If You Think You "Know" Clinton Remember, You Have Never Met Her

[McCamy Taylor]

You know only the video montage and the sound bite that some corporate media lackey chose to loop onto your television set. Or maybe someone at a site that goes by the name of C.U.N.T. or HillaryHatersRUS. Or someone who works for a political opponent but says he did it on his own time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6h3G-lMZxjo

You only know the words that were misquoted or edited out of context (sometimes by Drudge) or even made up by unreliable sources like Bob Novak or Moonie Publications or Drudge. Or misquoted by the New York Times over and over again, even though Media Matters called them out on it over and over again.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200803030004

You only know the topics that interested the self described journalists---like her tits.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGgBz87FZeo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9uGDVid7BA&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9uSh1fU7A4

And her cackle

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YIX4C2V5w8

And her cheating ways

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-CZjvEjPlQ&feature=related

And her criminal ways

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2GNqhz1P9Y&feature=related

Back in 2000, a bunch of you thought that you knew that Al Gore was the "same as" George W. Bush. And if you were too young to vote, a bunch of people just like you thought that they knew this. Because the corporate media told them, so they would stay home. And Ralph Nader, who was running for president told them (in order to get their votes). And Michael Moore told them, to help Nader get their votes. And they saw Al Gore looking dumb on TV and they read about how he was a liar in the press. And they believed it.

But the press was lying back then. This is a different press, now. This press tells the truth. They show things exactly the way that they are. And we are different now. We could never be fooled again.

Yeah, right. Thirty years ago, Dick Nixon illegally invaded Cambodia, precipitating a genocide that would be dubbed the "Killing Fields." He could have been impeached for that and charged with war crimes. So could Henry Kissinger. Instead he was allowed to resign and given a pardon for his crimes against US citizens and no one did anything about Cambodia. Kissinger got off scott free and was able to come back and help Cheney and Bush plan the illegal invasion of Iraq where crimes against humanity have occurred and another Democratic Congress has been too scared or apathetic to impeach.

In the meantime, the press has lost what little independence it had. Most of the nation's newspapers and TV news are controlled by a handful of giants that care more about the profits of the parent company than about journalistic integrity. They will kiss the ass of whatever federal regulatory agency can improve their financial status. Usually, that means a Republican administration FCC, except for GE/NBC which kisses the ass of the Pentagon.

So, the corporate media turns out high grade propaganda designed to improve its bottom line. They do not even care if they make a profit anymore. Ratings only matter, because they want to make sure that voters get the message.

This election, ABC and CNN will side with the Democrats, because McCain has pissed off Time-Warner and Disney with his A La Carte Cable stance. FOX will side with McCain. The Tribune Co. and CBS have to do what the Bush administration tells them or else the FCC can make them divest their media holdings. GE/NBC is the wild card. McCain wanted to run against Clinton, because in a McCain-Clinton race, GE would back McCain. McCain supports nuclear energy and the Pentagon likes McCain. But in an Obama-McCain race, GE is torn. The Pentagon is split between the two, and both men will support GE's plan to get back into the business of building nuclear power plants in this country. Obama will be better for the price of oil and immigration policy which is good for manufacturing, so NBC will probably go for Obama. NYT for Obama. Washington Post for McCain. McClatchy will report the news.

That is how the contest will be decided. And that is how elections in this country will continue to be run, until we create a working viable public broadcast system like the one they have in England, Japan and about every other civilized country on earth.

You thought that you knew Hillary Clinton and you were so surprised when you discovered that you did not know her at all about--let me check my watch---five months ago. But it did not have anything to do with the four journals full of media bias that I was able to document from January 2007 through the first months of 2008, no sir.

If you do not learn to see through the corporate media lies, you are going to be surprised at what you "discover" about some other candidates in the very near future, people that you thought that you knew very well, too. Just ask George McGovern. I don't think a week passed from the Democratic Convention in 1972 before the press which had been in love with him started tearing him to little shreds, and all those people who had thought he was so honest and trustworthy decided that he was such a lying sack of shit and that even Dick Nixon was a better choice.

"If the doors of perception were cleans'd everything would appear to man as it is, infinite
For man has closed himself up til he sees all things thro' narrow chinks of his cavern."
William Blake

Every Democrat is Hillary Clinton.

[northzax]

1. but I have

several times. She is charming, warm and obscenely brilliant.

By the way, so is Al Gore.

[MaineDem]

6. I echo your thoughts

I think she's one of the most intelligent women I've ever met. And extremely charming.

[northzax]

11. I'll remove the qualification

she's flat out one of the most brilliant people I have ever met. And I spend time with some absurdly brilliant people.

[jmal123]

112. I second that....

I second that.... I agree with you. She is flat out one of the
most brillian person in at least three lifetimes. 

[nichomachus]

16. I know lots of warm, charming and brilliant people. I don't

necessarily want them to be president of the US. My thesis adviser comes to mind -- wonderful person, very smart -- not the best guy to run the country, though.

[northzax]

18. my problem with the US electorate

is that we want the President to be a 'good guy' (or girl, theoretically) who can work a large crowd. the problem is, that has very little to do with actually governing a country of 300+ million people. I personally, want my President to be a cold-hearted ruthless bastard when he needs to be. I want him to run the White House and executive branch with efficiency and skill. I want a senior executive, not a motivational speaker. I want someone who knows what government does, who holds their people accountable, and sees it as their job to make the government the best it can possibly be. I want a freaking policy wonk, I want a manager. I don't care about pretty speeches to large crowds. the President doesn't need to charm a room of ten thousand people, he needs to charm a room of his ten closest aides to work their asses off for him, and us. he needs to charm senators and reps to vote, he needs to charm senior executive service people to work harder and better. he needs to charm foreign leaders, one on one.

we seem to keep electing people because they seem like regular people we like. (Reagan, Clinton, Bush. note that Bush I, the non-regular wonkish guy only go in on Reagan's coattails and couldn't hold the office) many people have voted for Obama because they like him more than they like Hillary. This is not a good basis for government. REemmber when the captain of the Football Team got elected student body president? same thing.

I don't care if I like the person, I care if they are good.

[nichomachus]

20. It's not a problem with the electorate -- it's the system

We are the only major country where the head of state and the head of government are the same person. This causes a schizoid set of requirements for the presidency. If the two functions were separate, you wouldn't have this problem. You want the head of state to be warm and charming, inspiring, someone you can look up to. You want the head of government to be the cold-hearted efficient bastard who has efficiency and skill. You want the head of state to be a "motivational speaker," as you say. You want the head of government to hold people accountable. You want the head of state to charm a room of ten thousand people. You want the head of government to charm his ten closest aides.

If we had an elected king/queen and then a head of government, we could more easily pigeonhole candidates into those roles. Reagan would have been a great king and Dukakis would have been a great head of government. Poppy Bush -- OK as a king -- terrible as head of government. Dennis K -- great as head of government; not so good as a king. Ralph Nader -- OK, court jester.

