Obama's fundamental belief system is unimportant?

[Tactical Progressive]

Only to Barack and Michelle Obama, and Obama's campaign supporters, is that true.

Voters want to know what kind of thinking on Americn society Obama has been following for the past twenty years.

Rev Wright, Obama's social-critic pastor for twenty years, the Religious Advisor to his campaign, had some things to say. But as soon as he started to say any of them, Obama shoved him under a bus.

Now, suddenly, Obama's friend, religious advisor, personal mentor, inspiration for his book, the guy who married him, baptized his children and prayed with him as he announced his candidacy is - get this - "a remote figure" in Obama's life, according to none other than Obama himself.

From 'I wasn't present for the sermon on that day' to 'Jeremiah Wright was a remote figure in my life', Obama has done nothing but lie. Obama will do anything to pretend he had nothing to do with all of the things he and his wife, whose 'I've never been proud of America' beliefs fit in directly with Pastor Wright's teachings, have believed in for decades.

I think most voters would find Obama's twenty years of Trinity beliefs on America and American society to be very pertinent to his candidacy. In fact, what could be more important, his memorized summer gas tax position that his advisors wrote for him? The relevance and importance of the Obamas' larger social beliefs are the very reason why they and their campaign are so desperate to hide them. You can bet that the Republicans aren't going to let them stay hidden should Obama manage to quietly make his way into the Democratic nomination.

[anonymous171]

1. super double standard. I thought HRC supporters hated the guy?

He was a preacher of "hate" after all.

[iamthebandfanman]

3. hillary is gods candidate

didnt you hear? i heard she talks to him every night and she attends church every sunday. god bless america and god bless our guns! you go get em hill!

*pukes a lil in my mouth*

[ecdab]

12. What ever it takes to keep a negative story alive. Brought to us by

the folks that will do anything and say anything to have some slim chance of having a Pyrrhic victory that will implode the Democratic party.

Don't look for integrity in places were it can not be found.

[aquart]

15. So you love and support Reverend Wright?

Is that what you're saying? That your support for him hasn't wavered, unlike Senator Obama's?

Then how do you continue to support Obama?

[anonymous171]

18. If I cared about a candidates religion I would've voted for Giuliani, since I'm catholic

So no, I don't give a shit.

[aquart]

25. So you don't love and support Rev. Wright?

Although Obama did, right up to the second he became inconvenient. Oh dear. That's how our Georgie was with the constitution. Inconvenient? Overboard.

So it isn't what Obama believes that matters to you. The only thing important is Obama himself.

Cult of personality.

[crimsonblue]

50. Tossing away things that become inconvenient....hmmm...

how bout "momentum not being important" then "momentum being important" and then "caucuses don't matter" then "I'm winning the states that matter" and "the delegates will decide" then "well, the supers will decide" then "ahem, we have a new name for pledged delegates-- automatic delegates" then "it's about the popular vote, even the electoral college" and "Michigan won't count" to "Michigan must count" and "the kitchen sink" then "Obama's not a muslim.... as far as I know". For a candidate that has tossed away her soul to win this campaign, she sure can throw stones from her glass house pretty well.

[cali]

70. Personal relationships are complex. I'm surprised you don't know that.

Comparing how someone-anyone-deals with those complexities, is completely unrelated to how bushco dealt with the Consititution. It's no more related than say, Hill's relationship to Bill is related to why she chose to give chimp a blank check.

As an Obama supporter I never loved or supported Wright. I did understand that I can't judge Obama's relationship with him anymore than I can judge Hill's complex relationship with Bill. Or for that matter, her personal relationship with Penn. I wasn't phased by Wright's condemnation of the U.S. for its treatment of minorites as expressed in his "Goddamn America" sermon. I was disgusted about his comments about Hillary and Bill in other sermons, his ridiculous adherence to the patently ridiculous AIDs "theory" and his remark about Natalie Hollowell.

How on earth does such nuanced thinking make me a cultist? Never mind, you're seeing what you want to see. Carry on.

[Warren DeMontague]

2. *

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

4. Obama's fundamental belief in the constitution is important.

You know? That thing about no religious test for office? That one?

[iamthebandfanman]

5. Hear hear! *clap*

[Moochy]

8. But that's one of the neccessary tactics that a progressive must take

Ignoring the constitution is a tactic. a bad one. :rofl:

[JuniperLea]

10. Then he should have known better than to

Put Rev. Wright out there in the first place... a misguided attempt to pander the religious left methinks. He would have been better off embracing the differences between the two men instead of throwing the Rev under the bus.

I love Rev. Wright... I find nothing wrong with anything he has said. My respect for Obama grew because of the Rev... even though I could see they were clearly divided on several issues... not a big deal. It could have been handled a lot better.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

80. Blaming the victim, eh?

Well that's stupid.

[JuniperLea]

88. He's not a victim!

He was in control of this whole fiasco. No one forced him to hold Rev up, or to throw him down.

[aquart]

20. Then why are you all harping on Hillary's faith?

And why have we never nominated a Muslim, or a Jew? Or a Unitarian? Or an atheist?

It only doesn't matter when it is Obama's faith that turns out to have been a cynical political choice to improve his standing in the black community?

Hypocrites are so much fun to play with.

[JuniperLea]

24. I wonder if this will cause a divide

Rev. Wright and his church walk the talk... and they are well supported by many other black churches... I wonder how many people will see the hypocrisy and turn away.

Sad, sad, sad.

[TheDoorbellRang]

33. We've had four Unitarian presidents

John Adams
John Quincy Adams
Millard Fillmore
William Howard Taft

I've seen Obama's church, the UCC, referred to by some as "Unitarians Considering Christ." I don't know what their main belief system is, but I do rmember it was the UCC with the ads promoting acceptance of all when the entire country was foaming at the mouth about gay marriage.

I for one really enjoyed Rev. Wright in his appearances this past weekend, but can understand how he would seem "scary" to some people, especially when the M$M kept harping on his supposed "hate speech," which was an egregious slur, IMO.

