Analysis: "Hillary Democrats" Could Be Up For Grabs

[FVZA_Colonel]

Source: Associated Press

By NEDRA PICKLER

WASHINGTON - With the racially tinged Democratic race drawing to an awkward close, Barack Obama and John McCain face the challenge of winning over "Hillary Democrats" — the white, working-class voters who favored the former first lady over Obama's historic candidacy.

Obama and McCain clearly have set their sights on each other, a recognition of the long odds Clinton faces in trying to capture the Democratic presidential nomination. The McCain campaign figures some of her supporters might be up for grabs and won't necessarily vote Democratic in the general election in November.

"I've been saying for a year that you never count a Clinton out, but now people are laughing at me so I guess I've got to stop," McCain strategist Charlie Black said Friday. "But if you look at the blue-collar Democratic votes that Mrs. Clinton's been getting and then look at their opinions of Obama in these public polls, there's clearly an opportunity for McCain."

Clinton won more than two-thirds of the white voters without college degrees in the last three primaries — Pennsylvania, North Carolina and Indiana — according to exit polls conducted for The Associated Press and the television networks. When those Clinton supporters were asked who they would vote for in an Obama-McCain matchup, just fewer than half said they would support Obama. Three in 10 said they would vote for McCain and the rest said they wouldn't vote for either.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080509/ap_on_el_pr/hillary_democrats

[RainDog]

1. good old nedra

she never fails to try to stab democrats... you should check her bylines over the last year. She's wrong about blue collar voters. Obama has the support of blue collar white voters, too.

Hillary's ONE lead, demographically, is among democrats who are 65 and older. people on fixed incomes.

[Bumblebee]

3. Believe it at your own peril. It's not going to be pretty as far as Clinton supporters go.

Some of us are as liberal as you are but we have been utterly ostracized by both Obama supporters and the media. We will still work hard for other Dems but not for Obama. And some, more conservative and less educated, will, no doubt, vote for McCain or stay at home. As a result, I do think Obama will lose pretty big -- but now it's a moot point, isn't it? Clinton is vanquished -- isn't that more important than who will be in the WH in November?

[RainDog]

9. were you here for Dean vs. Kerry?

don't think this is so different on DU. And, as others have told me before, you are foolish if you base any decisions based upon the internet flame wars that go on here. You might also have a short campaign memory. When Hillary began her campaign, she could do no wrong in the media. I watched it. She blew this race. She had every advantage going in and she didn't have the support to win. You cannot blame Obama supporters for that.

I left DU for a while during the 2004 campaign. I was not for Kerry. I voted for him, but he wasn't my choice. To me, this is like the Dean/Kerry primary fight all over again.

Once again, the numbers that came out my my state's primary showed that Obama had the majority of 87% of the vote under 65. (Indiana - now at a statistical tie, with Clinton at less than 1%.) That majority consisted of all ages, genders, ethnicities. Indiana has a lot of blue collar voters. It has very few Af-Ams.

The WHOLE POINT is that Nedra's premise is wrong. She, the "liberal media" is misrepresenting support for Obama and again feeds the racist lies that he doesn't have support across a spectrum of voters.

that was the point of my post. She's LYING. Now, why would she try to lie in this way? Is this the "liberal media" that loves Obama? As I said before, go do some homework on her. Go to Digby and look into the archives about Nedra.

[RainDog]

12. Gallup Poll: Obama has equal support of white as did Kerry

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/5/8/123531/4221

PRINCETON, NJ -- Barack Obama's current level of support among white voters in a head-to-head matchup against John McCain is no worse than John Kerry's margin of support among whites against George W. Bush in the 2004 presidential election.

[Bumblebee]

15. Yes, and he did not attract a substantial number of Reagan Dems, and he lost...

[RainDog]

17. Ohio voter fraud investigations might disagree that he lost

Hillary has 51% negatives among the American population. The republicans have a candidate that does not appeal to their religious right extremists. You do not want to energize them to vote against Hillary; she does not inspire Republicans or libertarians to vote across ticket. How many "republicans for Hillary" movements have you seen, except for Limbaugh's operation chaos?

oh, and btw, an incumbent president has NEVER lost an election when the nation was at war. I had hoped the American people were wise enough to Bush to buck this trend with Kerry, but it didn't happen-- or maybe it did. Ohio defintely had vote tampering. However, that race is not an accurate comparison to this one.

