I will not vote in November if Hillary Clinton gets the Michigan delgate vote to count

[Ian_rd]

I'm torn about Florida, but not about Michigan. Obama was not even on the ballot. If Clinton wheels and deals to get these illegitimate and clearly flawed delegate votes to count, then I will stay home on Election Day. They're calling it the "nuclear" option. Well I consider that label appropriate, because this is the mutually assured destruction in response. If Michigan counts, I stay home. Please kick this if you feel the same way. I feel a petition is in order to Howard Dean with the same message. Why? Because we need to sink this notion that Hillary is more electable than Obama against McCain. A good way to illustrate that is a promise to stay home if she robs the nomination from the will of the voters.

And to all you brothers in sisters in Michigan: Obama isn't disenfranchising you - your state Democratic Party did when they moved your primary up before February 5th with the FULL KNOWLEDGE that your votes would not be counted.

[BlooInBloo]

1. Clinton signed off on sanctioning both of them.

[Waya]

2. I don't think that'll happen...........

...............Florida as is, maybe - Michigan, no way. Maybe split the Michigan delegates 50/50 might be an option - but I don't think they will be seated as is............

[Blomst]

85. Obama had no chance to campaign in Florida,

and was new and unknown to the voters at that time. He has had to work extremely hard in each new state to make a name for himself and get his message across. The odds have always been against him compared to Hillary's fame and ins with the establishment, but when people get to know him, they tend to rally around him. Hillary got many of the Florida votes through sheer name recognition, and therefore it is unfair to let those votes be counted for Hillary. Talk about ruthless cheating and bending of the rules!

[LisaM]

3. I don't even know what to say to you

I will tell you, that when my mother in Michigan gets fundraising letters from the DNC (yes, they have the balls to send them) she writes, "if you don't want my vote, why do you want my money?" on the envelope and sends it back.

Michigan had real economic issues it wanted addressed - that's why they wanted to move up in the primary. Surprise, surprise, those are now the issues facing the entire country.

Thank you for caring.

[Waya]

6. Sorry, but rules are rules......

....they broke them - not the voters fault. However, should we now change the rules in midgame, even tho Michigan knew upfront what the consequence will be? I think not. Have the voters of Michigan take it up with their State legislature.

[Yes We Did]

8. That's right, which is exactly why they shouldn't have broken the rules.

They have the same problems as states like PA and OH. What makes them more important?

We have rules for a reason. They broke them and knew the consequences.

Hillary pledged to follow the rules.

You cannot change them when you don't get the result you want.

[LisaM]

15. Actually, Michigan had been in a one-state recession for a long time

It was discussed as such. I know people who have housess in Michigan they can't sell. I know a construction worker who has to leave his family for months at a time and work in other states. I know that in Flint they are selling house for $1 if you buy the house next door.

The economy is bad in a lot of places, but it has been worse in Michigan for a while. They lost 23,500 people in population last year alone. Did Pennsylvania lose population? Did Ohio?

Do you even know?

Treating Michigan the way the DNC has is heartless and stupid. And it's clear that many here don't care, either.

There's a reason the DNC coffers are hurting while Obama and Clinton rake in all the contributions.

[Romulox]

33. Part of the reason Obama has disrespected Michigan is that HE HAS NO ANSWERS

for Michigan problems.

Aside from a few lame mumblings regarding NAFTA (which Barack Obama supports, please make no mistake!) Barack Obama is the most vulnerable with regard to the economy.

He simply seems to have no interest in the economic woes of Michigan whatever. As I've said, many, many times--there is no rule preventing Barack Obama giving one of his trademark "unifying" speeches regarding the economic despair here in Michigan.

You won't hear such a speech from Barack Obama.

[Waya]

37. You know............

......it isn't exactly a bed of roses here in PA either. We're rural - and the last factory that is still here is starting lay-offs and cutting down to 4 days a week - that's from 7 days a week. I personally know people who can literally not afford Gas anymore. I see people walking now that I never thought would walk anywhere - let alone for miles. Yes, we have people leave because they just can't make it. For sale signs and foreclosure signs are multiplying. For sale signs on trucks and SUV's are on every corner (not necessarily all bad, that). I see people standing in the Grocery stores shaking their heads wondering what they can buy on their budgets - food is outrageous.

Michigan hasn't cornered the market on this. It's bad everywhere.

[LisaM]

49. Yes, I agree. And Pennsylvania went for Hillary.

Michigan probably would have too.

If Pennsylvania or Ohio had wanted to go earlier, I would have supported that. I believe that the issues in the Rust Belt matter. I think it's disingenuous to offer up an early Democratic primary to South Carolina, which won't vote Democratic in the GE anyway.

My point, which no one gets and no one seems to care about, is that there are a lot of people who are being hurt by this economy who now have no say in the nominating process. And the response here is a big F*** you. You want Guam to count more towards picking a nominee than Pennsylvania? How would you feel if it was you?

[Waya]

60. I'm an Obama supporter - all the way........

......so I wasn't too happy that my State went for Hillary - I dunno if PA will go Dem this November or not. It has been a while since that happened.
I couldn't care less about Guam - they don't vote in the General anyways. If this would have happened here in PA - our State Government would know about it next time they're up - there might be hell to pay. I would not expect the DNC to change rules half way thru the game when the State Government knew upfront what would happen if they went ahead and broke the rules. I would put the blame where it belongs - the State legislature.

Sorry, Hillary or Obama - it doesn't matter - both signed off on seating those delegates if the States went ahead and moved their Primaries up against Party rules. You cannot seat your delegates as is if one of the Candidates wasn't even on the ballot - come on now.

[LisaM]

63. I think they should have held a second primary in both states

However, I can see why Obama voters would be against it. He wouldn't win Florida, and he probably wouldn't win Michigan. So they get on their high horse about rules, and screw the voters.