I do not think any candidate's religious beliefs should be a parameter for the oval office, but that of course is not the reality we actually have in America. However, if Obama's pastor received such intense scrutiny, it is only right that the religious men that Hillary and McCain are intimate with receive the same scrutiny.

[Bluenorthwest]

87. UCC is not Unitarian

UCC stands for United Church of Christ. They are Jesus talking, hymn singing Christians. They are not at all the same as Unitarian Uninveristist Churches, known as UUC.
Trinity is a wonderful congregation. I am not up on the latest Wright twists but by and large he's run a courageous and inclusive church. But he's not a Unitarian. Just saying.

[crimsonblue]

51. You must loving playing with yourself then.

[JuniperLea]

6. Obama's reaction had a more negative effect

Than anything Wright said. I love Rev. Wright. I find nothing wrong with anything I've heard him say to date. Obama's first mistake was pandering to the fundamentalists and using Wright in attempt to garner support. His second mistake was throwing Wright under the bus, instead of using the opportunity to embrace the differences in us all. None of us needs to completely agree with any other human being in order to be held in high regard. What we do need is to be good on our word... Obama blew it.

[hayu_lol]

14. Great thread...

as I've stated in another thread, Obama's claim not to have heard Wright expound is so blatently a lie that it must be exposed.

Obmam attended Wright's church for 20 years. Assuming that he attended at least 45 Sundays a year, the total is some 900 sermons that he listened to. To state that he never heard anything like that is patently false, a falsehood, a lie.

Wright built that church. He built the congregation. He built his own bully pulpit. And, Wright is entitled to say what he wants/feels/ from that pulpit.

Obama is not a sheep. He, and his family, are allowed to attend any church of their choosing. He chose this one. Obama has a characteristic that will sink him. He avoids controversy at all costs. This matter is controversial. Obama's response was to throw this old friend, this advisor of many years, his spiritual counselor out of the Obama boat to sink or swim on his own.

Wright has decided to swim. He is correct in doing so. Obama is wrong for not supporting his long relationship. Simply wrong.

[JuniperLea]

21. Yep

pandering for perception never shines a good light on a person... sticking to their guns does. I thought Obama was stronger than that.

[crimsonblue]

53. I guess everyone else didn't get your memo.

Because the media and John McCain both said it was over, plus Obama saw an uptick in today's polls. Is your candidate that crappy that you cannot fight the campaign on the merits?

[JuniperLea]

75. Pssssttt... you ignorance is showing

I don't have a candidate. I'll vote for whomever gets the nomination. I'm just saying Obama should have done the honest thing and not flip flopped on this relationship. He should have taken the high road.

[Moochy]

7. Voters dont want to know anything about Doug Coe

So what progressive beliefs do you actually possess again?

[Armstead]

9. Obama has laid out his beliefs and value system very clearly

It is not that of Rev. Wright, who is not his political advisor.

Would you deny every Catholic the right to hold office because of the social beliefs of the Catholic Church?

[stevenleser]

11. Official "Guilt by Association" *PLONK*

[JuniperLea]

26. No, it's guilt by action

Rev. Wright is an awesome man. Obama flip flopped on him big time. Holding him up, then throwing him under the bus was a big mistake.

[The Traveler]

13. Obama has revealed in detail

the structure of his belief systems and values. Further, his actions and words seem to be basically consistent with those statements. At this point, based on her actions and statements in recent months, I feel absolutely clueless about HRC's belief and value systems. Obama's pastor seems to have gone wacky on him but HRC seems to be able to create that kind of moral ambiguity all on her own.

** Edited for cursed typos **

[ErinBerin84]

16. good post

"HRC seems to be able to create that kind of moral ambiguity all on her own."

Sums up perfectly the exact kind of doubts I have about Hillary's moral compass.

[aquart]

28. "Gone wacky"? How very convenient.

Now spread the word that the man who married Obama and baptized his children has suddenly gone insane, instead of consistently and articulately holding to his beliefs for over twenty years.

[Tactical Progressive]

31. Obama support is predicated on no reason and no honesty

Whatever will work for the next ten seconds is what matters.

The day before Obama thrashes his friend and mentor for decades, the Obama fans were extolling the greatness of Wright.
The second Obama tosses him over the transom he is some crazy, nasty, ugly man that Obama never hardly knew.

[aquart]

32. Ooh, sounds like they now think Wright looks like Hillary.

Don't you love that little lockstep of theirs? I keep wanting to enter them in a military band competition.

[mcctatas]

56. Seriously?

holy through the looking glass! Wow, even hillary's supporters are starting to act like republicans. Here's a little secret, I can disagree with things the candidate I support says or does, and that in no way diminshes my support of him...
glad to see all the hillfolk learning how to "fall in line" though :eyes:

[The Traveler]

59. Actually, my friend

I still find myself in agreement with Wright on a great many topics. I do think he exercised poor judgment in his answers to questions presented to him at the press club ... but his speeches in recent days contain little I can strenuously object to. And given the comments of white pastors that have been given so free a pass, even when closely affiliated with other political figures, this southern redneck just has to wonder what is really operating here.

But I do not know you, and (unlike you) am reluctant to openly speculate as to your inner nature, or what motivates your commentary.

[Tactical Progressive]

64. So why aren't you angry at Obama? He's the one who trashed Wright.

Obama is the one who harshly denounced and excommunicated his friend and mentor in front of a national audience, not me.

For what I consider insufficient, if not downright phony reasons.

So why aren't you attacking Obama? You just can't, can you, even when you write the reason down, you just can't summon that much integrity within your own belief system to direct it honestly.

And that's what this thread is about - Obama and his wife's concordance with Wright's beliefs over twenty years - yet still you won't even so much as criticize your hero in the slightest. What is 'really operating here' is a cult that simply cannot resolve its own ambiguities.

Unreal.

[PVnRT]

69. So, resolve this, then

Before this most recent bit of contrived outrage, why is it that Hillary's supporters were demanding that Obama break all ties with Rev. Wright and denounce him? And why is it when he does do that, it's suddenly the wrong thing to do?

Talk about cultish behavior.

