Are you an elitist?

[lumberjack_jeff]

1) if you've ever used the term "low information voter" you might be an elitist. Add bonus points if you've ever mentioned "Obama's vote against the Iraq war" on the same day.

2) if you don't understand why "clinging to their religion" might be considered condescending, you might be an elitist. Bonus points if "latte liberal" is the most personally offensive phrase that is ever used to describe you. Triple bonus points if you agree with the statement that Obama is here because of "God, fate, destiny or providence".

3) if you've ever recommended a post or wrote to a media company in support of anyone "exercising their free speech rights" to call other democrats "white trash" or "ignorant white fucks", you might be an elitist. Bonus points if you wrote the post in question.

4) if you've ever ridiculed Hillary's gas tax plan because it wouldn't lower gas prices, while simultaneously praising Obama's plan despite the fact that Obama's plan would raise gas prices, you might be an elitist. Bonus points if you think that the residents of ruralsville, IA should take their kids 20 miles to school in the snow on electric bikes.

5) if you've ever written a post saying "Polls show that college-educated folks vote for Obama. Hmmm... I wonder why that is?" you might be an elitist. Add one point for each typo. Two points for each smiley.

[saltpoint]

1. I think I may be an elitist. I consider Yo Yo Ma to be God.

[NashVegas]

49. That's Just Good Taste

[Kittycat]

89. Well - count me an elitist then - Yo Yo Ma is in my iPod

[tomreedtoon]

97. Don't you mean "Yo' Mama"?

That makes you street, not elite.

[Seabiscuit]

135. Yo Mama Obama. Brings the street to elite.

[saltpoint]

124. Yo Yo Ma. What a genius, what an intense spirit walking among us.

[DJ13]

2. If not falling for Hillary's pandering BS means elitist, then yes I am

And proud of it!

[NotThisTime]

99. Same here, and I'll wear the label proudly

While drinking my half skim latte from Starbucks or drinking my white wine or drinking my high end beer....

[benddem]

3. call me an elitist

prove the oil companies won't raise their prices to match the tax decrease. Hillary's plan can't be started till next Jan. 21. Cause it would never pass the repugnicants and Herr Bush. It is stupid.

[Armstead]

12. It wouldn;t pass after Jan 21 either -- Most Democrats don;t like it

[cyndensco]

25. I guess the answer to her comment, "you're with us or against us"

is we're against you....

[sfam]

59. Make no mistake, Hillary won't try to pass it either. Its purely for election purposes...

Oh, she may introduce it and watch it die without supporting it, but she too knows it makes no sense.

[lumberjack_jeff]

53. Pump prices under Hillary's plan will be less than under Obama's.

Obama is proposing a large windfall profits tax in addition to the sales tax. Hillary is proposing a smaller one to replace it.

[cyberswede]

95. Wouldn't lower pump prices increase demand?

Thereby causing prices to increase? The gas tax holiday is a stupid idea. To say nothing about how the $34 I would save over the ENTIRE SUMMER would be better spent repairing and maintaining roads. Dislaimer: I'm not an Obama supporter.

[lumberjack_jeff]

125. Specific tax rates are not known.

But think of it this way, If Hillary taxes fuel at 7% (the windfall profit tax) and Obama taxes fuel at 20% (his larger windfall profit tax plus the $0.18 sales tax) consumption won't drop so low that the pump price in Obamaworld would be equal to those in Hillarytown. Theoretically speaking, Hillarytowns prices will tend to be less than Obamaworld, while Obamaworld's consumption will be less.

I recognize the downside, but if the economy and the financial wellbeing of the citizens is your motivator, the obvious choice is Hillarytown.

This question is much more important than "this summer".

[cyberswede]

169. I don't know...

I sort of prefer a scenario where consumption is decreased.

I also have concerns about what will replace the revenue generated by the $0.18 sales tax (for road repair and maintenance).

And isn't it more equitable that the corporations pay a higher windfall profit tax? I realize they can pass the costs on to the consumer, but again, if that reduces consumption (which leads to decreased prices), isn't that a good thing?

But then, I know even less about the economy than John McCain. :)

[lumberjack_jeff]

175. Is there an upside to $7.00/gal gas?

Perhaps. But there is a really obvious downside.

Setting aside the short term (e.g. prior to the election) issues for a moment (which are gimmicky and based on panic), Hillary has suggested to replace the gas tax with a windfall profits tax. As gas gets more expensive, a wpt brings in more, a gas sales tax - less.

Obama has suggested a much larger windfall profits tax on top of the sales tax.

Other things being equal*, fuel prices under the Obama paradigm will be more - regardless of what happens with consumption.

*The most likely thing that throws this into doubt is the possibility that large inflation on fuel prices (which would obviously be exacerbated by unnecessarily high taxes) throws the broader economy into depression.

[Uncle Joe]

178. Wouldn't lower taxes, increase the national deficit, putting downward pressure on the dollar, thus

causing oil to increase in price as the dollar loses more value?

[lumberjack_jeff]

182. two answers

a) I'm not convinced that a windfall profits tax will bring in less revenue than the current sales tax
b) if fuel consumption drops, then there's less need for highway construction. Lower taxes aren't always deficit busters - just usually.

[Uncle Joe]

193. I believe the oil companies would increase the price of their gas

to offset any windfall profits tax, just passing it on to the American People and if they didn't, gas being lower, that seems to be a dynamic for higher fuel consumption.

If I were a gambling man, I would bet on "usually" particularly as the debt has already exploded under Bush, so if the deficit usually goes up because of lower taxes, the dollar will usually go down as it's basically the government's IOU and gas will usually go up again as oil goes up.

[Exilednight]

4. Definition of Elitist .....

1. practice of or belief in rule by an elite.
2. consciousness of or pride in belonging to a select or favored group.

Here's the definition of Uppity:

1. affecting an attitude of inflated self-esteem; haughty; snobbish.
2. rebelliously self-assertive; not inclined to be tractable or deferential.

Nearly identical in meaning. Elitist: Hillaryland code for uppity.

[unblock]

18. close, but not quite

elitist is ROVIAN (or more precisely, luntzian) code for uppity.


more directly, putting someone DOWN by calling them "elitist" IS ITSELF ELITIST!
it is to say, "WE are on top, YOU should know your place DOWN there!"

to make the distinction clear: "elite" means you belong; "elitist" means you're a pretender.

[Two Americas]

137. that one is my favorite

"Talking about elitism is elitist."

That is a classic. "Reverse elitism" lol.

I am going to start practicing "reverse Obamaism" and accuse people who are defending Obama of attacking Obama. "You are just trying to tear him down by refuting the criticisms of him. That is so Rovian."

[TheDoorbellRang]

71. Elistist = consciousness of or pride in belonging to a select or favored group

Well, I'm proud to belong to the select group of Obama supporters, so I guess I'm an elitist.

[LooseWilly]

86. bwahaha...

He's a lumberjack, and he's ok...
No use for definitions in his word play...

[lumberjack_jeff]

104. Soo... how did you trip over your nickname? n/t

[DesertFlower]

5. i have to admit it. i'm an elitist. nt

[Vinca]

6. It goes without saying. If you support Obama, as I do, you're an elitist.

I'm also young, rich, overeducated and black. It's a shocker when I look in the mirror and see an average, middle class, white woman.

[Lautremont]

7. So if you don't live your life like a country music video or a Chevy commercial,

you're an elitist snob. Got it, thanks.

[sfam]

8. I don't support pandering gas plans that help oil companies so yes, I must be elitist...

Seriously, how can you actually support her gas holiday plan? Like, seriously...so all the economists in the world are now elitist? All newspapers around the country are now elitist. Is, um, rationale logic now considered elitist?

There used to be a time where democrats decried pandering devoid of thought as a "Bushism". Now, apparently some of us now call this elitist. Is it also elitist to be against torture? Or the banishment of our civil rights? Just wondering...

[lumberjack_jeff]

52. Like, seriously... the hangup appears to be the name.

Obama has already proposed a large windfall profits tax on energy companies in addition to the current sales tax. Hillary is proposing a smaller (read: politically possible) tax, and planning to use it to replace the sales tax. Will Hillary's plan reduce prices? Maybe not, but it is certain that pump prices will be lower under Hillary's solution than Obama's.

