What do Obama fans think of his relationship with Emil Jones?

[highplainsdem]

That's a name I've rarely seen mentioned here, and I wonder how many Obama supporters have never even heard of Emil Jones.

Here are links to stories with some interesting background, showing how Obama benefited from what is definitely old-school politics, with bill-jacking Jones arranged to make Obama a political star...and, apparently, earmarks in return.


Barack Obama: toxic mentors start to corrode pristine campaign
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article3602710.ece


Obama's Political "Godfather" In Illinois
Illinois Senate President Emil Jones Jr., An Old-School Politician, Called "Indispensable To Barack's Career"
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/03/31/politics/main3983147.shtml


Obama, Emil Jones and Earmarks
http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/3/23/224059/069

[KittyWampus]

1. What do YOU think?

[highplainsdem]

7. I'm asking Obama supporters. Jones was crucial to Obama's rise to political stardom.

Read the stories, and tell me what you think of the relationship and how Obama got so much attention so fast.

I really am curious to hear what people who are drawn by the message of hope and change and a new style of politics think of the way Obama was playing the political game there.

I'm guessing that a lot of Obama supporters never heard of Emil Jones, and that many who have still don't know about the bill-jacking and how Obama became such a star in Illinois politics, just 4 or 5 years ago.

[emilyg]

12. Jones said

"I'm going to make me a senator." He did.

[highplainsdem]

17. Yes, by making sure Obama was given credit for other state senators' work.

[proudleftists]

2. He was my state senator

I still like Obama despite some bad eggs that he has had to do business with, I am more concerned about some of the big money people behind him. Especially the Crown's & Pritzker's.

[NewHampshireDem]

22. Self-delete

wrong spot .. sorry

[madrchsod]

80. the democratic side of the pritzker family

and you know nothing can be done in chicago with out the blessing of the crown family..

if obama gets the presidency we are in for the spoils...that`s the way it is.




.

[patrice]

3. Was Obama supposed to create a movement out of nothing? It's called Politics and it's all about

calculations with the factors at work in your situation. HC does exactly the same thing. The difference is different constituencies: with her IWR vote HC showed us that her calculations were in bid for herself, FsOB, and PNAC.

With his opposition to the Invasion and Occupation of Iraq, Obama has shown us that his calculations are a bid for Us.

[murielm99]

43. If you had left out the Clinton bashing,

your post would have been a good start to answering the question that is going to be posed by the MSM and likely voters in the fall. We do need to address this, but in a more grownup way.

[patrice]

52. No personal insults + stating the facts =/= Clinton bashing.

I will not pretend about what her IWR vote meant. If we're supposed to cooperate, it would help to start with the truth, no matter how un-comfortable it is.

[DogPoundPup]

63. : > )

[patrice]

83. That's not necessary+It is harmful to those who are resisting a system that created the IWR.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rodeodance]

28. "go back to your bridge"--that is code for calling the OP a troll.

[highplainsdem]

34. I expected it, rodeodance. They don't want to discuss Obama's political background.

[rodeodance]

44. name-calling and Rovian tactic of distracting are what so many do these days. no discussion.

[patrice]

84. Some of us have decided in re backgrounds that it IS 6 of one 1/2 a dozen of the other, except for

which constituency a candidate's votes and sponsorships represent.

[davidinalameda]

36. is it?

oh my goodness

I didn't know that

you are just a fountain of information

[rodeodance]

45. and it is against DU rules

[ClassWarrior]

5. Do you think it's better to practice old-school politics...

...and get elected, so one has a chance to reform the system? Or never to get elected in the first place?

NGU.

[merh]

19. Shhhh, you know making sense doesn't work on everyone.

but I do adore you for being so reasonable and rational.

:hi:

NGU! :patriot:

[ClassWarrior]

20. The adoration is fawningly mutual.

:loveya:

NNNGU! :patriot:

[Ytzak]

6. Obama has more delegates, more super delegates, more pouplar vote...

It is time to move on the the General Election.