[Tactical Progressive]

74. I certainly wasn't demanding Obama

break all or even any ties with Rev Wright, let alone hold a news conference to shit all over him before saying that after decades of being a friend and mentor, marrying him and baptizing his kids, that he was dead to him. After Wright did, really, nothing to Obama.

I don't actually recall seeing any other Dems asking for Obama to break any ties either.

You just make this stuff up cause it's the first thing that comes into your mind that might somehow defend Obama? By making what he does someone, anyone elses fault instead of Obama's? You cultists have no intellectual integrity. I guess you just check it at the 'door of absolute loyalty' to the leader.

I think Obama should have dealt with his beliefs, but he refused. He chose instead to betray a long-time friend and and associate. Don't blame me or Hillary Democrats for what Obama chose to do. Those are his ethics.

[The Traveler]

85. Why should I?

Seems to me everyone else is doing that for me.

I am perturbed by the degree to which people of seized this Wright thing as a means of casting doubt on Obama's character. There be dangerous precedent established there. While I am not entirely pleased with Obama's handling of the matter, I am far more puzzled by the conduct of Clintonistas and the MSM. I think that conduct is far more revelatory of hidden agendas and character defects than Obama going to one of the largest churches in the Chicago area for 20 years.

BTW Popes sometimes say the whackiest things about America. Perhaps that means no Catholics need bother to apply for high office.

Hillary has some really funky long standing religious connections, too. Yet no one has put her through this kind of wringer for them. (And, really, no one should. My point is all this shit is inappropriate.)

"So why aren't you attacking Obama? You just can't, can you, even when you write the reason down, you just can't summon that much integrity within your own belief system to direct it honestly."

Sorry, dude. Don't have time to answer that. Incoming sniper fire, ya know. :rofl: Seriously, you guys and the MSM have already reamed this for much, much, much more than for Hillary's blatant combat lies. Ever attack her over that? Seriously.

People like you made Obama's handling of the situation a political necessity. I do not expect or require the man to be a saint, nor to be perfectly immunce to the pressure of politics. But so far I have not caught him in complete, false, self serving lies of the sort Hillary seems to relish serving up. Like that gas tax thing. (Numbers. They mean something.)

[The Traveler]

35. You wish to indulge

in the sophistry of propagandists. By all means, sir, indulge yourself. But I would suggest that attempting to evaluate a person's inner character principally on the basis of their pastor's eccentricities is always hazardous at best, foolish at norm, and intellectually dishonest at worst. In the mean time you might want to check out the membership of the prayer club that Hillary attends, if you wish the play the guilty by association game.

I can't believe I have been drawn into this crap.

[DeeDeeNY]

68. Perfectly stated!

:applause:

[mcctatas]

54. Ya know...

If we are condemning Obama's "fundamental belief system" solely based on his church, then what about all the other people who attend Trinity? Are we saying that an entire congregation at one of the largest churches in Chicago has a flawed "fundamental belief system" ? I'm asking you, because every time I ask that of one of the "patorbators"*, they never seem to reply....:shrug:

*term origination Frenchie Cat....

[The Traveler]

58. Good question

Frenchie ... she gave me hell when I was an Edwards supporter. Damn I spent a lot of time trying to come up with intellegent responses to that woman! :rofl: "Patorbator". I like Frenchie Cat. She talks hard.

[avrdream]

17. Yep.

Kicked and recommended.

[democrattotheend]

19. It is important. But we should look to Obama's own words and deeds for info.

And considering the fact that he has written two books (actually written them, not used a ghostwriter like Hillary did), one of them long before he was running for president, there should be ample info out there to give you info into his beliefs. And I do think where they stand on issues like gas prices is also important both as a policy issue and as a way to judge character. As the Washington Post points out, Clinton and McCain took the politically popular position on that, while Obama had the courage to take a sound policy position that makes sense.

[FrenchieCat]

22. Ask our last Democratic President about his " belief" system.....

which I believes lives in his pants.

And the wife that chose him, and stood by him while he did his thing.

They lied to the American people....and I guess, based on the current campaign, that IS what they believe in.

[frickaline]

23. Don't you think its hard to educate people on your belief system when they refuse to listen to you?

[blogslut]

27. Define "fundamental belief system"

Barack Obama started going to that church in the late 80's. He was a grown man in his late twenties by then. Granted, he found Christ while attending TCC but to say that Obama's entire belief system emanates from that church is a band-snapping stretch.

In my opinion, in response to Wright's recent disparaging remarks, Obama's mother was speaking.

[Tactical Progressive]

34. Who said anything about his entire belief system?

Major parts of his belief system since he became an adult for certain. Not important?

[blogslut]

37. Fundamental

Main Entry:
1fun·da·men·tal Listen to the pronunciation of 1fundamental
Pronunciation:
\ˌfən-də-ˈmen-təl\
Function:
adjective
Date:
15th century

1 a: serving as an original or generating source : primary <a discovery fundamental to modern computers> b: serving as a basis supporting existence or determining essential structure or function : basic

2 a: of or relating to essential structure, function, or facts : radical <fundamental change>; also : of or dealing with general principles rather than practical application <fundamental science> b: adhering to fundamentalism

3: of, relating to, or produced by the lowest component of a complex vibration

4: of central importance : principal <fundamental purpose>

5: belonging to one's innate or ingrained characteristics : deep-rooted <her fundamental good humor>
synonyms see essential

[Tactical Progressive]

39. So 'fundamental' = 'entire'? Interesting dictionary you have.

[blogslut]

41. Semantics

Main Entry:
se·man·tics Listen to the pronunciation of semantics
Pronunciation:
\si-ˈman-tiks\
Function:
noun plural but singular or plural in construction
Date:
1893

1: the study of meanings: a: the historical and psychological study and the classification of changes in the signification of words or forms viewed as factors in linguistic development b (1): semiotic (2): a branch of semiotic dealing with the relations between signs and what they refer to and including theories of denotation, extension, naming, and truth

2: general semantics

3 a: the meaning or relationship of meanings of a sign or set of signs; especially : connotative meaning b: the language used (as in advertising or political propaganda) to achieve a desired effect on an audience especially through the use of words with novel or dual meanings

Barack Obama is a normal human being. He is the culmination of his life experience. He is the sum of his parts. He may have found Christ in the 1990's but his Mother found him first.

