Feminists sharply divided between Clinton, Obama

[onehandle]

Source: AP

NEW YORK - No constituency is more eager to see a woman win the presidency than America's feminists, yet — despite Hillary Rodham Clinton's historic candidacy — the women's movement finds itself wrenchingly divided over the Democratic race as it heads toward the finish.

At breakfast forums, in op-ed columns, across the blogosphere, the debate has been heartfelt and sometimes bitter. Are the activist women supporting front-runner Barack Obama betraying their gender? Are Clinton's feminist backers mired in an outdated, women's-liberation mind-set?

Clinton supporter Gloria Feldt, former president of the Planned Parenthood Federation of America, accepts that the women's movement is not single-minded, yet worries that the Obama-Clinton rift is eroding whatever clout it might have. "We're squandering an opportunity to be seen as a voting bloc that turns elections," Feldt said. "Unless we are working together, in a strategically thought-out effort to vote in our own best interests, we are in danger of never having another election where people will say women can determine the outcome."

Overall, Clinton's now-endangered campaign has survived largely because of her 60 percent to 36 percent edge over Obama among white women voters in the primaries to date. But among college-educated white women — the demographic of many feminists and of Clinton herself — her edge is much smaller, 54 percent to 43 percent, according to exit polls conducted for The Associated Press and television networks.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080510/ap_on_el_pr/democrats_feminists

[melody]

1. That's just what we need -- more divisiveness

:eyes:

[lisa58]

2. When are we just gonna be people?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

23. When the Soylent Green days arrive.

:scared:

[Mooney]

70. Maybe I'm wrong,

but I don't think I've EVER seen so much demographics porn as I have during this primary season. I have never seen or heard so many people reel off gems like "He won't get the Asian vote" or "Jews won't vote for him" or "He has trouble connecting with Latinos" and so on and so on. It's really fucking irritating, and I have to say that I see it coming almost exclusively from the HRC campaign.

[mhoran]

3. "Unless we are working together..."

...we all run the risk of screwing up a tremendous opportunity.

[LuckyLib]

4. A number of American women are "post feminists." We're supporting the best person for the job.

[EFerrari]

29. Post feminism is the patriarchal response to feminism gone mainstream.

As soon as we did, they claimed it was over.

:tinfoilhat:

:)

[rodeodance]

52. Hillary Clinton, the best person for the job of President.....

[Exultant Democracy]

62. And you base this on the totally incompetent job she has done at running for president?

It is the largest thing she has ever run and she got her clock creamed. Shoot even George Bush did a better job running for prez and he is the king of fools.

[Mooney]

72. Why?

[kwassa]

77. sounds like post-intelligence to me

post-feminist, an empty concept

[FutureDemocrat]

5. A true feminist would never support her

This particular woman has allowed herself to be publicly abused by her husband for years.

This particular woman is only where she is because of her husband.

This particular woman cried in front of the cameras during her campaign, thus "proving" the main argument against a woman in office: that they're too emotional.

To elect her would be to show our daughters that the ONLY way to get ahead is to have a succesful husband. (My own mother told me that this would be the only way for a woman to be elected)

To elect her would be showing our daughters that it's "the right thing to do" to stay with a husband who publicly cheats on you over and over and over again, as long as it helps you.

[bean fidhleir]

12. Exactly. She doesn't even begin to represent feminism.

Feminism is not about becoming smaller, nastier men.

[MilesColtrane]

34. "nastier men."

Nice.

The feminists I know don't consider men nasty.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

28. who died and left you in charge of determining what a true feminist is?

[KittyWampus]

59. no one died, just someone voicing an agreement. Corporate whores like Hillary

don't embody the Feminism I agree with.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

66. the feminism you agree with is a different statement than telling people that

real feminist dont support hillary

:eyes:

[NashVegas]

53. ^^^^^^^^^^^ Thank You For Providing The Example of Why Many HC Supporters Loath Obama

Because we see straight through this particular bullshit and recognize it as purposely divisive.

[rodeodance]

54. i am sorry for your problem but you are very wrong. Hillarys marriage is NONE of your business.

[gabby garcia]

73. as public figures who's morals and family values...

..are looked upon and are role models for our entire nation and our nation's children - having the most important jobs in the United States of America - if their marriage is none of our business...how can you ever possibly hope to argue that a person's pastor whom they do not even see or interact with on a daily basis (as one might in a true marriage) is up for scrutiny?

