I'll say it, so you don't have to: fuck people for whom $30/mo. matters

[lwcon]

Sorry to say it, but there are some people in our country -- Democrats, even -- who like the idea of Big Oil buying average citizens a small breather on gas prices.

Some of these people are so bitter that they cling to their Ramen noodles, when they can afford them.

Naturally, this desperate behavior is upsetting to the Creative Class and others "who never had a reason to vote before" (because, really, things like economic justice have never been important in the past, not like "hope" and electing "The One" are now, that's for sure).

And why buy school lunches when organic arugula with $100/lb. ham is so easily within reach? What do these people think we are, "Chablis drinkers"? Ha ha ha ha. Peasants!

I mean, can you imagine re-establishing the expectation that robber barons should be made to pay their fair share, and passing a little savings down to people who need it? Worst idea you've heard all year, right?

Certainly, dear Democrats, it's not as profound as, say, this notion:

Well, I think there are a whole host of areas where Republicans in some cases may have a better idea.

For a minute there, it seemed like Americans were ready to repudiate the Reagan Revolution, and dahlings, that would be just déclassé! Much better to pretend that Democrats are just as bad as Republicans. Our friends in the Beltway love to say that, and unity means never having to make any waves.

TTFN... and don't take any middle-class tax breaks!

___

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[gateley]

1. Let them eat lunch meat. nt

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

120. things are so bad that even this pandering isn't going to impress them

we don't have health care, and Hillary failed in 8 years, in fact set us back.
our country is in debt to China a communist country.
the war is sucking the national treasury away.
our educational system is being starved.

Our country hasn't been this bad off in decades.

You think even starving people don't recognize that Hillary is offering
more of the same stuff that put us where we are?

[gateley]

142. But according to Harold Ford,

that money would buy people a lot of lunch meat over the summer. Once they realize that, I'm sure they'll fall in line. :eyes:

[truebrit71]

157. Which is yet another reason why that DINO douchebag isn't in office right now...

...

[aquart]

138. At $8 a pound? Sorry. No trust fund. Try a can of tuna.

[gateley]

141. It was Hillary's pal Harold Ford that said the gas tax savings could buy

a lot of lunch meat for families.

[AllentownJake]

2. Ok

$30 a month is an exaggeration. I did the calculation and I drive 100 miles a day.

I save 16.00 over 3 months. I don't drive a Prius but I don't drive an SUV either. Car gets about 28 miles to the gallon.

[lwcon]

21. Arguendo (hey, I can talk "Creative Class," howzabout that!?)...

... the gas-tax holiday saves people a nickel a month.

What result do we get from doing it? We re-establish the idea of populist economics. Hillary had Bill Fucking O'Reilly nodding his head about taking something back from those Big Oil bastards.

At first, when I heard Hillary was talking up a tax-holiday, I thought it was just a pander like a lot of y'all did and do.

But when I saw her go into the belly of the beast and sell the shit out of the idea that Corporate America has got to start feeling the heat, she totally turned me around on the issue. Completely knocking the wind out of sails of McCain's proposal, and preparing us to start moving back toward economic equity.

It's called "leadership."

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[americanstranger]

46. Yeah, that's leadership!

Suggesting an idea brought up by the nominee of the other party, which would do nothing if in the one in a million chance it actually got passed, an idea which even lackeys like Paul Krugman say is a horrible idea and no one in her own party would take her up on her 'with us or against us' posing (now, where have I heard that phrase before?), an idea which will be dropped about 20 seconds after the polls close in Indiana tomorrow night.

Oh, and to get that $30 - you have to buy nearly $600 worth of gas. Sheah, leadership.

- as

[lwcon]

53. Krugman doesn't love the idea, but he doesn't call it "horrible"

He called it "pointless." I disagree, I think it's a clever move that -- even if it doesn't pass -- signals a new game, in which taxing the rich stops being treated as a sin against 'murkan values, something that our fellow citizens have been convinced of since the days of "transformative" Ronald Reagan.


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[Tactical Progressive]

137. Very well said

I too have thought this is a great idea for the very same reason. Everyone talks about the inequality, but as soon as Hillary promotes even one, relatively small thing, that effects the mindset of actually changing it, boy, there is no shortage of people, like Obama for instance, ready to dump on it.

I like it. The way it sounds, the way it plays, and the attitude it represents, both in terms of just doing it but also in who's paying for it. Taxing the wealthiest of the unearned wealthy?!!? It's just not done in polite society!!! The media couldn't be more disdainful.

And the irony is The Pretender, Obama, calling it pretense, while trying to act like the populist he's pretending to be.

It's a work of art.

[sudopod]

158. Because there won't be any backlash when it doesn't work

and more bridges collapse. :3

[Mojorabbit]

96. What about the

300,000 jobs it will cost?

[AZ Criminal JD]

22. Complain to Obama. He was the one who came up with $30 a month.

[scheming daemons]

59. No.... he said $30 TOTAL for the summer....

[AZ Criminal JD]

165. I guess you don't listen to the Leader's speeches

Shame on you! Off to the camps! He has said $30 a month several times that I have heard him. Don't dare say he misspoke! He is incapable of that!

[L0oniX]

3. Hillary will never see any compensation from any oil companies for this gas tax...

holiday pandering scheme.

[ClericJohnPreston]

20. 8 miliseconds

for an Obamite to answer with Hillary's name. I'm so glad you're not programmed or anything.....