Sometimes the difference between "a better idea" and "pandering" is "I should have thought of that first".

[sfam]

57. Now if you can just convince all those elitist economists of that line...

The hangup is the pandering, not the name. She is proposing something that she won't even introduce in time for it to matter, something that everyone agrees makes no sense, and something that will benefit the oil companies instead of the working class. It is FAR from certain that pump prices are lower under her plan. Quite the opposite in fact.

[lumberjack_jeff]

66. It is hard to envision a finite commodity

... which has a 10% tax being priced higher than the same commodity with a 20% tax.

At a minimum, it'll be hard explaining this to the unwashed masses.

[malik flavors]

9. If you think small town folks are too stupid to know a gas tax holiday would never get passed...

in congress or signed by the president, you might be an elitist.

[lumberjack_jeff]

35. So you're suggesting that a repeal of the sales tax on gas will never pass...

... if it includes a modest windfall profits tax on producers.

But a big windfall profits tax, on top of the current sales tax (i.e. Obama's plan) will.

http://www.slate.com/id/2190378/

[zabet]

10. Aww Hells no!!

Hold on and let me spit my 'baccer out and git settled in here....us underedumacated gun-toting folks that bitterly and I mean bitterly attend Church every Sunday, which we git to by a drivin' our big ol' pick'em'up trucks to,...well, we jest ain't all kindly twards that there elitism. You know how them 'litist be a snobbery like an a lookin' down there noses, while a sippin' on a $6 coffee, when eveyone knows you can get a perfectly goodun at the gas station for 69 cents...with FREE refills. They be a talkin' using complete words and the like. The 'listist don't look to kindly at our laid back lifestyle..they call us uninformed...it ain't we are uniformed Mister Obama, its jest we don't believe yore 'litist shit to start with.

:rofl:

[cali]

11. I have never used the term "low information voter".

2) I understand how Obama's comment can be interpreted wrongly. I don't mind being called a latte liberal. I never conflate providence with politics.

3)nope. Don't call people white trash. ever.

4)Hilly's abysmal pandering act would NOT reduce gas prices in any meaningful way for struggling folks. And Obama is correct. I fucking live in ruralsville- though not Iowa- and even here we have buses.

5) No.

And guess what? I am an elitest. I am an elitist in the sense that books mean far more to me than TV. I am an elitist in that I won't shop at Wilmar- and wouldn't even if there was one closer than an hour's drive. I am an elitist in the sense that I don't think this country is the greatest on earth. I am an elitist in that I think most people are fairly easy to manipulate and persuade, and I don't think I am. I'm an elitist about tons of things. I wouldn't dream of denying it. And it has nothing to do with money. I'm a real elitist about tacky Mc Mansions.

[smalll]

23. "I am an elitest in the sense that books mean far more to me"

Yet despite all that alleged reading, spelling is not your strength. Strange, reading tends to help spelling. Oh well.

[lumberjack_jeff]

36. Orwell wrote this for you.

Question a person of this type, and you will often get the semi-
frivolous answer: 'I don't object to Socialism, but I do object to
Socialists.' Logically it is a poor argument, but it carries weight with
many people. As with the Christian religion, the worst advertisement for
Socialism is its adherents.

The first thing that must strike any outside observer is that
Socialism, in its developed form is a theory confined entirely to the
middle classes. The typical Socialist is not, as tremulous old ladies
imagine, a ferocious-looking working man with greasy overalls and a raucous
voice. He is either a youthful snob-Bolshevik who in five years' time will
quite probably have made a wealthy marriage and been converted to Roman
Catholicism; or, still more typically, a prim little man with a white-
collar job, usually a secret teetotaller and often with vegetarian
leanings, with a history of Nonconformity behind him, and, above all, with
a social position which he has no intention of forfeiting. This last type
is surprisingly common in Socialist parties of every shade; it has perhaps
been taken over en bloc from. the old Liberal Party. In addition to this
there is the horrible--the really disquieting--prevalence of cranks
wherever Socialists are gathered together. One sometimes gets the
impression that the mere words 'Socialism' and 'Communism' draw towards
them with magnetic force every fruit-juice drinker, nudist, sandal-wearer,
sex-maniac, Quaker, 'Nature Cure' quack, pacifist, and feminist in England.
One day this summer I was riding through Letchworth when the bus stopped
and two dreadful-looking old men got on to it. They were both about sixty,
both very short, pink, and chubby, and both hatless. One of them was
obscenely bald, the other had long grey hair bobbed in the Lloyd George
style. They were dressed in pistachio-coloured shirts and khaki shorts into
which their huge bottoms were crammed so tightly that you could study every
dimple. Their appearance created a mild stir of horror on top of the bus.
The man next to me, a commercial traveller I should say, glanced at me, at
them, and back again at me, and murmured 'Socialists', as who should say,
'Red Indians'. He was probably right--the I.L.P. were holding their
summer school at Letchworth. But the point is that to him, as an ordinary
man, a crank meant a Socialist and a Socialist meant a crank. Any
Socialist, he probably felt, could be counted on to have something
eccentric about him. And some such notion seems to exist even among
Socialists themselves. For instance, I have here a prospectus from another
summer school which states its terms per week and then asks me to say
'whether my diet is ordinary or vegetarian'. They take it for granted, you
see, that it is necessary to ask this question. This kind of thing is by
itself sufficient to alienate plenty of decent people. And their instinct
is perfectly sound, for the food-crank is by definition a person willing to
cut himself off from human society in hopes of adding five years on to the
life of his carcase; that is, a person but of touch with common humanity.

To this you have got to add the ugly fact that most middle-class
Socialists, while theoretically pining for a class-less society, cling like
glue to their miserable fragments of social prestige. I remember my
sensations of horror on first attending an I.L.P. branch meeting in London.
(It might have been rather different in the North, where the bourgeoisie
are less thickly scattered.) Are these mingy little beasts, I thought, the
champions of the working class? For every person there, male and female,
bore the worst stigmata of sniffish middle-class superiority. If a real
working man, a miner dirty from the pit, for instance, had suddenly walked
into their midst, they would have been embarrassed, angry, and disgusted;
some, I should think, would have fled holding their noses. You can see the
same tendency in Socialist literature, which, even when it is not openly
written de haut en bos, is always completely removed from the working class
in idiom and manner of thought. The Coles, Webbs, Stracheys, etc., are not
exactly proletarian writers. It is doubtful whether anything describable as
proletarian literature now exists--even the Daily Worker is written in
standard South English--but a good music-hall comedian comes nearer to
producing it than any Socialist writer I can think of. As for the technical
jargon of the Communists, it is as far removed from the common speech as
the language of a mathematical textbook. I remember hearing a professional
Communist speaker address a working-class audience. His speech was the
usual bookish stuff, full of long sentences and parentheses and
'Notwithstanding' and 'Be that as it may', besides the usual jargon of
'ideology' and 'class-consciousness' and 'proletarian solidarity' and all
the rest of it. After him a Lancashire working man got up and spoke to the
crowd in their own broad lingo. There was not much doubt which of the two
was nearer to his audience, but I do not suppose for a moment that the
Lancashire working man was an orthodox Communist.

http://www.george-orwell.org/The_Road_to_Wigan_Pier/10.html

http://www.slate.com/id/2190378/

[gristy]

13. I am looking forward to alerting on you after next Wednesday

I don't believe you are stupid. I also don't believe you are a Democrat.

[lumberjack_jeff]

43. It's okay. I empathize with you and understand why you cling to these beliefs.

You're really not a bad person, you just don't have the information you need to make rational statements.

[smalll]

14. Here's another: If you've ever started a thread to ask about how Obama did on MTP --

so that you can let us all know that you're "in London this weekend"...
you just might be an elitist!

[lumberjack_jeff]

41. LOL! n/t

[DAGDA56]

15. Yep...I'm a college educated white guy who drives a 10 year old

car, and makes less than $40 a year...but in my mind...I'm an elitist.

[JVS]

101. $40 a year?

[Armstead]

16. Hillary makes me want to be an elitist....

Elitist is one of those words that has no meaning in the real world.

