So what's the point of all this Wright stuff anyway?

[casus belli]

I mean, seriously, what are people suggesting by pointing out that Barack had been a member there for 20 years? Are you suggesting he harbors some deep resentment towards white people? Are you suggesting that he hates the 50% of himself that is white? Are you suggesting that he harbors some secret agenda against the white mother and grandparents who raised him, or the white friends he made in the predominantly white schools he attended? Ridiculous.

Those of you jumping on this hater-bandwagon should be sickened when you look in the mirror. I never in a million years thought I'd see Democrats playing rightwing talking points but you fell into the trap and you're completely divorced from reality if you think that Reverend Wright, even if he were the racist that you claim, has in any way influenced Obama to deny what he is and where he came from.

This guilt by association horseshit is a slippery slope, people. Particularly when you have as many friends as Bill and Hillary. Keep it up.

[Cha]

1. So the m$$$fm could

jerk off and do hilary's work simultaneously.

[nomorenomore08]

2. The point is to stir up people's latent prejudices.

To associate Obama with something threatening, something Other.

[Dr Fate]

6. Yup- the old-time Willie Horton "scary black man"-its why she added Farrakkan to the mix.

n/t

[casus belli]

15. Nail. Head.

But why are Democrats encouraging it? That's the sickening part. Encouraging people to dwell on latent fears and racism is counter to everything we stand for.

[nomorenomore08]

17. Because they're so blinded by allegiance to their own candidate that they don't realize

the potential damage they could be doing to American race relations, to their own party, and by extension to all of us (if McCain somehow pulls it out in November).

[Dr Fate]

27. They are in full blown ignorant, knuckle-headed "working class" mode.

They are so caught up in their own myths and "working class" pose that they think pushing race-buttons is something progressives should be engaged in.

You & I know that the real working class includes black folks, educated people, and lots of people who dont like race-baiting.

[casus belli]

34. Interestingly...

Barack's base is comprised of exactly the groups you mention - educated whites and black voters across the spectrum.

What I get here, is that there's a whole lot of latent racism left in this country, and the flash point of this issue serves to remind us that while we may have evolved as a nation to a point where it is no longer acceptable to say in public that you won't vote for a black man, it's perfectly acceptable to lynch him with trumped up accusations of hidden motives which may or may not include reverse discrimination.

[Dr Fate]

3. Think Lee Atwater & Willie Horton...Get the point now?

I think Lee Atwater would be jealous of Hillary/McCain's use of the "Willie Horton" association tactic...

[2rth2pwr]

4. If that whacko was Hillary's Pastor, it would be a huge issue.

[Dr Fate]

9. Yup- like now, conservatives would be harping on it daily.

You are right-the Willie Horton technique can work on white candidates too- just ask Dukakis.

[casus belli]

10. I completely and totally disagree.

Case in point. Oprah was a member there for many years as well. Wright has been the pastor since 1972, so he was the pastor the entire time Oprah was a member. Do you see any fallout for her over this? Is anyone suggesting she has some alterior motives because she was a member there and so by default must agree with some of the more inflammatory rhetoric?

No, this is clearly an "angry-black man" tactic that has very clearly and distinctly shown that there are still quite a few people who, while maybe not overtly racist, are perfectly willing to watch a character-lynching. I expected that from conservatives. I never expected to see progressives buying into such stupid talking points.

And before you ask, I'd be every bit as pissed if they were doing it to Hillary. It's bullsh*t.

[PurityOfEssence]

24. Oprah's not running for President

If she was, it'd be an issue.

If it was made a big issue, she'd probably lose some viewers.

The tenor of equivocation about what a poster should or can do without recrimination and what a politician has to do to be viable is just plain silly. I'm an agnostic; I can't be elected to dogcatcher regardless of my accomplishments and otherwise unsullied past. That's fine; I don't choose to run for anything. I would be a liability to those for whom I care, and I take that responsibility very seriously as a member of society.

They both brought this upon themselves, and Wright's personal need for unconditional love and EXTREME unassailability as the wise sage of a unified-field theory of culture and cosmic truth is gasoline to the fire and brimstone.