[L0oniX]

145. Programmed to respond to pro Obama posts much? Hillbot?

[scheming daemons]

4. You're missing the point... THEY'LL NEVER SEE THE $30!

The oil companies will raise their prices in the amount of the gas tax savings, meaning that the consumers will get NONE OF IT.

This is what the oil companies have done EVERY time there has been a "gas tax holiday". Why do you think this time would be different?


Clinton's plan will result in NO SAVINGS TO THE CONSUMER.... but they WILL result in higher profits for oil companies.


(Which, some wonder, may be her plan all along... since the lobbyists love her).

[Guaranteed]

86. Bingo. It's just another way of looting the treasury. nt

[anigbrowl]

5. I'd be more excitied if I had a car. I take the bus.

No extra lunchmeat for me.

[OzarkDem]

6. They'd rather bash Dems than Republicans

shows their political naivete and narcissism.


On edit: perhaps they should have to suffer through several years of recession with double digit interest rates and inflation. Might change their perception of things.

[cliffordu]

7. Uh, that was 30 bucks for all three months, wasn't it?...

So it's a bigger "pantsuit pander bear" scam than it seemed....

[Skittles]

29. what is your obsession with pantsuits?

please stop it

[lwcon]

38. Pantsuits explained

http://www.correntewire.com/clothes_make_the_non_man

[Skittles]

40. it's absolute sexist garbage

the kind of SHIT repukes wax on about :puke:

[MercutioATC]

8. It's roughly $3/week...and that's ONLY if the oil companies don't raise pump prices.

Nobody is suggesting that there aren't people for whom $30 isn't usable.

We're suggesting that they probably won't see that much, if anything...and the loss of highway jobs due to the $10B-$12B deficit this would create would effect them more.

[cliffordu]

10. Well, three bucks a week is a latte twice a month, right?

[MercutioATC]

19. No idea about the latte...but it's a whole eight-tenths of a gallon of gas.

or almost nine-tenths of a Big Mac (if you forgo the fries and drink).

[cliffordu]

26. Well, yeah, but why bother unless you can get the whole thing??

[Andy823]

9. I think it would be great

If big oil paid for a break from high gas prices, but I am know for a fact that is NOT going to happen this year. I am not going to fool myself into believing something that is not true, like that congress would pass a bill that forced big oil to pay windfall taxes that would then go to pay for a tax break on the gas the people of this country. Nor do I believe that even by some miracle such a bill did get passed by congress, that George Bush would not veto such a bill!

I live in the real world, and I don't need politicians lying to me about things they can NOT make happen! Does anyone here on this board really believe that there will be a "gas tax holiday", paid for by a bill the "taxes" the profits of big oil this year? Does anyone here really believe that congress would pass either bill? And last but not least, does anyone here really believe that Bush would NOT veto such a bill that taxed his buddies in big oil companies?

[CTLawGuy]

11. they would never see even that $30

you'd have to assume that oil cos. would lower prices in response to the holiday, which I doubt highly. In fact prices may go up with increased demand.

[Crunchy Frog]

88. Hey, it doesn't matter if they can't actually see it...

as long as the corporate media is able to persuade them to believe they're seeing it. The corporate media's very good at that sort of thing.

[Imagevision]

12. How quaint! lower taxes at the pumps just in time for the election

[Brundle_Fly]

104. and have no plan

or conceivable way to actually do it....



or desire.

[slick8790]

13. It's just unsound policy.

What stops oil companies from just raising their price up to barely less than what it was? So instead of the money going towards infrastructure, it goes in Exxon's bank account.

I don't disagree with you that $30 could make a difference for some people. But the majority of people it won't. For the vast majority of Americans, they would be better served by not getting that $30 and having it go towards repairing our crumbling infrastructure.

[The Traveler]

14. It won't work

"Market forces" (wink, wink, nudge nudge) will chew up that $0.18/gal price break in a couple of weeks. Those bucks go straight to the petro business, which will be taxed at a higher rate ... presuming that part of the idea gets signed by the President of the oil companies, by the oil companies and for the oil companies. Even if it does, they come out of the deal with more bucks in the long run ... and this President is not going to allow congress to make them pay for that tax holiday, anyway. The short fall in revenues for road maintenance will increase the pressure to privatize public roads (turn 'em into toll rolls run by businesses). Etc. The common man gets screwed. The oil companies get more bucks. The treasury is further leeched. Public infrastructure is allowed to rot. Business as normal for the Bushista regime.

Really, I just gotta believe Hillary understands every bit of that. Stupid she ain't ... one of the sharpest minds and best informed policy wonks in the Democratic Party over the past 50 years.

[graycem]

15. It's not our fault

that people are gullible enough to believe A) that it'd actually ever pass with 2 oil men sitting in the WH, and B)that despite what 200 economists say, it's a really grand idea, and screw the bridges and construction jobs, and the other scary facts like they would just pass it on to the consumer anyway.

There comes a time in your life when you should stop believing everything a politician tells you, yet you mock us for "hope" and "change" when he's the only one with the CAJONES to tell the truth. What exactly does that say about you?

[murray hill farm]

16. This gas holiday farce....

seems to me to be such a huge insult to anyones intelligence. What is scary is that someone actually would not see it as an insult..which really is the scariest part of all. It is amazingly condescending. It is like she thinks we are all intellectual worms and she can direct us to vote by promising us what she cannot deliver anyway...and blatantly expects us to say the equivalent of "duh....yep that sounds good". Freaky scary.

