It's REALLY really over. Senator Clinton NEEDS to stop now.

[LibraLiz1973]

I am not a Senator Obama supporter. My original candidate was John Edwards.
I reluctantly decided to support Senator Clinton- mostly because I do not think
Senator Obama is really ideal for the job.

But there is SUPPORT and there is INSANITY.

I was all for her fighting it out- as long as there was a shot.
But there is NO WAY she can win now. It is a physical impossibility.
The choice is to continue a race that will not end well, or to bow
out as gracefully as possible now that the FACTS show that she can not
be elected.

Our party is becoming a laughing stock. By continuing to stay in the race,
she is giving the Republicans, the pundits & voters just cause to mock us
and make this election a joke.


Senator Clinton supporters, I understand WHY you do not want her to "quit".
Like you, I do not believe that Senator Obama is the second coming.
(not ALL of his supporters do either- but the ones that do
make it VERY difficult to be here)
I know what it is like to realize your candidate is not going to win.
But we all have to look at reality.
And the reality is, there is NO path to the nomination.

Many of us have joked about a brokered convention.
But... think about it. It's MAY. Do you really think we
can continue like this until August and come out strong and united??
If you think our party is in disarray now, what do you think we will be in August~ after we have
torn ourselves apart & made McCain's job easier?

For the GOOD of our party she MUST step down.


I genuinely hope that the rabid Obama supporters on this board (I don't mean ALL Sen. Obama supporters- I mean the ones that are deliberately obnoxious and argumentative) can be kind in their responses to this thread.
You have done enough damage here already with your vitriol and your hatred.
We get it- you don't like her.
But you need to realize- she DOES have supporters. And they DO feel strongly about this election.
Just like you feel strongly about Senator Obama.
If we can't begin to start coming together...

What unites us is stronger than what divides us.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

1. For the last time: Obama supporters don't think he is the second coming.

Enough!

[LibraLiz1973]

You are right. I corrected what I said.

Not ALL do- but the ones that do are scary.

:scared:

[corkhead]

19. go look at the blog on Hillary's website if you want to see some scary shit.

there are kooks on both sides. no candidate has a corner on the market.

[Bensthename]

2. Wolfson just implied on Fox that Hillary is taking this to the convention

Summary: If we dont like the outcome of the primaries and if the DNC does not do what we want with MI and FL we are taking this to the convention.


Oh My Gawd.. There it is..

Hillary campaign is determined to give this to McCain..
This is so sad..

[The Ghost]

6. I heard that too, and thats how I heard it

This is what insanity does to people. Hillary will single-handedly tear the party apart if she takes this to the convention. What a legacy that is.

[still_one]

10. It goes to the Convention undecided, WE WILL LOSE THE WHITEHOUSE /nt

Hopefully, the SuperDelegates will put a stop to this madness

[Bensthename]

16. And Hillary will be able to run again in 2012

Her plan becomes clearer every day.. You are right, the supers need to stop this.
They will probably let her finish the last primary in June, but they need to run his way after that.

[LibraLiz1973]

17. By the time this hits the convention, she will have no career left

much less the chance to run in 2012. I'm telling you, this is a suicide mission.
Crash and burn all the way.

[roseBudd]

18. I have a feeling daily Super Delegate additions to the Obama column will become so embarrassing

that she will have no choice but to admit her only remaining argument, electability is not true.

[still_one]

24. That may be her illusion, but the party will NEVER forgive the Clinton's if that happens

and they are the ones to take it to the convention

They will completely destroy any clout they have in the Democratic party. They have already damaged it some

[Divernan]

41. "Diehard" -Stubbornly resisting change or clinging to a seemingly hopeless or outdated cause.

Clinton, her husband (whom pundits say is the only one she listens to) and her remaining supporters are the ultimate personification of "diehard".

[DeschutesRiver]

45. I agree with the OP

(except that I wasn't a Hillary supporter at any time, because by the time I felt "swayed" by a candidate, she'd already started falling apart and being divisive, which isn't what I'm looking for). I just looked at two candidates, and have picked the better of the two as far as the democratic party goes. And if Obama can hold up to pressure, deliver things I feel crucial regarding where he stands on various issues, and so on, I could vote for him in the fall easily. I still want to see how things shake out, though. And there are tons of independents like me out there, watching this and wondering when the democratic party will unite and show what it is made of and what it is capable of producing. If the dems don't want it, then a viable choice won't be made available to anyone else eiter.