[highplainsdem]

11. You don't think this will be brought up during the GE?

The MSM and the GOP haven't done anything with this so far, but it would be naive to think they won't use it. This is the sort of story the Clintons were talking about when they mentioned October surprises, and the advantages of Hillary having been vetted already by all the scrutiny and attacks.

I'm also wondering what Obama fans think of his going along with the bill-jacking, with Emil Jones making sure Obama got the credit for bills other state senators had been working on for a long time, in some cases for years. The bill-jacking allowed Obama to point to an astonishingly successful record, when in fact his mentor and political godfather, the senate president, simply gave him the credit.

I hope Obama will bring a new style to politics. I just don't understand why he, personally, would have been comfortable with letting Jones do this when both of them knew other state senators had done almost all the work, while the glory and recognition were being given to Obama, quite deliberately, to make him a political star.

[chascarrillo]

24. Goddammit, just stop it. Stop stop stop stop stop,

[Ytzak]

87. Yes it will be brought up during the general eleciton.

But nothing can be done about that now. With five states left, neither Hillary Clinton nor those who support her can do anything to change the outcome.

There is no such thing as a candidate that doesn't have weaknessess and problems in his or her background. How do you fight something, you pull out and start keeping McCain's weaknessess out there. You go through the inevitable grieving process of having your candidate loose. I was there with John Edwards. I am ready to fight for Obama in every way I can to see that he gets elected, becasue it is in my best interest, this nations best interest, and Hillary Clinton's best interest to end the Republican conservatvie control of the exectuive branch.

[indimuse]

47. He does NOT have enough!

Game ON!

[kid a]

8. Please discuss this @ freerepublic.com, we have a nominee

[emilyg]

15. You're good at hiding your head in the sand.

[movonne]

33. Nobody hides there heads better than the hillary crowd...just listen

to yourselves..hillary still has a chance to win..please... and you guys have the nerve to call us cultists...

[LWolf]

65. We do not have a nominee.

You will not until superdelegates cast their vote at the convention.

Thanks for learning to count.

[Overseas]

9. Guess we'd better vote for Nader instead, eh? //nt

[dana_b]

10. doing the repubs work for them, eh?

What do you hope to gain by this? Do you think we're going to go "oh no! we better back Hillary then!!" So he has worked closely with someone who has done unethical things. Well, he is far from perfect and we know this. So are ANY of the candidates running. Hillary has a ton of stuff that hasn't been thoroughly explored and McCain, well, we know there's a lot of baggage for him. Let's not drag down Obama here, okay? Let's let the repubs do their own work. I'm sure Obama and his people are already thinking of ways to counteract this stuff.

[thunder rising]

13. You forgot Rezco and Wright. Apparently it didn't have an impact 2 months ago.

[bluestateguy]

14. Haven't heard of him.

Nor do I wish to.

This election is about the economy and the war. Let's talk about that.

[zulchzulu]

16. Emil Jones was his boss while State Senator. You don't pick who your boss is

Perhaps in some odd world where people can have a career and make it to the top without having a boss that they have to answer to, you can see that magical world in perhaps some of the best non-fiction children's books or maybe a comic book.

But in the Real World, people who engage in life don't get to pick their bosses.

[MikeDJohn]

57. Well, not unless you are a woman married to the President....

And want to run for the U S Senate without EVER HAVING BEEN ELECTED TO POLITICAL OFFICE!

Then you can be your own boss, and dream of being the POTUS 8 years later, the BIG BOSS!!!

[alteredstate]

18. I spent several days as Senator Jones' " volunteer chauffeur" before the SC primary

He's a great guy.

[sniffa]

21. What do I think?

I think he hasn't been looked at closely enough for his potential involvement in the murder of Vince Foster.

[RichardRay]

23. I think that everytime Senator Obama demonstrates that he really

does know how to be an 'effective politician' (i.e. - get shit done) then someone claims he's corrupt. But, everytime he takes a principled stand and behaves well, then someone claims he's naive and inexperienced.

Make up your mind...