[kwenu]

27. She knows full well she couldn't deliver this even if it made a lick of sense.

In other words, she's pandering and trying to BS for a quick sound bite. She now does that on a daily basis. What a loser!

[lyonn]

49. G.W. has proved that many Americans are intellectual worms

She decided that is how you win elections and it still seems to be working.

[shimmergal]

108. No, most of us know it wouldn't

get passed with Bush & Cheney still in power. But remember, she just grabbed McCain's suggestion and gave it a twist which says, "Sock it to the oil companies." And the fact that nobody thinks it can work that way just shows how narrow our political vision has become. Ideally, the threat of an even larger excess profits tax would keep the oil companies' price hikes in line. If that didn't work out, how about nationalization as another option? Impossible in this climate, yes, but it's no more than they deserve. . .

[grantcart]

17. repeal the law on supply and demand - which controls price and give me a call

this is transferring the money from the treasury to the oil company.


THE PRICE OF OIL IS NOT BASED ON COSTS. NOT THE COST OF TRANSPORTATION OR THE COST OF THE TAXES.



What she is proposing will simply increase the profit margin of the oil companies.



No economist, including hers, are for it for that reason.

[DerekJ]

18. It's $30 for THREE MONTHS.

[mod mom]

43. YES, the entire summer!

[sudopod]

23. So i herd u liek demagoguery

[chill_wind]

24. Hillary wants to buy your vote for-- less than thirty bucks

even though she knows this snake oil isn't going to happen, anyway. Knowingly preying on false hopes and false scenarios--now THAT's declasse'.

[Danger Mouse]

25. Heh...the oil company fat cats won't let that happen...

[Neshanic]

28. The responses are proof of why we lose elections. Batter up!

[scheming daemons]

33. If we lose elections because we tell the public the truth, then the American people get the govt

they deserve.

[Two Americas]

106. that is irresponsible and selfish

Politics is not about what YOU want, it is about what is best for all of the people, whether or not they measure up to the lofty standards of some "progressive" with an inflated self image, and a mean-sported intolerance of other human beings. I find it truly abhorrent - this self-righteous determination to shout "the truth" - according to a spoiled and self-absorbed and very small segment of the population - into the faces of the people, and then just write off our failures by blaming the people.

I am looking forward to the day when the "progressives" get what they deserve for their complete abrogation of their responsibilities, their arrogant contempt for the people, and their cowardice and self-centeredness.

[dchill]

149. Man, that is some screwed-up screed...

posted by someone who is obviously in the wrong place.

[Two Americas]

153. that's it?

Care to say anything more than just making snide insinuations? There are plenty of us here who are strong leftists and have been loyal Democrats for decades. Are you saying we are not welcome? Are you saying that the small faction within the party, the modern "progressives" - mostly much more conservative than I am on issues of power and economics - are the only true Democrats?

[dchill]

154. You said it:

"Politics is not about what YOU want, it is about what is best for all of the people..."

It just seems to me that someone who believes that would be able to see through such a specious pander, nothing but a cheap setup to blame your opponent for its failure. If you believe your own words, then Obama is your candidate. I - M - O.

[Two Americas]

155. I don't understand

Not following you here. What "specious pander" do you mean, and how do you know I don't see through it, what difference would it make if I did, and what does that have to do with Obama?

[dchill]

159. I thought we were discussing the OP.

[Two Americas]

160. no

I was responding to scheming daemons.

[dchill]

161. Dare I say scheming daemons is right?

:shrug:

[Two Americas]

164. sure, dare away

What is it that you think scheming daemons is right about?

I think that running a campaign to prove that the public is stupid and wrong is bad politics.

I think that anyone who says "they" deserve what they get is not very much at risk and is estranged from the people. "They" is "we" in my view - aren't we all going to get the same thing? Or do some see themselves as above all this and immune to it? Politics that is estranged from the people is not politics at all. Saying that the American people deserve what they get is mean-spirited and contrary to all traditional principles and ideals of the party.

We fail when we fight a culture war battle against the people. We succeed when we fight a political battle on behalf of the people.

[lwcon]

42. Yup

And I could die of old age waiting for someone to respond to the substance of this one:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5832348&mesg_id=5832626

[Johnny__Motown]

30. Bad at math I see... 28 bucks in 90 days, assuming the price does not go up regardless of the

removal of the tax....


All that Supply and Demand Elitist shit

[AZBlue]

31. You'll never see a dime of that $30. Actually, your gas prices will just go up.

So if you'd like to pay MORE, go ahead, support the idea.

[meow mix]

61. ding ding ding

winner

[Zodiak]

32. You are over-estimating the projected savings by 300%

That is, if by some miracle the oil companies won't just raise the price to compensate. After all, according to Hillary's plan, they will be paying for it.

Show me one economist who agrees that people would see the savings and then we will entertain the idea (against the hundred+ who say otherwise).

[onenote]

34. actually, its probably less than 30 cents PER DAY

The average person drives less than 12,000 year. But we'll call it 12,000/year or 1,000 miles a month or 250 miles a week. Average MPG is hard to assess, but a conservative approach would be 22.5 MPG (its probably higher). So someone driving 250 miles in a week @ 22.5 MPG needs 11.1 gallons of gas/week. The fuel tax is $0.184/gallon, so the average person would save (assuming that the price of gas actually drops to reflect the tax "savings") $2.04/week or $0.29 per day.

Since the tax relief only is supposed to last through the summer, the total savings will be, on average, around $10/month.