If you believe that we should be governed by people who are the elite in terms of having common sense, intelligence, decency and foresight, that you are an elitist. That's not an insult.

If you believe that we should be governed by those with the money and power to impose their will on everyone else, that could also be called elitist in a negative sense.

If the definition of elitist is anyone who is not a Hillary supporter, then I'm a proud elitist.

[PatGund]

17. Well, gee...

College-educated, also under-employed and bitter as hell about seeing my country and the economy going straight into the dumpster. Also a gun owner.

But I support Sen. Obama and fail to fall for Sen. Clinton's pandering and lies. So I guess you would believe I was elitist.

Though I can't see how supporters of a prep-school educated person who made over $100 million can call anyone "elisist"

[habitual]

19. well, you're criteria seems much different than the criteria of Hillary

She thinks I am an elitist because I don't support a 'gas tax holiday'. You seem to have expanded on it.

When was the last time she had to roll up her change to pay for the subway to get to school??

So tell me, AM I AN ELITIST???? AM I?? How can you call anyone an elitist because they don't agree with you (especially when almost every expert on such things says you are wrong)? It is schoolyard tactics. It's almost as if she has no idea what the word actually means. But then, we know she does and we know she wields it incorrectly to prey on anyone who might get distracted by the word.

and btw, i'll be graduating soon with a degree in Accounting. took me 15 years now. and one thing is for damn sure:

If you call me elitist because i refuse to recognize that the 'gas tax gimmick' will help non-elitist Americans, but rather that it would benefit most the corporations that are making record profits, then you need to take an economics class and get back to me. Supply and Demand baby -- 'the invisible hand'...

[lumberjack_jeff]

58. Four question marks. You're really upset.

I can almost see you stomping your little feet. You'd think I called you white trash.

One needn't be poor to have some affinity for working class people.

"How can you call anyone an elitist because they don't agree with you (especially when almost every expert on such things says you are wrong)?"

Surely you can see the self-parody.

Since you're so wise in the ways of (economic) science, explain to me why a large windfall profits tax, added to the current sales tax on fuel will result in lower pump prices than a smaller windfall profits tax used to replace the current sales tax.

I fear what I may learn is why your accounting degree took 15 years.

[eridani]

140. Now all you need to do is to explain how a bill with any windfall profits tax--

--will make it past a Bush veto. Does the two seconds of neuron firing it takes to procees that bit of reality based information make you an elitist?

[ecdab]

20. According to Hillary - if you know what you are talking about you are an elitist.

We wouldn't want any of those economists helping with the economy - because they are ALL a bunch of elitists. The world according to Hillary, what an unusual place.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

21. "Elitist," when used by a politician, is a right-wing dog whistle word for "uppity."

And yes, I am an elitist, in the sense that I am an educated professional who lives in a large city (since that seems to be all it takes to qualify these days). I don't use terms like "white trash" or "low-information voter"; I don't drink lattes or drive a Volvo, but I also don't have two mansions and $109 million in the bank; I didn't go to an Ivy League college or get a spot on the board of Wal-Mart; and I haven't spent most of my adult life hobnobbing with presidents, politicians and lobbyists. So maybe I'm just a low-grade elitist.

I am an elitist in the sense that I believe a president should be better, more ethical, and smarter than most other people. I definitely want my president to be smarter than I am. I also don't want a president who feels an obligation to brag about having a gun or slamming shots or standing on the bed of a pickup truck or pretending to pump gas like a regular person in order to prove they are not "elite" when very clearly they are. If "elite" means being the best, good. I want the best possible president, not a phony or a panderer. And I especially dislike the use of the word "elite" as an insult. Particularly in the specific context of this primary, we know damn well it really means "uppity."

[Bigleaf]

22. You might be considered "Elitist" if...

You don't know how to get yourself a cup of coffee at the local gas-mart.

[malik flavors]

24. If Hillary thinks she knows more than all of our top ecnomists, she might be an elitist.

[hfojvt]

26. the term 'ruralsville' smacks of elitist to me

Writing rural or small town would take too much space? Giving a bunch of small towns the generic name of ruralsville just seems derogatory to me, whether it was meant that way or not. And why single out Iowa? As if there are no small towns or isolated farms in New York or Montana or Michigan.

[lumberjack_jeff]

39. Because Iowa is in the middle. 'Kay? n/t

[hfojvt]

44. nope, it's north and east

The geographic center of the lower 48 is just a little north and west of Lebanon, Kansas, population 274.

[lumberjack_jeff]

45. I'm sorry, this is elitist. You're looking for pedantic; 2nd door on the right. n/t

Happy to help.

BTW, I live 8 miles from the nearest convenience store. I see more elk on the typical commute than cars. School is 12 miles away in the nearest real town, population 3500.
My tractor and chainsaw don't gather dust.

I know ruralsville.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

27. Sure

I am a real elitist.

I voted for Obama and that somehow makes me a snob?

I can't believe the horseshit you put in that OP.

[Ichingcarpenter]

28. If you don't agree with me you are an elitist

Same type of crap that VP Agnew pulled under Nixon.

[JustAnotherGen]

29. Ahhhh

The 'elitist' thing.

Sorry - but this is just a way for folks who don't like black people or feel comfortable with them to find a way to call Barack Obama an Uppity 'Colored' without having to say those words.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

30. Bingo.

The OP's sig pic says it all.

[Ichingcarpenter]

32. The code word, I think is "Arrogant"

which means uppity.

[lumberjack_jeff]

37. I forgot one

6) If you feel entitled to read the minds of those who disagree with you, because clearly *sniff* the hoi polloi must be some sort of -ist to disagree with me.

[Alexander]

151. That would explain why you called Obama voters "elitist" just for disagreeing with you.

[lumberjack_jeff]

158. Actually no, it's not Obama and it's not all (or even most) of his supporters.

It's mostly the 28% who agree with the statment "Hillary either will or should be McCain's runningmate". For them, it isn't enough that their candidate win, but he has to do it while purging the party of the lumpenproletariat.

That said, I do have a special place in my heart for those who disparage "low information voters" while pushing "Obama's universal healthcare plan".

[pdxmom]

31. So you're basically saying that if you don't support Hillary, you're an

elitist. Damn! There are millions more elitists in this country than I ever knew existed. We should start a phone tree!

[Exilednight]

33. A tree like this?

?size=572&uid=%7B21667E7B-0E01-428C-B98F-9D7B844AF9B7%7D

[TBF]

56. I can do math, Proud to be an elitist. :) :) (Make sure you add my extra points for the smileys)

[schrodinger_I]

34. We all are

I think we all might be elitist in some way.

[annie1]

38. LOL at the picture! that is totally what he looks like in debates. so funny.

[annie1]

40. don't forget "typical white person". oh, thank you for assessing the people barack...

you are so great.

[Political Heretic]

42. The irony of the OP is almost overwhelming.

[comrade snarky]

46. Would it make me an elitist

If I think I'm better than you for not posting crap like this?

[lumberjack_jeff]

50. Why yes. Yes, it would.

And welcome to DU.

So tell me about Obama's Iraq war vote you high-information voter, you.

[comrade snarky]

78. Nah,

Seen too many of your posts to get into a shit throwing contest with such an expert as yourself. See, that was my point which you so adroitly missed.

It wont matter in a few weeks though will it?

Buh By, keep driving that wedge. Maybe you can split the party.

<edited for spelng>

[lumberjack_jeff]

85. If you don't think it's already split, you aren't paying attention. n/t

[comrade snarky]

88. It's begun to split

I grant you that. However why do you find it necessary to pour gasoline on a fire?
Do you think your post will change anyone's mind? It looks to me like an attempt to piss people off and further the divide. Now who would want to do that?

Really, why did you take the time to put this together? What motivated you?

[lumberjack_jeff]

92. The superficial part of me wanted to dish out some of the ridicule I've been getting.

A deeper part thought it might encourage some Obama supporters to examine their most destructive kinds of binary thinking.

FWIW, I read this just before composing. I think it was absolutely on the money.