[NewHampshireDem]

25. Step right up, get tommorow's right-wing talking points today!!

How many times are you going to post and repost this garbage? BTW, where's your link from the two-time-Bush-endorsing Chicago Tribune this time?

[Duder]

26. I think he should avoid Clinton associates...

'In the state Capitol in Springfield, Mr. Obama was guided through the political thicket by powerful mentors. It was not long into Mr. Obama’s first term when Mr. Mikva recalled getting a telephone call from Paul Simon, the recently retired United States senator. Mr. Mikva had become friends with Mr. Obama after returning from a stint as White House counsel for President Bill Clinton to teach law at the university.

Mr. Simon suggested Mr. Mikva play matchmaker between Mr. Obama and Emil Jones Jr., the powerful Democratic leader of the State Senate. For the better part of a quarter century, Mr. Mikva had played in a golfing foursome that included Mr. Jones.

“ ‘Say, our friend Barack Obama has a chance to push this campaign finance bill through,’ ” Mr. Mikva recalled Mr. Simon’s telling him. “ ‘Why don’t you call your friend Emil Jones and tell him how good he is.’ ”

Mr. Mikva obliged, and in 1998, Mr. Obama passed one of his signature achievements in the Illinois Senate: sweeping legislation that banned most gifts from lobbyists and the personal use of campaign money by state lawmakers.' --NYT

[rucky]

27. It disgusts me. He should drop out of the race immediately!

[billyoc]

29. Any relation to Paula? nt

just askin'... :rofl:

[Adelante]

30. Rezco trial running out on you?

Awwwww :cry:

[TomClash]

31. Why do you ask?

Might be a better question.

You don't get anywhere or do much in any walk of life if you don't help people who help you. What is illegal or unethical about rewarding your supporters or constituents? Don't you do that in your job?

Hillary didn't get that NY Senate seat on her good looks or brains. Ask Charlie Rangel. Then see how many of her earmarks flowed into Harlem.

[highplainsdem]

32. So far the replies seem to boil down to:

The ends justify the means, if it helped Obama.

Shut up -- he's the nominee already.

Never heard of Emil Jones and don't want to hear about him. (Or: Know very little about him and don't want to know more.)

The Clintons are old-school politicians, too, so you shouldn't mention Obama's record shows he's one! Look, I can mention some Clinton baggage!


Illuminating answers.

I'm still waiting to hear which of you think it's okay that Obama was willing to build his political career taking credit for other state senators' work, after he went to Jones and asked him to make him a US senator.

And would you think it was okay if Hillary had built a legislative record with 26 pieces of bill-jacked legislation a mentor had arranged for her to get credit for?

[Duder]

35. For me, at this point it boils down to...

[Hutzpa]

39. You writing a hit piece

and you expect us to help you out, you are amazing,
you think writing a post like this would help Clinton
when are you going to get it, its over remember that.

FUCK!!!

[Bensthename]

37. New Breaking News: Obama bought a candy bar from convicted fellon cashier at store...

:wow:

Getting link now..

[Hutzpa]

42. lol!!

bwahahahaha!!!!

:rofl:

[murielm99]

50. I hope you have a job. Your juvenile humor is not going to

get you any work as a stand-up comic.

I think the question needs to be taken seriously. McCain and the MSM will ask it in the fall.

[Bensthename]

54. Sure they will

that is how they play the game. look at how they made Kerry a war hero look "unpatriotic" and also "elitist".. It was pure bullshit.. And this post is also bullshit. That is all you people can do is create a false image of a candidate because you can not win on the real issues. It is disgusting fucking bullshit..

[murielm99]

71. Sure. Keep your head in the sand.

Watch McSame be sworn in in January.

[Egnever]

89. Absolutely right

[scheming daemons]

38. Every anti-Obama OP is officially a pro-McCain OP now....

... you might want to try freerepublic.com. They're more up your alley.

[rodeodance]

46. only in pea-brained bury your head in the sand 'logic'

[PurityOfEssence]

73. Because you say so, and brought to you by the "Because I say so" campaign

for the "I am who I say I am, not what I've done" candidate.

Authoritarian pronouncements don't scare many of us.

