Michigan Dems Propose Delegate Solution: Net +10 to Hillary

[tekisui]

DEMOCRATS IN Michigan want Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton and the Democratic National Committee to sign on to a compromise that would allocate a net of ten delegates to Hillary Clinton. Sen. Carl Levin, Rep. Carolyn Cheeks Kilpatrick,UAW President Ron Gettelfinger, and DNC Member Debbie Dingell outlined their proposal in a letter to Michigan's Dem chair, Mark Brewer.

The four want to allocate 69 pledged delegates to Hillary Clinton and 59 to Barack Obama. The approach splits the difference between the equal delegate proposal coming out of Chicago (g4(?) for each) and the 73-to-55 delegate split that the Clinton campaign would obtain from the results of the primary, with almost all of the uncommitted delegates being pledged to Obama. The four also write that they oppose the challenge by DNC member Joel Ferguson, which would give superdelegates a full vote and pledged delegates half of a vote.


Full letter with numbers and reasoning at link: http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/04/michigan_dems_propose_delegate.php

[Texas Hill Country]

1. sounds like a reasonable solution... Obama should take it.

[Barack_America]

3. Has it ever been up to Obama?

No. This is for the DNC to hash out.

[tekisui]

6. Yes, but the DNC has said that they would be willing to accept a deal,

if Hillary, Obama and MI Dems signed off on it.

[tekisui]

4. I agree, let's move past this.

[scheming daemons]

7. I'm fine with that.... her gaining +10 there helps him in the long run.....

[movonne]

21. I say hillary plus 3....after all Obama was not even on the ballot..

[my3boyz]

2. I think something like that might end up happening in Florida but NOT Michigan. He wasn't on the

ballot in Michigan.

[tekisui]

5. This seems reasonable. He can afford 10 delegates to Hillary.

And, if they all agree to it, it would greatly help to end this point of contention that has been created.

[Cha]

40. So that's real freakin' generous of the dinos

in Michigan.

Paul Kirk's(MA SuperDee who endorsed Obama http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5727692#5728225) open letter to the Pittsburgh-Gazette..

<snip>

"One "price" being considered for Florida and Michigan, both having ignored party rules on the timing of their primaries, is to nevertheless count their votes at what could be a determinative moment late in the calendar. But every candidate knew that neither state held a valid election, so no candidate should be able to claim an advantage from it.

It is equally untenable for our party to convene in Denver without Florida or Michigan being represented. But the answer is not to award them a do-over after they violated the rules. The fairest solution is to divide their delegations equally between the two candidates. The campaigns can work with the state parties to assure appropriate demographic representation.

<snip>

"We have rules. Everyone understood them at the outset. This is not a national primary; it is not a red-vs.-blue, caucus-vs.-primary or big state-vs.-small state competition. It's a state-by-state contest (some primary, some caucus, some big, some small) by which delegates are selected in proportional representation to the popular vote in each state.

Once the contests are over, do the math. By mid-June, we must unite behind the candidate who has won the most delegates under a process we all understood and approved in advance. After eight years of Bush-Cheney, if we cannot unite our constituencies behind the Democratic nominee, shame on us!"



http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08097/870671-109.stm

[Auntie Bush]

44. That was his choice and poor political savoy.

Hillary knows what she is doing! Obama would have lost if he was on the ballet and he was all too happy to delete himself and deny her a win.
Big of him! He'll get more delegates than he would have had he run...just like in FL.

[Zhade]

53. More horseshit. She agreed to take her name off too and reneged on her pledge.

Such dishonesty from clinton supporters - are you trying to BE your candidate by emulating her lies?

[AllentownJake]

8. Deal

Sounds good to me. They should take this but Hillary will never do it. She needs the MI and Florida issue on the table to justify still being in the race.

[NeedleCast]

9. Obama Would Probably Take This Deal

Hillary will not. It would remove one of the last straws she's grasping at.

[CakeGrrl]

10. I think the DNC should offer this and that everyone should take it and END the issue

That won't much dent Obama's lead and it's better than the 55-0 delegate gain that Hillary was trying to steal from MI.

[FlyingSquirrel]

11. If they split the difference it should be 68.5 Hillary, 59.5 Obama

Why round up for her and down for Obama?

But it's a minor quibble. I would take it if I were Obama.

However it does not address the issue of a penalty for Michigan not following DNC rules so it's probably DOA unless Superdelegates are stripped from the state.

[Zachstar]

12. No

[SoCalDem]

13. If MI is stripped of its SDs, I don't mind that plan

SDs should NOT get their voted restored for FL or MI..

The super delegates were largely responsible for the trainwreck.. they should not be rewarded..


and the popular vote should also be thrown out as ANY measure of "a challenge"..

[Yael]

31. Regardless of what they come up with, I hope the SDs are out in the cold.

[crankychatter]

14. obama not even on the ballot? screw em

utterly reprehensible bullshit idea

on principle my answer is NO

not for love or money... who do they think they are?

[Lucky 13]

15. Fuck that.

His name wasn't even on the ballot. Why +10? Why not +5? or +15? This isn't a fucking guessing game.