So, at any given time, we don't know what we want -- this is why we have such sharp and seemingly irreconcilable difference about who is the best candidate.

We have further complicated this by the fact we allowed our leaders to put us on permanent war footing -- meaning we now want our president to be head of state, head of government, and head of the military. This means we want someone who is warm, charming, inspiring, ruthless, efficient, smart but not too smart, elite but not too elite, common but not too common, kind and generous but willing to obliterate entire populations.

So, it's not the voters -- it's the system.

[McCamy Taylor]

25. Gore Vidal in "Duluth" solved it with muliplte presidents. Actor pres, foreign policy pres etc.

I think the unity ticket is the way to go, because with Obama as the president he would be the FDR that would be the source of inspiration with the Fireside chats, keeping people from despairing in the recession/depression while Clinton would be the Eleanor that all the poor people would count upon to be like a general use "mom".

[OzarkDem]

93. I don't see Obama as FDR-like

He doesn't appear to have a populist bone in his body and he's more televangelist than "firesid chats".

Roosevelt also understood the business world realized it needed to be regulated both to benefit the country and to prevent it from destroying itself. Obama is too reverent of the business world to ever attempt to control it.

[DFW]

70. Same here. Several times, and with the same assessment.

Those were my impressions of Bill Clinton, Al Gore, and, for that matter,
Barack Obama as well.

[cali]

2. Sorry, I don't get my information from the sources you detail.

Hillary voted for the IWR. Hillary supported an obscene and catastrophic war for years. Hillary voted for K/L and against restricting cluster bombs in civilian areas. Hillary has used hawkish and imprudent language. Hillary's campaign employed the Southern Strategy in an attempt to frame Obama as a fringe minority candidate with no appeal to white voters.

I certainly am not one whe ever said or thought that Gore was like Bush. I fought against that kind of idiocy. I don't think Hill is like McCain.

Oh, and no, sorry, I don't hate Hillary Clinton.

[mopinko]

13. what cali said. you are insulting all at du with that crap.

we are all here to get better info that those sound bites. except for those that are here to fling poo.

[McCamy Taylor]

31. Then you do not think you "know" Clinton. You base it on her policies. This OP is not for you.

I admire you for making an informed decision. I wish that more Americans did that.

[PassingFair]

96. I maintain that this OP does not apply to ANYONE on DU.

Send it to the Freepers.

We are all mostly INFORMED here.

That is why Obama supporters outnumber
Hillary supporters 3 or 4 to one.

[katerinasmommy]

34. Bankruptcy Bill

Futhermore, why is it that no one ever mentions that she voted for a bankruptcy bill written by the credit card companies and banks that didn't even make a provision for medical reasons. For the middle class? Warrior for the working people? BULLSHIT

[Donnachaidh]

43. So did Biden, who was also being held up as a potential President

And still is considered *presidential material*. But of course, HIS record wasn't discussed ad nauseum on this forum. Why is that?

[JMDEM]

74. Obama supporter here

Wasn't Hillary absent for that vote? I think this was right after Bill's mild heart attack or surgery or something.

[Donnachaidh]

42. "Hillary supported an obscene and catastrophic war for years" --

knock knock knock -- SO DID OBAMA.

But that's CONVENIENTLY left out by the ones who would rather spend time knocking down Hillary. We've got an awful lot of those *freeps wrapped in Blue* who conveniently forget that Obama does NOT walk on water, and is at best, an eloquent speaker but terribly shy on doing the hard work that is going to have to be done.

What was the term -- *criminally naive*? Yup -- that's the foaming at the mouth Obama supporter. They mix their own brand of koolaid. :eyes:

[Chalco]

88. Exactly. Plus

he was not in the senate when the vote happened in 2002. NO ONE KNOWS NOT EVEN OBAMA HOW HE WOULD HAVE VOTED ON THE RECORD. We and he only know what he is saying he would have done. Woulda, coulda, shoulda, didn't.

[DeeDeeNY]

3. I know Hillary. She is my Senator. I don't go by sound bites

You make assumptions about anyone who is not for Hillary. I have nothing against her but believe that Obama is more electable and would make a better President.

[Zodiak]

4. The DLC and its policies are main reason I do not like her

I have yet to see the MSM criticize her for that point, so I hardly think the shoe fits.

[WA98296]

19. Bing. Bing. Bing. That's it exactly.

[lisa58]

5. I've met her...

...that's why I didn't vote for her.

[democrattotheend]

9. Interesting. What was your experience meeting her?

I got to see her up close before and sort of met her, and did not get a great vibe. I'm curious what your experience was.

[lisa58]

12. It was a fundraiser held for her senate re-election...

...at the home of a buisness acquaintance. I spent some serious money (for me) to be there and I really, really wanted to like her but she was not authentic at all. She was calculating not in a deceiving type of way, but way too cautious. You got the feeling she didn't trust anybody and was just going through the motions.

[Beacool]

59. Hillary does not trust easily because she's been burned too many times.

But to those who she feels that she can trust she's fantastic. She's the smartest person in any room, she actually listens to people's input in meetings and often takes their advice. She's the type of boss who always praises her staff for a job well done and who remembers birthdays, spouses and children. She will also be one of the first to call to offer help if someone is ill or has a loss in their family.

She's also has a great sense of humor and is a lot of fun to be around when "off duty".

The caricature that has been portrayed of the woman by the media and others is not who she really is.

[lisa58]

87. Well, think how "burned" so many contributors feel...

...they give to her campaigns but aren't considered cool enough?

[mmonk]

7. I worked for Clinton/Gore in 96.

I'm familiar with her.

[democrattotheend]

8. I sort of met her once

She spoke at the Young Dems convention in 2003, and I waited in line for a while to get a picture, but she stopped taking them before I got a turn. I managed to jump in a picture with her but she wasn't looking at the camera because she did not know it was being taken. I tried to get her attention but couldn't.

Her staff person was being kind of bitchy, saying she would only sign her books and pushing away people who did not have her book and wanted her to sign our convention nametag. I did not get a great vibe from Clinton...she seemed like she was just running through the motions and did not really want to spend the time talking to any of us.

To be fair, she goes to so many of those events every day, and it has to get tiring. I'm sure she has good days and bad days, and she can't always be charming all the time. I have heard other people who have met her say she can be very warm in person.

My encounter with her wasn't the reason I decided not to support her in the primaries, but if I had gotten a really warm vibe from her I might have been more inclined to support her.

[ProSense]

10. You forgot these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2Z9o37FQI4&eurl

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BrPZYbCdJ4&eurl

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9CRgFO2mnM&eurl

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1ckrEeHDRY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk1k0nUWEQg

[goclark]

14. I have met HC and I read her book cover to cover

and loved it.