[hfojvt]

35. that is just such a load of sh*t

"Oh, boo hoo hoo, what about the poor? Obama doesn't care about the poor." Just showing that she doesn't know diddly about the real poor. I happen to make 106% of the poverty line. I know something about poor people. Really poor people don't buy gas. They cannot afford cars. I see them walking and riding bikes and in bigger cities they ride the bus.

But, hey, it's cool to pander to voters AND use the poor as a political football. It's not like Republicans or George W. Bush would ever do that.

"Yes, I'm worried about the deficit. I'm worried about the deficit, but I'm more worried about the fellow looking for work. I'm worried about the deficit, but I'm more worried about the single mom who's worried about putting food on the table for her children, so she could find work. And that's where the focus of this administration is going to be." May 12, 2003

[global1]

36. It's $30.00 For The Whole Summer - Not $30 Per Month Or Week Like Some HRC Pundits Are.......

trying to get us to believe. The gas station owners are said to just raise the price to compensate for the tax relief. Net result the prices will stay the same and probably go higher when summer is over.

How hard is this to grasp. And to boot - the tax money will not be available to go to road repair - so you'll have to deal with the potholes all summer. Blow a tire and you just spent your $30 summer tax holiday saving. But wait - the price of tires went up because oil is used when making the tire.

Oh and wait again - if you were a road builder - you'll probably be laid off or lose your job - because the tax money won't be there to pay your wage. So you won't be able to put food on your table that is costing more because it needs to be transported to the stores and oil is used in the packaging products.

But that's ok - because at least you'll have your house - if it isn't foreclosed on.

Then I guess you'll have to live in a Clinton Camp under an overpass near you in your refrigerator box. Oh wait - not as much demand for refrigerators now - so not many boxes available.

Looks like you'll have to rough it and sleep under the stars. Like Hillary did when her grandpa was teaching her to shoot.

[Imagevision]

37. I'll say it, so you don't have to: fuck people for whom $30/mo. matters

Camp Hillary figure that gas tax silliness can gain some votes end of story

[K8-EEE]

39. Silly -- they'll just charge it to us (or our kids, our grandkids) in the end

And have crumbling infrastructure to boot.

Sick of having all these BushCo "give-aways" being defended because people are broke. Just because we all could use an extra $30 doesn't mean every $30 scheme is a good idea.

[Bonobo]

41. It's $30 for 3 months!

[NC_Nurse]

44. Most of the folks who really need money DON'T have cars. They won't save

ANYTHING. If you don't buy gas, you don't need a gas tax holiday. Duh.

[IrishBloodEngHeart]

45. If they actually got the $30, you may have a point

but we know they won't, and we know bush won't sign it anyway, so its a totally stupid idea.

[mmonk]

47. Won't happen. It will take away infrastructure money at a time

it is running a deficit. It will only possibly save $30 over three months. No way will anything pass while this president is in office that has big oil pay for anything. I'll take the $1,000.00 tax cut instead.

[lwcon]

48. Alright, geniuses

You tell me that Obama's estimate of the savings is $30 for the summer. Fine. He's such an expert on calculating how to win a nomination by bulking up on red-state caucuses, I'm inclined to believe him.

But what about this argument:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5832348&mesg_id=5832838

The crickets are deafening...


___

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[scheming daemons]

54. Yes... let's enact BAD POLICY to prove how populist we are....

[scheming daemons]

57. Hillary insulted your intelligence, and you call that "leadership". Who's the "cult" again?

[femrap]

81. Did you read the article,

"Obama's Money Cartel" at Counterpunch?

http://www.counterpunch.org/

Article by Pamela Martens....Obama has found his long lost daddy....The Corporation.

[last1standing]

50. Your queen is a liar and you seem to have followed suit.

Not only is your post full of lies it is insulting and rude, just like that lying, pandering hatemonger you worship.

How does it feel to know that you are nothing more than an extention of a hatemonger?

Do you wake up proud of lying to others? Do you enjoy supporting someone you know has sold out to the corporations?

Don't bother answering. It'll just be more insults and smears without any facts. Just like your queen would do.

[lwcon]

63. You'd be surprised

Mirrors aren't really all that expensive.

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[last1standing]

64. You'd be surprised, neither is an education. I suggest you get one.

n/t

[lwcon]

118. Just hanging out here is an education

I've never seen mass hysteria close up before. It's quite astounding!

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[fortyfeetunder]

51. I see it this way - 30.00 savings is voodoo economics.

Drop the gas tax but Big Oil will find a way to get it all back, they may see this as a potential profit to charge that differential.

Not to mention what other posters have said about losing road improvement funds and the jobs that go along with it. Tell that to the construction worker who may lose a job if road construction money is curtailed!!!

[quakerboy]

52. $30 matters to me

When you count my student loan payments, I live significantly below the poverty line. $30 is the difference between whether I eat rice for dinner, or whether I get to step up and live the high life with rice and chicken. And I say Fuck the "gas tax holiday". Every damn one of us knows. Not thinks, KNOWS! That the second they passed that tax break, the price of gas would go on a very rapid 20 cent rise. Instead of paying the government, I would lose my $30 to the oil company's. And then to add injury to insult when the bridges start falling down, my commute across the rivers going to get a lot longer and cost me even more.

So you know what? Fuck YOU for trying to treat me like I am that dumb. You have inspired me. I will be cutting my monthly food budget in half this month so that I can donate $50 to Obama. I wasn't going to, but you pissed me off.

[scheming daemons]

55. GOOD FOR YOU

Hillary is insulting the intelligence of the American voter.