My argument stands.

[Tactical Progressive]

44. Your argument fails as it stands

because you predicated it on your ridiculous misrepresentation that I said Obama's "entire" belief system comes from Jeremiah Wright.

As Obama's spiritual advisor, pastor, personal friend, campaign advisor, etc for decades, Jeremiah Wright has most certainly shaped many of Obama's fundamental beliefs, by Obama's own choice. If you want to 'stand' your argument on refuting that, be my guest.

Obama supporters have a penchant for such extreme all-or-nothing misrepresentation. It's part and parcel of their all-for-Obama fervor. Obama is untouchable and everyone who doesn't concur is evil. Your contention that because every single thought in Obama's head wasn't put there by Rev Wright, then I'm wrong and nobody should question Obama on those beliefs, reflects that kind of attitude.

The basic point of this thread stands. Obama should be made to answer for many of those beliefs. He takes his children to learn them after all.

[Bluerthanblue]

29. if a PASTOR is the sum and substance of a persons 'belief system'

something is vitally wrong.
Are you a person who embraces a religious faith? What is to become of your faith system if your leader should die, or in their human frailty let you down in some way? Does your belief system center on one single human being? That is idolatry. Not a 'belief system'.

Your attempt to crucify Obama and Rev. Wright in this way is sad and cheap.

I hope you find a better way to support your candidate than this.

peace~

[Tactical Progressive]

38. Obama throwing his friend and mentor to the wolves is sad and cheap

Friend, mentor, advisor, father-figure, married him, baptized his children, inspired his book.

Thrown to the wolves (with sadness) and disavowed like he was never there.

The ethics of Barack Obama, in full view.

[Bluerthanblue]

42. he did nothing

of the kind. "thrown to the wolves"- what a bunch of spin.

You didn't address my question to you. Just like Jeremiah Wright, Barack Obama is a human being with feelings and frailties. Both of them have been hurt by the ruthless words and games of the media and our sensation-driven society.
Your attempt to be the authority on Rev. Wright's position and standing in Obama's life fails miserably- and it isn't your call to make. I don't doubt that these two fine men will work through this issue in their own time, in their own way. Your continued attempts to destroy them won't succeed.

Have you still nothing to offer to promote your candidate other than to seek to slander their opponent?

I'll take the ethics of Barack Obama over any other candidate in this race president- anyday.

You are in for a pleasant awakening next January.
Till then may you know
peace~

[Tactical Progressive]

55. That's exactly what he did, in very public fashion

with barely concealed anger that Wright would have the audacity to clarify his own views. This is after Wright, when asked, said nothing more critical of Obama than that he's a politician who has other considerations than Wright as a preacher has.

For that Obama shoves his adult life-long friend and spiritual advisor in front of a moving bus, saying he doesn't know him.

That's how 'fine' of a man Obama is.

[Bluerthanblue]

82. you

are blinded by your own prejudice.

bye-

[Moochy]

100. You are being overly charitable

OP knows *EXACTLY* what it is doing.

[rurallib]

30. You know this is total bullshit

Let's talk issues. Ok?
Iran? Iraq? health care? stolen elections? Global warming? Falling dollar? gas prices? food crisis?

You know Wright is a total diversion. Help bring some sanity back.

[Moochy]

36. cmon how can you doubt a poster with such an earnestly progressive name?

:eyes:


He's "Progressive" dont you know?

[TragedyandHope]

40. What's important is Obama's thoughtful leadership

and his drive to deal with the real problems facing the country, like jobs, the economy, energy, health care, education, Iraq and so on. As President he will also be able to set a whole new positive and productive tone for politics in America.

Case in point is his position on the ridiculous "gas tax holiday" pandering of the other two candidates. Obama refuses to go along with the easy, popular, quick fix gimmick for a few points in the polls. He takes the harder way, a position that takes more than one sentence to explain, but is ultimately more thoughtful, economically sound and simply better for the country in the long term. I wish every politician would approach every issue facing the country with that kind of steady hand.

What is ABSOLUTELY NOT IMPORTANT is how he responds to thinly-veiled bigoted attacks, that do not and have never reflected any of his words or writings or public service. If you cannot see that, then you are willfully ignoring all the information out there for your own purposes.

If you prefer a cheap, quick fix, band-aid approach to monumentally serious issues and a pandering "tell the voters the lies they want to hear" approach to politics, then you will have to choose one of the other candidates.

[Political Heretic]

43. Obama's fundamental belief system is represented by his words and actions.

:shrug:

[Radical Activist]

45. It shows Obama is the real liberal and change agent in this race.

I can understand why the media and talk radio crowd would attack him for that. I'm not sure why its a problem at DU.

[Triana]

46. False Premise: Obama's Fundamental Belief System is NOT Wright's

THEREFORE - Obama's fundamental belief system is the ONLY one that is important and is separate from Jeremiah Wright's. To lump them together is to buy into the false premise. They are two different people. A person CAN BE a different person than their pastor. MOST people are, in fact.

Is McSame's belief system the same as Hagee's? Maybe. Maybe not. Why are you not "oh-SO-worried" about THAT? How about Clinton's?

Either despise ALL OF THEM, or NONE of them. To flap about Obama's pastor but NO ONE ELSE'S makes me rather suspicious of YOU rather than Obama.

[bluebellbaby]

47. Great points, must agree with you...

:yourock:

[stillcool]

48. You'll get more bang for the buck

with this one. Hillary's Spiritual Advisor for the last 15 years!!! What did she hear at these prayer meetings? Can we get a selected clip from one of their meetings?..and play it 24/7 for 3 weeks running?