It's like Sandra Day O'Conner, Jim Baker, and Kenneth Blackwell. They got on their high horse about rules, too.

[sfam]

They should have held their primary when it was scheduled...would have made a huge difference...

Instead, they changed it to a time that they knew the DNC would not approve. Personally I would have just stripped half their delegates and called it a day, but the DNC saw differently. We can quibble with their punishment, but it seems clear to most everyone but Hillary apologists that Michigan did not constitute a real election under DNC rules.

[Waya]

82. Yes, they should have held another Primary.......

...then I would say - ok, seat them, no matter what the results are. It would be fair at least. And I must say - Hillary was all for signing off on seating Florida and Michigan. Of course, that was when she thought she would be sweeping this nomination by Super Tuesday at the latest. When she thought she would be the nominee by a land slide anywhere thruout the Country. She made the same mistake Bush did - no Plan B. So now she whines and comes up with fanatstic new math - it's something I must say.
I'm all for seating Michigan and Florida. Florida, at least Obama was on the ballot - so that could squeak by. But Michigan? NO! Not as is.......split them 50/50 and I'll shut up and give a thumbs up!

[LisaM]

99. 50/50? You have to be kidding me.

That would benefit Obama (as did the way it all played out). It all benefits Obama! Does Obama feel compunction? No!

[Waya]

121. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh ...... I see....

So we should seat the delegates of a State which has blatantly broken the rules and were told upfront what the consequences would be - and where one Candidate wasn't even on the ballot - and where both Candidates have agreed that the delegates of said State will not be seated. We should seat them and pretty much say - well, ya'll broken the rules but you shouldn't be punished because that would benefit the Candidate that wasn't on the ballot? What kind of reasoning is that? It's ok that we do something not quite proper, if not illegal, as long as it doesn't benefit Obama? If it benefits Clinton not quite proper, if not illegal, is alright?
I'm losing patience with Michigan - I was trying to be understanding but sorry. Michigan broke the rules, they didn't want a do-over, they don't want the 50/50 option or the half- point option - tough crap, then. Don't be seated.

[LisaM]

127. 50/50 is not doing anything but benefiting Obama

That's why Obama supporters like the option.

Obama did not want a revote.

[gal]

129. Actually your wrong so trying looking up the facts before you bad mouth someone.

Obama did want the revote but it wanted it done in a way that was fair to the people that already voted and to those who did not.
Isn't that the way it should be or is it all about the Clinton votes now?

[Tyler Durden]

133. Obama wanted a revote that would have allowed EVERY Republican in the state

To vote in a Democratic Primary. AND he wanted another of his "Caucuses" (See: TEXAS). We no longer do caucuses in Michigan. We prefer to here everyone VOTE.

This is going to bite Obama on the ASS in November, IF he gets the nomination. And he desperately needs Michigan.

[LisaM]

135. I disagree very much with his argument

He thought that people who went over and voted Republican were being disenfranchised if another primary was held. My thoughts on that are very different. If someone goes over to make mischief in another party's primary, and thus loses the right to vote in their own, well, maybe they should have thought about that. I know full well that there are people in Washington state who voted in the caucus for one party and in the primaries (which didn't count for Democrats but did for Republicans) in another. I called the elections office and they told me it was on the honor system and they would not compare the lists.

[Exilednight]

138. Why aren't you pissed off at the people who really screwed you? You're state party leaders .....

They were told of the consequences of moving up the election before they cast a single vote to decide on the matter. When you tell a child, "don't touch that or else you'll go in timeout", do you regret putting the child in timeout?

[LisaM]

153. Of course they are at fault too.

But it doesn't mean that something couldn't be worked out. The Republicans managed to do it.

At this point, it's unfixable. And we could well lose Michigan and Florida in the GE.

[reflection]

130. Isn't that the truth.

My neighborhood in Memphis is starting to look like a ghost town. It's sad.

[leftynyc]

117. Funny thing about rules

You know the rules also claim the superdelegates and even the pledged delegates have no obligation to follow the "voters" wishes. Kerry and Kennedy are both going to vote for SEn Obama even though their state voted for Hillary and I don't hear anyone here complaining about that.

But g-d forbid the supers give the nomination to Hillary - that'll be the end of civilization as we know it. There is absolutely no consistency on this board - it's very amusing.

[Avalux]

10. That's bullshit and you know it.

This is about Hillary Clinton's obvious skirting of the rules; rules that Michigan broke. Have your mother take it up with her state officials.

And you know what? I live in Texas and aside from this year, my vote NEVER counts.

I won't vote for Hillary either, just like millions of other Dems and she'll lose the GE. She probably believes we'll all be good little Dems and fall in behind her no matter what. Nope.

[LisaM]

24. Spare me.

Michigan has gone reliably blue since 1992. You can hardly say that about Texas. It's STUPID for the DNC to dismiss Michigan the way it has.

[Avalux]

27. They broke the rules.

Sorry you can't understand that.

[LisaM]

40. And, they tried to change them BACK but were filibustered by a GOP minority

Sorry YOU can't understand THAT.


In law, and this was something that came out in Bush v. Gore, there is the letter of the law, and the SPIRIT of the law. I passionately believe in the latter. It was the letter of the law that creeps like Kennth Blackwell adhered to when he insisted, for example, that voter registration forms needed to be returned on a certain weight of paper. Well, technically, he didn't have to accept them if they weren't on the right kind of paper. So, people who returned them on a different kind of paper broke the rules. So their registrations shouldn't have been accepted.......


See where I'm going? (Well, actually, you probably don't). This is about PEOPLE. PEOPLE whose votes should count.

This sounds like Sandra Day O'Conner and her "equal protection" arguments in Bush v. Gore. The point is to enfranchise, not disenfranchise. If you, and Obama, are comfortable "winning" the nomination knowing that you have disenfranchised millions of voters in two key states, then I hope you enjoy your Pyrrhic victory.