The perennial struggle of Democratic contenders to appeal to ordinary Americans seems very much of a piece with Orwell's sharp descriptions. Election after election, Democrats argue that once Joe and Jane Sixpack fully grasp the wisdom of the latest six-point college-loan program, or of an 800-page health-care scheme, they will come to wave the Democratic banner. And, sometimes, these voters do just that—provided that the candidate in question has demonstrated a sense that he or she is not treating them as the subject of an anthropological study. Bill Clinton had a full steamer trunk of domestic programs; he also was a product of Georgetown, Oxford, and Yale Law School. But his 18 years in the vineyards of Arkansas politics gave him the tools to compete for support on a more visceral level. Then there were Clinton's obvious tastes for earthly pleasures—from Big Macs to more intimate diversions—which made it very hard to label him as an aloof elitist.

[comrade snarky]

107. Get hit, hit back. Eye for an eye.

Everyone ends up bruised and blind (except for me of course, as the one eyed man I RULE)

Seriously, one way or another we will have a nominee soon. Then we either come together and I vote for Hillary, you vote for Obama or we all loose. The price otherwise is just too high. I'm not saying some Obama supporters aren't jerks, god no. But so are some Hillary supporters. Neither is worth another 4 years of bush III.


As for the elitist charge, from my side I don't see it. Most of the "elites" I have dealt with don't play pick up basketball. What I see is a last ditch effort to paint another democrat as unelectable. You may not agree, that's fine but is it worth a McCain presidency?

By the way, thanks for the conversation and the welcome to DU. Been here for years and had another name but what it was or what email account I started it from I have no idea. :-)


<edited for spelling AGAIN! Sheesh>

[lumberjack_jeff]

108. Absolutely right. I'm a person and a Democrat.

Prick me and I bleed. Call me a freeper and I retaliate.

Obama can be a little aloof, but it's not a huge problem. To be honest, I don't see Obama as elitist as much as (in the absence of strong union support) I see him tapping into an urban/suburban upper-middle-class activist base that most definitely is and is disproportionately represented here.

I'll absolutely vote for Obama if he's the nominee, but I won't be any less critical of the 28% of DU Obama supporters who think that Hillary should take her 15 million voters to the Republican party. (I didn't make up that stat, btw)

[comrade snarky]

110. Detente!

And Agreement!

Woo Hoo! Quickly, to the Middle East with us both! Israel and Palestine? Pah... Nothing compared to and Obama supporter and a Clinton supporter coming together. We can fix it. You and me Lumberjack, the worlds our oyster!

If you cant tell, I agree completely. We all just have to get past the jerks and not let them turn us into bigger jerks.

[comrade snarky]

122. And by the way

I get it. The anger when your candidate isn't doing well.
I don't know what to do as an Obama guy. The one I like is in the lead? This never happens, I supported Paul Simon for Christ's sake!

It sucks for Hillary supporters right now. I know that. If she does take the nomination she has my vote. I'll be mad, really mad but my vote is for the Democrat.

[lumberjack_jeff]

126. That really isn't it.

It's the behavior of the nouveau Democrats that rankles me. I posted a poll a few weeks ago asking Obama supporters if Hillary will/should become McCain's runningmate. 28% of them said, in all seriousness, yes.

For them, 15 million democrats are not welcome in their church.

I see meaningful policy differences between the candidates, but that's all a bit academic when facing a new congress. I give Hillary a 6. I give Obama a 5.2

McCain doesn't get an integer.

[eridani]

143. Nouveau? Good illustration of generic human behavior here

The club of old-timers woud really like to have some new members, but if an influx of newbies results in demands for changes in the way things have always been done, then all of a sudden they'd rather stay small.

[lumberjack_jeff]

157. If that "change" demands excommunication of everyone already there

... then it's no improvement.

[eridani]

184. No, it demands that the old hands make room at the table--

--and be prepared to see the nature of their organization change.

[comrade snarky]

170. I think you are reading a lot into

An anonymous internet poll. People will type things they'd never say to another face and they're even more willing to click the extreme option on a poll. I'd put it closer to %5 at a guess. You know... the ofical moran quotient.

There's a small percentage, yes, who do think that way. However tempers are flaring right now and I know I've been mad enough to say some things I don't mean. I had some choice words after the "Not muslim, as far as I know" thing. I called her a republican, the worst thing I can call anyone. Didn't mean it but I did. I let anger cloud my judgment and that was wrong.

Frankly I'm getting pissed at both sides, mostly at the supporters more than the candidates. We need to finish this ASAP or it's just going to get worse and I don't want to see a 1980 convention again.

[eridani]

142. You mean you haven't noticed that Clinton is the one emphasizing policy details--

--instead of values? Her Annie Oakley act is every bit as fake as Dukakis and the tank, or Bush and his fake "ranch."

[stray cat]

47. I believe in rationale discourse and reliable facts ie I'm an elitist

[lumberjack_jeff]

51. Rational? reliable? empirical? Meh.

Sometimes you just have to embrace the madness.

[susankh4]

146. I am beginning to draw this conclusion.

Time to embrace the madness of the Ray-gun Dems.

Back to the Ray-gun years..... Wheeee!

Can't wait for the trickle....

Can you?

[Palatino]

48. option #5 is common in DU

mocking Hillary for receiving the majority of votes from less educated folks is a common elitist comment seen here after every contest.

[Mz Pip]

54. Probably

I actually respect people who have advanced knowledge of subjects, like Economists. So put me in the elitist category.

[kwenu]

55. When Hillary's undereducated rural voters are in the room, we're all ELITISTS!!!

[lumberjack_jeff]

60. No, it's still just you.

But we're laughing with you, honest.

... and multiple punctuation counts as a typo.

[kwenu]

70. Bless your hearts!!!

When you're elitist you can use multiple punctuations for effect. Of course you wouldn't know that, would you?

:rofl:

[Bright Eyes]

61. Why don't you grow up?

You know, maybe post something meaningful? Explain why Clinton would make a better President then Obama?

But, you won't, as it's much easier to throw smears. Which is what your candidate is known for. What a coincidence.

[lumberjack_jeff]

64. I've tried that.

I get nothing but :eyes: in return.

I could point out why Hillary's health care plan has a 100% greater possibility of success than Obama. Crickets.
I could point out why Obama's energy plan will increase costs. Silence.
I could point out why Obama's "16 months best-case scenario" and his deference to the generals is an inferior get-out-of-Iraq plan. I get nothing.
I could point out how Obama's much praised ability to reach across the aisle has some limitations when there are such divisions on *this* side of it.
I could point out how Hillary's leadership on childrens issues is the primary reason we have SCHIP. Unlike the others, this implies that she has relevant experience as First Lady, which inevitably leads to sniper jokes and :eyes:
... of course the presumed irrelevance of the First Lady role doesn't extend to holding her blameless for fraudulent You-tubed slurs that didn't occur 16 years ago at a meeting which she didn't attend.

Someone upthread commented that this was an ironic thread. The post to which I'm replying is the other bookend - advice to grow up is generally given by grownups.

[Jed Dilligan]

62. I'm an elitist

I think that intellectual achievements as well as victories in bureaucratic and political battles should count in our selection of a leader.

[lumberjack_jeff]

102. I'm not suggesting we pick leaders from a phone book.

But if I were required to do that, and if the first person I called answered in Mr Burns' voice... I'd move on to the next name on the list.

[Warren DeMontague]

147. At which point, you might hear static and "dueling banjos".

I mean, c'mon. I don't want Mr. Burns OR Cooter from "The Dukes of Hazzard" running this country.

Unfortunately, now we have this fucked-up combination of the worst of BOTH.

Beyond that, this idea that the mythical 'heartland' even exists--- much less is somehow more "real" than these imaginary coastal enclaves of snobby poofy foo-foos who look down upon reg'lar merika from atop 500 foot tall non-fat ventis.. it's just ridiculous.

The truth of the matter is, ALL of America has been lobotomized by this sort of idiocy (in place of actual, intelligent political discourse) while at the same time homogenized, big boxified, and strip mall-ified. You could be plunked down in the middle of Atlanta or the middle of Sacramento, and without a GPS system you probably couldn't tell the which was which.

[lumberjack_jeff]

160. Not all the world is a suburb.

But the suburbs are the environs from which all policy is created. Gallup NM, Butte, MT, Hoquiam, WA and Elkhart, IN are radically different places.