[Jackpine Radical]

50. Give us a clean election, and Obama will win.

The Republicans have only "won" the past several elections (and held down the magnitude of their losses in '06) by sheer dint of pulling every dirty trick in the book, plus having the monolithic backing of the corporate media.

[amandabeech]

75. I don't want to cut it that close this time.

I'm an Edwards person to the core, and I'll vote for the nominee whomever that may be, but this does concern me.

I'm not sure that either of our currently active candidates will be able to win convincingly by whoever counts the votes.

[DemVet]

83. One thing I noticed about Republicans...

...is they usually don't stay home on election day. Don't think for a minute that the religious right, unhappy with McCain as they supposedly are, are going to sit this one out. Huh uh...it isn't happening. At least not around my area...and I live about 5 miles from Pat Robertson's house.

[RainDog]

19. Obama's support among whites is better than Hillary's among blacks

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/5/3/154229/3534

and, you know, I still have to say that I think it's a pipe dream to think that Hillary is going to pull white male voters away from McCain if they wouldn't vote for Obama. I don't think they would vote for either of them.

Another issue at play here is that the Democrats have registered HUGE amounts of new voters. Maybe the "reagan democrats" will have a demographic that will compete with their importance - newly energized voters who want change.

[iconicgnom]

34. Reagan is a Republican idol, not a Dem idol

"Reagan Dem" is a contradiction in terms.
You, clearly, want McCain to win if Hillary loses to Barack. That, and your notion that Dems should pander to Reagan, makes you a Republican.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/05/09/clinton-supporters-send-l_n_100979.html

[Jackpine Radical]

51. With all respect, I think you take this too far.

It is possible to be a liberal and to believe that Hillary has a better chance of winning, and therefore is the better strategic choice in November. I don't think that belief is correct, but holding it doesn't make you a Republican.

[fullofdrama]

77. Um, Kerry lost

Interestingly, you think that's good news for Obama.

[DemVet]

82. Yeah, and we all know how that turned out

[Bumblebee]

13. It is very different, and I was for Edwards anyway -- but back then there

was much less venom and more mutual respect for whoever the others were supporting. Plus it was Bush, not McCain. He is much more of a "uniter" as far as the opposition goes.

[FogCityJohn]

26. "Clinton Supporters"

(Sigh) Another threat from a Clinton supporter to sit the election out and thereby assist the Republicans in retaining the White House. I have a serious question: Is this a spontaneous sentiment among Clintonistas, or is it fostered by the candidate herself? My impression for some time has been that Clinton supporters are only that -- *Clinton* supporters, not Democratic Party supporters. This peevish stance only makes sense if you don't really care about what the Democratic Party is supposed to stand for (universal health care, ending the Iraq war, keeping the Supreme Court out of Republican hands) but only care about whether Hillary Clinton becomes president. Obviously, if you want to stay home, no one can stop you, but my question is, do you have any political principles or policies that you care about? Are you willing to see more Americans die in Iraq just because your candidate didn't win? Because those of us who have loved ones in the military who have been deployed to Iraq (and who may be deployed again) think that the stakes here are far too high for this kind of thing.

[comradebillyboy]

39. Judging by the actions of the democratic congress and

democratic party establishment, the democratic party stands for nothing and is characterized by general spinelessness and outright moral cowardice. Aside from not opposing republican mismanagement of the nation, what good thing has the democratic party done in the last 7 years? Loyalty has to be earned and Bill Clinton is the last democrat to make any real positive contribution to this country, yet I see him reviled on this site and other liberal blogs. Just what have the fucking democrats done to earn my loyalty and support? I voted for that pathetic loser, John Kerry, who didn't have the guts to contest Ohio. What clam does he have on my loyalty, why should I care who he endorses? I HOPE Obama won't be quite so bad, but I have no evidence of his virtue. IMHO he is just a very talented snake oil salesman and if he wants to get elected in the GE he will lock his obnoxious wife up in the cellar. And if he is lucky enough to win, he had better keep her locked up if he hopes for re election.

[alarimer]

62. Exactly and this is also why I no longer consider myself a Democrat.

The party has completely alienated me by having the media choose from one or another corporate whore. Both of them really, really suck. And nothing will change until we elect real progressives but these are not it. They are only marginally better than Republicans.