[EFerrari]

40. Why do people post this stuff?

How do you "feel" about AK state troopers taking women to the state house?

Can't we do better than this?

[murielm99]

41. Give it up.

Everyone here is going to call you a freeper and every other name in the book. The rest of the Obamites won't give you a straight answer.

I have been trying to tell people for months that Obama is hypocritical to say that his campaign is about hope and change when he used old-style politics to get where he is. The MSM is not going to ignore it. They will ignore Cindy McCain's money and influence, but not this.

Over the next few months, look for the names Mike Madigan, Lisa Madigan, Emil Jones, Jr., Rod Blagojevich, Dick Mell and Richard M. Daley. You will know more about Chicago and Illinois politics than you ever cared to, thanks to the MSM. These are very powerful people. No one does anything in Illinois if they get crosswise with any of them. Are they all corrupt? No. Several of them allow corruption to exist around them, but they keep their hands out of it. But the power is undeniable.

Many people do not know it, but Illinois is not part of the 50 state strategy, because the Madigans would not allow it. They won't share their power. I know that Rove left us alone in the last election, too. He knew he could not make any headway here. My theory is that the power structure here was too strong for him. I think it will be interesting. The MSM is so stupid that they will probably get it wrong. It would make more sense for them to stick to things like Brittany Spears and that stupid Kevin Bacon game. That is all they are good for.

Personally, I think Daley is a great mayor, and Lisa Madigan runs her office well. The Madigans fight with Governor Blagojevich, but a lot of that has been because Lisa wanted to be governor herself. The rumor is that now she does not want it so much because she has small children. Maybe later.

I don't think Obama is corrupt. I do know that he got where he is because of the system here, and he should be willing to acknowledge it. Hope and change my ass. Politics as usual is more like it. The thing wrong with that is the disillusion many Obama people will suffer because of it. I don't want it to hurt the party. I want us to win the Presidency.

Remember too that Truman turned out to be a very good President during a very difficult time. He was tainted by his association with the Pendergast machine.

This could turn out to be good for Illinois, regardless of the outcome. Maybe by shedding some light on the top politicians in this state, some of them will lose power or decide to spend more time with their families. The good candidates and politicians who give up after a few years of trying to fight the power structure just might make some headway.

In the meantime, we will have to think about how to answer questions like those posed in the OP. Ignoring them or calling names isn't going to help.

[Onlooker]

48. Obama's a smart politician

There are some Obama supporters who see him as the second coming of Christ, but I think most Obama supporters see him as an effective politician, who's an inspiring speaker, is slightly more liberal than Bill Clinton, and knows how to run a really good campaign. Yeah, he has some questionable connections, but what successful politician doesn't?

[klebean]

72. thank you Onlooker

Your moniker describes what I primarily do here - observe - and I endorse your sentiments.
I am a hopeful cynic. I am also an intelligent, educated, 50 year old white, bisexual mother
of two and grandmother to one. I studied Obama when I was behind Kucinich
(another imperfect politician), and learned that yes indeed Barack is a politician.
And yes, I wish every Barack supporter knew this, too.

This isn't the only place where I read other's comments w/re to the election.
It's a rare breath of fresh air to come across comments that reflect maturity
and an awareness of the bigger picture.

My conservative, republican father who is disappointed in McCain supports Obama, however
if Hillary gets the nom, he states he will have to vote for McCain. He's a republican - understandable voting strategy.

But Dems for either Hillary or Barack endorsing this strategy if their candidate doesn't get the nomination chips away
at my hope for America, and gives me reason to revert to my now quite comfortable state of cynicism.

Women concerned about misogyny thinking their vote for Hillary is going to help counter misogyny confound me.
The sexual minority who base their vote on whether a candidate supports gay marriage or civil unions
have me completely flummoxed.
Those who won't support the Dem nom b/c they attribute the actions and words of their opposing candidate's supporters
to the candidate them self - baffle me. Actually - in all cases I am more disappointed than baffled, flummoxed or confounded.