I am encouraged Obama's recent events, but if he keeps this up, Gawker, Fark and Radar will start calling him "the angry bum candidate".

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1737444,00.html

[tnlefty]

63. I've seen LTTEs to the local paper stating that those who want to

improve our local school system are elitist.

Reading more than one newspaper or reading for information is elitist. Not being a racist fuck is elitist. Thinking for one's self instead of just following whatever a minister says is elitist. Now do you want to add this as a #6 point to see they type of responses you receive?

I really don't like it when the right wing uses this stupid fucked up term against democrats, but I REALLY don't like it when democrats use it against democrats.

[lumberjack_jeff]

65. At least you're willing to acknowledge that I'm a democrat. That's a plus

Since you like to read, I suggest you read chapter 11 of The Road to Wigan Pier.

It was written in 1937, but encapsulates nicely the difference between the interests of the working class and the sort of radical chic that only fancies itself as aligned with their interests.

http://www.george-orwell.org/The_Road_to_Wigan_Pier/10.html

Jeff Greenfield had a nice commentary on this topic a couple of days ago.

http://www.george-orwell.org/The_Road_to_Wigan_Pier/10.html

But yes, assuming that every working class person who disagrees with you is a racist fuck would qualify as elitist.

[tnlefty]

72. I didn't mention anything about working class people, you did.

My husband is a union guy and we've always been in the working class. I notice that you didn't address anything that I mentioned, just your assumptions about who might be a goddamned elitist.

[Raine]

67. Yes I am

so .... :shrug:

[lumberjack_jeff]

74. Then why is everyone getting wrapped around an axle about it?

If y'all are elitists, then why such impotent frustration that working class folks would see you in that way?

Or is it just a matter of they're not supposed to be calling me names?

Smug condescension only seems cool. By the time of your first HS reunion, normal people realize that it wasn't cool, it was only an affectation intended to mask one's insecurities.

One of the big pluses that Obama is perceived to have is his success at bringing more people into the political process. If those he brings in are openly contemptuous of the people already there, it's no virtue.

[eridani]

144. The frustration is with the jackasses who are destroying our chances in the general--

--by pushing Repuke framing. The Weekly Standard has noticed, and they are chortling with glee at Clinton's constant use of their framing. They know it means they've won. I suppose it's insufferably elitist to point out that people who won't vote for Obama on the grounds of race will probably not drop their misogyny to vote for Clinton in a general election either.

[lumberjack_jeff]

161. It ain't all framing. There is a very real problem here.

When radio hosts call Clinton's supporters "white trash" and the activist base of the party holds a candlelight vigil on her behalf, it is more than simply a collection of assholes. It is symptomatic of a permeating world view.

http://www.slate.com/id/2190378/

[eridani]

186. As Thomas Frank keeps pointing out--

--if you do something to improve the lives of white working class people you don't have to mess with phony Rethug cultural memes. The Clinton NAFTA was a disaster for all working class people, and Hillary's thug Mark Penn and Bill are pushing the Columbia free trade act. She called HERSELF the Senator from Punjab. Way to get jobs for the US working class. Not.

[lojasmo]

68. Proud populist for Obama. EOM

[ecstatic]

69. If common sense and living in reality makes me elitist, so be it nt

[1776Forever]

73. And If Your Husband is on Dubai's payroll and you stand with all the neo-con votes, then what?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5795561&mesg_id=5795561

:nopity:

[BlueJac]

75. What a waste of time post, I wish I never would of read your bullshit post!

[lumberjack_jeff]

80. That's four-and-a-half hours you'll never get back? n/t

[chascarrillo]

123. Are you saying that the post took that long for the prev. poster to read? Isn't that elitist?

[lumberjack_jeff]

127. No that's snark. Understandable, justified and well-deserved snark.

Unless the poster has an actual developmental disability, in which case I apologize.

[chascarrillo]

128. Snark based on saying someone's stupider than you. I think that's the definition of elitist.

But you go on ahead and try to justify it.

[lumberjack_jeff]

132. Okay ...

8) if you respond to someone who says "What a waste of time post, I wish I never would of read your bullshit post!" with a response which suggests that you think he's an idiot, you might be an elitist.

Then again, maybe you're simply right.

[rufus dog]

76. Something to consider Jeff

You may be called out for using Rovian or Gingrich tactics when you try to label people incorrectly. It is disgusting that it is being used by Democratic candidates and her supporters.

[lumberjack_jeff]

79. No, satire is not a wholly owned property of Rove, inc.

Particularly not when the satirical possibilities are so obvious.

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[swishyfeet]

81. Elitest is just what Repubs do when they're guy is a dumbass

If this is your idea of good politics then FUCK YOU. There's no way in the world that Barack Obama is somehow more elitest than Hillary Clinton. It's just the same tactic that Karl Rove will try on EITHER Democrat in the fall to appeal to low info voters. Anyone here on DU should be offended at such a thing, but I'm not suprised when they aren't. There are plenty of stupid people on either side of the debate. We should strive for better.

BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT

[lumberjack_jeff]

84. Happy anniversary. 5 weeks at DU!

We're way the fuck past "good politics". That concept is sooo last October.

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em. I hereinafter resolve to never post anything containing any policy substance. From here on, it'll be 15 year old fake you tube videos, contextless O'Reilly interview snippets and ridicule for Obama's celebrity supporters.

Give the kids what they want.

[susankh4]

150. "Give the kids what they want."

Yep. I think it's time to do that, my friend. Let them deal with their own consequences. We can't fight their battles forever.

(But, we can say "I told you so" later on. Be it in November, or in a couple of years.)

Ya know... I am beyond really caring about Roe v. Wade. It's no longer personal for me. Why should I continue to fight for it?

As for the economy... I am nearing retirement. The declining economy is good for me. It forces the yung 'uns to buy in my neighborhood, instead of building in the suburbs. And it drives the cost of smaller housing even lower.... so I can nab a cheap condo.

Budget deficit, you say? Who cares?? They will have to sleep in this bed they are making for themselves. I am getting past the place where my chickens have time to come home and roost.

I wash my hands of this presidential primary. I did my best. I'll now place my energies where they matter.... working for downticket offices, rescuing dogs and cats, volunteering for hospice.

Life goes on....

[farmbo]

82. Elitist? I know YOU are, but what am I?

So one speech makes the Brother an elitist?

Well he's in some good company then. Sort of like someone making fun of stay at home mothers who couldn't afford Wellesley and Yale...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rulSnAM6gmM

[lumberjack_jeff]

83. I am rubber and you are glue, names bounce off me and stick to you.

Personally, I think Obama is far less elitist than his supporters. ("How can anyone who calls themselves liberal vote for Hillary?")

The meaningful thing about bittergate was the need for Obama to use those frames to convince the audience he was begging from speaking to.

[smoogatz]

87. If you've ever attacked progressives using rightwing talking points

you might be a DLC Bushlicker.

[pointsoflight]

90. Family lived off of food stamps while growing up, yet supposedly elitist.

Give me a fucking break. Nothing but spin, just like Hillary's entire campaign. A whole campaign intended to fool people and play to their emotions and worse fears...

[depakid]

91. I kinda like what Plato had to say about it better

Having developed a general description of the structure of an ideal society, Plato maintained that the proper functions performed by its disparate classes, working together for the common good, provide a ready account of the need to develop significant social qualities or virtues.

* Since the rulers are responsible for making decisions according to which the entire city will be governed, they must have the virtue of wisdom (Gk. sofia ), the capacity to comprehend reality and to make impartial judgments about it.

* Soldiers charged with the defense of the city against external and internal enemies, on the other hand, need the virtue of courage (Gk. andreia ), the willingness to carry out their orders in the face of danger without regard for personal risk.

* The rest of the people in the city must follow its leaders instead of pursuing their private interests, so they must exhibit the virtue of moderation (Gk. swfrosunh ), the subordination of personal desires to a higher purpose.

When each of these classes performs its own role appropriately and does not try to take over the function of any other class, Plato held, the entire city as a whole will operate smoothly, exhibiting the harmony that is genuine justice. (Republic 433e)

http://www.philosophypages.com/hy/2g.htm

[lumberjack_jeff]

93. At risk of exposing my class roots...

... did you hook up with the Democratic party primarily to get into the pants of a proletariat girl?