[tidy_bowl]

6. I believe ....

....that a woman president is more desirable to be elected at this time. Not that Obama doesn't deserve it only that a woman should be first.

[DAGDA56]

7. Why?

[bhal123]

10. To state that either should be first

is the epitome of continuing to promote inequality. The winner of the primary should be the PERSON who is best qualified. Each voter needs to decide whom that should be. Whether each candidate is a woman or a racial minority or of a certain religion is of minimal concern in such an evaluation.

[VolcanoJen]

17. "not that Obama doesn't deserve it, only that a woman should be first."

How come?

[TahitiNut]

39. Tradition

:rofl:

"Women and children first!"

[natrat]

8. it would be one thing if clinton actually promoted feminist causes

as it stands it's just liv female voters voting for her because of her gender and that's complete bs

[Cirque du So-What]

9. Buzzflash commentary on this headline:

The Race is Over, Even Rasmussen Has Stopped Polling. Hillary Lost Because She's a Flawed Candidate and Lacks a Consistent Moral Center, Not Because She's a Woman. Feminism Isn't About Replacing the Archaic Bellicose Male Model of Government with a Female Who Engages in the Archaic Bellicose Male Model of Government.

http://www.buzzflash.com/

[Faygo Kid]

11. Wow. Strong stuff.

I prefer to say that she ran into a once-in-a-generation candidate that she was totally unprepared for. I'll leave the characterization of her "moral center" to others.

One thing for sure: She is a flawed candidate. Anybody relying on Mark Penn and Wolfson and the old style pols was sure to find trouble. The triangulation thing killed her candidacy, too. She was nevertheless formidable, and absolutely must find some way to get her backers to back Obama, or her legacy is not going to be a favorable one.

[mntleo2]

13. Give Me A Break ...

...as an older woman, once a feminist who was one of the first in my area and now a "humanist," I really resent the idea of voting for someone just because they have boobs.

But then perhaps I was lucky in hindsight. In the 1970s in my state we elected the first woman governor, Dixie Lee Ray. The woman was a kook. I voted for her because she was a woman and did not look at her credentials closely enough. A nuclear physicist, she plunged us into a decades long nuclear energy fiasco that we are still paying our tax dollars to bale out, even though it never came to fore. Our state was in a deep recession and she was too busy French kissing her dogs.

I am a Barack supporter because I have watched Hillary Clinton's feminist record and it is abysmal. The only "feminists" she cares about are rich feminists. Low income women have literally been standing under her office window for years trying to tell her their stories and she turned a deaf ear. They even threw waffles at her window in frustration because she "waffled" so much at the safety net the SHE helped to tatter. Since it is a known fact and has always been that there are more WOMEN in poverty in this country, youdda thunk she might want to take a look, if she is so "feminist" but she could have given a rat's rear.

Meanwhile Barack Obama was walking the barrios of Chicago listening to We The People and gets what is going on with the average American and yes he hears the plight of women far more than Clinton ever has. No, it is true that he has no boobs ~ but he has something more precious to me: he has a heart

Cat In Seattle <---social justice activist for over 30 years

[graycem]

51. an enthusiastic ditto!

:toast:

[Adelante]

14. I support Obama because I want him to be president

I don't care what race or gender he is. I am a feminist since 1968 and white since birth.

[Genevieve]

16. What you said

;)

[nightrain]

15. As much as I would be thrilled to support a woman for President,

Hillary Clinton has NOT demonstrated the qualities of responsiveness and honesty that I expect from a candidate.

I prefer Obama, even with his shortcomings.

I hope another woman comes along in my lifetime who I could support!

[Freedom Train]

18. It doesn't seem very feminist to me

to vote for man #44 instead of woman #1. It seems more like betraying the very essence of feminism and setting your movement back x couple of years. This was the feminists' first real chance at a female presidency, and they have come very close to blowing it by splitting off for Obama for some inexplicable reason. :shrug:

Also, as the article points out, you've blown your chance to be seen as a voting bloc to be reckoned with, furthering your political irrelevancy. It's sad.

[GarbagemanLB]

19. So you'd vote for Laura Bush? Condi?

I'm not equating Hillary to those two, but you seem to be saying that gender is the only important factor that feminists should look at...