[Poll_Blind]

17. Yep, totally arbitrary. n/t

PB

[dansolo]

56. Not arbitarry

It is in between what Obama's campaign requested and what the Clinton campaign requested. As long as the superdelegates are not given a vote, then Obama should accept this proposal. It would be in his best interests to accept this.

[Tellurian]

23. Obama removed his name from the ballot

no one forced him to do that! Obama doesn't deserve any votes from MI..

[Lucky 13]

33. He did so at the party's request - so did John Edwards.

Hillary signed the pledge with the rest of them and is the only one to try to go back on her word. If she had any objections THEN was the time to voice them - not only when it becomes clear it's to her political advantage.

Her MI argument is pathetic.

[Tellurian]

48. Hillary signed a pledge NOT to Campaign in either MI or FL..

She keep her pledge. The two states were still going to hold their Primary anyway. Obama decided by his own volition to remove his name from the Michigan ballot. Hillary did not. Hillary won in fair and square in Florida, Obama Lost..

Obama deserves nada, zero, zilch in MI. Hillary deserves the pledged delegates in Florida and all the delegates in MI..

[Zhade]

54. You just lied again. She pledged to take her name off the ballot.

NT!

[Tellurian]

57. Never..you just made up that lie..Go and stand in the corner till someone calls you!

Shame on you!

[Zhade]

64. HAHAHAHA!! "Shame on you" from a liar makes me PROUD, silly.

NT!

[Lucky 13]

55. Why should he be penalized for doing what the party asked of him?

Hillary deserves nada, zero, zilch in MI or FL.

No one is going to bend or break the rules for her. Dean, Pelosi, and Reid won't let it happen. THE PEOPLE won't let it happen. Everyone plays by the rules. Period.

And within the confines of those rules... SHE IS LOSING. She can't catch up. She'd need like 68% of the remaining delegates from all the remaining primaries. And she just can't do it.

What's more, the superdelegates are trickling out. Obama got 2 or 3 today. Expect it to ramp up between now and 5/5.

The math is closing in on her.

It ends in North Carolina.

See ya Tuesday.

[Tellurian]

58. Yes she Will and Yes she Can!

Fl and Mi voters are not going to be disenfranchised because poor pooty poot's nose is outta joint..

2 million people voted and their votes are GOING TO BE COUNTED!

Get Over it!
\

[Lucky 13]

59. Yes She WILL break the rules! Yes she CAN break the rules!

Are you scared about Tuesday? It's ok. You can tell me.

[Tellurian]

65. Hillary will beat BO by double digits..

now don't cry...

[Jersey Devil]

16. No deal - this type of compromise would be good for Fla, not Mich

Hillary violated her pledge and left her name on the ballot in Mich. She should not be rewarded for it.

[MadBadger]

18. I can take that, but the popular vote and superdelegates shouldnt count.

[Dyllyn]

19. Take the deal and end it for God;s sake and net her 20 from Florida sure it's all over anyway

[JasonHill]

20. What a horrible proposal

somehow Hillary should be afforded more recognized delegates in a completely illegitimate primary? Split, do-over, or nothing should be the only options and the split one should be only as a worst case scenero.

[bain_sidhe]

28. I agree!

Why should Obama get ANY delegates when he took his name off the ballot, which was NOT required.

I vote nothing, rather than that.

[JasonHill]

37. i dont know your posting history

are you saying that Obama alone should get nothing while Hillary should be afforded all the delegates? I hope you're not going down that completely devoid-of-principle angle because that would make you a vile propagandist.

If not, i apologize.

[bain_sidhe]

62. not a vile propagandist

No, I think that IF the delegates are seated, Hillary should get the delegates earned by her 55%, and the rest should be officially "uncommitted," because that's who "won" the other 45%. Now, as to who they actually *vote* for, well... I'm assuming they'll vote for Obama, even though a lot of the voters who voted for "uncommitted" were Edwards supporters. I'm just saying that they shouldn't be *given* to Obama, officially.

But my actual preference is that the Michigan delegation would be seated in terms of being able to "participate" in the convention (platform committee, rules committee, etc...) but not allowed to vote until the second ballot (if there is one).

My reasons are many, and this thread is kind of old so I'm not sure I want to get into it here. But the main point is that Michigan advanced its primary as a "protest" to the power of Iowa and New Hampshire always going first--the kind of power to extort the "pledge" from candidates that so many Obama supporters like to quote. I'm not really mad at Obama or Edwards for pulling their name off the ballot... what I'm mad about is that they felt it necessary to do so.

If everything ends up working out, then there's no cost, and no point. If we're going to be punished for advancing our primary, I'd like to see it at least get us some real reform to the primary calendar.

It's time for somebody else to have *their* issues front and center for the year leading up to the primaries. Doesn't have to be Michigan (in fact, that would be a bad idea.) Just somebody with different issues than Iowa. I'm frickin tired of hearing all the candidates extol the virtues of ethanol every four years. How about having them develop a *real* industrial/manufacturing policy? Or talk 24/7 about immigration policy? Water policy? Environmental policy? SOMETHING ELSE BESIDES ETHANOL!!!

er... </rant>

[olkaz]

22. Oh, so this is Democracy? This isn't disenfranchisement?

What a joke. This was never about those things. This is about getting delegates to Hillary, period.