This government derives its powers from the consent of the governed. You might like Plato's views on the matter, but Jefferson thought he was full of shit, and so do I.

I thought I was joking. The problem is much worse than I had imagined.

[depakid]

96. It's been a LONG TIME since the American government derived its power from the consent

of the governed....

And, yeah- in terms of a utopia's, Plato's is better reasoned than some and worse than others, and arguably preferable the dysfunctional system currently in place.

If I had my pick, though I'd take Callenbach's ecotopia. Seems like a healthier and definitely more fun place to live. ;-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecotopia

[davidpdx]

94. I voted for Obama

therefore I must be an elitist right?

Damn Clinton logic!

[lumberjack_jeff]

100. You're not getting into the spirit.

Try
7) If you're confident that all Clinton supporters hate all Obama supporters because they are jealous of our superior logic, then you might be an elitist. Bonus points if your recommended a post today entitled "I can't vote for anyone who has such godawful taste in clothing."

[davidpdx]

103. Nope, I'm an elitist

You must not be paying attention to your fellow Clinton supporters. I have two college degrees, lived in Portland for 11 years and support Obama. Now I don't drive a Volvo (or any other car for that matter), so I'm sure I lose points on that one.

[lumberjack_jeff]

106. If Obama wins the nomination, I'm voting for him.

But if that happens I'll be even more intolerant of my fellow Obama supporters who consider the phrase "white trash" to be good politics.

The perennial struggle of Democratic contenders to appeal to ordinary Americans seems very much of a piece with Orwell's sharp descriptions. Election after election, Democrats argue that once Joe and Jane Sixpack fully grasp the wisdom of the latest six-point college-loan program, or of an 800-page health-care scheme, they will come to wave the Democratic banner. And, sometimes, these voters do just that—provided that the candidate in question has demonstrated a sense that he or she is not treating them as the subject of an anthropological study. Bill Clinton had a full steamer trunk of domestic programs; he also was a product of Georgetown, Oxford, and Yale Law School. But his 18 years in the vineyards of Arkansas politics gave him the tools to compete for support on a more visceral level. Then there were Clinton's obvious tastes for earthly pleasures—from Big Macs to more intimate diversions—which made it very hard to label him as an aloof elitist.

http://www.slate.com/id/2190378/

[davidpdx]

109. Never used that term

and you have to remember it was Clinton and her supporters that have been doing the "elitist" branding. Repeating it, even as a joke is in poor taste.

[BlooInBloo]

98. I'm only an elitist becasuse the bar has been set sooo low by the idiots who populate this land.

[milkyway]

105. You might be an elitist if you've made $109 million but you campaign while standing in the back of

a pickup truck because you think the rubes are dumb enough to fall for it.

[Warren DeMontague]

111. If you've ever used the phrase "elitist", you quite likely may be a low information voter.

This fucking desperate gibberish is all you have left. Pathetic.

[lumberjack_jeff]

114. This one's for you.

http://www.themishmash.com/2007/11/8-telltale-sign.html

[Warren DeMontague]

120. Guess I musta hit a nerve, huh?

Congratulations.

An effete, latte-sipping, prius-driving, brie and arugula snackin', nosebleeding snob San Francisco (wink wink) libbbbrul elitist just hit yer nerve, there, ya reg'lar manly man-o-the-'Merkin People.

Waaaaah.

[lumberjack_jeff]

121. Oh, you and your peers have hit all of 'em.

The general election might not be as fun as you think, when us hoi polloi who constitute the old-guard democrats crash your party. You won't win without us, and many of us won't stand idly by while you lose us yet another.

You're entitled to consider it unseemly.

Of course, judging by the garment rending by a significant proportion of Obama supporters (who "won't vote for Hillary no matter what!!!"), this won't be a problem if she wins. You can grouse to one another on Radar and Fark and just stay out of the way until you're asked to vote. I trust you'll make the right decision.

[Warren DeMontague]

130. Blah, blah, blah. The most offensive stink comin' off this crap is the idiotic assumptions.

After that?

It's the dumb-fuck generalizations.

I spent many years of my life working at or barely above minimum wage. No health insurance. Yeah, man, I'm really a "snob". You got my number, dude.

Me and "my peers", my peers being... who? A "significant portion of Obama supporters"?

Based upon, I'm sure, a statistically accurate sampling of DU or maybe some folks you saw in line at Starbucks whose clothes you didn't like...

...yes, we are cruelly and unfairly mocking the asshole spinmeisters in the Clinton camp who have cynically adopted the WORST aspects of FOX NEWS anti-intellectualism and pure dumbass Bill O'shitstain idiotic meme pushing (Like, that liberals -you know, those of us who want a Single Payer Health Care system- are somehow "elitist") because, like I said, there's NOTHING FUCKING LEFT for her to run on.

That should be a big warning sign, right there. Her GAS TANK IS FUCKING EMPTY.

So she's throwing whatever desperate shit she can at Obama- Wright, flag pins, "your supporters are snobby elitist doo-doo heads" ... out of some last-ditch flailing hope that SOME of it will stick.


Oh, and by the way, Jack- I have ALWAYS said I would support the Democratic Nominee in the general.

ALWAYS.

[lumberjack_jeff]

134. I don't know about statistically accurate...

but I posted a poll a couple of weeks ago asking Obama supporters if they thought if Clinton will or should be McCain's runningmate. 28% of you said yes.

"Those peers" are that 28%. Is that a significant portion? YMMV. I say yes.

If you'll support the nominee, then we have something in common.

[Warren DeMontague]

145. Whatever that poll reflects, I'm not sure it has anything to do with whether Obama supporters

would vote for Hillary in the gen.

Probably, the poll to post in that regard would go something like, "Obama supporters, would you vote for Hillary Clinton if she is the Dem. nominee this year?"

I think that 28% probably reflects frustration at what has been a perception that at least once in the recent campaign, Hillary Clinton seemed to imply that she and John McCain are both somehow "qualified" to be President, while Obama is not.

A lot of people thought that particular statement crossed a line. Surely you see that.

I'll support the nominee, and I'll also say that anyone who WON'T support our nominee- WHOEVER he or she may be- is a flaming asshole. Because what is riding on this is bigger than either campaign or anyone's ego.

Pertaining to the subject at hand, though, I'm just personally tired of seeing this crappy, dumb-ass childish name-calling; be it "elites" or "latte liberals" or "white trash" or whateverthefuckitis done by people in my own party; i.e. folks I would think ought to know better.

Peace.

[lumberjack_jeff]

154. No, it didn't reflect lack of support for HRC in the general. It was worse than that.

It was reflective of the widespread belief among Obama supporters that Clinton supporters are not morally fit to be in their club.

If Obama's the nominee, 28% of the DU supporters who responded to the poll wouldn't expend a single calorie trying to solicit the votes of the other 15 million. The "I won't vote for Hillary nomatterwhat" faction is far larger.

I can understand how Clinton's response that she and McCain have comparable experience was frustrating to Obama supporters. It is unquestionable, though that Obama doesn't have anywhere near the experience that either of the other two do. FWIW, I don't consider that a fatal flaw, but it (combined with the equivocating he did at the beginning) does give Obama limited room to say "I opposed Iraq from the start". Well, so did I, but I wasn't a decisionmaker at the time either.

[Warren DeMontague]

173. "Obama doesn't have anywhere near the experience that either of the other two do."

You mean, he was never First Lady of the United States?

Hillary Clinton has a grand total of 8 -count 'em, 8- years experience in elected office.

Barack Obama has more.

As for "I wasn't a decisionmaker at the time"- about Iraq, well, neither was I; but I knew enough to know that Bush was telling LIES about the WMDs (somehow, I knew more than Hillary Clinton!), I knew enough to know that Iraq didn't have anything to do with 9-11, and I sure as shit would NOT have voted for that turd known as the IWR.

Personally, I'd rather have someone who was right about the war but not in place to vote against it than a "decisionmaker" who was around at the time to MAKE THE WRONG DECISION.