I may vote for Democrats on other parts of the ticket but I do not think I will participate in this Presidential election. Fuck them all. I really don't even care anymore what happens to this country. Enough voters voted to elected Bush twice (they made it close enough to steal). People are stupid in this country and get what they deserve. They will be hugely disappointed when Obama fails to change anything and takes corporate payoffs to win re-election. We will never get true universal health care and we will be in Iraq at least until the next Presidential election. Obama is lying, just like they all do. Believe him at your peril. I predict a lot of very disillusioned and disappointed people in couple of years.

[earthlover]

47. It is incomprehensible for me for a "Democrat" (so-called I guess) to favor McCain....

because Hillary did not get the nomination.

I think those voters are so blind they do not even know what Hillary Clinton has fought for all these years.

Take one issue Hillary has been consistent on...choice. Hillary has waffled and triangulated on many issues. But not on choice.

If John McCain wins, he gets to name maybe 3 Supreme Court justices in his first term. Does anyone here really believe he is going to nominate justices who want to preserve Roe v Wade? Does anyone here seriously doubt the Supreme Court would have the opportunity to take on a case that would test Roe v Wade?

A vote for McCain would be a vote to totally trash one of the consistent priciples Hillary Clinton has fought for all her life: choice. It would mean illegal abortions, determined by the states. It would be a return to an era many of us cannot remember of coat hanger abortions performed in back alleys because medical profession is outlawed to perform abortions.

And that is just a start. Think of what a 8-1 Republican Supreme Court could do to our civil liberties, those we still enjoy. Think of what it will NOT do to improve things. Think of the effects of LIFE TERMS of Byzantine Justices who would be able to play havock on the economic and other reforms a future Democratic President or Congress might enact, during the next generation....

Then rethink your support of McCain.

Are you so frigging disloyal to Hillary Clinton, and everything she believes in, to let John McCain be the guy who decides who will select the Supreme Court?

I pity you if you can do this and still call yourself a Hillary Supporter or a Democrat. You are, not a Democrat, but an (name deleted).

[melody]

59. Anyone stupid enough to vote for McCain and give us outlawed abortion and other horrors ...

Just because someone on a board somewhere huwt your widdow feewings is beyond redemption.

If YOU don't work for Obama you might as well promote the GOP. It's the same thing. And all because you didn't get your way. That is the most childish of motives.

So thank you in advance for four more years of fascism, anti-populist economic actions, the loss of abortion rights and so many other things ... thank you because the blood will be on YOUR hands.

[Gman]

70. No, it's thank you ...

for pushing a candidate that never had a chance to win in November but you and the other Obama supporters never even gave that a second thought. I guess the "change" and "unity" vapor campaign issues were overwhelming.

[melody]

71. I didn't "push" any candidate besides Edwards

I however am now working for the Democratic nominee.

As despised as Hillary is, she never had a chance.

The only Democrats who won't vote for Obama now are either closet Republicans, racist or childish as hell.

[Gman]

74. OMG!

I think I posted those very words about Dean and Nader supporters in 2004.

Deja vu all over again.

[Gman]

69. I willl not lift a finger for Obama in November

and he'll only get my vote because I vote straight party Democrat.

[melody]

72. If you won't work for Obama, you're working for the GOP

I cannot believe ... after eight hellish years of this monster we have in office ... there is some question as to whether ANY Democrat would be better than McCain.

If you think otherwise, you're NOT voting Democrat at all.

[Gman]

73. Well, you see...

I'm just going to be very, very busy. I'd really like to help but I just won't have the time.

[LordshipLadyship]