I have met her husband and believe they are intelligent.

I didn't know the "Media Clinton's" nor do I want to know the Clinton's that you described in your post.

I didn't click the links because it was not my taste.

I do know that the HC that I met and the BC that I met are not the same people that I see with my own eyes(not the eyes of the Media.)

These 2008 Clinton's are different from the two people that I voted for/donated to and adored in past elections.

They are different.

I don't allow Morning Joe to tell me who I should vote for ...

[Samantha]

15. I received a call from her campaign and was asked if I would like

to meet her when she came to Maryland. I politely declined.

I do not support her because of her support of the resolution which gave Bush* the authority to conduct a preeminent attack on Iraq, and because of the way she conducts herself politically. Additionally, she and Bill Clinton have had control over the DLC since 2000, and I do not like the idea of supporting anyone that advocates its policies and philosophies. The DLC stepping out and asking Al Gore not to run in 2004 cinched my contempt for it. (Of course, it did so to protect Hillary's political flank; she could not run in 2008, challenging an incumbent Al Gore for the White House).

[Hugabear]

17. And I'm sure that George W. Bush is really nice in person

Remember, the whole meme about him was that he was a guy that you could have a beer with, that he was "down to earth" or whatever that means.

Just about anybody, no matter how badly they're demonized, or how horrible their policies are, can be a real charmer in person.

[Arkansas Granny]

30. I remember reading an article by Molly Ivins a few years ago where she said that

Bush could be very charming and personable.

[Texas Hill Country]

21. k & r

[DCofVA]

22. If You Think You "Know" Clinton Remember, You Have Never Met Her

The problem is; she has never allowed me to meet her. She put on so many different faces throughout her campaign, I found myself asking, who is the real Hilary?
She would have done so much better if only at the very beginning of her campaign the real Hilary would have stood up, and remained constant and true to herself, and to us.
And if she had admitted early on, that her vote to go to war was a mistake, then I would have voted for her in the VA primaries.

[NewHampshireDem]

28. Well said

The OP should make it clear which Hillary she's talking about. She's like an Barbie Doll, isn't she?

Tough fighter Hillary?

Sad crying Hillary?

Racist Hillary?

Populist Hillary?

Right-wing Hillary?

Liberal Hillary?

Hillary from PA?

Hillary from IN?

Hillary from NY?

Hillary from IL?

Hillary from AK?

Cubs fan Hillary?

Yankees fan Hillary?

Damn, I'm getting tired and haven't even gotten through the whole set! That's not even all of Series 1!

[pollo poco]

36. A Barbie doll?

What the hell do you mean by that?

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jakes Progress]

55. First Rove rule:

When the enemy identifies you, accuse them of being a republican.

Your childish tirades aid no one who desires a more progressive government. It does however help to divide the party, dilute the progressive vote, and aid the Republican agenda.

[Aloha Spirit]

23. Obama's uh support uh among um working, uh hard working Americans, White Americans, is um weakening

[judasdisney]

24. Reputations are EARNED

I never, EVER saw Hillary fight against Republicans the way she fought against Obama.

[faithfulcitizen]

41. Amen Judas! My thoughts exactly. Why couldn't she have stood up to Bush to earn the name "fighter".

I don't have to meet her in person. It's the words from her own mouth, not taking out of context, that tell me what I need to know.

[bpeale]

108. and when has obama stood up for you, me, the poor or anything

that's not politically correct or designed to get him the presidency? never, that's when. so don't go there.

[Jakes Progress]

46. And I never, ever saw Barack

fight against the Republicans the way he fought against Clinton.

This is different in what way?

[McCamy Taylor]

77. How old were you in 1993-4?

[NewHampshireDem]

26. Yes, here at DU we never get our news from anyone but Drudge, or Novack, or the Times

Sad, sad, sad.

[redqueen]

27. Ironically...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5874969&mesg_id=5883864


Voters are supposed to get to know the candidates during the campaign. Before the primary, the candidates go and introduce themselves. That's when Obama's numbers have usually gone up, and Hillary's have usually gone down.

[livetohike]

29. We've had 16 years of knowing Hillary Clinton and the folks

in Arkansas have had much, much longer than that. Her life is a campaign - since Bill ran for the House in 1974. That's 34 years of being in the public eye.

We see the politician all too well.

[McCamy Taylor]

33. That is why she was so popular 6 months ago around here? And a pariah now?

[NewHampshireDem]

39. Well, she's said a lot these past 6 months, hasn't she

You could probably say the same thing about Joe Liberman, too, couldn't you? I'm sure he was pretty popular around here at one point.

Oh .. and isn't there some guy on TV, I think he has a show on MSNBC or something, who used to be pretty popular with you and other Hillary folks.

The street runs both ways, dear.

[livetohike]

44. She was never popular with me - in fact she was at the very bottom

of my list of Dems to support as far as agreeing on issues. But then, back in 1992, I thought Bill Clinton was too conservative. He wasn't on my radar screen in the lead up to the primary elections. I didn't vote for him until the GE.

The Democratic party has a big umbrella, fortunately, we can all participate.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

76. she's never been the same since that sniper fire in Bosnia

poor thing.

[anigbrowl]

32. Thanks for your patronizing attitude

I'll remember that the next time I'm reading one of the books or serious print news sources which I prefer to television. Nice that you think everyone but you is led around by the nose by the mainstream media. Indeed, this appears to be a disease among right wingers as well...the belief that media paranoia makes them more informed.

I find it odd that so many Clinton supporters engage in implicit appeals to authority by saying things like 'is this your first election?' or telling the rest of us that we don't understand the media. Some of us have actually worked in the media and don't need lessons in how it functions, thanks.

[McCamy Taylor]

37. You are welcome. While I continue to see dehumanizing attacks against Clinton at DU I will

continue to object to them. While I realize that some of these threads are flamebait started by outside agitators with the intention to divide and conquer Democrats, a year ago when these Freepers showed up, people did not fall for their tricks. They were called out for what they were. Now they get rated up to the top of the greatest page.

And lately, many of the divide and conquer threads are started by legitimate DUers.

If you think that Hillary is a cheater a liar a bitch a witch cold calculating or any of the other words used to describe these characteristics, you have fallen for the corporate media's Big Lie just as I predicted here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3720195&mesg_id=3720195

Nov 15, 2007

WARNING! Hillary is the B Word is the “Gore is a Liar” of 2008

If you want I can go check her poll numbers from Nov. but I already know what they were. She was way ahead in the Dem, race and she was trusted and liked among Democrats.

[Jakes Progress]

47. I think we have a way to identify

the dorm freepers, those kids with free college band width who get their beer money from the pr firms that Rove uses. They are the ones still flinging and snarking. They fear the loss of their party funds if DU figures this out. They don't need to worry. They can always go over to HPo.