[mckeown1128]

54. When you guys hold a free and open primary then you will count.

MI has yet to hold a sectioned primary. When you have primary votes to count then they will be counted. The vote must reflect the will of the people of MI. Just because you want Hillary to be president doesn't mean that YOU can just claim that Hillary get such and such amount of delegates.

[LisaM]

59. You are so illustrating that you do not care

about the people of Michigan.

People do not elect local government based on when they try to hold primaries. I find that argument very lame.

Answer this question: do you CARE about the voters in Michigan? Or Florida? Do you care at ALL? You seem to have nothing but scorn for them. Well, don't count on them in the GE. They may not turn out.

[mckeown1128]

112. I have no scorn for voters in MI and FL...

and I want them to hold a primary so they can have delegates seated at the convention. I want them to have their voices heard. To do that they need to hold primaries.

[SwampG8r]

149. im a floridian

and i ask you to speak only for yourself
our state party betrayed us in a partisan effort by embedded DLC member to benefit hillary clinton
they voted 115-1 with the gop
i dont want a single super from florida sat
and if we lose our pledged delegation also
tough nuts
the party leaders did it and they did it gladly
they literally laughed as they went to vote on it
im a grown up and part of being an ADULT is accepting the punishments that come with poor behaviour

[LisaM]

75. Your candidate

worked actively to deny a re-do in Michigan.

[mckeown1128]

113. My candidate did no such thing.

Just because you say it... doesn't make it true.


Proof please, link please, any shred of verifiable evidence please....

[Voltaire]

89. These decisions were made before Obama was a serious player in this race

So what does HE have to do with the original crime of disenfranchising Michigan? That's all folks are trying to say, put the blame where it belongs. Now that the game is shifted from how everyone assumed it would turn out, all of a sudden its OBAMA that is on the hook to make things right? I don't think so. I understand your anger at the situation and I agree, it sucks rocks and there is blame to go around, but OBAMA did not take away your vote. And he is not REQUIRED to give you a redo.

[spoony]

88. And children should be jailed for the crimes of their parents

It all makes so much sense now!

[Avalux]

103. That statement makes no sense.

Just like another Hillary supporter telling me that because I live in a red state, my vote counts less than someone who lives in a blue state.

[spoony]

115. Clean out the lint trap

between your ears and get the point: don't punish VOTERS for what the LEGISLATORS do. The right to vote matters more than ego-tripping over dates.

[Avalux]

119. Typical to resort to personal insults.

I am neither dumb nor deaf. The POINT is that Hillary said the votes would not count, then changed her tune when it suited her. Her feigned concern for the voters is so transparent I can't believe people buy into it.

[spoony]

124. This isn't really about Hillary

It's about voters and whether their leaders' sins should ever be used as excuses to cancel out their voices in an election. You want to feel a personal insult? Have the leader of your national party take your vote away because someone else pissed in his cornflakes.

[SwampG8r]

151. wow

logic says your vote is more important as it could tip a swing from red to blue
but logic
like math
eludes them now

[stillcool]

51. The Michigan Democratic Party..

needs to start it's own party. Maybe Michigan and Florida can get together and be the "Rogue Democratic Party"..that way they can make up their own rules, and change them along the way as often as they wish.

Lawmakers in US state Michigan approve moving presidential primary to January despite rules
The Associated Press
Published: August 30, 2007

LANSING, Michigan: Michigan lawmakers have approved moving the state's U.S. presidential nomination contests to January, three weeks earlier than party rules allow, as states continue to challenge the traditional primary election calendar to gain influence in the race.

Democratic Gov. Jennifer Granholm is expected to sign the bill passed Thursday that would move the contest to Jan. 15, but approval of the switch is far from certain. A disagreement among state Democratic leaders over whether to hold a traditional ballot vote or a more restricted caucus is complicating final action.

If the date moves up, Michigan Democrats risk losing all their national convention delegates, while Republicans risk losing half.
------------------------------------
"We understand that we're violating the rules, but it wasn't by choice," Michigan Republican Chairman Saul Anuzis said, noting that state Democrats first proposed moving the date to Jan. 15.
"We're going to ask for forgiveness and we think ... we will get forgiveness."
----------------------------------
Florida Democrats decided to move their state's primary to Jan. 29. The national party has said it will strip Florida of its presidential convention delegates unless it decides within the next few weeks to move the vote to a later date.
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/08/31/america/NA-POL-US-Primary-Scramble.php?WT.mc_id=rssap_america

Democrats vow to skip defiant states
Six candidates agree not to campaign in those that break with the party's calendar. Florida and Michigan, this includes you.
By Mark Z. Barabak, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
September 2, 2007
The muddled 2008 presidential nomination calendar gained some clarity Saturday -- at least on the Democratic side -- as the party's major candidates agreed not to campaign in any state that defies party rules by voting earlier than allowed.

Their collective action was a blow to Florida and Michigan, two states likely to be important in the general election, which sought to enhance their clout in the nominating process as well.
Front-runner Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York followed Sen. Barack Obama of Illinois and former Sen. John Edwards of North Carolina in pledging to abide by the calendar set by the
Democratic National Committee last summer. The rules allow four states -- Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina -- to vote in January.
The four "need to be first because in these states ideas count, not just money," Edwards said in a written statement. "This tried-and-true nominating system is the only way for voters to judge the field based on the quality of the candidate, not the depth of their war chest."

Hours later, after Obama took the pledge, Clinton's campaign chief issued a statement citing the four states' "unique and special role in the nominating process" and said that the New York senator, too, would "adhere to the DNC-approved calendar."

Three candidates running farther back in the pack -- New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson and Sens. Christopher J. Dodd of Connecticut and Joseph R. Biden Jr. of Delaware -- said Friday they would honor the pledge, shortly after the challenge was issued in a letter co-signed by Democratic leaders in the four early states.
--
Despite that warning, Michigan lawmakers moved last week to jump the queue, voting to advance the state's primary to Jan. 15.