84. ironic

If you won't work for Obama, you're working for gop
If you don't wear a flag pin you're unpatriotic
If you don't have the same views as me you don't have the right to be here
If you point out Obama's flaws, and his followers ignore them, its just going with the flow
If you point out Hilary's flaws or her positives you're stupid
Do what I say or I'll attack you and mock you and paint you as being unpatrotic and un Democratic
If you don't support Obama you're racist
Hilary is fair game to mock, even though people appreciated her and supported "the Big Dawg"
Talk about "bitter"
This isn't democracy at all. This is all neocon crap, and you accused (I'm not addressing the poster, but most of his supporters, some have supported without using insults and some Hilary supporters have done the same)
Unless you find out what Obama stands for, unless you are willing to look at his flaws, then the ones who will be bitter will be the ones who supported him. I'm saying him, because right now it is looking like he will be the nom.
You cry racist, but you make fun of people with racial undertones
Obama supports a racist, and a crooked man, but that's just 'errors"
It sickens me, it really does, this has been an american idol rush to support, with little or no feeling of the facts about him, or who is around him.This forum genuinely looks like its a blur with Freepers, using insult instead of opinion, disregarding fact, making cute little names instead of debating like adults. Who are the morons now? And that is on BOTH sides. If you support your candidate why is it necessary? Oh, its fun, and laughs, but we are facing the worse time in our immediate history, and quite frankly I doubt either candidate will end the war. War is profitable for them both. Apparently BOTH Hilary and Obama are playing the race card.
I am a Hillary supporter and I am QUITE aware of what she is doing, and her flaws. You want to see Obama as president on empty promises that people have given for as long as I have voted. "Hope" "Change" "Promise" all terms out of commercials. Brand A, Brand X. You don't think that he is a typical politician. Hello, let the sleeper awaken. He IS.
I'm not here to hate you, I feel for you, because I see that it has potential to be a disaster. The general election won't be a cake walk and he won't win it on cute or intelligent or cool, or the first aa candidate. It may not be McCain who faces your opponent. Obama supports nuclear energy as Hilary does. His platforms are more or less the same as hers. He exageratted facts in his books like all candidates do. From as long as I have been in the party, candidates have looked at voters in terms of black, white, Latino, asian, etc etc it isn't racism. It's looking hard at what a person has to do to win.
When you put a candidate on a pedestal, it's a long fall and it isn't only their fall, its the nation's fall.
I will tell you here and now. If Obama is the nom and he chooses a VP that I do not support because he or she doesn't have enough issues that are important to me (liberal and progressive causes, end of the war, separation of church and state, criminal charges against Bush and the others, fixing the constitution, equality for the poor, disabled, the right for gays to marry, out of work, vets, women, *democracy* and others) then I will not vote for him. I will simply not vote. I would NEVER support a Rep neocon. Helping gop to win is GARBAGE. Take your damn guilt trip and stick it where the sun don't shine. Helping a gop to win just may be electing Obama, because the reps will eat him alive. I don't think he will lose, because people are tired of Republicans, but he isn't going to get by on being the american idol. Trust me, the republicans are Simon Cowell on steroids.
Listen carefully to me. I am not a Democrat for nothing. Do not tell me whom to cast my vote for. Do not threaten me, do not mock people I admire (like John Edwards) do not paint me into a corner. I am a liberal democrat, and I don't need either the neocons or some of you Obama supporters who won't even LOOK at some of what he's done. Those are the tactics of freepers, and its chilling to see you use them. Of course I know trolls have invaded. However some of you have imo gotten to that status. Sit back and look at what you are doing. You're attacking your very comrades. You're tearing other posters to pieces. It isn't necessary, its underhanded, its NEOCON.

Don't mess with me. Believe me, nobody is going to define MY patriotism. I do NOT like Obama,he clearly has played the race card and calling me names, mocking me, saying I am not democratic, is not helping. I don't limit it to only his supporters either.

Go ahead and put me on ignore. Anyone who isn't adult enough to look HARD at the possible nom is not anyone I care about, dreaming isn't going to get us anywhere. Voting a person in because they can speak well, have cute little slogans, can throw away catch words, is intelligent, is folksy, is just like us is what got us a man named BUSH. He promised all sorts of crap, too. As I am typing, other young men and women are paying the price for people believing in empty promises. They're being blown to pieces.

You ask why OPs don't respond. Why the hell should they, when they know you all are going to gang up on them. If you think its justifiable, for whatever reason, fine. Karma is a bitch.

and don't whine that my one vote withdrawn if he doesn't choose a damn good VP will lose him the election. If he does as well as you say he will, he won't need mine. I have had it with him (and in a lot of areas, I have had it with Hilary) Our choices suck. If Obama gives me reason to support him by choosing a good VP, then I will support him.

[cornermouse]

4. Yeah, but those people on fixed incomes, 65 and older

consistently vote. And Obama has not given them reason to vote for him.

[RainDog]

14. that wasn't my point

my point was Hillary strength is not among WHITE working class people. it's among those on fixed-incomes.