[digidigido]

63. In November 2007 Rudy Gulliani had high numbers and Spitzer was respected

However, sometimes peoples character is revealed under stress, and by how they handle disappointments. Politics is brutal, I wouldn't run for office. I think Hillary's numbers throughout the campaign have been pretty constant. About 45%. with 55% preferring some other democrat

[McCamy Taylor]

79. You just proved my point. The MSM took down Rudi overnight when they discovered Newscorp had him in

its pocket. Rudi's fall from grace was not a natural phenomenon, and anyone reading this who did not already know this needs to be very alarmed at their own lack of awareness of the kind of games that the corporate media plays and its power to influence elections.

Since Rudi was a Republican candidate I could watch their games and derive amusement out of them. It was fun to see the MSM devour one of its own. As soon as Judith Reagan indicated that Newscorp owned Rudi---meaning that his FCC would make rulings that would favor Newscorp above all other mainstream media players, the other media giants like the NYTs, MSNBC, CNN went into attack mode. They know how predatory Newscorp is. They deprived Rudi of his designated nominee status. They began to attack him in the way that only a Democrat usually gets attacked. His campaign collapsed within a matter of months.

Rudi is proof that the MSM can demolish a candidate when they choose, for no reason except that he threatens their business interests--even if he is the anointed one by Bush and Cheney.

If they dared to do that to Rudi, they can do this to any Democrat. They did it to John Edwards. Remember, the nation's Chamber of Commerce had on open $60 million bounty on his head for people doing oppo against him in the primary. Everyone knew about it. The power and money involved in elections dwarfs the kind of power that people like the Clintons or the Obamas or the McCains have. They are just puppets.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

75. its as if DU'ers are using the "kitchen sink strategy" against poor Hillary

or sniper fire.

[urgk]

114. So, how is she *not* a liar?

I mean completely objectively, how has she not lied? Thee sniper comments would suggest otherwise.

For that matter, how is she not calculating? The constant Rev. Wright mentions would suggest otherwise. As would the mention of Farrakhan during the debate.

How is she not a cheater? The move to seat Michigan and Florida against the rules set forth by the DNC would suggest otherwise.

While I appreciate your passionate defense of somebody you see as being unjustly wronged, it seems as though she's earned most of the criticism.

[dionysus]

35. "Every Democrat is Hillary Clinton. "

:rofl: pass it to the left... don't fuck up the rotation...

[grantcart]

105. well its kind of a 'minnie me' fixation

[AZBlue]

40. Sorry, I'm not a youtube junkie, so I actually get news and information.

I know who she is and that person is vile.

[Jakes Progress]

48. Do you get paid extra

for the big old logos? I think that Rove would be happy with just the flaming words. bit the logo is a nice touch.

[RTBerry]

60. You have formed an opinion of her, that's all.

We never really know anyone.  But we do form opinions of
others, and usually through unthinking reactions that we have
been conditioned to accept as "normal."  

Your "knowing" of her as "vile" is akin to
the "knowing" of hard-core conservative ditto-heads
(their self-characterization, not mine) when they react to the
word "liberal."  To them, the word conjures up
weakness, appeasement, moral decadency, and all manner of
negative connotations.  They have been conditioned to judge
their fellow humans through a screen that divides
"us" and "them;" and "they" (the
liberals) are--when you get down to it--evil, damned, and
deserving of punishment.  

But that's not unique to the so-called
"ditto-heads."  Almost everyone does the same sort
of thing.  Almost everyone confuses their opinions with the
facts.  

Even opinions that are factual are still only opinions.  

But oh, what evil have we humans wrought on such a basis! 
Once you deem a person vile, well... almost anything is
justified.      

[McCamy Taylor]

80. Well said!

:applause:

[blm]

45. EVERY Democrat is NOT a protector of Closed Government. EVERY Dem didn't undermine other Dem leaders

who stood up to oppose BushInc the last 8 years.

YOU may crow about being with the Clintons on the Closed Government wing of the Dem party, but I will STICK with the Anti-Corruption, Open Government wing of the Democratic party, and fight you until there are NO MORE Closed Government Democrats, PERIOD!

[Jakes Progress]

49. Pure RoveCo ad copy.

I suppose you will be sitting out this election if you will not vote for anyone with a voting record like Hillary's.

[MessiahRp]

67. Because Obama voted FOR the Iraq War and Kyl/Lierberman? No wait, that was Hillary.

So I guess we will be voting for someone with a different voting record than Hillary.

Rp

[Jakes Progress]

90. Less information is bliss, I suppose.

So I guess you don't want to know that Obama did not vote against the War Powers Act and that the Kyl/Lieberman vote was a tit-for-tat internal tiff between former friends Barack and Joe because of hurt feelings over un-repaid voting favors. For the other dozen or so votes to continue the war, to extend the war, to keep giving Bush carte blanche for his war, Obama has exactly the same dismal voting record as Clinton. Not once did either of these two stand up with the Democrats who were willing to put their careers on the line to try to stop the war and bring troops home. Neither did. Both are career politicians who have voted and spoke what they felt was needed to maintain a power base and move up the system. We have no messiahs here.

So maybe you do know Clinton. But it seems you don't know your own candidate.

[blm]

68. NO REPUBLICAN EVER COMPLAINED about Clintons protecting BushInc - Rove LOVED Clintons' help

the whole time they were undermining Gore, supporting and defending Bush on Ira, and when they sabotaged Kerry's for Bush.

Rove, MY ASS. Clintons LOVE Rove and his tactics - they never ONCE STOOD AGAINST him or Bush until she wanted to win a primary.

Clintons loved Rove and his tactics - go use the gawddam google and STICK with those fucking traitors to the Dem party if THAT is the side you want to follow.

[Jakes Progress]

91. Good job of dividing.

Speaking of Rove love, you're really getting it now. In just three semi-literate paragraphs you have stuck in just about all the lies he wants you to use to keep the republicans in power. Buy yourself a case of beer; the check's in the mail.

[blm]

99. Bull - Clintons and Bushes are an alliance that Rove services. And Bill ADMIRED Rove publicly

But I'll bet you can't admit that even to yourself.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/14/AR2007081401722.html

The Rove Legacy

By Peter Baker
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, August 15, 2007; Page A03

As he packs his desk just 15 steps from the Oval Office, Karl Rove says he will not join any 2008 presidential campaign. That's just as well because none of the Republican candidates presumably could afford the association even if they wanted his strategic smarts. Besides, none of them is running the campaign quite the way he would. The candidate who seems to be adopting his style and methods the most so far? Hillary Rodham Clinton.