Edit: re- the poll, if you're determined to work yourself into a lather, overtime, over imaginary implications attached to that thing, I suppose no one can stop you- however, as I said upthread- if you want to make claims about "what %28 of Obama supporters believe", like "28% of Obama supporters think Hillary supporters aren't fit to be in their club" the way to have it make sense is to actualy post a poll that specifically ASKS Obama supporters if they "think Hillaey supporters aren't fit to be in their club".

Just a suggestion.

[TexasLady]

112. In SPITE of you, I'd still vote for Hillary as the Dem Nom.

But Don't flatter your elitist self.

[lumberjack_jeff]

115. Then we have common ground

Because I'd still vote for Obama despite his supporters.

[madrchsod]

113. yes i am and dam proud of it!

[lumberjack_jeff]

117. (they won't let you in without a tie. Or a shift key. Or an "n".)

[platosrepublic]

116. Having 109 Million dollars is ...

?

[lumberjack_jeff]

118. ...fun?

Plato's republic? Odd, I just had an enlightening conversation with an Obama supporter upthread who thought that Plato's ideal of the soldiers doing soldier-stuff, the civic leaders doing the civic stuff and the hoi-polloi simply doing what they're told was a pretty good setup. Much less messy than our anachronistic consent of the governed.

Gives a new perspective on the purpose of superdelegates.

[DesertRat]

119. After answering the questions you asked

I'd say no, I'm not an elitist.

[IndependentDem]

129. my answers

1.I have never used the term "low information voter" – No bonus points for me.
2.I do understand why "clinging to their religion" might be considered condescending-- i think it was a very poor choice of words... Lattes are too expensive so no bonus points here either.
3.I don’t think that name calling is ever constructive.
4.The gas tax holiday can be debated either way. I’m not completely convinced it will actually lower prices long enough to make a difference.
5.I am a college drop-out and I support Obama so I guess im not represented in that poll-- but i do find it interesting. I’m sure i have more than one typo so if that makes me an Elitist then i guess i am.

[graycem]

131. So you mean thinking people?

Then, yes, I'm a proud elitist. I wish more in this country were, then we wouldn't have suffered such destruction under Bush the last 7 years.


You might be a Republican if you've ever tried to label a Democrat "elitist" in order to score political points.

You might be a Republican if you've ever tried to label a Democrat a "pansy" or "girly-man" or "cajone-less"

You might be a Republican if you've ever voted for the Iraq war, and for the continued use of cluster bombs with no regard to the number of children or innocent civilians of another nation because they happen to be "brown".

You might be a Republican if you've ever used the term "obliterate" in order to make yourself sound like you're "tough."

You might be a Republican if you've ever used race baiting tactics as a campaign strategy.

You might be a Republican if you've ever used phrases like: "the haves, and the have mores, some people call you the elites, I call you my base" and "rich people, god bless us."

You might be a Republican if you still believe that Jesus is white.

You might be a Republican if you think it is a good idea to bring Jesus, and religion into the political arena.

You might be a Republican if....

I'm sure that plenty more of you lovely Obama supporters who have far more knowledge of all things political can add to this list. :D

[lumberjack_jeff]

133. Clinton supporters have ample experience fighting Republicans.

But they found a way to do it without treating working class voters as the subject of an anthropological study.

http://www.slate.com/id/2190378/

[graycem]

136. Oh they have ample Republican experience, alright...

They've been rather successful using Republican tactics, lies, and good ole' boy dog-whistles to ignite the worst in people. They did it by vouching for the Republican argument, before the Republicans had the opportunity to make it themselves by telling voters "he thinks he's better than you" with the same elitist tag that gets pinned on whichever Democratic candidate is put forth, and counting on the media doing its job dutifully and repeating that line every time his name is mentioned. Which in this case, is even more beneficial, since he's an "uppity black" candidate. Double bang for your elitist label buck.

The entire problem with your assumption is that it is false. Obama supporters are not primarily tofu eating, latte drinking, Prius driving, tree-huggers that look down their pointy noses at "the working class." In fact it would be hard for me to look down my nose at my entire family, my parents, my friends as they are my equals. I do believe that many, like myself, find it incredibly frustrating that despite everything those same "working class voters" would vote for someone based on false points like guns, God, and gays, when their guns will never be taken away, God will never be eliminated from the U.S., and gays are here to stay whether their homophobia can adjust or not. The frustration does not come from the idea that "I'm better because I eat organic or care more about the planet or refuse to shop at Wal-Mart." The frustration is I know that by voting that way, they are being had, duped, scammed, into CLINGING to their guns and religion in order to distract them from the real issues that actually affect them. Like a stupid war, bad economic policy, and allowing foreign government to buy our country bit by bit.

Fighting Republicans by using their same tactics is precisely that. They DO treat them as subjects of an anthropological study, she just uses the information gleaned to a different end, and doesn't let them in on the little secret which some will undoubtedly fall for, luckily some of us can see right through it because the last 7 years has taught us all a valuable lesson on the difference between "the good ole' boy" and the "elitist." I bet there are many wishing they could've had a redo in that election. Gasp! The good ole' boy tricked them again!

The bottom line is Obama has been labeled an elitist, not by any mistake or personal beliefs, or statements that he makes, or the way that he carries himself, but by your candidate to win the primary, acting like a Republican. She knew it would work, because it has worked ever so well for Republicans. So it's a mighty good thing that people aren't falling for it this time. But I have to admit, it would be rather sweet and ironic, if she managed to snag the nomination, watching the Republicans morph her into the "elitist" in the fall. :)

[eridani]

148. So NAFTA didn't pass? Congratulations on your success! n/t

[Two Americas]

138. no, arrogant and self-righteous people

Check up thread. People are proud to be that which they deny being. :silly:

It is "reverse beingism."

[Prophet 451]

139. If you read books, you're an elitist

I'm with Bill Maher on this one, the word "elitist" seems to mean if you're not a shitkicker from Kansas, you're with the terrorists.

Apparently, it's something to do with the arrogance of the coasts or the educated. Of course, the down-home, "just folks" people who endlessly talk about how humble they are, how patriotic, how they're much more "real Americans", could never be called arrogant. Apparently, "elitist" is what you get called when you admit the fact that some people are just plain dumb whereas if you treat the voter like a child, say exactly what they want to hear and pretend to be a shitkicker, you're not an elitist.

The irony here is that the pious volk in the heartland are far more elitist, far more exclusionary than anyone on the coasts. The lauding of flag pins, humility, rampant nationalism, the restment of anyone different, anyone who is educated, the not just simple ignorance but active hostility to education, those are truly elitist values, truly exclusionary. The heartland volk are their own form of elitist, an elitism they're fashioned from the belief that small-town values are superior.

[TheDonkey]

141. Decaf w/ Spenda sipping elitist checking in, I suppose

Hillary's gas tax holiday is a political STUNT.

Books are cool.

[barack the house]

149. You might be an elitist if you can lend you campaign 5 million dollars. EOM

[Alexander]

153. LOL! Nice. Obama doesn't even have that kind of money to toss around.

Yet he's somehow the "elitist".

:eyes:

[Alexander]

152. You're probably thinking "How dare Obama run. He should wait his turn."

And from there it's only a hop, skip and a jump to "uppity".

[TBF]

172. Right. It's Hillary's turn - don't let that young whippersnapper deny you your "promotion".

I wonder what all the other career senators, who have served 10+ years in the Senate, and haven't had their chance either are thinking.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

155. And bitter.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

156. No, I don't have $109 million lying around.

[DS1]

159. I think I'm better than you, for starters.

:)

[lumberjack_jeff]

162. I have a friend on another board whose .sig line reads:

"The downside of being better than everyone else is that people tend to assume that you're pretentious"

The upside of that attitude is that you have to be on your toes. :)

[rucky]

163. What if you think Hillary's pandering?

poorly.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2008/05/02/2008-05-02_welcome_to_the_machine_hillary.html

[lumberjack_jeff]

166. Do candidates ever pander to us and people like us?

Or is pandering reserved for people unlike us?

One persons "pandering to" is another person's "identifying with".

The "annie oakley act" was necessary. The NRA will actively oppose anyone with the faint scent of being "a gun grabber". Neither Obama nor Clinton can afford them as an enemy.

[rucky]

167. "people like us"

beg to be pandered to.