Let's see if they prove her right in doing so.

[lwcon]

56. Thinking?

C'mon, now. Hoping is all you need!

Sorry about you doing without all that food, but it's a good idea. Obama had to spend 3x what Hillary did in PA to get his ass kicked there, so he needs every penny. And the price of organic arugula is just going through the roof!

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[scheming daemons]

62. Spent 3x as much to cut a 26-point lead to a 9-point win.... MISSION ACCOMPLISHED

....

[quakerboy]

70. Well done. Pretend to stand up for a set of people

then insult the first one you run into. Shows your true heart.

[Tatiana]

77. It makes you wonder which interests these supporters truly represent. n/t

[Phillycat]

163. I'm a Hillary supporter, but this gas tax is stupid and this post is brilliant.

Heh. :thumbsup: :D

[MrSlayer]

58. I'm sorry but if $10 a month is going to make that big a difference you are in real trouble.

10 bucks won't even get you a pizza delivered. How is this any kind of relief? Even if you were to get it, which you won't, it's a mere pittance and an insult. You have got to be kidding.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tatiana]

65. The oil companies raise their prices EVERYTIME. No savings will be realized. n/t

[lwcon]

66. Absolutely...

Except for this:

http://www.correntewire.com/who_you_gonna_believe_econ_101_or_your_lyin_eyes

[Tatiana]

69. Ahem. I live in Illinois. Three times we have tried this.

Three times it has failed. Gas prices drop about 20 cents one day and they go back up to pre-tax holiday prices (or HIGHER, like the very last time we tried this).

Indiana knows too.

We're not stupid. We bought gas during the so-called gas tax holiday periods. We remember what we paid for it.

[AtomicKitten]

67. It's a bad idea all around but, hey, don't let the top 200 economists sway you.

Also:

1) She can't deliver it. Congress already told her it was bullshit, and Junior isn't going sign ANYTHING regarding windfall taxes which, by the way, she herself voted against the last four times it came up for a vote.

2) She has spent this mythical windfall tax twice; she already spent it in her own plan for alternative energy.

The truth is it would take money out of the already woefully underfunded Highway Fund, you know, the money used to fix the already crumbling roads and infrastructure PLUS it will cause the loss of an estimated 300,000 jobs (conservative estimate by the, well, you know elitist economists).

3) She can't stop Big Oil from pocketing the small change and raising prices on consumers to make up the difference.

4) She has called Obama and just about every economist "elitists" for telling the truth about this. Hmmmmm. She's disregarding sound advice. Who does that sound like?

5) This proposal has been deemed the worst policy position of the campaign and she has erroneously tied her wagon to it and is defending it.

Hillary is preying on stupid people. I never thought someone who is allegedly a Democrat would stoop as low as a Republican and purposely deceive people fishing for votes.

That's pandering any way you slice it.

[Gore1FL]

68. Enough holidays like that

and they will have enough money to buy the new tires and suspensions necessary to make up for the poor road conditions left by the lack of infrastructure funding.

[lwcon]

72. Are you saying that because you expect your guy will lose against McCain?

Because Hillary's plan pays those the taxes. Or rather, Big Oil pays those taxes.

But hope is a good plan, too!

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[Gore1FL]

75. Only by double spending a non existent income.

the entirety of the windfall was to go to alternative energy. Now the entirety is to go towards infrastructure.

So the entirety of a tax that will never exist will go 100% for two things....

No wonder her campaign is always broke.

[lwcon]

82. Are you sure you have today's talking points?

This is an even-numbered day, so you're supposed to talk about Hillary's Gigantor Man-Eating Machine, not her underdog finances.

Axlerod is counting on you, man!

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[Gore1FL]

85. I don;t need talking points

I follow the news from multiple sources and can see the obvious.

Explain to me how 100% of the funds of a non-exsiatntax can go to highway funding, while the other 100% goes to alternative energy.

Changing the argument with uninsightful deflection is not a rationale debate skill.

[The_Casual_Observer]

71. & Obama was left with nothing to say except he'll study the problem

later on. He's got nothing.

[lwcon]

74. How can you say he's got nothing?

He can always trump up more charges of racism to tear the party apart -- and then blame Hillary for it.

You think that's nothing?

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[The_Casual_Observer]

80. he offered absolutely nothing. At least Hillary is willing to stick it

up big oil's ass for a change. All obama can do is say nothing except that energy is a problem - a problem he can do nothing about. The genius bunch around here is happy to buy big oil's argument that it won't matter. Fuck that, they don't want any talk about windfall profit taxes, neither do any of those entrenched bastards.
The obama position is a whiff of what things would be like with him in charge, a lot of nothing, no change, nothing but studies that lead to the conclusion that the problems are too hard to solve.

[lwcon]

84. Again, dude, you're selling Obama short

How can you say a supporter of nuclear power plants and Dick Cheney's energy plan is doing nothing? What more do you want?

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[The_Casual_Observer]

89. His first chance to do something "progressive" - kick some oil ass

& he sits it out. He's shit.

[TheDonkey]

73. I can buy 6 sacks of lunchmeat for that much money! YAAAY!

[lwcon]

78. That's the spirit!

"Lunchmeat" is the province of poor people. Poor people aren't creative enough to know how awesomely awesome hope is. They bitterly cling to their lunchmeat. Dumb fucks.


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[femrap]

83. And possibly choke on

it....remember to chew. And whatever you do....don't try to walk and eat at the same time.