At least that's what Nicolle Wallace thinks. The former Bush White House communications director, who worked closely with Rove, said that Clinton "has almost operationalized the whole idea of turning your weakness into strength, message discipline that is almost pathological -- she does not get off message for any reason -- and never skipping an opportunity to exploit her opponent's weaknesses."
>>>>>

Clinton's campaign manager, Patti Solis Doyle, seems to agree with that assessment, having effectively vowed to run her operation much as Rove did his two successful national campaigns. "She expresses admiration for the way George W. Bush's campaign team controlled its message, and, given her druthers, would run this race no differently," Michelle Cottle writes this month in New York magazine. " 'We are a very disciplined group, and I am very proud of it,' she says with a defiant edge."

Rove and the Clintons have circled each other warily these past eight years, exhibiting a mix of grudging respect and deep bitterness as the central, if competing, political strategists of their era. Rove singled out Hillary Clinton in interviews in the past few days, predicting she will win the Democratic nomination and be a tough opponent in the fall of 2008.
>>>>

The Clintons recognize the skill Rove has brought to politics and admire his craft, if not his ideology. Just days after the November 2004 election, Bill Clinton pulled Rove aside at the dedication of the William J. Clinton Presidential Library in Arkansas. "Hey, you did a marvelous job, it was just marvelous what you did," Clinton told Rove, according to the book "The Way to Win: Taking the White House in 2008," by John F. Harris and Mark Halperin. "I want to get you down to the library. I want to talk politics with you. You just did an incredible job, and I'd like to really get together with you and I think we could have a great conversation."
>>>>>>

[Jakes Progress]

100. So far off from reality

that you can't even see the ground. Bloated on a meal of MSM drivel and Hillary Hate. If you are the future of the Democratic Party then we are surely SOL.

[blm]

104. Baloney - BCCI report didn't deep-six itself in the 90s. Clinton protected Poppy Bush and

his cronies.

He protected them on all the outstanding matters in IranContra, Iraqgate, BCCI and CIA drugrunning - just as Poppy Bush and Jackson Stephens needed. Protected so BushInc can use the 90s to strengthen and return to power in 2000. The whole lot of Bush thugs should have been in jail by the end of 1994 and instead Congress was readying to turn over the keys to Capitol Hill to the GOP and the Bushboy was planning his run for president in 2000.


Clintons protect the Bushes - they always have and always will and you won't find one quote from Rove complaining about THAT.

[Jakes Progress]

106. Of all the tin-foil-hat conspiracy theories out there

this one is a beaut. So according to your deep research, the Clintons and the Bushes are part of some secret cabal to control American minds. Bill didn't really beat the pants off of Poppy back in '92. George Sr. just wanted to retire. And then, even though the animosity between the two Georges is well documented, Sr. gave Jr. the white house. Sounds like you've got a book deal there. Throw in some Bilderburger and alien landings and you can make some dough.

Biggest trouble is that if Rove and the neocons wanted Hillary to win, she probably would. All the MSM lies and deceptions that so many Democrats are spreading for Rove about Hillary would be stories about Barack. DU would be full of people who had the real story about how Barack was just a Rove agent. The point of the OP is that people have let RoveCo sell them a bill of goods on Hillary. Now they will begin selling a bill of goods on Barack. If we don't stop this stupid repeating of GOP story lines on our own so that we can get back together, the stories they make up about Barack will be what half the country believes in the Fall. Don't spread Rove's Hillary lies and then complain about the Barack lies.

[blm]

107. You don't know what you're talking about. Bush1 expected to be impeached after the release

of Dec 1992 BCCI report that also would have exposed his cronies Jackson Stephens, Dubai and Saudi royals, AQ Khan and many others.

Jackson Stephens underwrote Clinton's 1992 primary. The BCCI report and its many outstanding matters didn't deep-six itself throughout the 90s, did it?

You are welcome to explain - use Bill's book if you want to. He curiously never mentions BCCI even ONE TIME in his book, though. Odd considering that he was handed that report AND the list of outstanding matters that required further scrutiny and cooperation, especially since Bush1 STONEWALLED investigations as much as possible.

You would think a Dem president who came into office thanks to all those scandals of Poppy Bush would have FACILITATED the access to those long sought documents, and instead he FACILITATED the protection of BushInc's secrecy and privilege.

Try reading the actual HISTORIC RECORD and try figuring out what DID happen to the matters in that report.

[Jakes Progress]

109. One man's historic record

is a thinking man's paranoid rant.

[McCamy Taylor]

81. Like Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid with no impeachment. Jay Rockefeller with telecom immunity?

Reid and Pelosi are the ones who will not impeach. The Senate Intelligence Committee voted for Teleciom Immunity. What about Jay Rockefeller? How about directing the anger at them. Oh, wait, they support Obama. So, you can not do that. They may even manage to save their jobs by supporting Obama, even though they have not done the will of the people.

I am more angry at Reid, Pelosi and Rockefeller for the way that they have facilitated the war and the torture and the spying this last year and a half than I am at Clinton.

Where is your outrage at these Obama supporters?

[blm]

94. Clintons have been protecting BushInc for DECADES and weakened our party as they did it.

.

[Jakes Progress]

111. Look there's a signpost up ahead.

"There is a fifth dimension, beyond that which is known to man. It is a dimension as vast as space… and as timeless as infinity. It is the middle ground between light and shadow, between science and superstition… and it lies between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge. This is the dimension of imagination. It is an area which we call… the twilight zone." –

[Jakes Progress]

50. Reminds me of the Don McLean song, Vincent.

Last verse.


Now I think I know what you tried to say to me,
How you suffered for your sanity,
How you tried to set them free.
They would not listen, they're not listening still.
Perhaps they never will...

[Ztarbod]

51. You are absolutely correct, I have not met her and

I have heard her say that because of voter's lack of knowledge regarding her the super delegates, who do know her, should select the party's nominee.
I think she is wrong.

[frickaline]

52. So if Hillary concedes this nomination, will we ever see you post again?

just curious ...

[McCamy Taylor]

54. Read my journals and figure it out for yourself.

[Deep13]

53. "You Have Never Met Her."

*Ahem.*



:evilgrin:

Yeah, I know I only met her briefly (twice!) I appreciate your remarks, but there is no sense trying to talk historical perspective to this crowd. They are already convinced for no particular reason that St. Obama is the right hand of God. Anyone who gets in his way must necessarily be evil.

[Lilith Velkor]

56. "no one did anything about Cambodia"

Actually, Vietnam did.