I won't have a meaningful chance to vote democrat if this Hillary debacle continues - and yes, the worst thing about this is not losing the GE (though it would be great and help much at this point in our history to have a democratic president), it will be the destruction of the Democratic Party for many years to come. Think about how horrific that will be. Read your history and understand that it is entirely possible to be rendered obsolete by this kind of foolishness.

In fact, I think if she suceeds in her follies, I won't see another democratic party president until very late in my lifetime, if at all. But it isn't just her at fault at this point - SDs need to step in and do what they were appointed to do, which is steer the party clear of bad train wrecks due to shennigans.

I have come understand the wisdom of waiting for the next couple of weeks, to weaken her standing and soften the task of giving her an offer she can't refuse (behind the scenes). But if nothing happens and we are into June, then the party is for all purposes done for this election.

And that is Hillary's legacy to America - makes me throw up to think that an underhanded person caught up in her own personal ambition will throw this opportunity for the rest of us away like used trash.

[rucky]

21. It doesn't matter

if he has the magic number, it's not really up to her. she'll be out there with Ron Paul.

[roseBudd]

23. It's as if they think you can force people to want her.

[Tippy]

33. Well I have to agree.....

Her last-ditch efforts to win the Democratic nomination will rely on the “Race Chasm” and the trampling of democracy. David Sorita wrote about this back in March it was refferenced in "TPM" and "IN These Times" had an article....

One thing we can count on is she won't give up...she will do and say anything to win...the more she pushes the race issue the more raceist she will stir up...The three bomb threats in Indiana was just the beginning. Bill Clinton played the race card it was a deliberate action.

[AllentownJake]

3. Thank you

[ClassWarrior]

4. Okay, Obama's not the second coming. There's one thing we can ALL agree on.

What other opportunities do we have to mend bridges?

NGU.

[LibraLiz1973]

8. The things that we feel strongly about that Republicans would take away

A womans right to choose.
Poverty.
The first amendment.
Ending the war.


There are MANY things that our party can unite over.

[ClassWarrior]

13. I agree. We have an imperfect candidate, but an excellent opportunity. Let's...

...take advantage of it.

:toast:

NGU.

[LibraLiz1973]

14. No matter who he is, he is still MILES above John McCain

McCain is one scary m'fer.

[ClassWarrior]

15. Yup.

NGU.

[MH1]

22. Yes, exactly. Thank you for this post.

I am trying to hold my fire on Clinton for a few more days (I guess til after WV / Oregon).

But they need to cool the anti-Obama rhetoric and start coming around to helping a Democrat win the GE.

I do appreciate the Clinton supporters here who have been sane enough to stay off my ignore list - there's actually quite a few of them.

:toast:

[roseBudd]

20. Obama may be imperfect, but HRC is far from perfect with her unfavorability and dishonesty numbers

being so high.

[ClassWarrior]

27. I got news for you...

EVERYBODY's imperfect. :D

But I agree that Obama's the better choice, as I said, because of the OPPORTUNITY he represents for Progressives. Said CUNY Professor Frances Fox Piven on a recent Democracy Now!:

You know, in 1932, FDR didn’t run with a good program; he ran with the same program the Democrats had run with in 1924 and 1928, and that wasn’t a good program. But nevertheless, his rhetoric encouraged people who were suffering as a result of the Depression—working people, the unemployed—and helped to fuel the movements, which then forced FDR to support initiatives which he otherwise would not have supported, including the right to organize...

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/2/6/super_tuesday_roundtable_with_bill_fletcher

NGU.

[Genevieve]

5. Thank you, LL.

[C_U_L8R]

7. Let Hillary finish the job

she's a good way towards completely obliterating her political career...
why stop her when she's doing so well? Can she seal the deal on it?

:sarcasm:

[LibraLiz1973]

12. It IS upsetting to see what she is doing to her career

and the legacy of her husband.

There is a big difference between being a fighter and being on a suicide mission.


Every day that she continues harms her just as much as it harms our party.

[NJmaverick]

9. No question it's time to move on and look toward the GE

That's the prize and it's what we need to win

[BlooInBloo]

11. It's not over for Clinton until she ensures Obama loses to McCain.

[Clear Blue Sky]

25. She is hoping for a big Obama stumble or

some type of early "October surprise"...

[LibraLiz1973]

29. At this point he'd have to be photographed beating his wife

while wearing a "Thumbs up for W" t-shirt with a heroin needle sticking out of his arm
and Cheney giving him a high five.


