McCain's Vietnam 'experience': Out of Bounds or In Play?

[NewHampshireDem]

As a follow up and to spur some further discussion of our real enemy ...

We've all heard the whispers about 'crazy' John McCain. He was the Manchurian Candidate before anyone thought about implying Obama was a Muslim.

I assume we're going to run on the anger issue--it's part of this man's clearly defective character--but is it going too far to suggest that his time in Vietnam as a POW irreparably damaged him?

[Eagle_Eye]

1. It would be to McCain's advantage if he kept his record out of play

The events of his military service are questionable at best. McCain should be the one not wanting questions asked about his time in the Navy.

[PoliticalAmazon]

45. Any critiism of McCain's military service will be counterproductive....

Talking about his lack of support for veternas, however, is very germaine, and a good way to get the question of his military service into the game without actually bringing it up ourselves. Once McCain is criticized for his support of veterans, the voter will flash to McCain's own history of being a POW in Vietnam, and will wonder why he is so callous towards our veterans.

[Eagle_Eye]

63. McCain is callous like a Russian - "Everyone should suffer for the mother country."

Everyone should suffer except for rich republicans and defense contractors.

[PoliticalAmazon]

71. Oh, I realize McCain is an asshat, but it would be unwise for Obama...

...to paint himself as the the one criticizing McCain's military career. Many Americans regard McCain as a bonafide war hero, and don't know the finer points about his history supporting veterans since then.

Just my opinion. Your mileage may vary.

[otohara]

2. His Support For Vietnam & Iraq

make him unqualified to be Commander in Chief.

[pwb]

3. In play,

But not yet.

[NewHampshireDem]

6. Could you elaborate, please

I also notice your avatar. I don't know what it means to you, but I assume that it's an important issue for you.

And, lest I be misunderstood, I'm not the kind of person who believes that all Vietnam vets are crazy, alcoholics, or homeless. And, on the other hand, I see that there are issues around the treatment of veterans that need to be brought into the light, issues that most Dems are aware of but that the general public is oblivious to, thanks to our media.

[pwb]

14. McCain does not believe in my avatar.

He has blocked POW-MIA issues in the senate and has had all POW-MIA information from the Vietnamese classified forever. He is afraid, because he is not the hero America thinks he is.

He also opposes the new G. I. bill that our veterans deserve.

If you are interested you can Google ,Ace McCain. and read what his own right wing rag said about him.

[NewHampshireDem]

30. Thank you

The GI Bill thing is something that he should be hammered again and again and again on ... while at the same time, I see the danger in Obama, a young black man, slamming 'war hero' McCain on veterans issues. (Again, the Mary Cheney moment.) Thank god we have Jim Webb--I wish we could have him on TV 24/7 right now, rather than all of this ... this foolishness we are going through.

[Lyric]

4. If we attack his service record, we will look no better than the Swiftboaters.

Unless we want to piss off a LOT of people that we need at the polls in November, we should tread VERY carefully around McCain's service record. Seriously.

[PoliticalAmazon]

46. ITA, and I've already seen it....

....On one of the news shows, they showed a videoclip (comedy) that showed Obama visiting nursing homes and they cut in a picture of McCain sitting at a folding table with his mouth hanging open. Clearly they meant to say that OBama was one of the residents in the nursing home.

Immediately the female host, who I think is probably an Obama supporter, said "Oh, that's mean!" She said it at least three times.

[AllentownJake]

5. I don't want to fight Vietnam again

My parents were vets (both of them) and regardless he went there when others didn't.

I'd rather not question a man's service to this country in a foriegn war whether the war was right or wrong. I didn't like it when they did it to Kerry. Flame me.

[wileedog]

10. I agree

We have enough ammo with tying him to Bush, no real need to go there.

Obama must be salivating at the idea of a policy debate right about now.

[NewHampshireDem]

11. Why would anyone flame you for that?

I agree that one of the mistakes Kerry made in 2004 was to turn the election into a referendum on Vietnam. His salute and 'reporting for duty' were one of the most tone-deaf moments of a tone-deaf campaign.

Obama also risks a 'Mary Cheney' moment, doesn't he. I'd hate to see the issue of Iraq War veterans raised and Obama's response be anything like how Kerry responded to the question about gay rights. I believe that may have been the moment he lost the election.