[casus belli]

30. You're sort of missing the point.

This isn't being sold as a poor choice in friends, this is being sold as a fundamental flaw in his judgment and the insinuation is that because he was there for so long he must agree with some of Wright's more inflammatory rhetoric. Ok, fine. The problem is, this character assassination is exposed for what it really is when you realize that many other influential people have been members at his church as well.

The point is, there's no point here. The larger point is why Democrats have allowed this to be an issue because it is convenient for their candidate. I'd be just as adamant about it regardless of who the candidate is. I think the entire fiasco is horsesh*t. I just can't believe that there are progressives who have not only jumped on this bandwagon, but are helping steer it as well.

[livingmadness]

25. One of my FAVORITE all time singers goes to Trinity too

Mavis Staples - LOVE!

[2rth2pwr]

56. She's off the hook, because she left the church.

[casus belli]

58. After a decade or so..sure.

How convenient.

[emilyg]

29. Of course it would be.

[Eric Condon]

46. Unlike now, when it's barely getting mentioned in the media. nt

[casus belli]

49. Touche! :) n/t

[Mz Pip]

5. Ratings!

People seem to love to watch this kind of crap. So much of reality TV is devoted to humiliating or embarrassing another person in some way.

It sells. It may be a media manufactured outrage but they wouldn't do it if people didn't suck it up.

It appeals to our lowest common denominator. Mob mentality. Piling on. Whatever it is, it shows we really haven't come very far in 10,000 years if this merits more attention than Iraq, Katrina, or the outsourcing of jobs.

[casus belli]

26. That's possible.

But, I think it's more likely that some of the people who have jumped on this have finally been given a convenient out. No one in their right mind is going to comne out and say they won't vote for a candidate because he's black, or because they're a woman, etc. This issue gives the people who were looking for a reason to hate him a reason. If it wasn't this, it would have been any of the sound bites yet to come. Whether latent racism is the reason they're looking for a reason or not is their question to answer, but I wouldn't rule it out.

[Double T]

7. Lack of judgment in his CLOSE, CLOSE, CLOSE associations.

BO's inexperience showing through LOUDLY!!!!!!

[Dr Fate]

13. So why did they throw Farakkan into the mix then? Obama wasnt close to him.

They did that to push the race buttons in certain voters.

[casus belli]

55. Strange that this point hasn't been countered.

Or, actually, on second thought - not so strange.

[casus belli]

14. Lack of judgment?

What are you on about? Since when do we judge someone based on the actions of someone they know? If we hold everyone to that standard, there isn't anyone who would live up to the expectations.

There have been a lot of famous people who have attended the church. Oprah is the most glaring example. Why has she been given a pass if it's such an important issue? The answer is, because it isn't an issue. And for you, as a Democrat to be helping them keep this alive is worse to me than anything I have heard come out of Wright's mouth.

[Double T]

18. Close association with wright for MORE THAN 20 years with tons of admiration......

and praise by BO.......until this week.

[casus belli]

20. So what?

Seriously, so what? What is it EXACTLY, that you think this says about Barack or the thousands of other parishoners who have heard his sermons? What EXACT liability are you claiming this proves?

[Double T]

23. Let me give YOU another example.

bush selecting long time family friend/associate cheney to be the VP. NOW if that isn't REALLY BAD judgement......BO has a similar problem.

[Dr Fate]

28. Thats a stupid example.

Thats like saying that Bill Clinton would pick Monica for a position- that kind of stuff makes for a "funny" smear, but its not true.

[Double T]

33. Monica wasn't a long time family friend/associate.

In fact Monica wasn't even a short time family friend/associate.

[Dr Fate]

36. Long enough for the RW media to smear Bill like they & you smear Obama.

GOP tactics are GOP tactics- your example of indicating that Obama would pick Wright as a VP is just like all the stupid-ass RW smears I heard against DEMS in the 90's and beyond...

[Double T]

39. I said NOTHING about BO picking wright for VP. obama had a VERY CLOSE personal relationship........

with wright indicating BO's BAD JUDGMENT in wright's character.