He wont make a stumble big enough for what she needs.

[Clear Blue Sky]

40. I agree, unless the Clinton's help in this regard...

[derby378]

26. Do you think SNL's skewering of Hillary last night sealed her fate?

Man, that was brutal. I watched that with my jaw hanging open. But what Hillary said about white voters on May 7 pretty much left her open to it.

[C_U_L8R]

31. SNL was devastating. HRC is nothing but a joke now.

She really brought it all down own her self.
The psychological subtext of it all is fascinating.

[MikeDJohn]

28. Congratulations ! I hope most Hillary supporters soon think like you do.

Logic, reason, unity, winning against McSame in November. Very good post! My respectful compliments to you for your honesty.

[Lyric]

30. We're already torn, Liz.

Clinton stepping down will solve nothing if Obama doesn't either choose her VP, or offer her some other prominent position in his administration. The Obama supporters are focused on Win, Destroy the Clintons, then Piss on their Graves for good measure. Their idea of "healing" isn't a compromise, because that would involve Hillary Clinton being something other than Utterly Annihilated and sent to the political graveyard for DARING to oppose their "movement".

I don't know about you, but I don't take too kindly to being bullied and having the same bullshit "We won, you lost, tough shit, get over it!" memes that the right-wing has spewed for eight years thrown at me by the Obama groupies. If I feel pushed, I push back--and so do a lot of other Clinton supporters. I'm voting for the Dem nominee no matter what, but that's not the case for a lot of the less-loyal Dems who tend to be centrist.

I'm awfully glad that Obama isn't like his supporters. He's smart--he knows he needs Hillary's voters, and that a lot of those voters are "swing" voters who aren't going to just shut up, tolerate being painted as "uneducated losers", and vote for whoever the nominee is. He'll have to give them something in return to gain their loyalty, and he knows it. He'll either offer her the VP, Sec. of State, a Supreme Court nomination, or something else that will soothe her voters--otherwise, he'll lose a big chunk of them. Not the 50% that currently swear they won't vote for Obama, because a lot of that is just primary resentment--but even 15 or 20 percent would be enough to give McCain the presidency. We need EVERY Dem--and to GET every Dem, there has to be compromise.

I have no doubt at all that the reason Hillary's still in is to prove this reality to Obama, so that he makes the right choice when it's all said and done. Frankly, if he were to offer her the Supreme Court nomination, I'd gladly get behind him and leave this primary in the dust. She'd be able to do a lot more for civil rights as a Supreme Court justice than as a president. I'd rather see her there than anywhere--even the White House.

[MikeDJohn]

35. How can a President "offer" a Supreme Court nomination before someone dies?

Or before someone retires their post? Is there a retiring SCJ? Did I miss something?

Hillary was elected to serve as a Senator from NY. She already has a job when millions of Americans do not, she also has a great health insurance plan when 40+ million Americans do not!

Hillary doesn't need an appointment, she needs to get back to the job she was hired to do.

[Lyric]

38. Our liberal-leaning justices are getting old. They're waiting for a Dem President

and a Dem Senate so they can retire "safely". There is no doubt that at least one, more likely two, will retire if we win the general election. Clinton has the legal and legislative experience to fill that role very nicely; and all that Obama would have to say would be that he'd offered her a nice position in his administration, and she had accepted--no need for specifics. That would be enough to assuage the hurts of her "swing" voter supporters--at least enough to gain their support for the election.

As for your comment about "getting back to the job she was hired to do"--tell me again, WHO was it that stated that he had NO intention of running for the Presidency, and would instead serve out his very first Senate term? Clinton said the same thing. The difference is that she actually kept her word. Considering that Obama didn't keep *his* word, it's more than a little hypocritical to start bitching about Senators not "doing the job" they were "hired for".

Obama can't alienate her without risking the election. His supporters here might be too blinded by their own prejudices to see that, but I guarantee you that Obama sees it.

edit: typo

[LibraLiz1973]

36. I understand. But what you said in paragraph 3 is the most important thing:

Quote: I'm awfully glad that Obama isn't like his supporters."



Hang on to that. I know that many of the Senator Obama supporters here have been dreadful.
Those people do not represent the best, or even the largest portion, of our party.
They are internet bullies who thrive on creating chaos.
The "we won, you lost" threads ARE obnoxious. As ridiculous and petty as those threads
and responses are, the fact still remains that if we do not unite... President McCain is in our future.
THAT CAN NOT BE ALLOWED TO HAPPEN.