[Freedom Train]

22. Silly me, I thought we were DEMOCRATS,

and that this discussion concerned the DEMOCRATIC party. Why anyone - especially feminists - would vote Republican is beyond me.

[mntleo2]

26. Bingo!

I am *not* going to vote for no stinkin' woman just because she is one. I want to see some insight into the human tragedies that have been happening right under her nose that she ignores.

Clinton went around with Joe freaking LIEberman just three years ago screaming about how "successful" Welfare DEformed was. Welfare DEformed that has plunged millions of WOMEN into lifelong poverty, literally rips three month nursing babies from their mother's breast and forces little kids to become Instant Mothers because she and LIEberman "forget" to add in reliable, affordable, safe, childcare and refuses to allow them to seek an education, not even a GED if they do not have one. Poverty is a WOMEN'S issue and she knows it and refuses to acknowledge it. I could name more things, like her support of undermining the NY union workers by replacing them with welfare-to-work forced laborers paid literally pennies on the dollar less than the people they replaced, plunging even more people into poverty and over riding union say, but I digress .

No. Hillary is *no* feminist, *no* humanist, she isn't even democratic because she who was educated in private schools, who had nannies for her only child, cooks to fix her dinner, and maids to clean up her and her daughter;s messes, thinks parenting is "doing nothing" which is what Welfare DEformed codified into law. If people think LAW only pertain to a certain class of people like the POOR but not to all Americans, well then they are not very democratic either. I just ask anyone like Hillary Clinton when she applauds the dolt who says, "I should not have to support anybody else's kids ..." "Sooooo, who is going to pay THEIR Social Security??? With your thinking MY kids should not pay theirs and I should not have to contribute to anyone else's parent's Social Security????" With your thinking Ms Clinton, this government should say, "You are on your own. The government is only to manage corporations (which we refuse to regulate decently either), and who gives a crap about We The People..."

The other day at the food bank I spoke with a woman who worked as a waitress all her life and raised 4 kids while she did that. She has nothing BUT her Social Security to live on, thus why she was at the food bank. Does Hillary give a rat's rear about HER???? This is the future she is giving to millions of women that she barely mentions who are forced into working McJobs for the rest of their lives with no advancement, no retirement, no sick leave, and not enough pay to even pay the rent. P.S. TWO of those 4 kids are in Iraq ...care to comment about "not having to raise other people's kids" now??? If so, tell those two to come home and go over there yourself!

Give me a break. Actions speak louder than words, as the saying goes. No I *won't* vote for a pair of boobs, as I said above, I will vote for someone with a HEART!

Cat In Seattle

[VotesForWomen]

44. no, not bingo; hill's the most qualified *and* she's a woman. that's why this feminist is voting for

her.

[mntleo2]

49. I Really Want To know HOW She Is more qualified ...

Please I am not being sarcastic because I really would like some good answers to the questions I am asking, I really would like to know ....

A. Has she done anything for women in this country?
B. Did she care enough about We The People To vote against this war that even I could see was a fiasco
C. Which brings me to the next question ...if I could see it and if she is so much smarter, why didn't she?
D. What has she done for low income women in this country or even spoken about it?
E. Why DID she go around the country celebrating the fact that she helped rip up our safety net and pllunge millions of women and their children into life long poverty?
F. why is she so against even getting a GED for poor women?
F. Where was she when under her nose welfare-to-work women were beinf used as forced labor for pennies on the dollar and displaced UNION city workers?
G. Board member of WalMart where millions of low income people have been paid nothing while her good friends the Waltons rake in billions off those workers and off worker's sweat (shops) in 3rd world countries (mostly women) are used for slave labor. Just so the Waltons CAN make billions, where workers were locked in the stores and forced to work for nothing and had to SUE to get paid for their time, where it has always been WalMart policy toi fire anyone who wanted a union ~ many of those policies and certainly the elitist atmosphere she supported and policies she helped set while a board member ...


But please do not count speeches, I need to see her actions ...and not during the time running for president when she has been pandering ...

Barack Obama not only refused to work in some high powered law office as she did, he actually worked as an activist, he walked the street, and he fought almost all these issues before he was even a U.S. Senator ...