Hillary's Prayer: Hillary Clinton's Religion and Politics

Clinton's prayer group was part of the Fellowship (or "the Family"), a network of sex-segregated cells of political, business, and military leaders dedicated to "spiritual war" on behalf of Christ, many of them recruited at the Fellowship's only public event, the annual National Prayer Breakfast. (Aside from the breakfast, the group has "made a fetish of being invisible," former Republican Senator William Armstrong has said.) The Fellowship believes that the elite win power by the will of God, who uses them for his purposes. Its mission is to help the powerful understand their role in God's plan.
-----------------------------------------------
Coe's friends include former Attorney General John Ashcroft, Reaganite Edwin Meese III, and ultraconservative Rep. Joe Pitts (R-Pa.). Under Coe's guidance, Meese has hosted weekly prayer breakfasts for politicians, businesspeople, and diplomats, and Pitts rose from obscurity to head the House Values Action Team, an off-the-record network of religious right groups and members of Congress created by Tom DeLay. The corresponding Senate Values Action Team is guided by another Coe protégé, Brownback, who also claims to have recruited King Abdullah of Jordan into a regular study of Jesus' teachings.

The Fellowship's long-term goal is "a leadership led by God—leaders of all levels of society who direct projects as they are led by the spirit." According to the Fellowship's archives, the spirit has in the past led its members in Congress to increase U.S. support for the Duvalier regime in Haiti and the Park dictatorship in South Korea. The Fellowship's God-led men have also included General Suharto of Indonesia; Honduran general and death squad organizer Gustavo Alvarez Martinez; a Deutsche Bank official disgraced by financial ties to Hitler; and dictator Siad Barre of Somalia, plus a list of other generals and dictators. Clinton, says Schenck, has become a regular visitor to Coe's Arlington, Virginia, headquarters, a former convent where Coe provides members of Congress with sex-segregated housing and spiritual guidance.

------------------------------

These days, Clinton has graduated from the political wives' group into what may be Coe's most elite cell, the weekly Senate Prayer Breakfast. Though weighted Republican, the breakfast—regularly attended by about 40 members—is a bipartisan opportunity for politicians to burnish their reputations, giving Clinton the chance to profess her faith with men such as Brownback as well as the twin terrors of Oklahoma, James Inhofe and Tom Coburn, and, until recently, former Senator George Allen (R-Va.). Democrats in the group include Arkansas Senator Mark Pryor, who told us that the separation of church and state has gone too far; Joe Lieberman (I-Conn.) is also a regular.

Unlikely partnerships have become a Clinton trademark. Some are symbolic, such as her support for a ban on flag burning with Senator Bob Bennett (R-Utah) and funding for research on the dangers of video games with Brownback and Santorum. But Clinton has also joined the gop on legislation that redefines social justice issues in terms of conservative morality, such as an anti-human-trafficking law that withheld funding from groups working on the sex trade if they didn't condemn prostitution in the proper terms. With Santorum, Clinton co-sponsored the Workplace Religious Freedom Act; she didn't back off even after Republican senators such as Pennsylvania's Arlen Specter pulled their names from the bill citing concerns that the measure would protect those refusing to perform key aspects of their jobs—say, pharmacists who won't fill birth control prescriptions, or police officers who won't guard abortion clinics.
http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2007/09/hillarys-prayer-3.html

[crimsonblue]

49. You sure you want to bring up the gas tax issue?

McClinton, is it? Considering nearly every economist interviewed denounced and rejected the idea of a gas tax holiday, you sound a bit idiotic. Oh wait, you are an idiot. It all makes sense now. Troll, I banish thee to the ignore pile!

[mcctatas]

52. You mean these kinds of values?

Ministries

ACTIVE SENIORS AND FRIENDS - are members and friends who are 55 years of age and older. They meet regularly for Bible study and fellowship. They participate in quarterly outings for inspiration and recreation, and provide ongoing care and keeping of other seniors.

ADOPT-A-STUDENT MINISTRY - is focused on trying to retain college students who have gone away from home and are studying at universities and colleges out of the city and state. Importantly, this ministry assures our college students that they: 1) belong to God, and 2) have a church home that cares about them.

AFRICA MINISTRY - promotes, educates and advocates issues concerning Africans in Africa and the Diaspora. Opportunities shall be provided for education, travel, fellowship, economic development, missionary work, financial support, and health education.

ATHLETES FOR CHRIST - welcomes young men and women to build their physical strengths through participation in Christian sport activities.

CAN-CER-VIVE - supports members and friends who are survivors, and/or are presently overcoming and/or encountering the many faces of cancer. The ministry plans and conducts seminars/workshops designed to explore and inform its members about matters of diet, grooming, spiritual support, care-giving/receiving and recreational activities.

CAREER DEVELOPMENT - provides information, training and job fairs to enable unemployed and underemployed members to compete and upgrade their employability for jobs with employers seeking "good" employees.

CARIBBEAN CONNECTION - This ministry is our Afrocentric congregation's attempt to educate our North American members about the many aspects of the Caribbean culture. These aspects include the cuisine, the peoples, the countries, the customs, and the religion of our Lord as practiced in the various Caribbean places.

CHURCH IN SOCIETY - (CIS) - continually seeks ways and opportunities to educate, inform and empower the congregation and community to understand, identify and to be effective advocates for social justice policies that better our lives and our world.

CHURCH SCHOOL - meets Saturday mornings and provides Bible instructions in classes for pre-school through adults.

COMMITTEE FOR CHURCH IN SOCIETY (CIS) - works to establish Christian principles in the economic, social and political aspects of our church and community life.

COUNSELING MINISTRY -Masters Degree Holders in counseling or related professions, enable Church members to receive private, Christian counseling in matters of individual, family, group and/or grief crises.

DANCE MINISTRY - includes children, youth, men and women who are taught the principles of modern dance, ballet, and interpretive dance. They are also taught the African roots of dance in worship and the biblical basis for praising God with dance!

Children's Dance - 7-9 years old
Pre Teen Dance - 10-12 years old
High School Dance - 13-18 years old
Adult Dance - Adult Men & Women
DOMESTIC VIOLENCE ADVOCACY/CARE MINISTRY - provides Christian support, love and comfort to persons involved in emotional and physically abusive relationships, with husbands/wives, boyfriends/girlfriends or family members.