[Dr Fate]

41. Post #20- you compare Bush and his VP as similar to Obama & Wright.

It's a stupid-ass smear-switch the names around and that sounds just like something a caller on Rush Limbaugh would say.

The same type crap they threw at Bill you now throw at Obama...

[casus belli]

47. You're not getting it.

There isn't any bad judgment here, and if there is it's shared by the thousands of people who have been a member of this church over its 50 year or so history.

To put this in context, I had a very close relationship with the priest at the catholic church I attended as a teen. He was the person who encouraged me to explore other religions, to study my faith and its mechanics as thoroughly as I could. He was, perhaps, the most influential person in my life spiritually. I found out several years ago that he was excommunicated for soliciting sex from men at truck stops. While that in no way affects my view of the man, I can see how others might consider it a failing of judgment and his oaths. Are you suggesting that because he had views which some might consider "off the beaten path" that I somehow share his point of view or in the blame - if there is any to be had - for his decisions? The point I'm arriving at, is that it's entirely possible to love a person, learn from a person, cherish a person, even when they make choices or statements that you wouldn't make. I guess I expect progressives to have a slightly wider view of the world we live in and not be so subject to such narrow definitions.

[casus belli]

37. He asked Wright to be his VP?

News to me.

I've known some shady characters in my life. Many. I don't know many people who can't say similar. When's the last time you had to explain why you have called people in your past friend at a job interview?

The point is, even if Wright were the racist that some have tried to paint him as, which I firmly believe he is not, it doesn't make sense to pin it on Obama. What has Obama done in his life that would indicate that he shares any of Wright's more colorful views of the world? And what conclusion are people suggesting this would lead to if he were president?

You can try to paint this like a really bad choice on Obama's part, but I'll just let you know that the chances of you convincing me this is anything other than a witch hunt is nil.

[emilyg]

31. Oprah is not running for prez.

[Dr Fate]

32. McCain is. I cant wait for Hillary to attack him on race, religion, patriotism & elitism.

I wont hold my breath for "the fighter" on that one though. LOL!

[AlCzervik]

8. Faux news wasn't interested in derailing Paul, they just paid him no mind.

Fux news-state run media.

[BenDavid]

11. obama's judgement . why a man who is as intelligent as he

proclamims hisself to be, and why he would stay in a church for 16 years listening to the bigotry and racists remarks made by pastor wright. JUDGEMENT! it is as simple as that.

[Dr Fate]

19. So you really believe that Obama agrees with Louis Farakkan?

I never knew you had to agree with everything your preacher says or everything your church news bulliten says- if that were the case almost everyone could be said to hold bizzare beliefs...

The main reason all this was made an issue was to push race-buttons.

"Judgement" is the cover- race-baiting is the goal.

[sushi]

42. Who knows whether that's true or not

Perception is important, especially in politics.

[Dr Fate]

45. Which is why Hillary/McCain is pushing race buttons.

To exploit the very worst race-based perceptions.

And I'm pretty sure it is not true, BTW. Do you *really* think it is?

[sushi]

53. One NEVER knows

what's really deep in somebody's heart. If it's true, he'd never admit it, obviously.
I find it very hard to believe that he disagrees with his pastor of so many years, and his pastor approves and is a friend of LF. I also noticed that he threw his pastor under the bus very reluctantly.

[casus belli]

57. He's half white.

If you are suggesting that somehow Obama may, deep in his heart, share the views of Louis Farrakhan would mean that you're willing to believe the man is capable of divorcing himself from who he is and where he came from.

What is telling is that the same folks demanding he "comfort them" about his relationship with Farrakhan were the same folks accusing him of throwing his grandmother "under the bus" when he suggested that it was impossible for him to divorce himself from his grandmother even though she clung to stereotypes that sometimes made him feel uncomfortable.

I, personally, find the race card to be a small-minded tactic. Interesting that it would be Obama's detractors who would play it.

[nomorenomore08]

21. Again I ask, how exactly is Wright's preaching "racist"?

I've seen no remarks from him expressing a blanket hatred for white people.

[casus belli]

22. That's the crazy part.

I hear alot of anti-government, anti-establishment messages, but never have I heard him specifically denounce white people. Not once, yet that's the message people are pushing. Watch out folks - angry black man. And Obama's been listening - watch out.