What a great show you guys put on.

[ej510]

24. As long as their super delegates do not get a say I'm all for it.

[sandnsea]

25. No

Seat the delegates after the nominee is decided, after they have all been released to vote for the winner. What a bunch of shit to give Hillary more delegates when she is a lying swine for claiming them in the first place. This country is full of the biggest bunch of unethical shitheads imaginable.

[tekisui]

29. I agree, but she could end up taking it to court.

I'd hate to see it dragged through that. I would be willing to pay her off with 10 delegates to get her to STFU.

But, I can see that is really isn't a fair solution.

[sandnsea]

36. Take it to fucking court, goddamn, grow a spine n/t

[tekisui]

38. .

:thumbsup:

Let's go.

[kwenu]

49. SHE would LOSE in court!!!!!

[thoughtcrime1984]

26. I have no doubt Obama would beat Hil handily in MI, sounds like a bad deal

And would Michigan really feel like they counted in this scenario? The numbers are essentially plucked from thin air.

[jackson_dem]

35. Obama himself apparently had doubts...

[thoughtcrime1984]

43. Clicked on printer-friendly to see response

There are no doubts on his part, I am sure. What his goal is, as I'm sure is the DNC's goal as well, is to get these delegates seated in a way that is perceived as fair to all parties involved. In no way should FL or MI SD's count. I don't consider this arrangement to be particularly fair, but if all parties can live with it, then it will be. This primary cycle is all but over, regardless. Bring on McCain.

[Yael]

27. I hope they decline

If not, our next primaries will all be held on January 2nd. For sale to the highest bidder.

[tokenlib]

30. Let them squirm at least until June...

Seat the delegates..but make sure they have no impact on the nomination. Rules are rules and they broke them.

[bobbert]

32. That would be admitting defeat in MI

Hillary will use it to her aid as much as possible. I say hold off until June or you know you will have the pledged delegate lead with the comprimise, whichever is first.

[tekisui]

34. She already says she won Michigan, and no one calls her on it.

[Indenturedebtor]

42. Yeah don't give her underhanded bullshit any support

This would be a wink and a nod to her disgusting tactics. Man she disgusts me :puke:

[shugah]

39. well i want 69 pledged delegates allocated to Obama

and as a voter, i think i have the right to decide!

the thing is - there is no solution to the problem of MI.

and MI will remain blue in the GE no matter what.

[BlueIdaho]

41. Don't take the first offer

Take the second or third. Eventually - they will agree to 50/50 and so will HRC. Its the only way they get seats at the big show. There is NO way wither MI or FL should be allowed to decide who the nominee is. You break the rules - you pay a price.

[EndElectoral]

45. Absolutely ridiculous...Obama wasn't even on the ballot for people to vote. Why should she get more

[nyccitizen]

46. As an Obama supporter, sounds fine to me...

I think he should settle the FL and MI issues in ADVANCE and shut Hillary up about it once and for all. He should agree to this and also to sit FL as-is... he can say that he followed the rules fair and square (unlike Hillary) but he knows that all States must be seated for us to win in November. If he does this, she will only net around 50 delegates, not nearly enough to catch him, and he will look magnanimous and will come out the bigger candidate, as well as preventing Hillary from having any excuse "take it to the convention". The gesture may ultimately net him more superdelegates than it will cost him pledged delegates.

[nyccitizen]

47. Oh, BUT...

She must agree that she cannot apply the results of the election to any popular vote totals since he wasn't on the ballot.

[Zhade]

50. It's certainly more honest than some clinton supporters' insistence he receive NONE from MI.

NT!

[TexasObserver]

51. NO! Read my lips, Michigan. Down the middle or stay home!

Hey Michigan. You, yeah you, party leaders there. You did this. You violated the national rules knowing the result would be your delegates didn't count. You did this to yourself. And now you want us to reward your misconduct.

Go to hell, Democratic leaders of Michigan. We should split the delegation down the middle, and bar from voting at the convention the superdelegates from the state.

[ecstatic]

52. Obama would have won MI. But if that's what it takes to shut

her ass up, so be it.

[Bensthename]

60. Sounds good. In the end Obama still wins.

[wileedog]

61. NO NO NO NO

She wants this to legitimize the popular vote in MI, even if his name wasn't on the ballot. Then she can used that tired argument even though he will now officially have zero votes coming from MI.

She has already lost delegates and she knows it, means nothing to her if she can fraudulently claim "more people voted for me"

[Kermit77]

63. You are exactly right. She wants to bolster her popular vote argument

Obama should take the deal AFTER he clenches the nomination. He shouldn't be forced into unfair deals now.

[mckeown1128]

66. It is not reasonable...

the polling shows them tied with Obama a tick ahead of Hillary... how is "giving Hillary +10 delegates" fair to the democrats in MI?