[Roxy66]

76. $30.00 would be more than what I have right now...but I can't be bought for $30

[Goblinmonger]

79. Not to mention

that the tax freeze would take away even more money from the national infrastructure which has gone to shit as it is. Good plan, that.

[VolcanoJen]

87. What about the fact that IT'S NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN

Why is everyone living in FantasyLand and Space Mountain at the same time on this thing???

Summer is TWENTY-ONE DAYS AWAY. Where's the legislation? When will it reach committee? When will the House push it through? Will there be Senate Procedural Shenanigans (short answer: yes.)? When will it reach the desk of The Oil Prince? Will he sign it, or veto it? Will he sign it, and then add a signing statement saying "This bill rocks out with it's cock out, but I'm scratching that part where we pay for it with the windfall oil profit thing"?

I mean, seriously, are we really wasting bandwidth on a "serious policy discussion" about a Hail-Pander that's never going to reach fruition? Really?

[lwcon]

90. So, rallying support for a scheme --

even if it doesn't pass -- that brings back Robin Hood thinking about the robber barons offends your sensibilities?

Let me guess, Hillary's encouraging that kind of thinking because she's a Republican. No, because she's a racist. No, because she's trying to destroy the party. Wait, all of the above, and she wears yucky pantsuits. Now I get it. Some of us are slow learners, so thank you for your patience.

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[VolcanoJen]

93. No, she's treating me like I'm a wholesale idiot.

Forget the "she's a Republican, she's a racist, she's trying to destroy the party, ooooooh look over here, shiny" horseshit.

Where's the legislation? It's a serious policy question. Do you have an answer to that real-world query? I live a stone's-throw from Indiana, and she's promising those voters this will be their reality this summer.

What's your path to keeping that promise to Indiana voters?

[lwcon]

97. What's Obama's path to his promised "unity" with the GOP?

As she is with Universal Healthcare (which Obama pissed on with his derisive reference to "socialized medicine" in "Audacity"), she's dragging the Overton Window back where it belongs, by espousing populist legislation.

Obama is selling us short by pretending that Democrats and Republicans are engaged in a bickering "foodfight," rather than a fight between the VRWC and the party of empathetic, progressive values.

Take stock some time of how many times Obama has pissed on liberals, 60s and 90s activists, working Democrats, and now even his friend and mentor whose coattails he's ridden from the South Side to the Beltway. What path is he taking us on? One of delusional, vapid rhetoric and a "movement" of one.


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[VolcanoJen]

99. Hey, you started a thread about the Gas Tax Holiday, and now you can't defend it.

Change the subject all you want. You've been pwn3d. Hillary's lying to the voters of Indiana and North Carolina, making promises she has no intention of keeping, just for short-term political gain and some cheapo media headlines. She's the one treating voters like they are idiots, and that seems to be just fine with you.

Just like Hillary. Shameless.

[lwcon]

101. My apologies for harkening back to the OP

"I mean, can you imagine re-establishing the expectation that robber barons should be made to pay their fair share, and passing a little savings down to people who need it?"

My bad. Carry on hating!

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[VolcanoJen]

103. Well, it is your OP.

Yes, I can imagine re-establishing the expectation that robber barrons should pay their own fair share, lwcon.

But Hillary is promising the voters of Indiana and North Carolina that she'll make this happen this summer, i.e., in TWENTY DAYS.

For all your claims of Hillary being "ready on day one," why are you stalling on the details of her promises to those voters? Forget being ready on Day One. Is she ready in Twenty Days to make those voters feel great about voting for her?

I thought y'all were supposed to be so wonky and good on policy, and stuff. Why can't you explain to the voters of Indiana and North Carolina how she's going to push this through Congress in the next twenty days?

It's a serious question.

[lwcon]

112. Is she promising that she can unilaterally pass legislation?

I've missed that if she has. Unless you can point me to evidence that she's doing that, I'm assuming that she's trying to lead opinion in a constructive direction. Y'know, inspiring people.

And I'm also serious: please explain how Obama can deliver on his #1 campaign promise, to bring unity between Republicans and Democrats. For bonus points, please explain to me his oft-repeated theory about how our problems are because of bickering partisanship between both sides. Unless you're getting a special CSPAN that I'm not, the Democrats aren't doing anywhere near enough bickering, and the GOP is demagoguing and filibustering everything in sight.

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[dchill]

147. Hillary's encouraging that kind of thinking because she's a...

liar.

[cottonseed]

91. The won't see a penny!

Everyone knows that. And, with interest, we'll all be paying it back about 3 times over.

[LeftyMom]

92. Sorry, I'm broke, not stupid.

Could I use a few extra bucks a month? Sure. Would I rather see that money go to fixing our roads up so they stop tearing the fuck out of my car? Absolutely. Maybe it's because I find myself on the eight decade old Bay Bridge (sorry about the uncreative name, the Oakland-SF one) on a fairly regular basis, but money that goes to keeping it up and building a less congested, more earthquake safe span seems like a good investment to me.

Anyhow, a gas tax holiday benefits most the people who spend the most on gas. Which means that the people who benefit most are precisely the people who have bought big, inefficient vehicles, are driving all over the damned place, or both. The last thing we need to do is financially reward the people who do the most to worsen the problem, and provide no substantial benefit to people who are keeping prices down by conserving Since policy drives behavior it's vital that policy promote further conservation. I'd rather see a transit fare holiday than a gas tax one, because that would reduce demand for gas instead of increase it.

