Question for the self-identified "working class" voters here

[RainDog]

i.e. those who try to say that Obama is only the candidate of latte drinkers and Af-Am.

since the working class demographic is the one most likely to have sons and daughters who will serve in the military (and even more so since Bush has worked so hard to sell off U.S. assets to the highest bidders) -

how is it in your interests to support Hillary?

Obama has stated he will get the U.S. out of Iraq by 2009, by using as much wisdom getting out as those who put us there lacked going in.

Clinton's talk of bombing Iran (which, let's admit, is an appeal to Lieberman "democrats" mostly ) and her support of the IWR and her continued support of her position is more likely to put your children and grandchildren at risk in an incredibly stupid militaristic venture (that has also done more to hurt us, as far as geopolitics go, than any attack on this nation.)

So how, then is Clinton the better candidate for working class folks?

[Texas Hill Country]

1. your post is using completely warped logic

[RainDog]

6. really? explain what is warped about it

to simply make a statement like that without any sort of rhetorical evidence to back it up means nothing. or rather, it means: I don't want to answer the question so let me pretend I don't have to.

[Symarip]

2. She's the Goddess of Peace!!!

Remember?!

There's no way she'd put innocent lives in danger merely for political expediency. I mean, look at her voting record...

I mean, er, dammit, SHE'S THE GODDESS OF PEACE!!!111eleventy!!!

[dogday]

3. Last I read Obama said he would leave 80,000 in Iraq for peace-keeping mission...

That is not ending the war.. That is still half the troops and all the death, all day long....

[RainDog]

9. within what sort of timetable?

what sort of expectation?

[dogday]

10. Think about the other peace-keeping missions we are on, and then

think to yourself, how long do you think it will last with 80,0000 troops?

Heck that is still a war, anyway you want to spin it...

[RainDog]

12. I'm asking you to cite Obama's position via a link on his stance

not simply say 80k troops on a peacemaking mission. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm simply asking you what the context is. Can you provide me with a link on this position?

this is an important issue. so I think it needs to be understood - by people like me, for instance.

[dogday]

14. Here is a link, I am sure there are many others out there

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5380065&mesg_id=5380065

BTW more people should ask for reference before believing anything in this forum.. I always ask for it too... It is important to back up one's statement with reference.. Something that is severely lacking in this forum....

[RainDog]

17. Great! thank you!

this is really the sort of reply that is so useful to me. what did you think about the rest of the article, in which the person making this suggestion admitted she was one voice among many, and not a senior policy advisor? (also from the article)

n an interview yesterday, a senior Obama foreign affairs adviser, Susan Rice, said the Iraq working group is not the last word on the campaign’s Iraq policy.

“We have experts and scholars with a range of views and Barack appreciates this range of views. They are in think tanks and like me they write in their own voice, they are people who do their independent scholarship. Barack Obama cannot be held accountable for what we all write,” she said. Ms. Rice said she had not seen the paper, which is marked as a draft and “not for attribution without author’s permission.

so, your son was in Iraq? Is he "safely" out - or is stop-loss an issue for eternity (or however long the republicans are in power.. which can seem like the same thing?)

A girl I worked with till recently got married and then her husband, in the nat'l guard, was immediately shipped to Afghanistan, then "kept over" for another tour. She said she had to threaten him, tho, to keep him from signing up again - she was just so terrified that he was not coming back. I think that would be so hard. I think it would be worse if it were my two kids there.

[dogday]

23. My son was injured, but he is ok,, Got married and is

doing great... Because of his injury he does not know if he will have to go anymore... His battalion has been three times already....


Try this link if you want to read further on Obamas plans for Iraq...

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Obama+to+leave+80%2C000+troops+in+Iraq&fr=ush1-mail

[RainDog]

34. I'm sorry to hear about his injury

but congrats on his marriage!

I have to say that for at least a few years, whenever I ran into college republicans, I had to ask them why they were here rather than there. A draft is a scary thing (I have two sons) but it is infinitely more democratic. Of course the Bushies and the Lloyd Bentsen boys will generally figure out a way to game the system, but many more would not, esp. if there were no college deferments.