DRAMA MINISTRY - nurtures the innate abilities of expression present in all of our children and youth as they learn to communicate on the stage to the world.

DRILL TEAM - promotes an understanding of scripture, encourages academic excellence, heightens cultural awareness, fosters self-discipline and develops self-esteem.

Youth Drill Team - 13-18 years old
Women's Drill Team - adult women
Men's Drill Team - adult men
DRUG & ALCOHOL RECOVERY MINISTRY - meets each week with recovering members, their families and friends. Members Member's are encouraged to participate in Christian support groups which acknowledge that only "if the Son (of God) shall set you free, you shall be free, indeed."

EMMAUS ROAD MINISTRY - provides companions, prayer partners, helpers and friends for grieving persons, months after the passing of a loved one. Ongoing contact with the family is maintained.

FINE ARTS & LITERARY GUILD - informs the church family about artistic and cultural events focusing on African and African American heritage.

FOOD SHARE MINISTRY - provides fresh and canned food baskets on a monthly basis for the Hungry, the Homeless, and the Less Fortunate.

GIRL SCOUTS - involve young girls 9 - 17 years of age in the experience of scouting within our Afrocentric Christian environment.

GREETERS MINISTRY - welcome visitors and members to worship and special services.

HEALING MINISTRY - offers the laying on of hands to all who request prayer for healing of spirit, soul or body.

HEALTH ADVISORY MINISTRY - is dedicated to the prevention and treatment of physical and mental illnesses. HAB strives to inform and educate our members and community about "cutting edge" health issues.

HIGH SCHOOL COUNSELING - supports high school students to enhance their educational progress.

HIV/AIDS MINISTRY - offers comfort through support, education, and training for individuals, families and friends impacted by HIV and AIDS. Training Required.

HOSPITALITY MINISTRY - hosts family repasts, in-house ministry receptions and rolls out the "red carpet", for visitors gathered within our gates.

HOUSING MINISTRY - sponsors seminars to inform the church and community families about tax sales, "how to..." avoid foreclosure; purchase HUD homes; finance mortgages; etc.

INTERNAL SECURITY MINISTRY - provide security for the pastoral staff, members and V.I.P.'s. Additionally, the ministry assists ministries with securing funds when necessary and when offerings are received. Training Required.

INTONJANE - Swahili for "Coming into Womanhood" is a formal Rites of Passage program for young women, ages 8-18 years old. The program involves each participant in inspiring Christian, cultural and social awareness exercises.

ISUTHU - Swahili for "Coming into Manhood" is a formal Rites of Passage program for young men, ages 8-18 years old. The program involves each participant in inspiring Christian, cultural and social awareness exercises.

INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY MINISTRY - Information Technology Ministry (IT Ministry) provides Information and Technology related services to the church community.

KUJICHAGULIA - The 2nd principle of the Nguzo Saba, meaning "Self-Determination;" provides resources, networking and hands-on assistance to persons who are physically, mentally, and/or emotionally challenged.

LEGAL COUNSELING - The Legal Counseling Ministry nurtures the spiritual growth and development of Christian attorneys and other legal professionals, and provides legal assistance to the Trinity community.


MARRIED COUPLES - provide Christian context and insights for couples who are committed to building and maintaining Christian homes.

MATH TUTORIAL - involves elementary age youth in the rigorous discipline needed to increase their understanding of mathematical concepts.

MEDIA MINISTRY - provides services related to the audio, visual, print, photography and telecommunications. Subcommittees included in this ministry are:

Audio Recording
Audio Sound
Photography
Publications
Tape Sales & Duplication
Video Recording & Lights
MEN'S CELL GROUPS - provides a "safe place" for our brothers to "be themselves", sharing their joys and fears, defeats and victories, breaking down the age-old stereotype that says, "Men can't/don't pray."

MEN'S FELLOWSHIP - follow the traditional model of men in the church who are concerned about healthy and wholesome living with Christ at the center of their pilgrimage.

MILLION FOR THE MASTER - implements programs and services that promote the spiritual, economic, social and political viability of the African American community, focusing on bringing the church into the community and bringing the community into the church.

MINISTRY SERVICES - the mission of the Ministry Services Department is to serve the congregation, staff and Pastor in a responsive manner. To create partnerships between ministries and staff that fulfills the overall mission of the Pastor, Executive Minister and Church.

MUSIC MINISTRIES - God has richly blessed us to have a staff of professionally trained, Christian musicians who devotedly teach choir members to make an offering of their voices. Trinity's Music Department is made up of six choirs:

Imani Ya Watume - Swahili meaning "Messengers of Faith" (high school choir)
Little Warriors for Christ - age six years old through 8th grade.
Men's Chorus - over 90 participants (adult men)
Sanctuary Choir - over 200 participants (adult men and adult women)
Women's Chorus - over 200 participants (adult women)
Walaika - 3 to 5 year olds
NEWNESS OF LIFE -encourages new member candidates to begin their journey by providing informational and inspirational materials.

PRISON MINISTRY - visits the prisons every week of the year! To provide tutorial support and to engage the inmates in rap sessions and training programs.

PROJECT JEREMIAH - provides Christian role models and mentors for the boys and girls in elementary schools each week.

READING TUTORIAL - provides educational experiences through tutoring in reading for elementary school students.

SIGN LANGUAGE INTERPRETERS MINISTRY - provides interpreting and transliterating service so that hearing impaired people can become full participants in the shared worship experience, Bible study and other activities.

SINGLES COMMUNITY MINISTRY - addresses unique issues facing single Christian adults.

Never Married
Divorced
Widowed
Single Parent
Same Gender Loving
Upcoming Events
SISTERHOOD - provides an atmosphere where adult women build trust and explore ways to renew their strength for facing and resolving difficulties.

STEWARDSHIP COUNCIL - oversees the New Member orientation, administers the benevolence budget of the church, and assists with the financial needs of members who are enrolled in accredited seminaries.