And, yes, we as a nation need to make sure our grandparents are taken care of b/c inflation at the grocery store is very real. I know this when I go buy a gallon of milk - I have two sons. Believe me, I know this.

No one that I know of wants to harm ppl on fixed incomes - not on the democratic side, at least.

[Neecy]

61. this isn't true

My 72 year old mother is a huge Obama supporter. Why? Because of his proposal that senior citizens making under 50K a year won't have to file a tax return ever again. Her friends are supporting Obama because of this, too. Hillary has offered nothing similar.

Maybe you should talk to some senior citizens before you make ridiculous blanket statements.

[cornermouse]

66. That is a fiscally irresponsible position.

And it is a promise that I can pretty much guarantee he won't keep unless he raises your taxes to make up for the gap.

[sociallybanned]

31. Apparently not

Well, apparently not in my state nor the surrounding states. Hillary supporters are so disgusted in being called racists because we are not voting black, that they refuse to give any vote to Obama. The Obama supporters which includes the media (Huffpo) and pundit bloggers have smashed that for him. The vandalism at Hillary's HQ , the trashing of a Hillary supporters car with 100s of Obama 08' stickers all over it and the F bomb being yelled at us with the Obama bumper sticker cars when we campaign for her during rush hour has gotten all of those Reagan Democrats plus blue collar workers so ticked off.

[RainDog]

35. KY and WVa were already known to be states Hillary would carry.

if you want to talk about ancedotal evidence, Obama's headquarters have routinely been broken into as well. Hillary has media supporters as well. (Taylor Marsh was on HuffPo last time I looked.)

As far as the other - of course those things are wrong. Again, if you base your vote for a democrat vs a republican on a few rabid supporters - what can I tell you? I can tell you, tho, that to claim ALL "reagan democrats" and blue collar workers are pissed off and will not support Obama - you don't have anything other than this incident, that I see, to make this claim.

again, it is a lie that Obama does not have blue collar voters. However, it is true that Clinton is expected to win big in KY and WVa... and that was long before you stood somewhere with a Hillary sign.

I feel sorry for reagan democrats. Then, like now, I noted they were voting against their own self-interests to vote for a Republican. A study last year from Princeton showed that democrats outperform republicans on the economy 3 out of every 4 years OVER A 50 YEAR PERIOD. This took into account the republican spin that democrats benefited from their policies. The study showed this was a lie, and the ONLY time republicans were helpful to anyone who is not in the richest 1% of this nation's population was in an election year... throwing ppl a bone, hoping their memories were shallow enough to forget all the times they had lost ground economically b/c of republicans.

I hope you and others, esp. in KY and WVa, will choose to vote for your own interests.

[comradebillyboy]

41. All Obama has to do is demonstrate why its in our

best interest to vote for him. I don't think Snob-ama and his followers much give a shit about working class people of any color, or older voters either. After all we are bitter racists clinging to religion and guns. I am an atheist, by the way, and I think Obama's phony religiosity is a hypocritical sham. Sort of like his good friend McCain in that regard.

[FVZA_Colonel]

45. Self-Delete.

Never mind.

[Trajan]

2. Of course they are up for grabs ....

Does anybody think they are going away somewhere without media inundation ?

Kinda lame ...

[Trajan]

5. I dont want to name any names ...

But what is up with the egos here ?

We cannot count on YOUR support this election cycle because someone didnt specifically give YOU something ? .... What is it you want ?

How bout a GOP presidency ? .. would you like one of those ?

Sheeesh ....

Well ... come to think of it: NEITHER candidate offered to clean my damned front deck : It's a mess !

Fuck them: .... Im voting for McConn ....

[melody]

60. They're sitting in the corner pouting like childish brats

And they'll be as responsible for McCain's win as the GOP is.

[FreepFryer]

6. I don't accept this premise. It's an attempt to wedge. The vast majority will vote with the party.

[primavera]

49. I agree

You think Repukes don't know that their only hope of winning an election after the catastrophe of the last seven years is to fabricate and exploit wedge issues? They worship Karl Rove, master of the gay marriage wedge. Divide et imperum, it's been defeating opponents for millenia.