Again and again as I read threads of comments that devolve into ridiculous personal attacks, I regress further toward the
cynical belief that the shadow government of corporatocracy has succeeded in implementing idiocracy.

My disappointment harkens the shame I felt when I read the UK Mirror's headline the day after bush was "re-elected".

Call me elitist. Call me whatever you want. I don't care. I do care about my civil rights, my right to free expression,
and my reproductive freedom - all of which are hanging by a thread in this election cycle.

Bigger picture people...

[Onlooker]

77. An idiocracy, I agree

But, though I support Obama, I think a victory by Hillary would be a great victory for feminism. Up until her recent "white Americans" comment, I liked her a lot. But, that comment was low even for a rough and tumble political campaign. At any rate, we all have to stick together. Because one thing is absolutely certain, Republican policies and ideas are disastrous. They don't know what they're doing.

I think the personal attacks in DU trivialize what's at stake.

[seabeyond]

49. i dont care about jones. i dont care hillarys investment all those yr ago made way too much $

whatever. i care what kind of pres obama will be. i think he will be a good one. i think he will be better than either mccain or clinton, hence why i am voting for him.

jones does not matter one iota for what i want from obama

[L0oniX]

51. What do McHillary fans think of McCain's relationship with Vicki Iseman?

[DarienComp]

53. Always an associate of Obama, never Obama himself.

The smear train rolls on.

[Tinksrival]

55. I think there are and will be more people trying to take credit...

for Obama's rise. I trust Senator Durbin on Baracks character.

[BlooInBloo]

56. Still trying to dig up dirt - hahahah!

[jillan]

58. For all of you that want to hide your head in the sand, go ahead, you can be sure

the gopers already know all about this.

[MikeDJohn]

60. And this is important, why?

Do you want to list Mc Cain and the Keating 5???? Is THIS what kind of a campaign you want to have?

Enough of the OLD STYLE politics, please read the memo's our country is in a big mess, and McSame is NOT going to win, uless you keep feeding the American people garbage like this, which, by the way, IN NO WAY accuses Obama of being crooked.

[smoogatz]

68. Ever heard of the Keating Five?

You might want to Google it, just for yucks.

[Tatiana]

59. WOW! This really makes me want to go out and vote for Hillary! Thanks! n/t

[saltpoint]

61. Thanks ever so much for bringing the subject to the boards.

I'm sure it will be a destiny-crushing blow to the Obama campaign.

[smoogatz]

62. Why are you posting an attack on the Democratic nominee?

What's your agenda, exactly? But whatever—like I don't already know. In answer to your (idiotic) question: I hear Obama's paperboy knows a kid whose father's brother-in-law hung out with a guy whose uncle had a girlfriend who once stole a Slim-Jim from a 7-11. WHEN WILL OBAMA PUBLICLY REPUDIATE SHOPLIFTING?!??! WHEN!?!??!?!?!?!!!!!

[K Gardner]

64. WTF is wrong with you? This shit belongs at Free Republic.

[Faygo Kid]

66. Attack, attack, attack

His relationship with Jones was thoroughly chronicled in today's New York Times, and there's nothing but a political mentor relationship there.

It's too late for your candidate, and clearly you and too many others would rather tear down Obama (because he dared to win) than defeat George Bush's surrogate in November.

Pathetic.

[smoogatz]

67. You assume the OP's candidate is Hillary.

I'm guessing that's not actually the case.

[Faygo Kid]

69. Pretty fair assumption around here today.

Not sure what your guess is, but since the poster has no profile, it's indeed just a guess.

I hate when people pull their profiles. I find them of interest, if not very illuminating.

[Kixel]

70. Question for you

Have you actually been active in politics? Do you not realize that there are people you must associate with even if you don't agree with all they stand for?

I am sure there are very few political figures out there who have not had help from someone who is later deemed to be questionable. The fact is politics is power and a lot of people who involved are there for the power and not for the cause.

Bottom line-the race will be won by the undecideds and new voters. Mostly, they are going to be worried about the economy and the war in Iraq-both of which our Democratic Nominee will have the edge on.