[Usrename]

94. If she gave us all a pony we wouldn't need a gas-tax holiday.

We could all ride ponies.

[lwcon]

100. Damn, you've got me there

I was hoping no one would remember that we're all getting ponies.

Curse you, Obama, and your magical unity ponies!

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[ecstatic]

95. you still don't get it: they will never see the $30 savings!

Georgia and Illinois have already tried this--it doesn't work! Retailers just raise their prices and then when the gas tax is reinstated, prices are higher.

[lwcon]

98. Worked in Illinois

http://www.correntewire.com/who_you_gonna_believe_econ_101_or_your_lyin_eyes

And besides, say it doesn't work at all. It rallies popular sentiment to shift the economic burden onto the robber barons. How is that a bad thing? For four decades, our fellow Americans have been duped into thinking all taxes -- even taxes on the most advantaged -- are bad. When she gets even Bill O'Reilly ready to rip a piece out of Big Oil's hide, she's moving public opinion back where it belongs.


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[Usrename]

102. It did not work in Illinois.

The state gave back $0.10 per gallon to save the public $0.06 per gallon, so the gasoline companies made an extra $0.04 per gallon.

The oil companies made more money at the expense of the public. How is that a GOOD thing?

It is exactly the same as Bush borrowing 5 trillion dollars in order to give us back 3 trillion in tax cuts. Get it?

[Terre]

110. You are correct

Obama himself stated, on MTP Sunday, that his vote in Illinois for the gas tax break then was a mistake, and he's learned from it.

[lwcon]

115. Obama stated it, so it must be true

Move along from the link folks, no story here. Just move along.

http://www.correntewire.com/who_you_gonna_believe_econ_101_or_your_lyin_eyes


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[Usrename]

129. I guess you are just arithmetically challenged.

Your own source argues that this study showed that the oil company profits were increased by the tax holiday.

Exactly how does that help the public? Can you explain that please?

I know you are smart enough to type on a computer, so you have to be smart enough to understand the basic question.

How does increasing the oil company profits at the expense of the public help the public? Get It? Understand?

[Quixote1818]

105. Hillary's plan will just increase consumption and raise gas prices

costing us more in the long run. What an idiot idea.

[Terran]

107. So you all

are just going along with Hilary on this "The experts don't know what they're talking about" thing, eh?

Way to go, morons.

[lwcon]

114. Hey, you wrecked your best talking point

Remember when Barack was against the war (i.e., pre-Senate)?

He was right, and all the experts were wrong. Groupthink is a funny thing, isn't it? So often wrong....

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[EFerrari]

117. The experts WEREN'T all wrong. Blix, Ritter were right on.

Cherry-picking is a funny thing, as you just demonstrated.

[lwcon]

119. Glad you mentioned Blix

Hans sez:

Without a military buildup by the U.S. in the summer of 2002, Iraq would probably have not accepted a resumption of inspections....

I did not see that increasing military pressure and readiness for armed action necessarily excluded a desire for a peaceful solution.

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[EFerrari]

121. And? I don't see Blix asserting WMD here, do you?

[Terran]

140. wrong

Your so-called "experts" were nothing more than the war mongers in the Bush admin. The real experts, and not to mention *millions* of ordinary people, warned against Iraq. Bush's *daddy* warned against Iraq.

[Raine]

109. It doesn't matter because

IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN...NO ONE IS GOING TO BE GETTING 30 DOLLARS. It's all just talk.

[Duke Newcombe]

111. Are we still having fun "Obama-baiting"?

Feel better now, acting like that which you despise?

Duke

[lwcon]

113. Welcome to DU

Have you noticed the toxic tenor and one-sidedness of this site lately?

Seems to me some of these Hillary haters and unquestioning Barack believers might benefit from a little debate. Sorry to harsh the mellow.

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[Binka]

126. You Didn't Harsh The Mellow.

You just made a bunch of people laugh/cringe at your foolishness. Poor thing. Somehow I think this has happened to you before. Poor thing.

[fujiyama]

116. When it comes to pandering

No one beats Hillary.

[boppers]

122. Here's an idea:

Tax the windfall, and apply the money to actual poor people!

Not the people who are whining about their gasoline bill, but the people who can't even afford to *drive*, let alone license, register, and insure a car.

[kenny blankenship]

123. I'll say it since you seem to be oblivious: DU *IS* the demographic for whom $30 matters

and they're telling you they can't be bought so cheap.

[lwcon]

124. Mostly, DU is telling me that...

... it's falling for bogus smears of the Clintons and Obama's vacuous rhetoric.

I used to donate to this site, and it's become a fucking disgrace.

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[aquart]

139. So Hillary wants to do something NOW and Obama wants to do it LATER.

Years later.

Sure helpful.

[lwcon]

125. Oh, and someone mentioned Krugman upstream

Here's your "new politics" at work:

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/5/5/22126/82231


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[rodeodance]

127. lot ot cold-hearted snobs upstream.

[rch35]

128. Are you retarded?

And I mean that seriously.

That is the most ridiculous argument I have ever seen.

Not only does it accuse people against this gas tax essentially of being a vaguely defined "elitist" (hmm, wonder where that talking point came from?), it also accuses them of not caring of the needs of the power while relying on phony numbers and apparently, the generosity of oil companies to not do what economics and paste example have shown they will do, and raise prices when the increased demand hits, thereby generating larger revenue faster, while costing hundreds of thousands of US jobs.