[Gopens]

7. Are Democrats really this stupid?

Any Democrat who would vote for McCain (or not vote at all) simply because their candidate didn't get the nomination is extremely fucked in the head. Would you really enable a GOP presidency after the shit this country has been through since 2000. Are you that insane?????

[Zorra]

25. This particular brand of stupidity is commonly called racism.

There are a whole lot more conservative Democrats that are racists than most folks at DU realize, IMO.

[comradebillyboy]

43. You are an ignorant turd

there are valid reason having noting to do with race for not being an obama supporter.

[Zorra]

67. I agree that there are valid reasons for not being an

Obama supporter. I did not say that there weren't. I am not an Obama supporter. But I plan to vote for the Democratic presidential nominee in November, whoever that may be.

However, there are more than a few conservative Democrats that will not vote for Sen. Obama because he is black. They either will not vote in the presidential election, or they plan to vote for John McCain.

I have personally spoken to a few of these racist "Democrats".

(By the way, the word is spelled "n-o-t-h-i-n-g". You see, there is an "h" after the "t". "Noting" is actually a word, but does not appear to be an appropriate word given the context of your sentence. Also, "Obama" is a proper noun. Proper nouns name a specific item, and begin with a capital letter no matter where they occur in a sentence. I'm not a spelling or grammar nazi, but if you are going to make a personal attack on someone by calling them an "ignorant turd", it would be far more effective if you do not post like a freeper.)

[comradebillyboy]

42. How many Obam supporters say they would never vote for

Hillary under any circumstance? A lot, based on the comments I see here at the DUmp. Its not a one way street you know. Why would it be better to be shit on by one candidate as opposed to being shit on by the other?

[beltanefauve]

55. If this place

is such a DUmp, then what are you doing here?

[reddconsole]

8. Quit making assumptions

I'm from Pennsylvania, where I also went to college, I'm not over 65, my income is higher than average most years, I don't embrace guns and/or religion - and I don't want Obama as my President.

It's bad enough that douche bags like this one from the AP have to pigeonhole people, but Democrats should know better and stay above the fray.

BTW, I'm voting with the Party regardless - this is just too important.

[Bumblebee]

16. Ditto. I have a Ph.D., teach at a big research university; between me and my husband

(and we are both still in our 50s) we make good money. And I think Obama is not ready to be President, and, more importantly, I believe he will never be one because he will lose in a landslide.

[RainDog]

20. everyone is entitled to an opinion

why don't you go look at some of the stats on new voters, white working class voters for Obama, the high negatives for Clinton... instead of just your conjecture which, as an academic, you certainly know doesn't prove anything.

[cornermouse]

23. But the old voters just might not feel like voting for Obama

They are a dependable voting base and that is the point you keep missing. And they have no reason to vote for Obama. He either ignores them or he pats them on the head and then ignores them. Big mistake.

[comradebillyboy]

44. if they don't vote for obama then they must be racists

according to the obamabots

[FVZA_Colonel]

46. Self-Delete.

Never Mind.

[earthlover]

48. I dunno....but they sure as hell are not Democrats or even sensible people!

[Trajan]

29. We are going to hold you to that ....

Let's see if that PH.D is actually worth a shit ....

Perhaps you aren't ready to make predictions .....

Extremely selfish stuff there ....

[Bumblebee]

56. Wow -- just listen to yourself. Fucking unbelievable.

[Trajan]

57. I prefer inclusiveness for our wide coalition ...

I'm tired as hell of dividers and cheap shot experts ....

FUCK that ....

Fucking unbelievable ? .... You BET it is ....

This selfishness is nothing but venal ego masturbation ....

Yeah .. It's your opinion, and you are entitled to it, but there is NO DOUBT your opinion reduces the strength of the whole democratic electorate .... I CAN call that out, like it or not ....

For the record: I support BOTH Obama and Clinton ..... I refuse to split gnat hairs in order to satiate my own vanity ... There isn't a gnat hair's difference between our two FINE candidates, given the difference between them and the other party ....

Sorry, but your opinion isn't reason enough to toss Obama over the gunwales ....

Quite the reverse ....

Figure that out, Doctor .....

[reddconsole]

64. I'm voting with the Party

this time because of the colossal importance of this election.

It's just unfortunate that my choice is going to be one of the lesser-thans that the media thrust upon us by eliminating Kucinich and Edwards. Both Hillary and Obama pale in comparison, but Obama in particular is not yet ready to lead the nation through these hard times.