So-my humble opinion? If you think most political candidates don't have to work with people of questionable ethics than you are incredibly naive.

[curious one]

74. Please stop it. Everyone needs to start from somewhere.

How any politician start his or her career? Look forward not backward.

[mckeown1128]

75. more right wing guilt by association bullsh$t.

Rove would be proud. Why attack the Democratic nominee when Clinton supporters can do it for you?

[tpsbmam]

76. I'll answer....

since I do think it'll come up and I think it's a fair question. I'll add my voice to those who feel that constant baiting about Obama has to stop, but I do think this is fair.

1. I think Obama did what most young, ambitious people would do. I've had mentors who others might criticize, too. I had one, a lovely man who was incredibly kind and helpful to me when I was very young (like 20), floundering, and desperately needed that. There was nothing wrong with him or unethical about him as far as I know, but he was old school -- when we went out to lunch, he swilled about 3 martinis every time. He was constantly networking and climbing business & social ladders. Some of the people he introduced me to weren't people I really wanted to know and didn't really respect. I was VERY young and went eagerly along as he helped me establish my adult footing, though I didn't follow through with the people I didn't respect and discussed my reasons with him. He always challenged me when he thought I was wrong but treated me with great respect, including respecting my decisions. I moved on in life to a whole different field but I never forgot his kindnesses to me and the fact that he saw something in me and was willing to take chance on me. And I kept in touch with him and considered him a fried to his dying day. Had he been a politician, I have no doubt that he'd have been an old school wheeling & dealing politician and I have no doubt I'd feel the same about him. Would I challenge him on some of his actions? Yup, as I did with my friend. But he'd have given me my start, the boost I needed.

2. I'd already read at least one of the articles you posted -- read it when I was trying to decide who to support. I DO think that people who've claimed Clinton has also done most of the same is fair -- some of it is just plain politics and playing the game and she has done the same. Was I happy with everything I read? Nope. I noted, though, that some of the people who criticize his time as an IL legislator now support him, some reluctantly and some enthusiastically. And for some of them, like me, it's comparative. I've made pretty clear since I've been here that Obama wasn't my first or even second choice. When I finally had to decide between him and Clinton, I read everything I could find about him -- already knew all I needed to about Clinton. Some of what I read I liked, some I didn't. But what it ultimately comes down to for me is there was more I liked about him than there was about Clinton. The comparison is fair since that's how many of us have reached our decisions about who to support in this manner. It goes without saying that I find zillions of things I like better about both of them than I do McCain.

3. The bit about his legislative successes coming in the last year is patently unfair. I point you to our Democrats in Washington today -- how many got worthwhile bills passed that they sponsored under the Republican majority? Hell, how many are getting worthwhile bills passed now? As for the last year, it's possible that Jones saw something in Obama that he didn't see in the others who'd been there for 100 years. I understand their pique, but it's just possible that he was the better person to get the job done.

4. I know LOTS of politicians and have my whole life (political family). I don't know a single one of them who wasn't ambitious and trying to meet his or her next goal....Hillary Clinton & John McCain included.

5. Any politician will have people who denounce him or her. Any politician has made enemies along the way and they can be counted on to be vocal during an election. Are some of the criticisms valid? I'm sure some are. But do I leave my understanding of that politician at the words of their critics? Of course not. For me, elections are a process and a significant part of the process is vetting the candidate myself. As I said above, I simply found more things I liked about him (as a candidate) then I did about Clinton. I note that a slew of Illinois politicians (including folks like the IL attorney general) endorsed Obama. Doesn't matter that they're from the same state -- there are also those who didn't. He got the endorsement of the Chicago Sun-Times, Chicago Defender, Chicago Tribune, Belleville News-Democrat, Peoria Journal Star, Rockford Register Star and other Illinois papers. They'd have endorsed Clinton if they thought he was truly shady, too inexperienced, to whatever the opposition would have us believe about him.

6. For me Jones is a non-issue. Wright was an issue, though it was blown way out of proportion. Rezko is an issue and it'll be used (though McCain has such dirty hands he and the Rethugs have to be careful with this one). Jones, not so much.