[eridani]

130. Right. And when the tax was temporarily reversed, Big Oil would never ever--

--think of raising their prices to compensate? Sounds sort of like those horseshit school vouchers that are supposed to offer parents of poor kids school "choice." And when the school finds out that the voucher is for $3000, guess by what amount the tuition just got raised? Or like when I was a public aid caseworker 40 years ago. The state would periodically raise the rent subsidy. Would you care to guess what happened to the rents the day the subsidy increase was allowed?

[davidpdx]

131. To sum up the OP

If you don't agree with me your a smuck, you are an elitist (hence the Chablis drinker insult) and worst off you are a Republican.

Welcome to my ignore list.

[cali]

132. flamebait and shameless flamebait

masquerading as righteousness. Pretty damn nauseating.

[McCamy Taylor]

133. Obama should have just left this one alone. You don't get anywhere saying $30 doesnt matter.

And what is up with Jonathon Alter saying it funds terrorism? Isn't that the politics of fear?

[hayu_lol]

135. Lessee, Hillary comes up with an idea...

the idea may be good or it may be bad--and there is no guarantee that she can get the bill through the Congress.

Has Obama got any idea about what to do at all? Haven't seen anything from him or his supporters on a workable plan that will give Americans some sort of break while we adjust to a new reality.

Further, what will Obama do, if he does come up with a valid idea, to get whatever legislation is necessary through the Congress?

Hope and Change won't wash.

Obama has experience from Illinois to show that the gas tax 'holiday' won't work. Does he know what will work?

[high density]

144. It seems you want the Magic Wand that Bush was talking about to be waved

We need a better energy policy, and Barack Obama has been talking about that. It's not going to be an overnight fix like cutting off a tax. I don't know why you present this issue as if it's some simple thing that any presidential candidate can just come out and fix overnight, especially when they're not even president yet.

For one thing you're assuming we are required "some sort of break" when such a break is not possible in the short/medium term. This is reality and if you'd rather go with the Clinton or McCain bullshit then that's your choice.

[futureliveshere]

151. Wrong. It matters to the SDs that you are able to stay away from pandering

They are the ones who will decide the primary eventually.

[ecdab]

134. If you think $10 a month, that costs jobs and hurts the environment,

is the best a Democratic President can do when they are able to affect tax policy - you are sadly mistaken. Obama will provide a much larger tax stimulus package to those who need it than $30 total dollars - and he will do it without cutting highway jobs, without hurting the environment, without providing a massive favor to the oil companies, and without pandering.

You seem to think that people will either get the $30 Hillary is pandering or they will get nothing. Fail.

[SoCalDem]

136. Promising something you CANNOT deliver does NOT get ANYONE their precious $30

1. she is NOT president this summer
2. it's already may and she's not anywhere NEAR DC to even propose a bill
3. it would have to also pass the house
4. it would have to pass committee
5. BUSH WOULD VETO IT IF IT PASSED


Even If a celestial being swooped down from the heavens and passed a bill (joke joke).. 50 states would LOSE money they need to repair roads and HIRE people to work on them..the money they LOST would be made up by RAISING STATE TAXES..

But it's all moot anyway, since she has already said she plans to campaign til the end..June...and DC shuts down for the whole month of August.. and our convention is in July..

She's a LIAR, a Panderer, and I feel sad that she's so manipulative and preying on the fears of some uneducated poor people..

She might as well have offered them all a free car..or to pay off their mortgages..

Talk is cheap..

[high density]

143. Looks like spam for correntwire.com with a side of flames

Go away.

[zulchzulu]

146. So offer them a chicken in every pot...

OK, so it's a decayed chicken full of lice and the pot has to be bought at a mandated government store for $250, but hey they get a chicken in EVERY pot!

[redqueen]

148. This is shameful in its stupidity. (nt)

[futureliveshere]

150. Its 30$ - entire summer. Secondly this money will NEVER reach the consumer

1. HRC has not proposed a bill to get this gax-tax holiday.
2. She claims that this should be coupled with the tax on oil companies (good luck with that)
3. If this gets passed then the total savings for entire summer = 30$
4. Gas prices are largely a function of supply and demand. The moment this gets passed, the market (anticipating a surge in driving) will start pushing the price of oil from 120$ per barrel to compensate. This will drive prices at the pump higher negating any positive effects.
5. There is no compulsion for the oil companies to pass this tax holiday to the consumers. They can legally just raise prices at the pump to ensure all the extra funds just flow back to them.
6. The 9 billion dollars that this holiday will cost the highway maintenance fund will result in tremendous losses to the economy as maintenance projects get shelved, condition of roads and bridges suffer and people lose jobs. Yes, this holiday will cost more than 5000 jobs in IN and 7000 jobs in NC.

Still think its a GREAT idea?

[futureliveshere]

152. HRC says "Gas Tax Holiday not possible as President will Veto"

She just figured this out????

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5840473&mesg_id=5840473

[sudopod]

156. We hate poor people

the same way we hate America. :eyes:

[ProSense]

162. Ramengate Comes To A Boil (because I love a good smack down)

Ramengate Comes To A Boil

Hmmm, Ramen Noodles or gas?


Absurd, the new disingenuous.

[polticalpout]

166. I make 18k a year and think there should be an extra 50 cent tax on gas per gallon

Yes I drive to work everyday and make only 18k a year but it's clear the only way we are going to move away from oil is when gas becomes to costly so I say tax it up so alternative energies become mainstream attractive. Imagine what the U.S. foreign policey could be if we weren't dependent to foreign oil.