Insincerity can be smelled a mile away, however. The Obama=snob thing is manufactured. The Hillary=blue collar hero thing is manufactured. To manufacture an image that is not part of somebody's nature in order to win their favor, you either need to think you can act really well, or they're too stupid to know the difference.

People can tell the difference between pandering to and identifying with.

[lolamio]

164. I don't know if I'm an elitist, but at least I can pump my own gas. n/t

[rucky]

165. coffee, on the other hand...

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2008/05/02/2008-05-02_welcome_to_the_machine_hillary.html

[Ed76638]

168. Lets see....

1) I believe anyone who thinks the Rev. Wright controversy is more important than Iraq, health care, or the economy is a "low information voter".

2) I think Obama's words were poorly chosen, but he is correct. He word are on par with statements made by Bill Clinton.

3) Absolutley not. Thats not what I'm about.

4) McHillary gas tax suspension = FAIL!

5) LOL... I know it's wrong, but why are learned folk more likely to vote Obama. I'm still trying to wrap my head around that.


I guess I have a little bit of elitist in me because I like critical thinking and not easily manipulated by the whore press.

[bridgit]

171. I think DU thinks it's elitist, some clearly more than others but isn't that the point...

the worth, the value of elitism? To be higher than, or at least felt as though one is? To own that SUV? Hold that snooty 'holier than thou' political position? What is the point of being elitist unless you're able to carry your own massage with full release in the back of your head like a Manchurian implant?

Until the tables are turned on you: the elitist. Then it's all, "Hillary hates me!" "I hate Hillary for hating elitist'" "How DARE Hillary hate elitists!!!" When it is clear that if certain DUer's aren't able to claim the mantle of elitism...they are willing to paste it on every irregular surface like The Circus Is Coming Town posters for their candidate. You know? The one that makes fun of saving money cause he thinks there may be no American economist that will support the saving of money. Naw...

Elitism is small potato's. Like a really cool watch you are now able to buy at CostCo, or Sam's Club. People sitting in Toronto coffee/cafe' are able to view themselves as elite when they can still be boinked after smacking a baseball real hard from Buffalo. Oy! The perils of elitism :cry:

Which is only part of why my preference is esoteric.

It is no longer enough to keep up with the Jones'. One may consider doing better to remain *ahead* of those slackers :thumbsup:

[DevonRex]

174. Proud elitist here. nt

[Texas Hill Country]

176. LOL, K&R

[hokies4ever]

177. Payback will come

from all the Obama supporters who see this. If you thought the doctored Kantor video was one thing, you're in store for a rude awakening.

[lumberjack_jeff]

180. Bwahahaha!

:spray:

[Texas Hill Country]

181. what the hell are you even talking about?

[bridgit]

187. Social disruptions?

:dilemma:

[lumberjack_jeff]

190. I think he's promising to make a feature length film next time.

Complete with dubbed english and subtitles. Kind of like a meaner sort of MST3k.

[Burma Jones]

179. After these last 7 years, you bet your ass I'm Elitist

and if you think for a New York Minute I am buying this bullshit outta the Clinton campaign you're a lower information voter than Chuck Norris.

I'm such a Goddamned Elitist I wanted Bill Richardson to get the nomination because of his resume.

The only Democratic candidates I think weren't part of the Elite were Kucinich and Gravel, and I have my doubts abut Kucinich, I sat across the aisle from him and his even more stunning in person Wife at last Thursday's Eddie Izzard show at Constitution Hall.

I WANT Elite, if I wanted some doofus schmoe as President I'd be a Republican.

[Mass]

183. Coming from somebody who thinks that because she pays her credit card off in time, she understands

us, this is funny! (not you, your candidate)

http://www.abcnews.go.com/GMA/Vote2008/story?id=4783079&page=1

If Hillary Clinton understood us, she would know that we do not pay our credit card off in time because we are out of touch, but because we lack money!! Talk about being out of touch! (when you sit over more than $ 100 M!).

[jab105]

185. I wear sandals every day - its one of two pairs of shoes that I own...

but clearly, it makes me an elitist...

[Blue-Jay]

188. Point-by-point, but I don't know why I'm bothering.

1) if you've ever used the term "low information voter" you might be an elitist. Add bonus points if you've ever mentioned "Obama's vote against the Iraq war" on the same day.

I've never used that exact term (low information voter), but there are people who vote based upon very little information. A LOT of people. Not everyone follows all the ins-and-outs of politics like we do. That's not an insult - it's just the truth.

As far as your made up quote, it's stupid to say something like that, and anyone who does is probably in the above category. He certainly spoke out against IWR and the Iraq invasion, but wasn't in a position to vote against it at the time.

2) if you don't understand why "clinging to their religion" might be considered condescending, you might be an elitist.

It's not always smart to tell the truth. I'll give you that.

Bonus points if "latte liberal" is the most personally offensive phrase that is ever used to describe you.

It's odd when Democrats borrow cute little terms like that from Republicans to describe other Democrats. I'm not offended, I just think it's a stupid thing to say.

Triple bonus points if you agree with the statement that Obama is here because of "God, fate, destiny or providence".

I'm an atheist, so I disagree with dumb statements like that. I also disagree with folks who so cavalierly throw out terms like "cult" and "messiah" to describe the relationship between Sen Obama and his supporters. It's intellectually dishonest, and people who do are only doing it only to be douchebags.

3) if you've ever recommended a post or wrote to a media company in support of anyone "exercising their free speech rights" to call other democrats "white trash" or "ignorant white fucks", you might be an elitist. Bonus points if you wrote the post in question.

I haven't done any of those things. I suspect I'm in the majority in refraining from such stupidity.

4) if you've ever ridiculed Hillary's gas tax plan because it wouldn't lower gas prices, while simultaneously praising Obama's plan despite the fact that Obama's plan would raise gas prices, you might be an elitist. Bonus points if you think that the residents of ruralsville, IA should take their kids 20 miles to school in the snow on electric bikes.

I don't get how Sen Clinton's gas tax vacation is *supposed* to work. It seems as though she wants to implement it this summer, but to do that a bill would need to be written (is it written yet?), and pass both houses of Congress with a veto-proof margin, as it WOULD get vetoed by Dubya. How is this supposed to happen in the following month? In other words, I believe that she's pandering to the many folks who think "Hey... I'd LOVE to pay lower taxes on gas for two months! What a great idea!" To quote Sen Clinton, that idea is "just words".

The last sentence in point #4 is too ridiculous to address. Who thinks *that*?

5) if you've ever written a post saying "Polls show that college-educated folks vote for Obama. Hmmm... I wonder why that is?" you might be an elitist. Add one point for each typo. Two points for each smiley.

Polls show that Democrats with higher levels of education do indeed lean more strongly towards Sen Obama than they do towards Sen Clinton. It's a trend, but if someone implies that only stupid people support Sen Clinton, they are only showing their own ignorance.

I haven't used any smilies, and if I made a typo or two I hope that you'll forgive me. I HAVE, on the other hand, addressed your post in an adult and (I think) respectful manner. You should realize that most supporters of Sen Obama or Sen Clinton are not given to idiotic statements, hero-worship, inflammatory statements, hyperbole, or exaggeration. That is why many long-time DUers have pretty much written GDP off. It's gotten too difficult to wade through all the dumb shit that is posted here only for the purpose of sewing discord and playing a juvenile game of "GOTCHA!". If *that* statement makes me an "elitist" in your eyes, I can live with it.

[lumberjack_jeff]

191. You missed the satirical point a little.

As far as #3 goes, more than 100 people recommended the "ignorant white fucks" post. If it's a minority, it's a very sizeable one.

[Blue-Jay]

192. Perhaps I did miss the "satire".

And as far as #3 goes: Due to work and pit orchestra rehearsals, that story had already been discussed and debunked before I even knew about it.

My point in replying is that I'm sick of the name-calling, flaming poo-flings and hyperbole that seems to serve as an alternative to discussion around here.

Time for dinner. Maybe I'll check in later, maybe not.

[ihelpu2see]

189. If you release tax returns showing over 100 million dollars in earnings... you might be... But if

you have over 1.5 million contributers to your campaign... oh yeh but Sen. Clinton does not..... oops.