Michigan defies parties, moves up primary date
JAN. 15 DECISION COULD SET OFF STAMPEDE OF STATES
By Stephen Ohlemacher
Associated Press
Article Launched: 09/05/2007 01:34:57 AM PDT

WASHINGTON - Michigan officially crashed the early primary party Tuesday, setting up showdowns with both political parties and likely pushing the presidential nomination calendar closer to 2007.

Gov. Jennifer Granholm signed a bill moving both of Michigan's presidential primaries to Jan. 15. Michigan's move threatens to set off a chain reaction that could force Iowa and New Hampshire to reschedule their contests even earlier than anticipated, perhaps in the first week in January 2008 or even December 2007.
-------------------------------------------
The national parties have tried to impose discipline on the rogue states. On the Republican side, states that schedule contests before Feb. 5 risk losing half their delegates to next summer's convention, though some are banking that whoever wins the GOP nomination will eventually restore the delegates.
Democrats have experienced similar problems, but party officials hoped they had stopped the mad dash to move up by threatening to strip Florida of all its convention delegates for scheduling a primary Jan. 29 and by persuading the major Democratic candidates to campaign only in the party-approved early states.

The decision by the major Democratic candidates to campaign only in approved early states renders voting in the rogue states essentially non-binding beauty contests.
http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_6804685?source=rss

Kucinich Files Affidavit To Remove Name From Michigan's Primary Shortly Before Deadline

October 10, 2007 8:19 a.m. EST
Ayinde O. Chase - AHN Staff
http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7008781843
Dover, NH (AHN) - The Kucinich for President campaign Tuesday afternoon officially requested that Kucinich's name be withdrawn from the Michigan Democratic primary ballot. The affidavit came by way of to the Michigan Secretary of State's office.The Ohio Congressman and Democratic Presidential candidates
National Campaign manager Mike Klein said in the statement, "We signed a public pledge recently, promising to stand with New Hampshire, Nevada, South Carolina, and the DNC-approved 'early window', and the action we are taking today protects New Hampshire's first-in-the-nation primary status, and Nevada's early caucus."
The statement continued: "We support the grassroots nature of the New Hampshire, small-state primary, and we support the diversity efforts that Chairman Dean and the DNC instituted last year, when they added Nevada and South Carolina to the window in January 2008. We are obviously committed to New Hampshire's
historic role." Klein who actually recently moved to Dover said, "We will continue to adhere to the DNC-approved primary schedule."

Governor Granholm and other Michigan Democratic leaders have openly criticized the decision by several presidential candidates to keep their names off the state primary ballot. The Michigan lawmakers are taken back by Barack Obama, Joe Biden, John Edwards and Bill Richardson's decision to withdraw their names from the January 15th ballot.

The only ones who remain on Michigan's primary ballot are Hillary Clinton, Mike Gravel and Chris Todd.

December 1, 2007, 11:42 am
Democrats Strip Michigan of Delegates
By The New York Times

In a widely expected move, the Democratic National Committee voted this morning to strip Michigan of all its 156 delegates to the national nominating convention next year. The state broke the party’s rules by holding its primary on Jan. 15. Only Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina and Nevada are allowed to hold contests prior to Feb. 5.

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/12/01/democrats-strip-michigan-delegates/

Editorial: Follow DNC rules on seating delegates
February 25, 2008
By Editorial Board

On September 1, the campaigns of Clinton and Senator Barack Obama (D-Ill.) issued press releases stating that they had signed pledges affirming the DNC’s decision to approve certain representative states and sanction others for moving their nominating contests earlier. But now that the race is close, Clinton — whose top advisor Harold Ickes voted as a member of the DNC to strip Florida and Michigan of their delegates — is pushing for the delegates to be seated.
Her argument is that not doing so disenfranchises the 1.7 million Florida Democrats who voted and that her pledge promised only that she wouldn’t campaign in the states, not that she wouldn’t try to seat the delegates. However, the results of the contests in Florida and Michigan are not necessarily representative of the voters’ preferences in those states. Given that most of the candidates removed their names from the
Michigan ballot, and that many voters stayed home from the vote in Florida with the understanding that their contest would not affect the final delegate count, the delegate totals that the candidates accumulated in these states may not accurately reflect the will of the voters. Had there been no restrictions in Michigan and Florida, the turnout, and thus the results, may have been different.

The Four State Pledge all candidates signed on Aug. 28 stated, “Whereas, the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee will strip states of 100% of their delegates and super delegates to the DNC National Convention if they violate the nomination calendar...

Therefore, I ____________, Democratic Candidate for President, in honor and in accordance with DNC rules ...pledge I shall not campaign or participate in any election contest occurring in any state not already authorized by the DNC to take place in the DNC approved pre-window.” When the candidates pledged to campaign only in approved states, they were also agreeing to the terms listed above, which explicitly mentioned stripping noncompliant states of their entire delegation.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) recently said that the Florida and Michigan delegates should not be seated if they would decide the nomination. Other compromise proposals include holding new nominating contests in these states, but such contests would be expensive and cumbersome. The irony is that had Florida and Michigan not moved up their primaries, they would have voted in February and March, when they would have been even more important than in earlier months in determining the Democratic nominee — and would not have created an enormous controversy that has the potential to divide the party.
http://daily.stanford.edu/article/2008/2/25/editorialFollowDncRulesOnSeatingDelegates

[RainDog]

94. PLEASE post this as a separate thread!!!

thank you for putting this together.

[leftofcool]

31. Millions of others? ROFLMAO

[TheDoorbellRang]

106. You realize this isn't the first time MI pulled this trick?

They went early back in 2004, too. Then, McAuliffe threatened to not seat them at the convention, but backed down and they were seated.

Result? In 2008 not only does MI pull the same stunt again, but FL jumps ahead too.