[KamaAina]

21. But are you bitter?

Inquiring minds want to know. :-)

[RainDog]

22. reddconsole, if your post was a reply to my initial one

I just want to clarify that I was repeating what Jonathan Alter and others noted - and that is that Hillary's base is not all white blue collar voters. This is a misrepresentation. Of course both candidates have supporters across the spectrum. The article was lying. Alter, along with stats that came out of the recent primary where I am, noted that the voting block that had given Hillary strength was in the 65 and over voter. that's very diff. than saying that is her only voter. Again, the point is that Hillary doesn't have a lock of white blue collar votes. that's all.

[Xipe Totec]

10. No fucking chance!

I will support the Democratic candidate come November,

despite the misguided efforts of some alleged Democrats in GDP, that have made me see cross-eyed with rage.

[Pharlo]

11. The 'Hillary Democrats' aren't the issue.

They may refuse to work on Obama's campaign in the general election, but when it comes to voting, they'll hold their nose and vote for Obama.

It's the 'Hillary Independents' that are up for grabs. I work with 2 of them. Neither one intends voting for Obama in the general election. Classification: blue collar, self described
'Conservative Democrats', white voters in the 40 to 50 year age category. Obama better hope they're not a large voting segment.

[Bumblebee]

18. In Ohio, Florida, Pennsylvania, and all other traditionally swing states

they probably are a pretty huge voting bulk. Throw in Hispanics into the mix, and you do have a disaster on your hands of huge proportions. But it's too late -- the train has left the station, and now we all just have to watch the trainwreck. What's equally upsetting is that it's going to be a trainwreck for future African-American presidential candidates who may be actually better positioned and more qualified than Obama.

[cornermouse]

24. Actually, I think Obama could have been a good choice

four years from now, especially if he decided to create a voting trail for us to follow.

[Bumblebee]

28. I do too.

[FogCityJohn]

27. Numbers

Actually, I saw some figures on this yesterday at Huffingtonpost. The white, blue collar demographic is actually a relatively small segment of the electorate, and its recent voting history has been pretty consistently Republican. So describing these folks as "swing voters" is probably less than accurate.

[Bumblebee]

30. Yes, but the whole point is that now because of Iraq and economy, they

are very much in play... If you think Obama's new voters can replace them in swing states, I am afraid it's not very realistic.

[RainDog]

33. what evidence can you offer to back up this negativity?

you do not offer ANYTHING but your opinion. well, I have one too. I'm a white middle-aged female with a masters degree from a major research university in a field ranked first in scholarly publications in its field. I read two languages, in addition to English. I have two children. I support Obama. I would only vote for Clinton if I absolutely had to. And she is making that harder and harder.

None of what I just said about myself matters as far as my qualifications to state an opinion.

You offer no evidence to back up your claims. Why not?

[susanwy]

37. Possible true in previous election cycles

However, you have to remember that many of this blue collar demographic is very pissed off at the republicans right now. Why do you think many of them took any democratic candidate seriously this cycle and didn't let the religious right tell them who to support (as if they have a clue this time around). They have watched the value of their homes disappear (many times their biggest asset), can't afford to drive to work anymore in their 10 year old car that they can't afford to replace, have lost the ability to save for retirement or put their kids through school, and I didn't even touch the fact that many of THEIR sons and daughters have died in Iraq/Afghanistan or returned home to inadequate care. They are the demographic that encouraged their children to join the military. Many are conflicted on the war, not sure if a complete pull out is the answer or if we stay and try to salvage the mess GWB leaves behind.

So, I would argue that this year they are quite possible swing voters, and Obama and his supporters would do well to recognize this fact. They are looking for some way out of this mess, and not just hope on a stick. Obama is going to have to get into specifics now, real meat and potatoes specifics about his policy. And PLEASE, don't tell me he has, he hasn't. I check his website about once a week and it is still lacking, not to mention his positions have shifted right or left from one month to the next. Seriously, I wish I had the drive space to have archived his website over the last year. I'm working on post outlining my problems with his platform and what he needs to do to convince me.