7. I add that I'm not a Jones constituent. They've reelected him for 30+ years -- perhaps someone should ask them why.

[highplainsdem]

90. Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I appreciate it.

I didn't post this as Obama-baiting, but to see (1) how many of his supporters had heard of Emil Jones, (2) whether they were aware this was likely to come up (I do hope Obama's campaign is ready to deal with it), and (3) whether they would think it mattered at all.

I was sorry to see so many other replies that were rude knee-jerk reactions, since this unfortunately is the sort of thing that encourages people to think there's a "cult of personality" that's a factor in the support for Obama.

I'm also aware that Obama has many thoughtful supporters, and I hope I've made it clear that I can see the difference (even when I'm irked with those who want to portray Hillary as a homicidal maniac who'd try to have Obama killed if she were the VP, or who call her "Hilldabeast" or a "harpy").

I DO think that people who've claimed Clinton has also done most of the same is fair -- some of it is just plain politics and playing the game and she has done the same. Was I happy with everything I read? Nope. I noted, though, that some of the people who criticize his time as an IL legislator now support him, some reluctantly and some enthusiastically. And for some of them, like me, it's comparative. I've made pretty clear since I've been here that Obama wasn't my first or even second choice. When I finally had to decide between him and Clinton, I read everything I could find about him -- already knew all I needed to about Clinton. Some of what I read I liked, some I didn't. But what it ultimately comes down to for me is there was more I liked about him than there was about Clinton. The comparison is fair since that's how many of us have reached our decisions about who to support in this manner. It goes without saying that I find zillions of things I like better about both of them than I do McCain.

This is how I reached my decision, too. And it's been dismaying to be accused by some here of being a racist when I have a multiracial extended family (African-American and Native American as well as Caucasian). I've been accused of not being a Democrat though I've always voted for Democrats and first worked for a Democratic campaign back when mailing fundraising letters meant using an addressograph. I've never seen Democrats so eager to try to drive other Democrats out of the party as some Obama supporters apparently are. It's very disappointing, and the last thing we need.

Anyway, I would have preferred Gore as our nominee. I believe global warming should be the most important issue, and I'd've loved a Gore/Edwards ticket. With Gore not in the race, I would rather have had Edwards as the nominee than either Obama or Clinton, both because of his concern for the poor and because I believe he would have been more electable in the GE. But I saw the media trying to ignore him as soon as he showed any interest in the presidency in 2004, though he'd been a favorite on cable news before then. It was clear they weren't going to give him much of a chance this year, either.

So it came down to a choice between Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, and I believed Hillary was more electable, both because of experience and because the MSM had already gleefully run her through the wringer, and she'd survived.

I'll vote for Obama, since he's apparently our nominee. But I won't pretend I'm not concerned about whether the MSM and the GOP are holding back on information they believe will hurt him. I wish this relationship with Emil Jones had already been given more attention, so we had more of an idea how much impact it might have.

I've had mentors who others might criticize, too.

Fair point, and so have I. Mentors can often make ethical and moral compromises their proteges don't like. The problems start if the proteges become actively involved in that unethical behavior.

It took Jones's clout to arrange the bill-jacking that suddenly created a lot of dazzling legislative "achievements" for Obama. But it couldn't have happened without Obama's acceptance and cooperation.

I doubt most people are familiar with the term "bill-jacking." But it isn't hard to explain. And most people have at least some experience with someone having stolen credit for something they've done, or something a friend of theirs has done. I've never heard of a favorable reaction to that sort of behavior.

And in some cases, according to the stories, Obama took the credit for bills others had been working on for years. This doesn't look good, and it also dovetails with the accusation that he's an elitist.

So it's a problem for him.

Question: Would you have agreed to take credit for someone else's work, to promote your own career, even if your mentor thought it was a good idea? (We'll probably never know whether the bill-jacking was Jones's idea or Obama's.) And would you have done so repeatedly, as Obama must have, to have ended up with credit for those 26 bills?