If there are no consequences for bad behavior, maybe we'll get 10 states butting in line in 2012.

[Dr. Strange]

147. Excellent point.

And if they get away with it again, we'll start seeing Primaries before Christmas. I hope Dean stands his ground. And I hope the MI voters kick their politicians out for allowing this crap to happen.

[PoliticalAmazon]

136. Don't blame the DNC for MI's primary issues. Look to your state which....

....was aware of the rules and voted anyway.

As far as leting the DNC know....I applaud that 110%. It won't make any differnce. The DNC stopped listening to its voters years ago.

[WVRevy]

141. Bullshit. They wanted to feel important.

That's the ONLY reason they moved the primary up.

[SwampG8r]

152. actually

i saw a dem(DLC) on TV saying at the time that it would be a big tourism plus at a time when business was slowing and supporting the change for that reason

[Redbear]

4. You actually would be so mad about Michigan you would allow McCain to

become president?

[Texas Hill Country]

5. that is what i was thinking...

[Independent-Voter]

7. What's the difference? McCain=Clinton at this point.

I'll be voting in November, both not for either to those 2 clowns.

[Yes We Did]

11. Ding Ding Ding!

They vote the same. They use the same campaign stragegy. They employ the same people.

What is the difference?

[greguganus]

47. The difference is one wears suit pants and the other wears pantsuits. n/t

[leftynyc]

120. Have you actually compared their voting records

or is the war your one and only reason for voting for Sen Obama? If you think Hillary and MCcain vote exactly the same, you don't have a fucking clue.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

52. This is the same idiotic argument used on Gore in 2000.

How'd that work out for you, genius?

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[spoony]

90. Another poster for unity and hope

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

91. This one ought to be fairly easy to disprove...

These organizations are just a few to completely and totally disagree with you:

Citizens for Global Solutions - www.globalsolutions.org
National Education Association - http://www.nea.org/lac/senate.html
Club for Growth - http://www.clubforgrowth.org/2007/11/the_clubs_2007_senate_repork_c.php
AFL-CIO - http://www.aflcio.org/issues/legislativealert/votes/vr_memb.cfm
National Journal (subscriber only)
US Chamber of Commerce - http://www.uschamber.com/issues/legislators/soe.htm
ACLU - http://action.aclu.org/site/VoteCenter?page=congScorecard&congress=110&location=S&lcmd=next&lcmd_cf=

You know, just to name a few that have come up with drastic differences. But, keep your ignorant opinions if you must - I know you worked very little to form them.

[WeDidIt]

97. If she nukes, she's liable to do anytthing

If she's willing to nuke the party, she's liable to appoint somebody to the SCOTUS who makes Alito look liberal.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

100. That's really not at all the point the person I was responding to was making.

And I highly, HIGHLY doubt that she'd appoint anyone that's more conservative that Alito, no matter what asinine action she takes in this situation.

[WeDidIt]

116. I could never trust her judgement if she nukes

She'd be too much of a loose cannon to have her finger on the button. Even more of a loose cannon than Grandpa McCain.

[shaniqua6392]

12. That is a great point.

I am from Michigan and regardless of what they decide to do with my primary vote, I would never in a million years contribute to McCain becoming President. I will vote for the Democratic nominee without hesitation.

[FuzzyDicePHL]

107. McSame becoming pres is just part of the horror

Let's also not forget what could happen to the Supreme Court if he wins. Dems need to win the GE in order to keep some lights on in what Repubs are trying to make the New Dark Ages.

I am grateful to you for handling your potential disappointment over the Dem nominee like an adult and keeping the greater good in mind. :)

[CakeGrrl]

17. In agreement with the OP

I didn't sanction the theft of the 2000 and 2004 elections with my vote, nor will I sign onto an illegal vote grab in 2008 just because a "Democrat" is doing it.

A stand on this principle is more solid, in my opinion, than HRC supporters who have said they will not vote for Obama not because he has done anything illegal or immoral in gaining the nomination, but simply because they do not feel he "deserves" it or is "qualified". I've seen those justifications posted.

[AllentownJake]

20. I've had 8 years

Of someone who goes against the pledge he took the day he took office in 2001 to uphold and defend the constitution of the US. I can't risk someone who views pledges or oaths to follow rules as something to be discarded when its politcally convienent. If her word to the party isn't good, what makes me think her word to the US Constitution will be any better.

[Triana]

21. McCain, Hillary - not much diff. BOTH are Republicans n/t

[WeDidIt]

22. IF Hillary Clinton nukes the Democratic Party

Then McCain is the lesser of the two evils.

[HelenWheels]

36. What are you thinking?

Vote for McCain if you want more Alitos in the Supreme Court. Vote for McCain if you want the troops to continue dying in Iraq. Quit stamping your feet and having tantrums. Grow up and get to the polls and vote for a Democrat.

[WeDidIt]

41. Not a tantrum

If Hillary Clinton is willing to reverse the rules after Obama has already won in order to steal the nomination, then McCain is the lesser fo the two evils.

[leftofcool]

44. McCain is the lesser of the two evils? OMG

You heard it here folks, right on "Democratic Underground."

[WeDidIt]

53. Under the Nuclear Option, yes, McCain would be the lesser of the evils

IF she is capable of convincing enough super delegates to vote for her in order to reach 2024.5, she's got my vote.

If she wins by seating Michigan, though, then she would be the greater evil when compared to McCain.

[leftofcool]

67. The I am assuming you will be voting for McCain or not casting a vote

[WeDidIt]

77. IF Hillary wins the nomination under the nuclear option

she will be the most evil candidate on my ballot.

[Stand and Fight]

96. Pretty stupid statement on your part...

Especially considering your handle. You Obama folks had better wake the hell up and stop the nonsense. Hillary Clinton is a Democrat. To say she is a Republican in any way only shows your absolutely and deep ignorance of the facts and, most importantly, her record. I'm not an Obama supporter, and I would never say he's not a Democrat just because I don't agree with him. Same for Hillary Clinton. I don't agree with her on several issues, but there is no way in hell she's evil or corrupt -- as you folks try to paint her to be. You're as sickening to me as most Republicans have been the last eight years.