My older son is high functioning autistic (had asperger's syndrome.) If they tried to draft and train him, I'm afraid he would end up dead because, tho he looks like his brain functions in the same way as "neurotypicals" (what aspies call the rest of us) he really does not "get" instructions that would seem obvious to you or me.

Recruiters came to my house about him and we ended up "having words."

Bush got us into such a mess. It is so heartbreaking, really, for Americans and Iraqis.

[dogday]

37. Another thing we have in common.. My younger Sister is Autistic

She functions well, but I would not call her functional.. She lives in a group home for Autistic Adults and works a job.. She does real well in the kitchen.. Can't read or write at all, and would not understand if someone was out to hurt her...

My best wishes to you and your Son... It is a journey worth taking and I feel very fortunate to know my little Sister.

[ieoeja]

18. So an adviser recommends this. What does Obama say?

"Both Mr. Kahl and a senior Obama campaign adviser reached yesterday said the paper does not represent the campaign's Iraq position."

[dogday]

22. Not a word from Obama, but he should not let his

Senior Advisors making their plan public, if that is not the way they will go....

http://votersforpeace.us/press/index.php?itemid=196

Below is an exchange of letters between Phyllis Bennis of the Institute for Policy Studies and Tom Hayden of Progressive for Obama on whether Obama will end the war. Since this debate Obama has more clearly stated that he would leave 140,000 private military contractors in Iraq as well as tens of thousands of troops. On the latter, Obama has not been specific but his top Iraq advisor says that by 2010 60,000 to 80,000 troops should be in Iraq. And, Obama has also clarified that he would leave combat troops in the region (how many is unclear) to serve as a strike force to attack Iraq. He would also send more troops to Afghanistan -- again unclear as to the number.

In this exchange the two agree that Obama's position is our of step with progressives and continued pressure is needed. Indeed, Sen. Obama's lack of a real withdrawal plan puts him in the minority of U.S. public opinion where 2/3 of Americans want the Iraq occupation ended. The members of Progressives for Obama are willing to put aside this difference and support him while continuing to pressure him.

In addition to Iraq, Obama is out of step on other foreign policy/military issues. He is keeping the military option on the table for Iran, ignoring the plight of the Palestinians while giving total support to Israel, calling for a bigger military with 92,000 more troops and modeling his foreign policy after George H.W. Bush, Ronald Reagan and JFK -- all of which were involved in coups around the world (including JFK bringing the Baath Party to power in Iraq), and military actions. They were all presidents who used the U.S. military aggressively. Obama gives the military high priority. For example, while he talks about a green economy and green jobs he proposes only spending over ten years as much as we are spending in Iraq in one year.

[RainDog]

24. The statement I saw was that he had several diff. advisors who made diff.

suggestions based on various scenarios.

I mean, let's face it. The economy is a horrible issue (as in, the state it is in) but that's something that democrats have consistently shown they outperform republicans on... over a 50 year study, in fact. just getting the republicans out will help so that they cannot do MORE damage.

but this issue of Iraq is one that, honestly, I'm glad I don't have to face. I honestly do not think there is any way to "fix" the mess because you cannot create the conditions for a civil war and then think it doesn't matter. Not to mention that Bush, etc. bungled their attempts to install a "shah." That might be a good thing in the long run because we see what happened when the shah fell.

At this point, I think it would be entirely fair to ask all those politicians who supported the war and who continue to claim it was/is a good thing to volunteer themselves and their families to see it out. That would be a form of responsibility that makes sense. General Smedley Butler also nailed it when he said that the CEOs of the companies that make war supplies should make the same salary as an enlisted man for the duration of any war.

the only way to have a war only if necessary is to take the profit out of it. I won't hold my breath.

[dogday]

26. Read my journal about the NPR report where it states

we will be in Iraq for the next 20 years... I believe nobody is going to do a damn thing, but I can only hope the Democrats will try.....