Otherwise, excellent post, as usual. Keep driving them freepers nuts! :toast:

[McCamy Taylor]

57. IN Nov. 2007 I wrote a DU journal "WARNING! HIllaryis the B Word is the Gore is a Liar of 2008"

Here is a link to the journal which I wrote last fall:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3720195&mesg_id=3720195

WARNING! Hillary is the B Word is the “Gore is a Liar” of 2008

Today the RNC officially unveiled if official 2008 presidential election strategy. Taking a page from the 2000 and 2004 elections, they are not going to focus on the issues, since issues like Iraq and Global Warming and Health Care and the Deficit will kill them in November. They are going to base their campaign on three little words that their toadies in the corporate media will repeat and elaborate on and allude to throughout the rest of the campaign, unless Democrats put a stop to it now.

snip

However, today’s attack at a McCain meeting qualifies as the official unveiling, since it is the first time that a woman (the RNC selected their man well) has stood up on national TV (all the news networks made sure of that---reporting on an “outrage” is such a clever way of propagating an outrage) and uttered the word in a room full of chuckling Republicans. The only thing that we, as Democrats can be grateful for is the writers’ strike, which will keep Letterman, Leno, Stewart, SNL and the rest from repeating the clip over and over and over again. (This was why I objected to the SNL characterization of Hillary in a bride’s outfit as a witch. For about a year, I have detected a tendency in the mainstream media to lay the groundwork for the Hillary is the B Word campaign. Stuff like the SNL sketch feeds into the national myth.)

snip

Those of us who remember “Gore is a liar” know where this is going. The members of the press whose bosses want something from a Republican administration---relaxed media ownership rules of the type which FCC Chair Martin has just proposed to the benefit of News Corp, the Tribune Company and probably a few others, or maybe an upcoming merger that will create a mega-monopoly---will start attaching adjectives to Hillary like “shrill”, “cold”, “impersonal”. Her “lack of warmth” will be an issue (as if Rudy exudes warm fuzzies). News Corp will pay some old girl friend of Bill’s to say that he complained that Hilary did not give him the love and support he needed at home. She wasn’t “woman” enough for him.

This activity will step up exponentially after the nominating convention. The RNC does not want to tip its hand too soon, and risk throwing the nomination towards one of her competitors, like Edwards.

If you have read my four part journal "The Press v. Hillary Clinton" you know that the corporate media attacks on the Democratic candidate did accelerate as the Iowa primary neared. She was accused by MSM pundits of being a cheater, liar, backstabber, infant murderer, Nixonian operative, multiple personality disorder Sybil, lesbian, war criminal, solely responsible for the War in Iraq. This does not even count the Obama campaign's opportunistic use of the MSM crusade against Clinton to further its own ambitions through the use of the "Race Memo"--which the MSM seized upon eagerly as more "proof" that Clinton was an evil witch queen who would stop at nothing...

... to deprive herself of votes?

This type of oppo is what Lee Atwater did best. Or worst. Frame a candidate the way you want the public to see him. You have to start early, before the voters have a clear picture of who it is they are being asked to vote for. With someone like Clinton, who is well known, you can not change the voter's opinions overnight, especially not Democratic voters. For this was to be a replay of the 1972, RNC interference in the Democratic Primary, designed to divide and conquer the opposition party by splitting the base between two candidates, Obama and Clinton by using the Pat Buchanan strategy, the use of attacks against one Democrat--Obama that appear to come from another Democrat--Clinton. For it to work, Clinton had to look like a dirty, cheating bitch. The press had to declare every dirty trick by Drudge, Fox, the Moonies, Bob Novak a Clinton dirty trick. And Obama had to respond to each right wing attack as if it was a Clinton dirty trick.

Why does any of this matter? Because the Democratic front runners in this race have had nearly identical stands on the issues, making this a personality contest (apologies to those who are voting on the issues. I am sure that some people are, but the majority of Democrats are not and it is the majority that determines who wins and loses in a Democracy.)

Recall how the Democrats had a wealth of great candidates last year in the debates and how hard it was to pick from among them? Well, we eventually did begin to narrow the field.

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/669/primary-preview-dynamics-differ-for-the-two-parties-in-early-races

With the first votes of the 2008 presidential election soon to be cast in the early-decision states, the likely outcome of these contests is more in doubt than in any election cycle in recent history. For the Democratic candidates, the decisive factors are personal and tactical.

snip

In Iowa, the Democratic race may well hinge on a generation gap that has gotten much less attention thus far than has the gender gap. December polls by ABC/ Washington Post and Newsweek showed Barack Obama not only catching up with Hillary Clinton, but pulling slightly ahead among likely caucus goers. But the internals of the polls suggest that Obama's lead is indeed a fragile one. In the Newsweek poll, the Illinois senator tops his New York rival by a wide margin among voters who will "probably" vote (40% to 27%), but among those who say that they will "definitely vote" the race is even (31% vs. 32%).

This gap reflects a pattern apparent in both December polls. Obama runs far better among younger voters, who turn out less reliably than older voters. In the Newsweek poll Obama has a 25-percentage point lead among those less than 50 years of age, while Hillary leads by 15 points among those ages 50 and older -- a spread wider than the gender gap recorded in Iowa.

For Obama and Clinton -- as well as for John Edwards, who is in striking distance of the front runners in most polls -- preferences and enthusiasm for the candidates are not particularly linked to judgments about which candidate comes closer to the voter's position on the issues. The pluses and minuses are personal attributes: Hillary's experience, electability, and image as a strong leader appeal to her older and somewhat more conservative supporters. Obama's likeability, compassion and potential to effect change are his strong points with his younger, somewhat more liberal backers in Iowa.

The Democratic race in Iowa is likely to hinge on how well the campaigns can motivate their potential backers to turn out for the complicated and time-consuming caucuses.

The RNC via the corporate media and the Obama camp via the bloggo-sphere and the left leaning media mounted a very successful campaign against Clinton's personality (as opposed to the issues--one poll done in late February showed that while Dems by about 40% did not approve of her war vote this did not influence their opinion of her) as I describe in the "The Press v. Hillary Clinton" journals resulting in these findings from March, 2008

http://news.yahoo.com/s/cq/20080328/pl_cq_politics/politics2693383

But one race Obama is winning by the numbers is the favorability race whether the measure is positive/negative reactions to the two, or traits that voters like or dislike about each.

snip

- Obama bests Clinton among Democratic voters by margins of 15 percent to 20 percent on the traits of being "down to earth," "inspiring" and "honest," according to Pew. More Democrats think Clinton is "phony" and "hard to like" than they do about Obama.

- Pew said the things Democrats most dislike about Clinton are her personality, the idea that she has "too much baggage," and that she is too ambitious.

Here is a more recent report from Pew

http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=407

On the other hand, views of Hillary Clinton among white Democratic voters are more influenced by perceptions that she is phony than by any other trait or emotion tested. But saying that Clinton makes them feel proud and hopeful also are significant predictors of how these voters rate her. Interestingly, while sizable minorities of white Democratic voters say Clinton is hard-to-like (43%), this opinion does not have a significant impact on her favorability ratings.

Also note that another MSM Big Lie is still having an effect, despite the Rev. Wright story which should have at least convinced everyone that Obama is a Christian.

One-in-ten voters believe that Barack Obama is Muslim; 14% of Republicans, 10% of Democrats and 8% of independents think he is Muslim.