I believe this is going to be a huge stumbling block in how the Obama campaign deals with this part of his political history, and it might be why they're hoping it won't get much attention and they won't have to address it.

There's also evidence he was taking credit for things he shouldn't have taken credit for, well before he was Jones's protege. The LA Time said he took too much credit in his first book for getting the asbestos problem at Altgeld Gardens into the headlines, when a pre-existing group at Altgeld Gardens and a paper, the Chicago Reporter, deserved credit (and neither was mentioned in his book). And he's done this sort of thing as a US Senator, too. The Washington Post reported that in March of this year he tried to do this with a proposal Chris Dodd and Barney Frank had for the FHA. And in April of 2006 he told the media that he was one of a bipartisan group of senators who'd come up with a deal on new immigration policy -- senators "who've actually had to wake up early to try to hammer this stuff out," as Obama put it -- but there was a small problem. He'd included himself with the group of senators who'd "had to wake up early" when he decided to show up at that press conference, but he hadn't been at ANY of those negotiating sessions, which had been going on for weeks and had started at 7 AM. He just showed up in time for the press conference.

And yes, I know, Hillary has also embellished her resume.

But 26 bill-jackings in a year is pretty glaring. And the fact it started before that year and is still continuing in the US Senate is part of a worrisome pattern.

Especially when it's in stark contrast to the idealistic image he wants people to have of him.

I'll still vote for him. And I hope he'll surprise me by being less personally ambitious and more genuine that he seems to me, at this point.

But he is not my first choice -- he's the one I feel we're stuck with (and yes, that is how I feel, even though I know others adore him). And I won't pretend there aren't any aspects to his political history that could trip him up. No matter how much bashing I might get from some Obama supporters.

I am appreciative of the Obama supporters who will listen to people who have doubts about him, and who'll consider the possibility that he isn't the perfect candidate. It's hard to discuss anything with people who treat you like a heretic who has to be converted to the true faith, or destroyed, or driven away, just because you're not thrilled with a candidate.

Candidates come and go. I'm a member of the Democratic Party, not the Obama Party, or the Clinton Party.

[tpsbmam]

92. Well-reasoned legit concerns.....

This was the subject of my response to you, which I had half written when my stupid browser crashed. Have to dash now but will try to respond later. You make some good points and some with which I disagree. But I love being able to have some civil discourse here!!

[Elidor]

78. It's very interesting

Obama comes from a rough political environment, and he certainly knows how to use his elbows. He's not a babe in the woods. And now he tells us he wants to change the way politics is played, and bring it above the back-room deals and make government into something more noble than just a lowest-common denominator spectator sport. He wants to move beyond the very type of politics that he first thrived in.

I have no idea how sincere he is. I hope like hell that he's very sincere about all this. He'd certainly be an idiot to betray the massive trust people are giving him. There are times when I believe he's sincere, and there are times when I remember that plenty of people have said similar things and gone on to become self-serving party hacks.

[olkaz]

79. Emil Jones cost us Illinoisians Chief Illiniwek

I know, a lot of people disagree with me on this.

But Emil Jones FORCED the University of Illinois to drop Chief Illiniwek as it's symbol. There are many of us still very pissed off about that.

[boppers]

88. A university mascot?

This is an important issue to you?

[olkaz]

93. Among many, but yes.

It may not matter to you, but there are a lot of people in Illinois that loathe Jones for forcing this issue.

I guess you'd have to be here to understand. Here, if it doesn't have to do with Chicago, it doesn't matter. It makes everybody downstate sick.

Jones is scum, period.

[madrchsod]

81. two right wing links

and a link from cbs explaining how politics is done in every city,county,and state in the usa. that`s all you have?

[judasdisney]

82. What do Americans think of Bush Family's relationship with the Bin Ladens? A more relevant question

[patrice]

86. Thank You! nt

[Vinca]

85. About the same as we feel about Hillary's relationship with Webb Hubbell.

Ah, ah, ah Hsu! Excuse me for sneezing.

[Cheap_Trick]

91. man, I LOVE how these people like to pretend that

Hillary's political relationships are so pristine....