[anigbrowl]

36. I'm with you on that. I respect his service

going after his service record would be gutter and a losing strategy. He went there because he had a duty to do so. Let's not forget that everyone who fought in Viet Nam was ordered there by the government of the day - and a Democratic one, more's the pity. I want to fight and win the election on the issues of 2008, not 1968.

To attack his service would be a huge gift to the GOP, and perpetuate andother 4 years of these idiot 'culture wars' that they've has us locked into for so long.

[RichardRay]

7. OOB - but possible effects aren't...

Can't talk about what happened to him in anything but an honorable and respectful way. But, the effects of that time that still haunt him will make him somewhat unstable in the final run up to the election. Senator Obama is a young, fit, resilient man, he run McCain into the ground by setting a blistering campaign pace. A tired McCain will make some pretty serious gaffes.

[AZ Criminal JD]

28. The candidates don't campaign together.

Neither can set the pace for the other. Actually Obama has been the one who has taken a vacation during this primary season. He went to the Bahamas. Also he has been going back to Chicago frequently for "rest". Hmmm.

[RichardRay]

33. Of course one can set the pace....

If Obama keeps up a relentless series of attacks and challenges McCain can either respond to each in a timely fashion or appear weak. He's kept the pace quite nicely during the primaries, and will continue to do so during the GE, I'm confident.

Obama understands 'sente' & 'gote' - of course he can't hold sente all the time, no one can, but he understands the idea. By keeping McCain in gote he forces McCain to respond and wears him down.

[thoughtcrime1984]

8. It'll sour many swing voters at the polls, we can win without stooping to that

OUT OF BOUNDS, is my call.

[BenDavid]

9. In play, just like obama's drug use is in play as well. WHY? because

this is part of the person and you cannot take one part of a life and say this is the person. All parts make the whole.

[OmahaBlueDog]

12. "We respect, value, and admire John McCain's valiant military service"

...which was almost half a century ago, when John McCain was a much younger man.

[Sparkly]

13. WhatEVER works.

I agree with those who say it has to be handled with care, no matter what.

But manners or honor for their own sake? Nope -- whatever wins, period.

[backscatter712]

15. I think people should know about Crash McCain's service record.

He lost what, five aircraft when he was a naval aviator?

[B Calm]

16. How many fighter jets did he crash?

[Ichingcarpenter]

31. he crashed 5 jets but I think the more important issue

Is his mental and physical health because of his Vietnamese experience.

That is something that can be addressed fairly. No one escapes the rest of their life
from Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome, let alone being broken by torture.

Obama shouldn't touch it, but it doesn't mean the net roots shouldn't.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

64. Three. Or Twenty-three.

If the carrier fire was his fault, he destroyed 23. If it wasn't his fault, then he crashed 3. And lost one more in the carrier fire.

Finally, he had one shot down, so I wouldn't say that he crashed that one.

[crankychatter]

17. no - I wouldn't care if he was a dental assistant in Seoul - back the f**k up - n/t

.

[me b zola]

18. Out of bounds

[cliffordu]

19. Get off the POW/Vietnam shit.

You wanna energize the repug base??

Take a dump on his military record.

He is so completely incapable of being elected without it, we don't need it..

Just today his rich wife said she'd not release her tax records......use that.

[NewHampshireDem]

21. Easy, easy ...

I respect the fact that Vietnam is still a difficult issue for a lot of people.

As I pointed out in my OP, I believe it was the Repubs who first raised the POW issue, back in 2000--and IIRC, it was raised by the likes of Antrhax Annie et al this time around.

However, the way Bush ran against McCain may have been what helped flip NH in 2004. McCain has a lot of support there--I think it's the whole 'Maverick' thing, which is how a lot of NH Repubs see themselves.

[Bluerthanblue]

32. his treatment of his first wife- who was seriously injured in an

accident while- being single Mom- (because he made the decision to 'stay with his men' in prison) is evidence of his true character however.

She was in rehabilitation for years, and ended up disabled. She was no longer the 'pretty young thing' he'd left behind- and so, he left her behind. She doesn't fault him for his infatuation and affair with the wealthy, young poster girl 'Cindy'- but that says more about his ex's character than it does about his selfish abandonment.

How a person treats their spouse, says a lot about who they really are.

McCains past isn't as clean and pretty as he'd like everyone to think.