Tangeni Adult Dance Ministry

Ministry Purpose/Objectives
The purpose of this ministry shall be to praise God in dance. In keeping with the church’s motto of being “Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian,” we recognize that praise and worship in dance is both an expression of our heritage and an acknowledgement of our faith. Tangeni, as led by the spirit, shall provide fellowship and nurturing to its members through devotion during rehearsals, seminars, retreats and other related activities. Tangeni provides an opportunity for its members to enhance and use their spiritual gifts in order that we may minister unto the church universal and the community at large


TAPE VISITATION MINISTRY - enhances the overall ministry of sick visitation by personally carrying services of worship (audio cassettes) to members and extended family who are hospitalized, shut-in at home and/or extended care facilities.

TRINITY COMPUTER LEARNING CENTER
Trinity Computer Learning Center (TCLC) is a faith-based training facility for Trinity United Church of Christ and the community at large using computer technology to help cross the digital divide.

USHER BOARD - are the doorkeepers in the house of the Lord. Include are:

Youth - 8-12 years old
Young Adult - 13-18 years old
Adult - Men and Women
VILLAGE KEEPERS - ensure that members are safely escorted to and from their cars and in between the 532, 421 and 400 buildings. They provide a presence of protection and security.

WOMEN'S GUILD - is the volunteer corps for the residents of the two Trinity sponsored senior residences.

YOGA MINISTRY - helps participants maintain physical, mental and spiritual fitness.

YOUNG ADULT MINISTRY - nurtures Christians between the ages of 18 and 35 by addressing issues and concerns of young African American Christian adults; and provides a bridge over which teenagers transition into adulthood.

YOUNG WOMEN'S CHRISTIAN WALK - provides character development from a Christian perspective. Activities are supportive of and sensitive to developing cultural and spiritual awareness.

YOUTH CHURCH MINISTRY PARTNERS - are committed to teaching children ages 3-10 years of age about the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Through the use of Christian Education materials, music, prayers, and crafts, your child can participate in an atmosphere that is designed to teach them all the elements of worship. 3-year olds must be potty-trained and not wearing pull-ups. Space is limited to a first-come first-served basis at the 7:30 am and 11:00 am services. The space is also limited by the capacity of the classrooms for your child's particular age group.

http://www.tucc.org/ministries.htm
I want to know why the MSM hasn't taken the time to actually talk to other people who have attended this church? Jesus H Christ, it is one of the largest in Chicago, are all of the other congregants anti-American? :wtf:

[Tactical Progressive]

92. I'm surprised Obama would throw somebody like that off a moving bus

The irony of defending Obama for very coldly chucking one of his closest friends, by making a huge list of that friend's accomplishments, is amazing.

If you really hold Wright in that much esteem, then what are you doing defending Obama for trashing and tossing him so publicly?

[mcctatas]

96. So are we questioning Obama's "fundamental belief"

because he attended the church (where the above list of ministries comes from) or because he dissasociated himself (or if you prefer, threw off a moving bus) someone who has said things that are not compatable with his beliefs? Talk about damned if you do and damned if you don't! :wtf: I sincerely doubt that Rev. Wright was preaching the same message every Sunday when he was the pastor of Trinity as he is now, and if you think he was, then don't we have to question the "fundament belief system" of the rest of the sizeable congregation? I think my in-laws church where they damn homosexuals and pray for the end times is much more flawed in it's "fundamental belief system", but I also know that many people who attend there do not believe everything that is preached.....

[mrreowwr_kittty]

57. Then Hillary's creepy prayer cult is equally important, no?

She belongs to a cabal of extremely powerful people, including many high level figures in the military industrial complex, who believe that a small elite group should control the world and that Christianity should be the state religion.

:scared:

[JMDEM]

60. WTF! WTF!

And your candidate's fundamental belief system is exposed with every slimeball tactic she pulls every single day.

Hillary's fundamental belief system is hanging right out there like a pair of soiled underpants on a flagpole. Deception. Deceit. Megalomania. Backstabbing. Lying. Lying. Lying. Robocalls. Race baiting. Lying some more. Despicable campaign tactics. Slash and burn of the whole Democratic party.

Don't give me this shit about fundamental beliefs when your candidate's fundamental beliefs are so obvious and so vile.

[Tactical Progressive]

73. O is TF! O is TF!

Hillary's fundamental beliefs are strongly progressive and her ethics are heavily biased towards fighting her whole life to make them happen. From getting her husband elected to the Presidency. To pushing through the first female Secretary of State and Attorney General in US history. To trying to get Universal Healthcare in the USA against insurmountable odds at the time. She believes in what is right and she fights for it.

Barack Obama's fundamental beliefs are whatever is good for Barack Obama. His ethics have been to never help much of anybody except for Barack Obama. And to get what Obama wants he's willing to lie, smear, race-bait and now backstab anyone he has to, including his own party, the only Dem President we've had in nearly thirty years, and now his own long-time mentor. You want to talk about despicable campaign tactics? You want to talk about self-indulgent and vile? That's Obama.

Obama will never have one-tenth the honor of Hillary Clinton, you moonie nutcase. So go get your shitty underpants off the flagpole and get to school before the principal has to call your mom at work.

[JMDEM]

81. Up yours, progressive (yea, real progressive of you)

to pick a war-mongering liar who embraces the right wing.

[Moochy]

99. Compassionate Conservative

Tactical Progressive

[eridani]

61. What about the overt fascism of Clinton's prayer group leader? n/t

[barack the house]

62. Th Bush family friends of the Clintons for 20 years had this effected their judgement it darn looks

so.

[barack the house]

63. Th Bush family friends of the Clintons for 20 years has this effected their judgement it darn looks

so. Wil they disown this family for their war crimes and torture.

[hokies4ever]

65. What about the Clintons' disrespect for the sanctity of marriage?

Didn't she vote for the Defense of Marriage Act? You know she only voted that way to avoid people talking about why she didn't want to defend the sanctity of marriage. LOL! :rofl:

[susankh4]

66. K&R

You've got the tactical along with the progressive, Tactical Progressive!

That sets you apart from alot of so called progressives on this board.

Goo job!

[k8conant]

76. Goo job is right! Smear and goo without substance!

Tactical Progressive is neither tactical nor progressive.