I'm not blue collar, I have two degrees, a professional well paying job and I am working on my masters, but my husband is as blue as blue collar gets. We argued about voting for GWB in 2000 and canceled each other out, in 2004 he refused to tell me who he voter for because I kept nagging him about how he should have listened to me in the first place and not voted for GWB. This year he was leaning Hillary as was I recently, but now he is considering not voting at all. I am willing to give Obama a chance to convince me otherwise, but right now I remain unconvinced. A few weeks ago I said I'd support the nominee whomever it turns out to be, but now, I'm not so sure. Obama's positions on NASA, education, energy and Iraq all concern me. I'm not over 65, uneducated or racist, I just don't think his policies are the right direction for our nation. All I know is I WON'T vote for McLame. But, I may join my husband in leaving the presidential column blank. Not that it makes a difference in Wyoming, 'cause its measly two electoral votes will go to McLame. Please, someone, introduce a constitutional amendment to abolish that pesky electoral college.

Peace,

Susan

[comradebillyboy]

40. Bravo, well said susanwy

I completely sympathize with you on this one.

I will not vote for McCain, but I'll probably puke on the voting machine if I pull the lever for Obama.

[melody]

63. If you do not vote for the Democrat, you might as well vote for the Republican

There will be one more GOP vote your Democratic vote won't cancel out. YOU WILL be giving us four more years of the same national nightmare we have now. You REALLY think ANY Democrat would be worse than that?

[Android3.14]

32. If that's the reason we lose

Then we are so stupid it wouldn't matter if she had won the nomination.

[oxbow]

36. I find this quote telling:

last paragraph:
"He's got to embrace the culture is what he's got to do," Sanders said. "The boy's IQ looks like Pete Rose's liftime batting average. It's off the charts. But at the same token, that comes off to us as big city. The big city thing John Kerry never could shake, I think, is Obama's problem right now. But I think he can get those voters and lot more if he just gets out there among the people so they can get to know him."


So basically, you're saying that rural voters don't want a smart President. I can respect that. It's not like it's that important a job or anything. Any jackass could do it, right? Wasn't that the idea last time?


:grr::grr::grr:

[RainDog]

38. latest LaTimes/Bloomberg poll: Both Obama and Clinton beat McCain

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3303748

if the election were held at this time, both of them would beat McCain. and why? that 90s Clinton campaign mantra: it's the economy.

[Jackpine Radical]

52. Yes, it is the economy.

People always vote their wallets in hard times. That means voting Democratic. They only vote their prejudices in good times. That's why people like Shrub get in after a Clinton boom. And it's why Obama will win in 2008. That just hit me.

[crimsonblue]

53. nedra is a worse sack of shit...

the only thing she is good at writing about is faux scandals and right wing talking memos. No thanks.

[Jackpine Radical]

54. This piece is a crock of shit.

That is all.

[Freedom Train]

58. They are not up for grabs by Obama, that much is clear.

If he is nominated, the large majority of those voters will go for McCain.

But luckily we still have the option to nominate Hillary.

[bronxiteforever]

65. Then Women's rights up for grabs. McCain=end of Roe

[Gman]

68. This falls under the "Duh, no shit, Sherlock!" category

If Obama gets the nomination, they will no longer be called Reagan Democrats, they will be McCain Democrats. They will give McCain 40 states in November.

Start getting used to President McCain. Thanks a lot, Obama.

[Hawaii Hiker]

76. How on FUCKING earth can these "Hillary Democrats" actually think McCain

excuse me, McBush, identifies with them better than Obama.....Oh, let me guess, McBush is the better candiate to have that beer with, after all, McCain is just a down to earth good ole boy, who realates to the middle class right?.....Give me a fucking break, McBush is an elitist who favors the Bush tax cuts, he could give a shit about the poor & middle class....

And were not even getting in to the Supreme Court, where any McBush appointments will only increase the chances of Roe V. Wade being overturned....

I know the media is giving that old pug McBush a free ride right now, but believe me, the guy is no moderate...He votes 95% of the time with Bush, favors the furthest right Supreme Court justices, favors the Iraq disaster, favors the Bush tax cuts, etc...

And some Democrats think he's better than Obama - well shame on you, :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

78. Nedra.

[FreepFryer]

79. As I mentioned in post #6, the # of Hillary-or-elsers is v. small. This is a pro-GOP wedge issue.

Don't fall for it.

[DearAbby]

80. ...

[Kahuna]

81. Pickler is an anti-Dem hack going way back. nt