[ieoeja]

29. Weimar Republic versus the Marshall Plan

While one could argue that Germany was asking for it given their aggression a decade earlier, they did *not* start the first World War. Conversely, the Germans knew perfectly well that they started the second World War, and that they were treated far more decently in defeat than they likely deserved.

PNAC never considered that psychological difference when deciding to implement a Marshall Plan in the Middle East.

We are setting the groundwork for a new Weimar Republic in Iraq. Hope this one doesn't end up as badly as the last.

[maddiejoan]

4. Only one of our 2 candidates

has suggested any pre-emptive Military actions on a sovereign state --and it ain't Hillary.

[RainDog]

8. has she stated a position or timetable for withdrawal?

On what grounds does she continue to defend her position on the IWR?

[maddiejoan]

13. She has stated she'll

start withdrawing troops within 60 days.

Obama has said 16 months and expects us not to be out within 2 years.

Hillary has stated many times during this campaign that the IWR vote is her biggest regret.

[zanne]

5. The MSM is saying that Obama supporters are the "elite"...

It's pure BS. I'm about as far from "elite" as you can get, and so were many of the Obama volunteers in NH. They actually had to make that one up out of thin air.

[RainDog]

7. I agree with you

which is why I want to find out about the people here who use the term "elitist" in regard to Obama when he is, in fact, the only candidate with a non-elite background.

[styersc]

11. Wow thanks so much for your keen insight.

That's what I like about the Obama supporters. They aren't afraid to condescend to us stupid little working class people. How else would I know how to vote my interests.

[RainDog]

15. So all you have is insults?

There are those on this site... I'll go provide links if you want them... who call themselves "working class" who claim only Hillary cares about their well being.

what is condescending about asking someone what they think about the issue of the Iraq occupation? I am not telling you how to vote. I'm asking you, if you identify as working class, why this issue isn't given the same sort of importance as a gas tax holiday.

You really, really have to stretch to find condescension in that.

Maybe you won't answer the question upright, but instead attack me, because you are bothered that you cannot attack Obama as an elitist on this?

(oh, btw, I'm from the south (oh, and white) and my mother's parents were so poor that, in the mid-1960s, they had no indoor toilet. they were farmers. so don't try to pretend that supporting Obama only comes from some "elitist" position. You know what pulled my family out of desperate poverty? Education. Same as Michelle and Obama. Why don't you try to drop the bullshit and talk about the substance of my post?)

[styersc]

20. Your post has no substance.

Only condesecension and misinformation.

There is no telling what will happen with the military under Obama because he has a very short and unimpressive public career. He has doen nothing in the Senate to suggest his approach would be any different then Hillary's. In 85 votes they were separated only one time when he voted in favor of a Bush general while Hillary opposed the appointment.

In a speech early in his Senate campaign he stated that he would have opposed the war. This has not been reflected in his Senate activity. No fillibuster, no attempt to form an anti-war coalition, no attempt to stop funding or even apply criteria for funding. Nothing. You can call him a peace candidate based upon a hypothetical in an early speech. I guess if he had said that he would have cured AIDs you could claim he is a medical researcher, or if he said that he would have gone to the moon you can claim he is an astronaut. Barak was right in his book when he said that he is a blank slate that people are projecting their dreams upon. You are doing that very thing.

How is Hillary's suggestion that she would use any means to protect Israel from an Iranian attack any different then Obama's suggestion that he would launch military attacks against Pakistan. Well several differences are that Pakistan is an allie with nuclear weapons. Another difference is that Iran has been an enemy for at least 30 years. Another is our treaty obligations to Israel.

No use speaking truths to you. You are projecting a fantasy on to the blank slate that is Obama and when one votes for a pipe dream, no amount of reality can intervefne.

[RainDog]

25. and your post isn't condescension?

LOL. okay, let's agree to put each other on ignore then. bye.

[styersc]

27. Flee to your comfort zone.

No use trying to defend an indefensible point.