[Moochy]

102. I Bet You were a Big Fan of Compassionate Conservativsm!

[casus belli]

67. So what does his association mean then.

Are you suggesting he hates white people, thinks the government was responsible for 9-11? Can you, with a straight face, say that you think Obama thinks HIV was introduced to the African American community by the US government?

What exactly are you getting at? And if we're going to follow this to its logical conclusion, then ANY progressive who attends a church where homosexuality is not endorsed must be against gay marriage. Any progressive who attends a church where the pastor is vehemently pro-life must then, by association, be against a woman's right to choose.

Your logic is flawed, and your motives are clear. Why can't you support your own candidate without trying to completely destroy everyone else? If you believe in Karma, you're fucked.

[mmonk]

71. Sure it's imporatnt. Too bad it can't be about that but the Rev. Wright instead.

[TheZug]

72. John Kerry is Catholic--is he therefore anti-abortion, anti-gay, and anti-woman?

His choice of church doesn't define him. Why does it define Obama? Because he's black?

[ProSense]

77. What an utterly stupid post!

Is Bill's belief system Hillary's?

Reminds me of the Lieberman was Obama's Senate mentor.

Dumb!

[izzybeans]

78. He states his beliefs quite plainly. Interesting that you refuse to listen.

Very interesting. Curious even.

[kevinbgoode]

79. "Voters want to know what kind of thinking on Americn society Obama has been following for the past

20 years". . .

I think the problem here is that people already know what kind of thinking was going on in he Clinton White House. . .and the multiple scandals of the past 20 years involving the Clintons.
What fundamental belief system would have created so many scandals?

[Tactical Progressive]

89. The problem is that you can't even begin to defend Obama

because whether you believe in what Wright preaches or not, Obama took the low road either way.

The Clinton's principles are to make America better, and they have done that better than anyone in political memory. Unless you think a special prosecutor assigned to look into someone's crotch is a real scandal, which it looks like you do, then there are no scandals except in your typically Obama-level ethics of smear.

Obama just backstabbed what many say is the father-figure in his life, and all you've got is a decade-old Publican sex-smear which you think defends him. It doesn't, but more to the point, the fact that you try to play that game shows exactly how far in the mud Obama and his followers exist at.

[kevinbgoode]

97. The low road? Your candidate is a woman who has remained

married and intimately associated with a man who is a serial adulterer. . .now what does that say about the character? And at least Wright wasn't out campaigning for Obama. . .yet Hillary proudly parades her philandering husband, whose behavior cost this party Congress AND the next presidential election AND embarassed the presidency before the entire world. And actually, it wasn't a sex-smear - it was a LIE. Do you understand the difference? Bill Clinton lied, and that lie contributed to an impeachment.

Now what party of lying do you celebrate as a must-have character issue in order to "do more for this country?"

I don't deal with phrases like "what many say" - we KNOW who those alleged "many" are. . .and as for having a decade-old "Publican sex-smear", it seems odd that your side can manufacture such nonsense and demand a defense, yet gets all indignant and righteous when you haul out the adulterer AND liar onto the campaign trail and have the audacity to talk about ethical and concerned leadership.

10,000 men and women from my community lost their jobs in the armed forces because of President Clinton's "don't ask, don't tell" policy. He broke his promise to that community. How much of a human sacrifice did those people make so that you can crow about how much the Clintons "helped" America? They sure as hell did not help MY America.

[xchrom]

83. recommend -- mcklurkin, mary mary and the others

were all predecessor to this moment.

[Lucky 13]

84. John Kerry is a Catholic. Someone oust him from the party!!

And we all know what ALL Catholics believe: no birth control. no gays. no abortion. no female priests. and the only way to heaven is through Christ our Lord. child sexual abuse... that's ok though.

Hardly Democratic values.

I say we round up anyone who's religious preferences don't jive with the party line and OUST THEM!! It's the only way to cleanse our ranks.

:sarcasm:

Will you please TRY to think before you speak?

[futureliveshere]

86. Billary's fundamental belief system = "Conveniently Democratic" or "Disguised Republican"

This is the main reason why we don't support them.

[Tactical Progressive]

90. Bill and Hillary are both farther left than Obama

Obama is a panderer and an exploiter. He'll do what is good for Obama as best he can. That's just how he's made.

Bill and Hillary do the best they can for a progressive America. They have to compromise politically to do that, and sometimes to keep themselves viable. But it's not their fundamental mindset like it is with Obama, who many times votes 'present', or just doesn't show up to vote, for his own benefit. Who pretends to be anti-war to pander to his constituency, then when elected votes over and over and over to extend the war.

Obama doesn't fight for anything beyond Obama, not even his long-time friend and mentor who he savages in a national press conference for his own benefit.

[Mooney]

93. ROTFLMAO!

[kevinbgoode]

104. That is the most poorly constructed argument I've seen in this thread

and their are plenty of them. Bill and Hillary do what is good for the country, you claim, even if they have to compromise the very people they are supposed to be helping....but they only do this to keep THEMSELVES viable.

How is voting "present" in the Illinois legislature for Obama's exclusive benefit?

And do we need to remind you that one half of the campaign team of Clinton-Clinton was impeached?

[Mooney]

91. This thread is actually unfair to Hillary Clinton.

She doesn't have a fundamental belief system.

[Tactical Progressive]

94. Obama believes only in himself.

If you can call that a belief system.

[Mooney]

95. Snappy comeback.

[mcctatas]

98. can you offer any evidence to support this obviously carefully

researched and complicated proclomation?

Of course not....
Jog on....

[NoodleyAppendage]

101. This is funny. I heard the same pro-Hillary campaign "meme" coming from another source.

I guess you Hillary folks are getting the "values" message out because Wright is pretty played out, but you can always plant the seed of doubt about the duration of his church going attendance. Nice work, Repuke-in-Dem-clothing poster. Now, go back to your campaign handlers and tell them you've done a good job shitting the propaganda out at the grassroots level.

J

[Pablotomboy]

103. Sorry, with gas prices this high, I don't care about beliefs n/t