Anyone who says that Clinton is responsible for the high numbers of people who think that Obama is a Muslim is blinded by anti-Hillary hatred or an RNC mole. See my three part journal "The Press v. Barack Obama" for the ongoing MSM Big Lie Barack is a Muslim . The only time the press reports on the right wing planted stories like the Drudge photo it is careful to say that they are false and that Clinton is a lying bitch for pointing a gun to the head of a right wing site and making it do it. I posted that last statistic to show how successful the media whores can be at making people believe lies.

Q: Why do so many Americans continue to believe that Dick Cheney when he says that Sadaam was behind the WTC attacks on 9/11 and that Iraq had WMD?

A: If you follow the logic of some people posting at Democratic Underground, you would say it is because Cheney is telling the truth. People in America are too smart to be fooled by MSM lies.

Q: Why can't we just toss Clinton in the trash as "used goods" and start over with a fresh Democratic candidate that has not been media slimed?

A: In the short term, this will alienate the voters who have flocked to her ever since the Media fatwa began. And I am not talking about the "Dixiecrats" someone conjured up last night in an attempt to claim that Clinton's votes---half of Democratic votes--- are illegitimate. "Dixiecrats" ceased to exist twenty-five years ago. Now, they are all Republicans.

Keith Olbermann, Chris Matthews, the left wingers and right wingers who have attacked her on personality issues did not foresee that the appearance of a Big Brother vendetta against a Democrat would catch the interest of a very hard core group of Democrats. It is funny to see people dismiss the "over 60" crowd as a bunch of geriatric flag wavers who cling to their Geritol and Depends. Angela Davis is over 60. Rev. Wright is over 60. Louis Farrakhan is over 60. Almost everyone who burned a draft card in 1968 is 60 or will turn 60 soon. And most of them are Democrats. These people were glued to their television sets during the Watergate hearings. They do not trust the government. They do not trust the press. When they see the press attack a candidate, they think to themselves I wonder what the system is so afraid of. Since I was a politically active 14 year old in 1973, I was reading Sisterhood is Powerful and The Autobiography of Frederick Douglas and I was also glued to the television set that summer. That is why at 49, I react like the 60 somethings in the Democratic Party. When I see the press move like a pack of wolves, I rush to defend their target, because I saw what they did during the Nixon years. From the left and the right. The system is the system, whether is calls itself liberal or conservative. It all feeds at the same corporate trough.

If the Democratic Party alienates the activist base---the coalition of poor and people who work on poverty issues and Latinos who have traditionally been active fighters for economic justice and older Democrats who still remember what the stakes are and women who struggle each day to juggle motherhood and low wage jobs in a world that denigrates their efforts---then the activist base will conclude what Gore Vidal has already concluded The Democrats and the Republicans both suck up to the same corporate interests. Why should I even bother coming out to vote?

Is it fair that the activist base is embracing Clinton because she is the victim of a MSM crusade? Not really. But then African-Americans are embracing Obama because he is half European American and half African-American and can win. There is no fair in primary politics. There just is voting demographics. As long as Clinton continues to persevere against all odds, the base which loves a fighter will love her. So people who attack her on character are only proving the maxim "That which does not kill me makes me stronger." This is not a dirty trick, because it is not a dirty trick not to give in to a corporate media fatwa. It is bravery. It is standing up for what it is right.

[NashVegas]

58. You Know What, Though?

I could have taken it from Repukes. I was kinda prepared for it to come from them. Not from Dems.

[McCamy Taylor]

84. Dem promaries have always been a cat fight just don't like the RNC interference a la 1972 CREEP.

It is soooo blatant. And that shit Gary Hart pulled about the "final rule". What crap! Dems have always had vigorous debate. They just haven't gotten the MSM to call every campaign ad that their opponent runs "SIDS" or "a knife in the back" or "Nixonian".

The MSM has reached a new low this election.

[ShortnFiery]

61. I don't want to meet Hillary Clinton. In fact, I hope that she is sent packing back to NY State and

fades into relative obscurity from the National Media. :shrug:

[speedoo]

62. I don't have to meet her to know her.

She's my Senator, so I followed her activity in the Senate closely.

I know her as a coward and a dishonest person. Because she supported the IWR only to make herself a better presidential candidate. She calculated what she thought would be the benefit, ignoring the NIE and the potential disaster this was has turned out to be.

I know her well enough.

[kwenu]

64. I've met her. Twice. She needs to quit. NOW!!!!!!

[sss1977]

65. so?

I don't claim to know her. I just disagree with her seemingly neverending stream of poor decisions.

[MessiahRp]

66. To meet her in person is to be pandered to...

It's her votes and actions that will and should define her. When given a chance to have an honorable primary with an honorable opponent she showed with her actions that she believes in the Republican way of doing things.

Being in her presence only allows her to pander to you and tell you what you want to hear. It's when she gets back to Washington or what she chooses to do behind the scenes that show who she really is.

And voters rejected who she really is.

Rp

[Arugula Latte]

69. So she has two personalities? Why isn't she just genuine?

The clips I've seen show a woman full of arrogance and a sense of entitlement. A woman who whines and complains. A woman who aligns herself with the Republican candidate against a member of her own party. A woman who lies and has no explanation for her lie (sniper fire?!?!) A woman who scolds Obama and the American people. I woman who I used to like and defend (in the 90s) who has become unrecognizable to me.

So, are you saying that that Hillary isn't the real Hillary? It's just some unappealing actress playing the role?

[McCamy Taylor]

82. "The clips I've been shown"....

From V for Vendetta

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7i8b7YwMWhs

You have always been afraid of Hillary. She has always been an enemy of the people.

[Arugula Latte]

102. The camera doesn't lie. I heard the words come out of her own mouth.

She aligned herself with McCain and spewed racist crap. There's no justification for it. That was Hillary Clinton saying those words.

[Jakes Progress]

110. The camera lies all the time.

Ever used the edit feature on any of a number of movie formating software packages. I can select, delete, blend, blur, and just simple decide what parts of which few seconds out of hours you get to see. All I have to do is be an MSM editor. The did it to Hillary. The did it to Wright. Now they are going to do it to Obama. Learn how you are being led and they can't do it anymore. You don't think those magicians really sawed a woman in half, do you?

[katerinasmommy]

71. All I need to know about her is that she thinks Black people don't work hard

"I have a much broader base to build a winning coalition on," she said in an interview with USA TODAY. As evidence, Clinton cited an Associated Press article "that found how Sen. Obama's support among working, hard-working Americans, white Americans, is weakening again, and how whites in both states who had not completed college were supporting me."

"There's a pattern emerging here," she said

working, hard working Americans, white Americans

[McCamy Taylor]

83. No, she thinks that hard working African-Americans are a different demographic

who respond to different messages as voters, because they have different concerns. And she is correct. Just as hard working Latinos are a different demographic. And hard working women are a different demographic.