Cat In Seattle

[dana_b]

24. I do not understand your logic at all

I can't in good conscience vote willingly for someone who would threaten another country, infer that the white voter is the imporatant vote to have, and play up to the boys club. How is that promoting feminism?? Vote for the PERSON who best supports your ideals. It seems that voting for someone just because of their gender is reverse sexism.

[Freedom Train]

37. Threaten another country? You mean like Obama threatened Pakistan?

:eyes:

I assume you mean her Iran comment, and it's a very simple political reality really: Because Iran know they will be "obliterated" if they ever attack Israel, they won't attack Israel, and thus they'll never be obliterated. This is a mere hypothetical fact Hillary was in essence reiterating, and not a threat per se. Threat-wise, Obama's comment was worse. And in any case, from a feminist point of view, neither comment is relevant.

The white voter is certainly important, just like all other voters. To fawn over and tout the support of one group (i.e. blacks) as being good, but accuse talk about white support as being racist is mere hypocrisy and an attempt to find racism where there is none, simply to gain a perceived political and moral advantage.

And how exactly does Hillary "play up to the boys club"? What does that even mean? It's bullshit! If ever there was a strong, tough woman who could hold her own against any man, Hillary is the one. Why aren't you celebrating this fact?

No, I'll turn the question back at you and ask, how is it feminism to NOT promote Hillary? How is anything mentioned above anti-feminist in such a way that you feel inclined to vote against her??

[mntleo2]

78. I can answer that ...

...when it is not supporting feminism to vote for Hillary Clinton is when you have watched how she voted and the stances she has taken that are against the better interests of women.

A. She thinks parenting is not contributing to Community, when raising the next generations to take care of US and run our country, is about the most patriotic thing a person can do. Parenting as mostly a woman's job. See Welfare Reform and her stance on it, she is 100% fot it. This has been codified into law where there are more women in poverty in this country than men and furthermore she thinks poor women and their children should be plunged into lifelong poverty working McJobs, and FURTHERMORE, she says that it is just fine to rip three month old babies from their mother's breast to force mothers into those McJobs. How "feminist" is that?

B. See here: http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/362579_momsalary10.html. MomsRising is working hard to get paid family leave, which would impact WOMEN mostly as they not only raise the children, but also take care of their elders and spouses. Thanks to that work, they also "lose" around 1/2 million dollars in lifetime wages. As I told Joan Blades, the founder of this organization (and of MoveOn): "If we do not see women's work as being legitimate work worthy of the respect it deserves, how can you expect corporations or our government to want to compensate for that work?" Yet Clinton has actively demonized this work with her stances against it. How "feminist" is it to not honor this traditionally feminine work as a worthwhile contribution to our society by supporting it financially as well as with our collective approval?

C. Women's work has been marginalized since the beginning of time because it is unpaid work ~ but it is intellectually challenging, diplomatic, hard work nevertheless. Women in most cultures are the weavers of Community, the healers, the caretakers. Yet the modern feminist movement has done nothing but ridicule this work. They actually think working a McJob is "better" than raising a child or taking care of an elder or giving to your community and neighborhoods. They actually think that spending your life saying, "Would you like fries with that?" is "more important" than a child or elder. That traditional women's work has kept civilizations, religious institutions and neighborhoods intact because of the efforts of women. Venezuela at this time PAYS stay-at-home moms a wage to raise their next generation because they value that work. Cuba will actually grant a divorce to a woman if the man does not help her with that work. Clinton, with her nanny help, her cooks, her maids thinks women should do both and not get any compensation for the other full time job women do, she says it is "doing nothing." How feminist is that?

Hillary Clinton thinks working for corporations and making a paycheck is somehow "better" when corporations are doing nothing for their communities like women do. While I would agree women are forced more and more into the workplace to provide for their families, I would also say this is because WOMEN'S WORK IS NOT RESPECTED OR SUPPORTED thanks to the likes of Hillary Clinton and her ilk. Women would be given a better choice to do both if the work she does at home and in her community was valued, which according to Clinton, it should not be. How feminist is that?

I could go on but ...

Cat In Seattle

[Arugula Latte]

32. Feminism is about choices, and we are discerning enough to reject a substandard candidate.

Hillary Clinton does nothing for this white woman. In fact, as this race has gone on (and on and and on...) I've become ever more disgusted with her behavior. Obama has conducted himself with class and dignity. Clinton has sunk down into the mud, weighed down by her arrogance and sense of entitlement to the nomination.