I agree that offering her a prominent role within his administration would be helpful to smoothing the waters over
with some of her supporters. Ultimately the decision is his.

I'm interested in his VP choice- I basically think it's a make or break it deal. If he chooses someone
without much OOMPH, I think we are screwed. But,I think Senator Obama knows that & is doing his best to
win us that election this November.

[Lyric]

42. Oh yes, I have done a lot of soul-searching in the past week

and I have come to recognize that the Obama-bullies here at DU are nothing like their candidate. Frankly he'd probably be embarrassed to see their behavior, and if asked his opinion, would say that he does not agree with their views. I know a lot of them think this is just "wink wink, nudge nudge" denial, and for a while I did too, but I don't anymore.

My biggest worry is not about Obama's personal character. My worry is that the actions and words of some of his supporters are going to alienate the very people Obama needs to win the general. It's tragic to think that we could lose the election because Obama supporters aren't willing to settle for anything less than the Utter Destruction of anything Clinton--even going so far as to claim that they won't vote for him if he chooses her for VP, or any other high-level administration position. Then they have the gall to question OTHER people's loyalty. Absolutely mind-boggling.

Obama can't win the general without some damage-control. His supporters have painted him as a Liberal Hero and Clinton as a Centrist Corporatist--which just makes him look like he's some leftie extremist when he actually isn't at all. He needs to find a way to get rid of that image, and fast--I predict he starts moving toward the center the minute he secures the nomination, and for exactly this reason. As for Clinton, if he wants her voters, he'll give her a respected position in his administration. Otherwise we're gonna lose when the "swing" Dems flip to McCain just like they did to Reagan. Obama has the potential to be another Kennedy OR another Mondale. Which one it will be rests entirely upon how well he treats Clinton, and whether or not his supporters are willing to suck it up and be supportive of his actions.

[Divernan]

44. I think she'd be a perfect SC Justice to promote corporate interests like she did for Walmart and

the Rose law firm. She'd hold the line for Roe V. Wade, but other than that she'd be pro-all the big interests she and Bill have made their millions from. And given Bill's wheeling and dealing at the national and international levels, she'd have to recuse herself from a lot of cases also.

She has no judicial experience at any state or federal level. I think we should have enough respect for our judicial system to require a minimum number of years on SOME bench, so a person's judicial temperament can be evaluated, prior to giving them a lifetime appointment to such a powerful institution.

You know the SC justices circulate draft opinions among themselves and a persuasively reasoned approach may get others to join in majority opinions. Witness HRC's failure with her health care initiative - she shut out all senators, congresspersons, including the highly knowledgeable and influential chairmen and staff of the relevant committees, from her closed door discussions. She had no interest in their input. She did not ask for any input; she did not circulate draft proposals for comments - it was take-it-or-leave-it; my way or the highway. She similarly shut out the medical profession. It's no wonder her proposal was DOA, and she offended so many people that there was no opportunity to revise and rewrite it. She would similarly isolate herself and offend the other liberal judges on the Court, while predictably sucking up to Scalia and Thompson for their pro-corporate views.

And god only knows what incompetents she would select for her clerks - because she selects staff based on her perceptions of their loyalty, not on their intelligence.

And god, I can just imagine her at oral argumets, rolling her eyes, waving her arms, insulting all the attorneys.

[Lyric]

46. She was the first lady of Arkansas.

Arkansas and Wal-Mart go together like peanut butter and jelly. Bashing her for being nice to Wal-Mart is about as naive and illogical as bashing the first lady of West Virginia for being buddies with the coal industry. I don't know what kind of idealistic planet you're living in, but here in the Really Real World, this is not exactly rocket science to understand. Governors and their spouses would be crucified and promptly kicked out of office for NOT supporting the major corporations and industries of their respective states. Do you think Obama supported the ridiculous ethanol industry any less as an Illinois legislator and national Senator?

The rest of your rant is nothing more than highly prejudiced conjecture and sour grapes--which is sad, considering that your candidate has all but won. The Repukes are the reason Hillary's healthcare reform failed--or have you conveniently forgotten that while spouting their talking points about her here at DU?

She'd be a terrific candidate for the SCOTUS because the Repukes can't filibuster her as "too liberal". Our own party has spent the past year bashing her for not being liberal ENOUGH, so that justification on their part has practically no credibility. That would make her easy to get through the confirmation process.