Also- If McCain makes his 'service' a cornerstone of his campaign, he has to know, that it is open to examination. I don't think he really does want to go there though.

peace~

[wmbrew0206]

72. Oh, please....

McCain did not elect to "stay with his men." He was order to and had an obligation to. He didn't do it because he was having so much fun in SE Asia.

The Code of Conduct sets out who is allowed to be released and when.

The CoC states that the POW held the longest are to accept release first and then by lowest to highest rank. The Senior Responsible Officer (SRO) (the most senior officer eligible to command that is being held) is the commanding officer of all the POW's in a POW camp. He can make a determination if a POW that is severaly injured can accept release before one that has been there longer. He can also decide if a POW should be to accept release early for a justifiable reason.

McCain could not have accepted early release because his SRO would not let him. If McCain had accepted release after being told no, he would have been court marshaled.

[Bluerthanblue]

73. wow-- his

spin on this incident was very different.
Thanks for educating me-
I'd read that his father had angled his release, but that he wouldn't leave 'his men'. - :shrug: pretty sleazy manipulation on his part.
He sure is self-possessed.


peace~

[TahitiNut]

49. I'm with ya there.

(Funny how it's always the "Jodies" on the left wanting to do this shit. Strange emulation of the Insane Rambo-wannabe's on the right.)

[Hawaii Hiker]

20. In play - After what was done to John Kerry & Max Cleland, I don't

have much empathy for John McCain...

[NewHampshireDem]

22. Ah, but may that be the very reason to *not* do it?

That's the essence of what makes these issues so difficult.

[bobbert]

24. Exactly, any press that can make his service look phony will make me :)

[AllentownJake]

26. We can't become what we hate

We hated that was done to our people and it was wrong. We can't attack McCain on his service record and than claim the high road.

[NewHampshireDem]

29. High road versus white house?

Again, not taking a side on this issue, just asking a question: How low would you, Jake, go to win?

I ask because, if it's not obvious, I'm struggling with the same question myself. (And, I admit, feeling like I'm willing to go nearly as far as tripping old ladies outside the polling place.)

[anigbrowl]

40. Low road to WH means Rove ultimately wins

I don't want Obama to walk into the White House with shit on his shoes, if you know what I mean. We must lead by example, not by deception or intrigue. It's the difference between a single term and a generation of renewal. 'Win at all costs' is a right-wing idea that says power trumps principle, and if we succeeded in the GE because of that it would mean we were playing by their rules.

You know, my in-laws are from Viet Nam, and North Viet Nam at that. One of Ms Browl's grandparents was flattened by a falling bomb while he was taking his noontime nap. But they're not McCain haters. If they can let the past be the past, then so can everyone else.

[WA98296]

23. Yes, let his temper speak for itself.

[NewHampshireDem]

25. Another question: What if we had Clark or Webb on the ticket as VP?

Would that change how we could use this issue if we chose to?

[Bettie]

27. In Play

They took Kerry's record and misrepresented it in an attempt to make Mr. AWOL look better.

At that point, they lost the right to say that ANYTHING is out of bounds.

The gloves should be off now and anything and everything is on the table.

We know they'll do the same for our candidate.

[TexasObserver]

34. Best avoided. There are some swiftboat nuts who will go after it.

Go after ...

1. He's Bush's third term

2. Bad Temperment and explosively bad decisions

3. Shady dealings with Keating Five and others

4. Lack of understanding of economy or business

5. His age and the impact of that upon this ability to do the job

6. Pastor Hagee, et al.

7. His flip flops on every major issue except the war, the one he should have flipped on

8. The unfairness of his wife getting off scott free while we ship the less powerful to prisons

[moondust]

35. Absolutely in play.

Mental health is perhaps THE MOST legitimate issue for anyone who seeks command of THE MOST dangerous military weaponry on the planet.

[goodhue]

37. In play, but perhaps not to the Dems advantage

Didn't work very well with Kerry if I recall

[4themind]

38. Not necessary imo, oddly enough Clinton's Dole strategy may be best

'a good man, just not good for this job'

[ccharles000]

39. Out of bounds.

If we attack his military record the media will accuse democrats for attacking a war hero. There are so many other things to attack him on.

[mitchum]

41. He's nuts through no fault of his own

[kwenu]

42. We had a man attacked based upon what his pastor said. There are no boundaries.

[calimary]

43. IN play. ALL OF IT. NOTHING is off limits.

If they could use John Kerry's Vietnam experience against him, I say it's payback time. Especially if this guy was a cooperative POW.