[Freedom Train]

40. I'm taking note of the fact that you don't say one thing about

Obama being better from a feminist point of view. It's just the generic view that he has more "class and dignity". So Hillary is not perfect, I get it. But would you rather wait another 250 years for "perfection" to come along, or go with what is realistically within reach now and build on that into the future?

[Arugula Latte]

63. I'd like to see a woman president, just like I'd like to see a black president,

but those factors are no overriding concerns to me.

Also, remember, Hillary voted for the IWR. I wonder how many women and girls have been slaughtered due in part to her decision to let political considerations rule her judgments.

[TheDoorbellRang]

36. We haven't split off to Obama for inexplicable reasons

We have split off to Obama because we see him as the better candidate. Voting for someone because they are male or female is sexist no matter which gender they are.

[Blue_Roses]

20. "Betray your gender..."

:wtf:

[mntleo2]

33. Yeah, wtf???? LOL

[BlooInBloo]

21. (shrug) Feminists are divided about a lot of things.

[EFerrari]

27. Right. That's why we have Womens Studies DEPARTMENTS

not a Womens Studies PROFESSOR. lol

[mntleo2]

45. Who teach crap like ...

"...all men are rapists..." I am not making this up.

I worked at the University of Washington with this young man, a brilliant and caring person. About 10 years ago, the above statement was the "correct" answer to an essay question that this young man refused to qualify (nor would I). Because he refused and it was a requirement for his expensive and hard earned degree, and because he actually had a conscience, he fought back and said just because he could not answer that question "correctly" should not mean he should fail the course and thus not get his degree (uhhhh People these students are now paying upwards of $15,000 a year for that sheepskin and it was a ridiculous answer ...). It made international headlines because he lost and had to transfer to another university that had more integrity. Meanwhile the "professor" who makes around 100 grand a year is doing fine, thank-you very much ...

Cat In Seattle <---see why I am no longer a feminist but now I call myself a "humanist" because I realized men get it in the shorts as well only with other things than women do ...

[EFerrari]

46. You are generalizing from an asshole to a whole field of study.

:shrug:

[mntleo2]

74. Agreed!

...it was a generalization but ... Sometimes stories like this can also epitomize the situation and I was just sayin' what I saw at a major university who blesses this kind of crap. I HOPE other women's studies departments are not so lame brained but am sad to hear they are. The point of my story was that I wonder how may other universities applaud the same crap. Sorry there are kooks, but since this department has great influence on my community's policies and procedures, yet STILL do not have a real world grasp, nor will they take the responsibility for what they have released as they refused to do in the case I describe.

As a woman myself I just would like to see people have a heart and since they think they are such "experts" on womanhood, I expect them to BE a real women. They could start by admitting that teachings like this, are wrong. This young man was *not* a rapist, my three sons are *not* rapists, my father did *not* rape my mother to conceive me so they said, nor did your father most likely not rape your mother to conceive you. Instead of understanding the impact of those "teachings" this department preferred to use their power to shut a young man down who actually cared about their stooopid studies enough to risk the 60 grand he spent on his education (by working at two jobs for it) to call it out. I would expect the same excellence from the math professor or the German Department head to be at the top of their field in knowledge and example, and if they want to be women's studies, then they should BE that because real women admit their mistakes, they do not flaunt their power and pawn those mistakes off on someone just because he stood up and told the truth!

My 2 cents

Cat In Seattle

[EFerrari]

75. There are control freaks in every profession.

The faculty in our department was nothing like that. They were intellectuals and good teachers and moms and stuff. :)

/ack

[frickaline]

25. "Are Clinton's feminist backers mired in an outdated, women's-liberation mind-set?"

I think this statement may be true for some. As a feminist, I took offense to descriptions of Hillary like 'testicular fortitude'. I was amazed to find other women supporting these statements with out-dated 1970's feminist rhetoric. Have we really come no further in 40 years?

I can understand supporting her for other reasons, but as a feminist, she just isn't measuring up. At least not in my opinion.

[BlooInBloo]

31. There's a lotta conceptual divisions within feminism - and those may be reflected somewhat...

In the Obama/Clinton race (dunno for sure about that though.)

Probably the most funamental divide within feminism is that between the work-within-the-system people and the need-a-revolution people. But there are a host of divides (sex work, for example)

[riverdeep]

48. The primary divide seems to be age.

Those 50 and older living through the second wave are more Hillary, younger feminists are more for Obama.