More importantly, Supreme Court justices (unlike Senators, governors, first ladies, and legislators) are beholden to NO-ONE but We The People for their jobs. And even then, we can't fire them unless they've committed some gross negligence or behaved in a provably corrupt manner. Remember David Souter--hailed as a conservative until he got to the bench and was suddenly free to rule his conscience, rather than in favor of corporate interests? He's become one of our most reliably liberal justices. The Supreme Court tends to bring out the "extremes" in its justices, because they have nothing to lose by indulging their truest beliefs when making their rulings. Clinton is a practical realist out of necessity of keeping herself in office as a legislator, but as a SCOTUS justice, the necessity of kow-towing to lobbyists and corporate interests in order to keep your job is not longer a factor.

What it comes down to is whether she really BELIEVES in the corporatist crap, or whether she does it (like all other legislators and Senators do it) because she feels like she has to in order to get elected. I think she does it because she has to, and if she didn't have to, we'd see an entirely different and far more liberal Hillary Clinton. You might not believe in her. That doesn't bother me a bit. I think your candidate believes in her, though--he's a lot smarter than DU'ers give him credit for, and a lot more realistic too.

[Colobo]

32. Great post. Unity is necessary.

[caligirl]

34. I take it you saw the snl skit from last night? that should finish her off,

the thousand re airings cable news will do all week long will be hard to miss. The damage to the Clinton philanthropic works will be huge. Bill needs to wake up to the damage and end this or his other work is finished as well. Millions to his foundation, money he gets trading on his name and position all will suffer harm.

[LibraLiz1973]

37. Yeah. I saw it- and that is part of why I think she needs to drop out

TODAY.


Enough is enough

[Willo]

39. The difference in Clinton supporters is in this statement

The choice is to continue a race that will not end well, or to bow
out as gracefully as possible now that the FACTS show that she can not
be elected.

Regardless to which ending Clinton decides for herself, each of her supporters has to decide which ending they support.
Unfortunately, I think she is creating a loyalty dilemma for some, whether unwittingly or by design.

Much respect to you, your decision and the OP, Libra.

[CrispyQ]

43. One of the most important elections in our country's history

& the dems put on this charade. When my tin foil hat heats up I think that the dems are in collusion with the repubs & the media in creating this circus of distraction so what's really going on gets no notice. I'll be voting dem in November, but not with heart.

The illusion of a two party political system is working out nicely for upper echelon. Too bad most people don't see that the two parties are not dems vs repubs, but rather, the haves vs the have-nots.

[eridani]

47. As a current Obama supporter, I'm fine with Clinton staying in the race, but IF AND ONLY IF

--she and Bill cut out constantly using REPUKE FRAMIMG.

[SeattleGirl]

48. I supported Edwards too, and was deeply saddened when he

suspended his campaign.

I then had to take a look at both Clinton and Obama, and after about 3 weeks, decided on Obama. I don't think he's the second coming, but I do think he's better than Clinton in terms of how he is conducting his campaign. I have, unfortunately, lost a lost of respect for Senator Clinton because of what I've seen in this campaign. She does need to stop, and stop now. It's getting really ugly.

[Perry Logan]

49. Maybe she just enjoys hearing the Obama people squeal.

[ClassWarrior]

51. Wow, how Progressive.

:eyes:

How about a little waterboarding while you're at it?

NGU.

[Ian_rd]

50. She is going to prove herself right.

Her only argument left is that Obama would lose against McCain. So now she is out to prove herself right - to destroy her own party's chances for nothing more than the ability to say after the General Election: "See, I told you he couldn't win. You should have let me have the nomination."

[Seabiscuit]

52. The cowardly cowering before the prospect of a Convention floor battle is a first

for the Democratic Party. Conventions were designed for precisely the kind of race that is occurring this year, and numerous Conventions have seen 2 or more candidates battle it out on the floor. This is the first year ever that the MSM and party leaders have piled on a contender demanding he/she drop out prior to the Convention. Ever. I find it appalling, revolting, and disgusting.

Shame, shame, shame on every person in this country who is advocating that Hillary Clinton "drop out". She and her delegates, super-delegates, and ordinary supporters deserve to be heard at the Convention.

[avenger64]

53. She's going to win West Virginia and Kentucky by huge margins...

.. she may even catch up in the popular vote, and will have won every major blue state except for Illinois (a fact you never hear from the corporate media who have chosen Obama as their anointed one). His delegate lead will come under a hundred, and the super-delegates can take a sober look at who has the best chance of winning.

And that's Clinton. It's not over.