She is trying to avoid using the pejorative term "Reagan Democrats" which hardly applies anymore since so many of these people were not even old enough to vote when Reagan was alive.

Obama said that we wants unity and yet his surrogates have manufactured this divisive issue that calls a part of the Democratic base that did not vote for Kerry or Gore because they were perceived of as out of touch with the needs of the working class "racists". Pardon me, but I did not know that Kerry or Gore were Black.

Hillary uses the term "hard working" because "working class" sounds elitist and snobbish to the working class. Sort of like someone going up to a Black person and saying "Excuse me, Negro".

[katerinasmommy]

86. I haven't heard

Obama call anyone a racist, even when he might have been justified. I have heard the Clintons, over and over again, point out race. In fact, that is now the reason they claim not to nominate Obama. They would rather win with racists than win honorably. I'm not claiming that everyone that votes for her is a racist. That is demonstrably untrue. However, it IS true that many whites are voting for her based on race. And not in a good way. I think that many blacks are voting for Obama because of his race yes, but I think it's mostly a point of great pride. (Though I am not discounting the occasional Farrakhan like idiot, I do think it's rare) With the whites that vote on race, it's something far uglier and she welcomes it even if she might decry it publically, and furthermore she continues to play on it. You seem like a smart person. How you can't see that I don't understand.

[urgk]

115. Boy oh boy oh boy...

You just don't understand. If McCamy *says* Obama has shouted racism, then it *must* be true. If she *says* the mainstream media is biased against Hillary, despite the fact that they've shown months of every manufactured criticism against Obama from Wright to lapel pins to "inexperienced" then it *must* be true. If she says we should ignore the distaste we feel when we see video if Hillary because we haven't met her in person, it must be true. If she says that we have only been misled to believe that Hillary, Mark Penn and Co. have in no way run an underhanded, disingenuous race then it must be true.

[DFW]

72. All politicians put on a show when the cameras are on

If they are under public scrutiny and/or the cameras are on, they know
that it will be on youtube forever. Ever since "Macaca" brought George
Allen out of the US Senate, that has been a fact of political life.

When the cameras are turned off, of course there is a change. There always
is when pressure is off.

There is exactly ONE politician I know who never changes who he is, on camera
or off. He once ran for president and the media crucified him. His name is Howard
Dean, and unfortunately for all of us, he will never be president.

[ecstatic]

73. I know enough. She is a liar and a race baiter

I don't wish to learn anymore.

[democrank]

78. I never met Senator Clinton, but

here`s what I know....She enabled George Bush to invade Iraq, which was the biggest foreign policy disaster in the history of the United States.

[eridani]

85. I've heard that people who have met her in person find her delightful

Have no reason to disbelieve that at all. However, the REPUKE FRAMING that she is using in her campaign is still harming any chance she might have as the nominee as well as Obama. I don't know why a basically good person would choose to do that, but sometimes good people do bad things. That's how it is.

[Chalco]

89. And...how about her record...

On children

<http://clinton.senate.gov/issues/children/>

On the economy

<http://clinton.senate.gov/issues/economy/>

On veterans

<http://clinton.senate.gov/issues/veterans/>

On health

<http://clinton.senate.gov/issues/health/>

On national security

<http://clinton.senate.gov/issues/nationalsecurity/>

On civil and constitutional rights

<http://clinton.senate.gov/issues/civil/>

On women

<http://clinton.senate.gov/issues/women/>

On election reform

<http://clinton.senate.gov/issues/election/>



Obama's record? Prove it's better. Go ahead. Prove it. I dare you.

[Myrina]

92. Yes, actually I have ...

... while I certainly don't "know" her well enough to claim we're BFF's or even that she'd recognize me waiting in line at Starbucks, I familiarized myself with the Clintons starting as a campaign volunteer in 1992 and ultimately met her (thanks to some connections I had in college) in 1995 ... and well, I didn't then - and don't now - like her. Sorry.

[shenmue]

95. A-f***ing-men. She could come up with the cure for cancer and they'd shit on her.

They hate her. They hate, hate, hate her. Anyone who says the media is soft to her either never lived through the 1990s, or is on crack. Period.

[Adelante]

97. Not anymore

I met Hillary Clinton several times in the 90s, when I was a staunch defender. Not anymore.

[Brazenly Liberal]

98. Actually, I HAVE met her

She's charming, funny, very smart, someone I'd love to sit up all night gabbing and playing Scrabble with. However, she still is not my candidate for President. Being someone I like personally is not a major qualification for being elected President. If it was, my sister would have been running the country years ago.

If she becomes the nominee, I will vote for her. Refusing to vote if the "wrong" person gets the nom is stupid and counterproductive. Having a hissy fit and voting McCain is stupid, counterproductive and evil.

You thought that you knew Hillary Clinton and you were so surprised when you discovered that you did not know her at all about--let me check my watch---five months ago.

Wrong. I discovered I didn't know her at all when she got into the Senate and revealed herself as holding positions - or being willing to support positions - much too far to the right for my tastes.

[Jakes Progress]

101. They are out in full force today.

Just as it seemed DU could heal, the haters started vomiting on any thread of unity. I'm fairly new here but many seem to have a good opinion of the guy who owns the site. It seems pretty obvious that he and his admins were willing to let a certain amount of Hillary Hate into the threads, but they seemed to draw a line of some kind. What are the chances that they could identify the paid neocon flamers who are still kicking up the dirt? I mean we can usually tell the dewy-eyed 16 year old idealists who have bought the MSM line since they only started following politics recently. Hell, I was one of them many years ago. But the obvious candidates for troll would be the nasty posts and replies that only serve to keep the division going.

[noel711]

103. Well, I never met Jesus, just heard 'soundbytes' from preachers,

and read a lot of articles and stories about him from the Bible
and from books, but it was enough to know that Jesus....

Never ever referred to folks as 'us vs. them.'

Never played the 'poor little me' game.

Never blamed his accusers of anti-semitism.

Never 'shamed' his opponants, but asked for forgiveness for them.

Never told people "I can fight for you." But he did it anyway.

This is not about me believing everything the press says.
Lord knows I think they're full of crap.

I may be what considered 'working class,' in some markets, but I'm not a drone.
This is about me being an intelligent woman who IS a true feminist,
and I can read and learn and judge for myself, either on JEsus' veracity,
or Hillary Clinton's trustworthiness.

I think I'll stick to Jesus.

[urgk]

113. You know who else was amicable in person?

Ted Bundy.

People couldn't talk enough about what a charmer he was. Not that I mean to say that Hillary Clinton is the moral equivalent of Ted Bundy. I mean, Ted Bundy killed, by some estimates, nearly 100 women. Hillary has only threatened to "obliterate" 35 million (total population of Iran -- 70 million).

Just a thought.