[scarletwoman]

30. Voting for someone based on their genitilia is ridiculous.

Margaret Thatcher is a woman; would the "feminists" of Gloria Feldt's ilk vote for HER because she's a woman?

sw

[BlooInBloo]

35. Doing things based upon a big boobed B actress IS ridiculous!

But c'mon - she's hawt!

:rofl:

[TahitiNut]

58. BOTH Tilly sisters are "hawt"!

(Jennifer AND Meg) Believe it.

[cliffordu]

38. Now don't you gals worry your pretty little heads about this:

I'm sure the owners of the womens magazines will tell you who to vote for soon enough....


:sarcasm:

[reflection]

41. This paragraph

"Unless we are working together, in a strategically thought-out effort to vote in our own best interests, we are in danger of never having another election where people will say women can determine the outcome."

describes the problem. Not every self-labeled 'feminist' agrees on the solution, or perhaps even the problem. Whither feminism?

[mystieus]

42. I find it self-defeating that feminists force each other to vote for a woman.

Isn't the point of all that fuss to see women on an equal footing? Which would mean, voting for a woman not because of her gender, but her credentials.

[rodeodance]

56. no body is forcing anybody. get that straight

[VotesForWomen]

43. *women* may be divided, i doubt feminists are to any significant degree.

[GarbagemanLB]

47. You're right. They probably support Obama.

[BlooInBloo]

55. Feminists - at least in the academic sense - are not a monolithic block of thinkers.

[riverdeep]

50. Gee, why doesn't half the American population support the same thing?

Try getting 100 people in a room to agree about anything. Now try getting 150 million, or whatever the Dem women come out to be, 75 million maybe.

What about Black women. Who will they betray? What about Hispanic women? Do they get filed under 'Hispanic' or 'Woman', or maybe 'Religious'?

Trying to glean information about how America feels about women in high office is useless from this election. Hillary is by no means a standard representative sample. She is virulently hated by half the country, and working really hard since February to get the other half to the same conclusion.

"...we are in danger of never having another election where people will say women can determine the outcome."

You'll always have women determining the outcome. They just won't all be under a unified banner.

All things being equal, a woman for Pres would be great, but not this woman. 'A woman at any cost!', is too high a price.

That they state outright their primary concern is about their organizations losing power is worrisome.

[bunnies]

57. I will never, ever consider myself a feminist again.

Since it apparently means turning smart women into vagina worshiping sheep... I want no part of it.

[LizW]

60. Well, don't worry

As I continue to fight for equal pay and reproductive rights and against sexual harassment, workplace discrimination, rape and domestic violence, I'll take care of those things for you. You needn't lift a hand, lest someone think you're one of those icky feminists.

[bunnies]

61. blah blah blah blah.

I'm sick of these lectures. Spare me. You want to pretend you're a better "woman" than me? Knock yourself out.

[LizW]

65. Sorry if you felt "lectured," but

you called me a "vagina worshiping sheep". I continue to fight for your rights, too, even though you revile me.

I don't think I'm a better woman than you. I'm sure you're an awesome woman, and that's why I've got your back, little sister, whether you like it or not.

[bunnies]

67. I did not call you that.

It just seems to me that its what most "feminist" organizations want. Take N.O.W. for example. I just dont *get* their platform.

Sorry I lashed out at you... I just dont even know what to think of "feminism" anymore!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

71. ...

:rofl:

[EFerrari]

76. Now, there is an image!

:rofl:

[sam kane]

64. So we have to vote for Condi Rice too?

Or we won't be feminists according to y'all. H. Clinton did more than any other Democrat to encourage the murder of innocent women and children in Iraq, destroy their heritage, kill their families, let loose rapists and spread depleted uranium throughout the land.

The fact that you are willing to not just hold your nose and vote for her but actively advocate for such a person really undermines any claim that you have on feminism.

[MikeDJohn]

69. YES YES YES!!!!!!!!!!

I wonder if any one of the so-called "feminists" who support Clinton have really reviewed the issues, have a full view of the history of feminism, or really think about how ugly an image of feminism Hillary projects, should she become a leader of the most powerful nation in the world.

[NancyG]

68. 57, woman, and I'll take either

Just please stop bickering and let's get after McCain.