[WeDidIt]

102. The nuclear option is the only case where I would consider that.

If she can convince the Super Delegates to give her the nomination even after Obama wins the most pledged delegates, she's got my vote. Heck, I can even take Florida being seated with a half vote each (because that's the minimum penalty for leapfrogging).

If she wins because she gets Michigan seated after Obama removed his name from the ballot at the direct request of the DNC, she is the most evil person on my ballot.

[Ian_rd]

28. Even after the right-wing wet dream of a campaign she's run, even after her countless lies and ...

her voting record against the Constitution, Our Rights, and Common Decency, such a move by her to win the nomination at all costs would finally convince me that I have nothing to gain or preserve by voting for her in a Clinton-McCain contest. And I will not allow her to win in such undemocratic and dishonest means and then turn to me and say, "I'm still better than McCain!" Such a tactic is essentially getting votes through coercion, and when I'm in the voting booth, nobody twists my arm because I live in a goddamn free country.

I take it back, I would vote. But I would write in "Barack Obama."

[leftofcool]

35. It is hard to imagine but this meme is only prevelant on DU

In the real world, it is most definitely not true

[burythehatchet]

9. cosigned.

[Avalux]

13. Neither will I.

I will not be forced to vote for her just because I am a Democrat.

[BallardWA]

56. Nor I n/t

[crankychatter]

14. no campaigning in Florida - Clinton winning early due to name recognition

bogus, Soviet style election with skewed results

I'm not conflicted whatsoever

Seating either or both of these delegations, if it sways the nomination to Clinton will be the death nell of the Democratic Party

Clinton cannot win the General Election... no chance in hell

Obama will be hard pressed to win because of Clinton shortening the campaign time

Keeping this up until the last minute before the General Election will make it impossible to organize a resistance prior to November

This is really a fight for WW3 and Civil Liberty

[Triana]

16. MI primary was even declared unconstitional wasn't it?

And YET AGAIN Obama gets blamed for something HE didn't do - As Ian_rd says, OBAMA didn't disenfranchise anyone. The state Dem parties did when they wanted their primaries moved up KNOWING that those delegates wouldn't be seated.

Obama AND Clinton agreed to this.

BUT - now that Clinton is LOSING she wants to CHANGE that.

You don't hear Obama's campaign whining or threatening about it. Only Clinton's.

[crankychatter]

18. I've been voting for the lesser of evils for 35 years

it would be nice to have an opportunity to do something different

but I ain't swearing no holy oaths

[Romulox]

19. The OP demonstrates the absolute madness of allowing red-state "Democrats for a day"

to demand that millions of the traditional base be disenfranchized.

And when Iowa and North Carolina give their scant EC votes to John McCain in November, we'll all be forced to ask ourselves, Why in the hell did we care so much about who tiny, unrepresentative, right-leaning red states wanted to be the Democratic nominee in the first place? :shrug:

[AllentownJake]

25. I think you meant

South Carolina....

If the rules were terrible she had all the time in the world to say she disagreed with them in August.

[Romulox]

50. I can't fathom why we need *two* Carolinas to begin with, nor why these right-leaning

Carolinians are so much more important than Floridians or Michiganders. :shrug:

Or, for that matter, why the "progressive" Barack Obama gets most of his support from people in North Dakota, Montana, Iowa, etc. (many of whom supported W last time!), and bombs out with traditional dem consituencies? :shrug:

[hfojvt]

23. staying home is just stupid

There are congressional races, Governor races, state legislature races, and maybe Senate races to vote on. Those have nothing to do with the Presidential race. Even if Hillary steals the nomination, I would still rather have a D representing me in Congress and in the State house than an R ignoring me. You might be able to vote for Cynthia McKinney for President.

[WeDidIt]

29. Obama will ahve more than 2024.5 delegates BEFORE May 31

Tell me, how is stripping the winner of his win after he has won better than the Republicans?

Seriously, how can I even begin to consider Hillary Clinton the lesser of two evils under those conditions?

[sktmax]

26. i think

the most she can hope for is 50/50/ split, with will do her no good

[dogday]

30. So you won't vote for a Democrat? What the hell are you

doing here then... We promote Democratic Candidates here, not punish them or the party....

[WeDidIt]

34. She would NOT be a Democratic Nominee as far as I'm concerned

if she has nuked the party.

[dogday]

43. I will vote for whoever our nominee is... To do anything less is

to screw your own party.. We need the majority in both houses and the presidency... Why is that so hard to understand?

[WeDidIt]

78. Again, the party will be dead under the nuclear option

there will no longer be a Democratic Party.

[dogday]

104. Right now it is talk, we shall see what Clinton will do and what

will be allowed... Is the nuclear option allowed under the rules and charter?

[WeDidIt]

122. It's a loophole

Getting the Rules and Bylaws Committee to overturn its prior ruling.

It also undermines the DNC request that candidates remove their names from the Michigan ballot.

[Ian_rd]

39. Who do you think has "punished" the party more?

Me? A solitary poster on DU? or Hillary Clinton, who has legitimized every right-wing campaign tactic and talking point by incorporating them into a Democratic Campaign?

[dogday]

42. Any Democrat who does not vote for Democrats punishes the

party cause we need the majority and a president in the WH, it is so simple... Just hold your nose and vote if you have to....

[Ian_rd]

45. So party label is all that matters anymore? Not the candidate or their character or their policies?

I'm not a mindless party voter. I have more considerations than that.

[dogday]

48. Do you want things to get done in Washington or more of the same?

Cause it is going to take party unity to make that happen... It is up to you...