Boo.

[PurityOfEssence]

12. Religion is dangerous

Any policy that can't be advanced on its merits isn't worth being instituted. Religion is insular, and even the most broad-minded and tolerant ones still hunger for certainty and dislike change. This is why the religious tend to be more conservative: certainty and a dislike of difference.

It's not too shocking that star performers have huge egos, and it's no news that people like that are trouble.

Faust tried to take a shortcut to massive support and it had a bit of blowback. There's more to come.

[swishyfeet]

16. Very well said!

[jillan]

35. He was Obama's spiritual advisor and Obama had him working on his campaign.

http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2008/obama/obama120407pr.html

[Dr Fate]

38. Does that mean Hillary agrees with every view held by everyone on her campaign?

I doubt she does- but if I wanted to use dishonest GOP style tactics, I would claim she did.

[casus belli]

40. And?

Are you suggesting that Obama thinks that the American government is responsible for AIDS? Are you suggesting that Obama secretly prays a "God Damn America" prayer before bed at night? Are you suggesting that Obama thinks that America is responsible for 9-11? Are you suggesting that Obama considers our government racist? And if so, why would he want to have a role in the same government that people suggest he secretly despises?

[jillan]

52. The only person that knows what Obama thinks is

Obama.

Stop trying to put words in my mouth...or reading hate in a post where there was none.

[casus belli]

54. I'm merely pointing out...

that the suggestion has to arrive at some sort of a conclusion. But, no one is willing to state what that conclusion is. I wasn't putting words in your mouth, I was asking you to finish your thought.

[gravity]

43. Crazy black man

People try to rationalize it whatever way they want, but this wouldn't have been an issue if Wright was white.

It makes me sick that democrats are exploiting this for their own political gain.

[Asgaya Dihi]

44. The whole mess is screwed

The AIDS thing I think is silly but in a lot of respects Wright is right in what he says. White preachers say things all the time and some of them are close to Presidents and others in power, we don't think a thing about it. But a black preacher says something that shocks and that's a big deal somehow. Similar with how we manage to ignore the racial stats in our prisons and pretend nothing is wrong, if that was us we'd scream loud enough but it's not so we excuse or ignore it somehow. Yeah, racism is alive and well in the US and it lives even among many who would deny it. Silence in the face of that stuff is as good as support of it.

I don't like what a lot of people are doing over it either though, including Obama. Yeah, I understand the political need maybe but I don't have to like it and I like what some of the blogs and other so called "libs" are doing with it even less. The timing sucks for Obama and it's something most of us don't want to hear but too many are going after the man as if what he said was wrong, and a few points aside much of it was just uncomfortable truths. I don't excuse the timing or his comments about Obama but he has been pushed pretty far, most of us might have snapped under that pressure as well.

The main thing I've learned in this campaign season is that there's less difference between the average dem and repub than I thought there was and both sides are capable of the same sell outs and compromises if our particular cause is in jeopardy. Much of the judgment we passed against others over recent years was misplaced. Too many of us will do it too. The nation hasn't learned a thing over recent years and we've no hope for any real change until we do. Here's to another 4 or 8 years of the same old crap no matter who wins.

[casus belli]

51. The entire time I watched the NAACP speech

I kept thinking, I wonder what points they'll parse from this to demonize him further. It's like they're listening to words with no context or meaning. It's a game of "let's take these four words from the sentence and it'll sound like he was saying something we know perfectly well he wasn't". Nevermind a sarcastic remark. If Wright had said sarcastically, "well what do you expect from an angry black man" and rolled his eyes, you know as well as I do "Wright calls himself angry black man" would be headlines the next day.

Lynching is alive and well, only now they allow you to keep breathing and just assassinate your character.

[Life Long Dem]

48. The only ones not tired of this is the media and the sheeple who will follow.

[Dr Fate]

50. In a word, conservatives.

n/t

[Norrin Radd]

59. The point is the repukes mistakenly believe that it will make

voters forget about Iraq Occupation casualties, soaring gas prices, and a tanking economy, among many other real problems that their party inflicted upon this country.