[lumberjack_jeff]

16. It is in my interests to support Hillary because

Obama hasn't promised anything. The closest he got to a promise "16 months best case scenario" got his adviser fired. Hillary has promised to begin redeployment immediately.

It is not at all clear that Obama will have troops out of Iraq faster than Hillary.

[RainDog]

21. Dean really pissed me off when he said

after the invasion, and all that, that now that we were there, we had to find a way to deal with the situation in a way that did not hurt us more. It's a real quagmire, that's for sure. But it pissed me off so badly, most of all, because there was no "punishment" for any of the pundits or politicians that got us there in the first place. that's the problem with the U.S. now, imo. No one in a position of power is ever held responsible for his/her actions. That two tier system of "justice" is simply wrong.

at this point I know that no one in the U.S. govt will hold Bush, Rummy, Cheney, etc. accountable for lying in order to start a war of aggression. Luckily for the American people, however, if/when any of them set foot inside a nation that honors int'l human rights, if a complaint has been filed (and at least two have been filed by American lawyers - one in France and one in Ger.) these countries, by law, HAVE TO investigate the charges of int'l human rights violations.. or war crimes. sadly that seems to be the only way Americans will hold the Bush League accountable. and that will take years.. Pinochet years, maybe.

did you follow the link above about the policy advisors? apparently there are quite a few different opinions?

do you think that Hillary will actually be able to begin a withdrawal in 60 days?

[RaleighNCDUer]

32. What do promises mean if they come from a proven liar? nt

[slackmaster]

19. I voted for Obama

[mcctatas]

28. Both of them are good for the middle class....

"DMI’s scorecard grades members of Congress based on their votes on ten pieces of legislation in the House
and ten in the Senate that would have the most significant impact on the squeezed middle class and the
aspirations of low-income Americans who want to join the middle class. Of the ten House votes considered,
the middle-class position prevailed nine times: the harmful Peru trade bill was the only exception. In the
Senate, however, the ability of a minority of Senators to filibuster pro-middle-class legislation took its toll.
The middle-class position prevailed just four out of ten times, although some of the Senate’s damage was
undone through subsequent or amended legislation.
As for the three top presidential contenders, Senators Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton each received an
“A+” grade. Stunningly, Senator McCain was the only member of the Senate to receive an “incomplete”
because he missed a majority of the graded votes. Even Senator Tim Johnson, who suffered a life
threatening brain hemorrhage in December 2006 and did not return to the Senate until September 2007,
managed to vote on 50% more pieces of critical middle-class legislation than did Senator McCain. “When it
came to doing something about the middle class, Senator McCain simply wasn’t there for them,” said Ms.
Schlesinger." http://themiddleclass.org/files/MC%20scorecard%202007%20press%20release.pdf

[eilen]

30. We are working class, blue collar

voters (my dh is an union electrician and I am an RN) -- we are voting Obama. We can't understand why any blue collar voter would vote for her. We are in NY and if we have to write him in we will. We've already had Bush for the last 8 years, we are tired of this nasty self interest lying screw the voters meme.

[Neshanic]

31. On the war neither will end it. No difference in candidates.

[BlooInBloo]

33. They're just bigots in the way that white folks have silently agreed is acceptable.

[Solon]

35. No she is not, and Obama is equally worse as well...

If you want my working class credentials, well, I make a little over 6 bucks an hour working as a clerk at a gas station.

We should be focusing on voting against Republicans, if only because they are worse than either Clinton or Obama. Neither one of these Democratic candidates is going to do much for the working class, and charges of elitism are equally valid against both of them.

[Stinky The Clown]

36. Your arguing on logic

"Working class" vote on gut feeling. Yes, that's a broad brush statement. But I grew up in the Norththeast as working class and still kinda think of myself that way. Most working class people that I know just don't bother to think politics very deeply. They absorb what they hear and make decisions based on what sounds most credible to them. No deep contemplation. They're actually very sincere in what they feel, but, again, there's no deep contemplation.

If you want to consider what 'working class' people will do, ask (or better yet, think like) working class people who are not political junkies.