[WeDidIt]

62. Gain, under the nuclaer option, there is no longer a Democratic Party

Nuclear means it has been obliterated.

[Ian_rd]

80. When I sacrifice everything I believe in just to get my party in power ...

I've become nothing more than a reliable mindless cog for the party elite to turn while they ruin my country.

[dogday]

146. I tend to look at it as a strategic strike against Republicans, than

the mindless two step you seem to think it is.. I am doing what is necessary strategically, to effect some change, and not just live with the status quo....

[WeDidIt]

61. The PArty would be dead under the nuclear option

There would no longer be a Democratic Party if Hillary nukes it.

[dogday]

64. I expect the party to follow the rules and there are rules in place

for this primary... Seems to me right now that Obama has it, but the race is still not over and the convention has not happened, so I will wait to see what our party has provided...

[WeDidIt]

83. Obama is set to win this thing on May 20

He will ahve more than the requisite 2024.5 delegates before the hearing on May 31.

He will have won it.

And the Rules and Bylaws Committee is set to strip him of his win.

[dogday]

101. If he does, he deserves the nomination and I don't think

there is much they can do...

[WeDidIt]

105. IF they seat Florida and Michigan

the goal posts move out to 2209 instead of 2024.5. In effect, they will have stripped Obama of the win.

[dogday]

109. Obama is no lightweight, he will fight to the end too.... This race

is being fought by two very strong candidates.. I doubt Obama and company will stand for it, not to mention the voters... We shall see....

[TahitiNut]

32. Born and raised (mostly) in Michigan and currently living (and voting) here ...

... I have repeatedly stated that the Michigan Primary was a Total FUBAR. Humpty Dumpty. Hillary and her DLC cohorts were instrumental in that FUBAR. Granholm is DLC. Stabenow is DLC. These people NEVER used their considerable power to prevent the FUBAR ... they participated in making it WORSE.

When the DLC eats omelet and laments the passing of Humpty Dumpty, I'm even less inclined to support them.

There is NO WAY to unring the FUBAR bell. NONE. The DLC and Democratic Party infighting, with the cooperation of the GOP, surrendered up to 5% of the Michigan vote in the General Election. Michigan voted for McCain in 2000. The Michigan GOP voted for Romney in 2008. If Romney is McCain's running mate, kiss Michigan GOODBYE.

The Democrats didn't spend one thin dime campaigning in the Michigan economy ... the most depressed in the nation.

The Democrats didn't face the Michigan voters.

Hillary's ploy is obscenely hypocritical.

[Romulox]

57. You know about Obama's DLC chief economic advisor, right???

Obama is every bit as DLC as Hillary w/r/t economic policy, mostly because Barack Obama's chief economic advisor is also head economist for the DLC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austan_Goolsbee

[TahitiNut]

65. So fucking WHAT? I voted for Kucinich.

Just WHAT the Hell motivates some to defend a candidate by saying the other one is ALMOST as bad?? What kind of insane fucking logic is that???

Sheesh! :eyes:

[Romulox]

71. I didn't say "almost". I say "equal". Barack Obama is EQUALLY as bad for Michigan

as Hillary Clinton or John McCain, because they all have the same economic philosophy and policies.

[WA98070]

38. They will be seated by Obama once they no longer matter. The supers will decide with or without ...

Michigan or Florida.

The supers are aware of the facts and are making their decisions in light of Florida and Michigan.

Obama will not want any state to feel left out---and Dean was the first to push for a fifty state strategy.

When he does, will you vote in November?

[JKaiser]

46. I won't vote if Bo wins..

[Barack_America]

68. Just 'cause? Or because he's black? Because he's not a woman?

Because he beat your candidate according to the agreed upon rules?

Why exactly? I'm curious.

[IDemo]

55. I won't stay home. I'll write in Kucinich and vote on the down-ticket races

I don't really think there is any obliterizing she can do at this stage to pull off the nomination, though.

[Barack_America]

66. Same here. I'll write in "Democratic Party", considering it won't be represented...

And I'll channel my volunteer and financial efforts into the downticket races.

I won't sacrifice my right to vote on principle, but I'll try make up my Presidential non-vote in other ways!

[Maddy McCall]

70. You might as well stay home, or vote Green.

Writing in a candidate is stupid.

[Maddy McCall]

69. Anyone who refuses to vote for the Dem nominee is worse than a Republican.

YOu're like little babies throwing a tantrum, because you didn't get your way.

Fuck the Supreme Court, fuck a Dem majority in the House and Senate...it's your tender little feelings that matter most.

Anyone who refuses to vote for the Dem nominee in the fall, whether it's Obama or Clinton, is lower than low and ought to be ostracized from DU--and the Democratic party.

[WeDidIt]

73. I won't be a part of any political party

that is willing to strip the nomination from teh person who won and give it to the person who lost.

IF that's how Hillary wins, she most certainly won't be the lesser of the two evils.

[spoony]

92. Then you might want to change your user name

[WeDidIt]

108. IF she can keep Obama from reaching 2024.5

and becomes the nominee, she has my vote.

IF she wins because she seated Michigan after the DNC made a direct request of the candidates to remove their names from the Michigan ballot (a request Obama complied with), then there is no longer a Democratic Party as far as I'm concerned.

[DevonRex]

72. I'm with you all the way. nt

[endarkenment]

74. That would appear to be a line that should not be crossed.

I think I would be forced to write in obama at that point.

[oasis]

76. Focus on SCOTUS. (eom)

[MirrorAshes]

125. I posted below that I could not vote for her...

if ANYTHING could persuade me to bite my lip and do it, this is certainly it.

But I don't even have the confidence that she'll appoint appropriate judges anymore. I don't know who Hillary Clinton is. She's not the democrat I thought she was, thats for certain.

[oasis]

139. You definitely know what kind of judges McCain will install. Possibly three. (eom)

[Arkansas Granny]

79. I don't understand people who would withhold their vote if their chosen candidate

doesn't get the nomination and therefore aid a McCain victory. Don't you realize what a disaster another Republican President would be for our country?

