come from?

[LSparkle]

2. Excellent point ...

She is seeming more and more like Lieberman every day.

[ElboRuum]

3. I'm not willing to accuse one of our own without proof...

and maybe we should all be a little circumspect about it unless we know more... that said... I find it suspicious and it wouldn't be the first time (Joe Lieberman) that a Democrat turned coat just for their own political gain.

[AdHocSolver]

6. There is enough circumstantial evidence for a unanimous conviction.

Clinton is definitely working for a McCain victory. There can be no other conclusion.

The question is what she hopes to accomplish with that. There are only two possibilities.

One, McCain wins in 2008 and Hillary runs for president in 2012. This scenario I refer to as Plan B. However, an Obama loss due to a backstabbing Hillary candidacy in 2008 could fracture the party enough so that no Democrat could win in 2012.

Two. Clinton is positioning herself to implement Plan C. Plan C calls for the Republican Party leadership to anoint Hillary Clinton as McCain's V-P running mate. McCain serves one term and then steps aside for his V-P to run for president in 2012.

The evidence most strongly supports Plan C as the Clinton game plan. Her sucking up to Richard Mellon Scaife and all the other right-wingers seemed to me to be a lot like a job interview.

[ElboRuum]

12. Keep this up...

...and I'll have to start fishing around for my tinfoil hat.

I'm sorry, but I just don't believe that you've addressed the simplest likelihood. The Occam's-Razor-satisfying Plan... D... I guess... if we stick to your nomenclature.

Hillary Clinton wants to be President more than she wants a Democratic victory. This is not to say that she wants a Republican victory, far from it. It's simply the ego that fuels her campaign. Perhaps it's a sense of entitlement to the office. Perhaps it's that "First Woman President" title to cement her place historically. I don't think she CARES about the party enough to willfully destroy it, at least not enough to let it get in the way of her satisfying HER personal goals, in which case its collateral damage and therefore, somehow, acceptable.

[Rageneau]

4. Hillary should play by the rules and stay in.

There's nothing in the rules that says she has to drop out, just as there's nothing in the rules that says the Florida and Michigan delegations have a right to be seated. Of course we could INSIST they be seated. If so, maybe the nomination would be decided more easily.

Same thing's true for Hillary: It might be easier to pick a nominee if she dropped out, but the rules don't say she has to, so she shouldn't. Rules are rules.

[wurzel]

7. What if she is being kept in the race by Republicans?

Whose "rules"?

[ElboRuum]

9. In my experience...

Rules are rules. That is quite right. But no one's asking her to "break" the rules in any way. Like I said, I recognize her right to stay in and if this is the course she chooses to take, then she has done nothing wrong.

Let me be plain, though. Just because you've done nothing wrong does not mean that you've done something right. This has nothing to do with rules or breaking them or not breaking them. It has to do with doing something which may be against your own goals to serve a larger, more important one. I see that a Democrat being sworn in as President on January 20th, 2009 as a much more important goal than either candidate's individual goal of earning that office.

If Hillary proceeds in a manner which does not make it more difficult for whomever the nominee ends up being to win, then she's got my support, if not for her candidacy, for her desire to pursue it. Bear in mind that she's not precisely shown me that this is a way that she wants to proceed.

I'm not suggesting she's breaking the rules. I'm suggesting she consider whether her candidacy is worth it if it splits the party too close to the November election.

[DefenseLawyer]

5. Maher is a contrarian

His stock in trade as a comic is to go against the grain. Sometimes he is astute when he does this, sometimes not. I have generally found that if a subject gets a little too deep or complicated or unfunny, he just says "fuck you" and goes the opposite way. Huffington pointed out the real issue, in my opinion. Practically no one would be telling her to "get out" if she wasn't running such a destructive, "rovian" campaign. It's not that she is staying in, it's how she is staying in.

[ElboRuum]

11. Ding. We have a winner.

Precisely. If she was running on her merits as a candidate alone than I would be supportive of her continued run. (and bear in mind, when you are in the same party, I do expect better decorum with respect tactical decisions than I would between opposing party candidates in the GE). Bill just doesn't seem to get the idea that when its among members of the same party, NO ONE in that party is served by lambasting the opponent in a distinctly "dirty tricks" manner. There will be time enough for fearmongering and swiftboatings and the like when whoever does win the nomination faces McCain because you can bet the onslaught will be fierce and unflinching, but it has no place in a primary.

[Bensthename]

8. She has a right to stay in but it is costing the dems crucial time and $$$

We could be arguing about McCain and raising money for the nominee against McCain and maybe all becoming friends again. If this goes to August... We lose.

[frickaline]

10. Hillary deserves her shot and to take it away prematurely would hurt Obama's campaign

If Hillary's campaign were removed in violation to the rules of the DNC, Obama would no longer have a clear mandate. You need to be patient and let the process play out to its natural conclusion by the rules that were agreed to prior to this primary.

If you don't play by the rules, its not possible to win.

[ElboRuum]

13. You miss the point...

...this MUST be her decision to do. If it becomes obvious that her continued candidacy threatens to harm the party's chances in November, and if this primary goes on much longer the way it has, I believe it will, she should take it upon herself to make the decision to bow out and therefore STRENGTHEN Obama's campaign.

What I doubt is that she will do this. She wants a brokered convention, because it is her only real chance at getting the nomination. But I will say that Dean is correct, a brokered convention will be the death knell of this campaign regardless of who the nominee is.

For now, she should stay in, but she should absolutely keep her eye on the big picture and not lose sight of the overarching goal. With people as driven and focused as Hillary is, you have to sometimes remind them of what precisely the big picture is.

[uponit7771]

14. I don't like the WAY she's been running not THAT she's been running

[redqueen]

15. Exactly. If it weren't for the RW smears and constant lying, it wouldn't be an issue. (nt)

[ElboRuum]

17. Well, I guess that it's just a roundabout way of saying...

...what people who have been wanting her to hang it up have been saying all along. I mean, if she were running a spirited, yet fair campaign, with a little less acid spewed at her opponent, would we be worried about party factionalization right now? Would we then mind a protracted primary? Of course not. If it were a different campaign style, one with a nod to the idea that we're all on the same general side here and shouldn't be flaying each other in the press, then Hillary's continued campaigning would not be in question in any way.

[mkultra]

16. whatever, Clinton is done. Her actions from here out are masturbation

[ElboRuum]

18. Not so sure...

If there's one thing that I've learned to accept is the depths to which some will sink and the unholy alliances that some will create just to acquire and hold on to power. Huffington was quite right about the Rovian bent her campaign has shown, and one wonders just how far that road goes with her. I doubt we've seen the last of it, up to and including the convention itself.

[mkultra]

19. well, thats true

Im willing to believe that she could be setting up for 2012. but beyond that, no brilliance is possible.

[ElboRuum]

20. Shameless self-kick

You get one, right?

[Exultant Democracy]

21. Well Bill is more or less a libertarian and this is consistent with his views on personal freedom.

I guess I agree in principal that anyone should be able to run for anything as long as they want, but I also think that the Clinton's have accepted certain responsibilities to the welfare of the Democratic Party by virtue of the many positions they have held.

[breakaleg]

22. I'd say that people who question or discount the math don't understand it. Numbers aren't fuzzy.