It's all in HOW you do it. HOW you word it. HOW you say it. It can be done with a feather-light touch as surely as with a mallet. And it will still connect.

NOTHING should be off limits. It's ALL fodder for our use. EVERY. LAST. SCRAP. We should be doing our own opposition research. Especially if our DNC friends decide to be pushovers again, and take that ol' high road - that leads straight over a cliff.

[Kaleva]

44. out of bounds

[Quixote1818]

47. Personally I wouldn't play that card unless you have info from a Psychologist

That could totally backfire. Actually a shit load of Psychologists who voted for Bush at that.

[Hippo_Tron]

48. It's more important to focus on his dementia

He's made references to using the League of Nations, our missile defense system in Czechoslovakia, and Al Qaeda in Iran. And the election hasn't even started yet.

[Ichingcarpenter]

51. his dementia could be accelerated by his time in Nam

as a prisoner. PTSS and torture ages your brain and body.

[Hippo_Tron]

52. Doesn't matter how he got his dementia, it just matters that he has it

[Ichingcarpenter]

56. He just made an Ad saying "I'm not that old meet my mom"

Which I now name 'Dementia'.

[Jed Dilligan]

50. I use it in bars. If the guy next to me in the bar wants to talk politics,

and brings up McCain, I always say, "Great American, great service to our country, between you and me he didn't come back whole from that prison camp, I mean who would? And now he's getting pretty old, he's just not up to it mentally."

[Ichingcarpenter]

57. That's my point too

That is what needs to be look at.

[Jed Dilligan]

61. I've never run into any disagreement with it.

on edit: But I think it's better done by word of mouth than Obama or his campaign.

[oviedodem]

53. Out of bounds!

[Secret_Society]

54. He stood up for Kerry...OUT OF BOUNDS!

Let's hit him on real issues and we shouldn't have a problem

[Danger Mouse]

55. No. Let's not go there. It'd be political suicide.

[Ichingcarpenter]

58. The net roots are not the Obama campaign

Obama will stay well above it.

[Danger Mouse]

59. Agreed, but it's not a good idea for it to gain media attention..

if it does, Obama will have to denounce it.

[Ichingcarpenter]

62. He will ... I was in awe when he called for

Powers resignation. It won't stop me though unless he hires me on..... LOL

[GoesTo11]

60. Out of bounds BECAUSE it's low, regardless of whether it would work.

[foo_bar]

65. I think "conservatives" will be the ones hammering this "issue"

Not the RNC of course but the fweepers, Paulistas, minutemen and the rest tend to seize on crap like this whenever McCain does something not immediately genocidal to immigrants or foreigners in general. We might just need to sit back and watch their circular firing squad for a change.

[RazBerryBeret]

66. I think it will be a touchy subject...

but I think we need to convey the hypocrisy of a vet who votes against vet benefits.
and a vet who was tortured and still votes that torture is acceptable.

and yes, I know this will be hard to do w/out crossing the line...but I think we have one very diplomatic and gifted candidate who could pull it off..

[Vinca]

67. There's enough crazy stuff about McCain without the POW experience

being brought up. Get a few on the record (on video), first person accounts of his temper flares for starters. If anyone actually heard him use the "c" word against his wife, that would be interesting. Personally, what I think will take him out is his health care position (so-called). If it ever seeps through the dim brains of his supporters that his plan is "every man for himself," no employer insurance, that should do it. When Gomer gets a $5,000 check for a $12,000 insurance bill, gays won't be quite so threatening to him.

[Arkansas Granny]

68. Out of bounds.

It was a cowardly and despicable when people denigrated the service of John Kerry and Max Cleland and would be just as cowardly and despicable if it is done to McCain.

[eridani]

69. Out of bounds. He defended Kerry on the swiftboat crap

Dumping his wife who waited for him is in bounds, as is calling his current wife the C word in public.

[Jawja]

70. Short and sweet:

After what the Rethugs did to Max Cleland and John Kerry and their Vietnam service, YES, McCain's Vietnam experience is fair play.

[BlooInBloo]

74. Fair to criticize him based on the hypocrisy of not supporting the GI Bill and similar, though.

[SoFlaJet]

75. How did the republicans act towards John Kerry's service?

I am sick of every criticism about McCain to be started with "and while we honor his service" If it were Kerry running again and HE was an ex-POW, we all KNOW that The Manchurian Candidate would be the new catch-phrase