[WA98070]

81. I hope it is just posturing for the supes, otherwise they were probably voting ....

against one candidate not for the other and were Repub crossovers.

[Arkansas Granny]

98. You could be right about that. I certainly hope so.

[WeDidIt]

84. IF Hillary can convince enough Super Delegates to go her way

in order to achieve the 2024.5 threshold, she has my vote.

If she nukes, she is the most evil candidate on my ballot.

[LVjinx]

86. I'll raise you one - I'll LEAVE the Democratic party if both FL and MI aren't seated

We fought like hell in 2000 to get FL recounted, until the Supreme Court ruled that was "changing the rules." Now I see the same pathetic argument being used by Democrats, and I will not tolerate it. This party is morphing into something I can't support right in front of my eyes. Obama supporters have co-opted George Bush's 2000 argument to steal the election from Al Gore, and aren't even batting an eye in the process.

[WeDidIt]

87. So florida and Michigan are more important than the other 48 states

that followed the rules.

Fuck Florida and Michigan.

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WeDidIt]

110. They made their bed when they kenw the consequences

I have no sympathy for them. They knew if they moved the primary up they'd have no delegates and they chose to do it any way.

too bad, so sad. They made their bed. They can sleep in it now.

[spoony]

118. Who is this "they" everyone keeps talking about?

Eh? Voters didn't do shit to deserve being thrown in the bin. You want to punish the leaders, go for it. But don't piss on a state full of Dem voters!

[WeDidIt]

123. YES, THE VOTERS DID IT TO THEMSELVES!

When they determined who the leaders were that decided they could break the rules, the vvoters made their beds.

[spoony]

126. Yeah 'cause we knew they'd do this!

Should everyone who voted for Spitzer be prosecuted for soliciting prostitution?

Btw, what about people who didn't vote for them? Fuck them too, eh? I just love the idea of apologists for vote suppression on DU, of all the the places.

[WeDidIt]

131. That's what happens in a representative democracy

which is what we are in.

Elections have consequences

As for people who did not vote for those who did not vote for the people who did this to them, elections ahve consequences. Work to remove the people who did this to you.

George W. Bush is paritally MY FAULT, not because I voted for him (I didn't), but because I was not active enough to stop him from being elected.

[spoony]

134. Wait, what? In a democracy...other people can take your vote away?

Yeah THAT is perfectly logical.

You can say Bush is partially your fault--I don't buy that shit, but for the sake of argument--but do you then believe that it is okay that your rights (habeas corpus, etc) can be--have been--taken away by him? Since, after all, there "are consequences"? Should these rights be withheld from you so long as he's in office?

[WeDidIt]

140. Yes, in a Democracy, those you vote for have the power

to take away your voice in a primary.

Absolutely.

Your vote is only constitutionally guaranteed in a general election.

[Coexist]

95. they will be seated after Hillary steps aside- if she pulls the nuclear shit

then you won't be the only one on the way out.

I'll join you and the other tens of millions of angry ex-Democrats.

[leftynyc]

111. So let McCain be pres - that'll teach her (n/t)

[MirrorAshes]

114. I refuse to vote for that wretched woman.

This only underscores exactly why.

We don't need another "cheat to win" president.

[JuniperLea]

128. Drinking poison to kill another is stupid... eom

[Ian_rd]

145. I refuse to drink Hillary's poison in place of McCain's. I don't care if it has a sweeter taste. eom

[JuniperLea]

148. We don't cotton to McCain voters around here

I think you belong on that other message board.

[Ian_rd]

150. Poor reading comprehension. That could explain a great deal.

Best of luck to you and me when Hillary invades Iran.

[JuniperLea]

155. As a professional reader and writer...

Methinks you err.

[Ian_rd]

156. For Fox?

[JuniperLea]

157. Insults are very telling...

They equal: that's all you have.

[Ian_rd]

158. So are misrepresentations of my statements. That is, "very telling."

I'll leave you now to misrepresent in your professional capacity. I hope you aren't deceiving too many people during your 8 to 5.

[Tyler Durden]

132. As the state you come from is red to the bone, likely you won't be missed.

Michigan is needed desperately, and this has nothing to do with Clinton. If Team Obama had supported the redo instead of torpedoing it at the last second, we wouldn't be having this discussion. In fact, if, as Obama Supporters believe, he would have won a redo, likely Clinton would have conceded at this point.

You know who screwed the pooch here? Campaign Obama.

[mmonk]

137. I stand with you on the presidential issue. My conscience currently

will not permit it. But I'll work my tail off and vote for the downticket candidates.

[Dbdmjs1022]

142. I'll sit out, or write in Obama. So will all of my Dem friends Cheaters don't deserve to be rewarded

[noonwitch]

143. I guess you will be happy with President McCain picking the next supreme court justice

Bush and Reagan's picks have done away with affirmative action, and next on the block to be revisted are Brown v Board of Education, Miranda v Arizona and Roe v Wade.

I'm sure one more conservative vote won't change that, so stay at home in November and nurse your wounded pride.

[Ian_rd]

144. With all of Hillary's triangulation, what makes you think she won't choose judges based on her ...

desire to appease the Right?

[nvme]

154. Clinton only garnered 55% of the vote in MI

Isnt that telling? 45 percent voted against her. That means even though she was the ONLY dem on the ticket, she had at least 40% of the Dems against her nomination. ad that figure to what the repubs are gonna show with and you have Michigan results to the GE. Hillary also made "non campaign appearances in Florida as well as a "thank you for showing non-campaign Rally" We in Florida watched Clinton flout the rules.
Clinton does not have the delegates. Her campaign has created an image that she is leading the Primary race based on mythical figures. this land is the same place where each of us "drink hot cocoa and can pull wing-ed unincorns from our collective asses."