Imo, the corporate media is fixing to treat Clinton as badly as she exits

[EFerrari]

this primary contest as they did when she first came into it. If you recall, they were horrible to her -- with awful remarks about her body, her voice, her clothes. A lot of us, supporters or not, emailed and called to object over how she was being treated.

I think that it's important that we be just as active now as we were then -- now when some of her supporters may not be as active and when everyone is paying attention to Obama -- in defending her equal right to participate right up to the moment she drops out.

She'll be a big target and in no way is it acceptable that she be mistreated because she is a woman. (I'm not meaning SNL -- they're just doing what they do. Next week, they'll send up Obama just as high, and then, McCain and so on.) More than that stuff, I'm talking about Tweety and Company who get sloppy and go out of bounds. Clinton laid down track for other women. And, it would be a good thing to keep that track clear of casual and thoughtless bs for women who come after her.

Maybe I'm wrong and, the vultures will feast elsewhere. But I thought I'd bring it up just in case because the fact of her candidacy was a big step, an important one, and it would be good to honor that and not let it be spoiled by idiots. Fwiw.

[AllentownJake]

1. If she did the right thing

There would be no room for critism.

She certainly did herself no favors this week with PPT presentation and "hardworking white folks"

I'm hoping the 20-30 supers that declare for Obama this week gave her the message to tone it down and exit gracefully off the stage.

I'm a short male about the size of Kuccinuch...they treat him worse than they've ever treated Hillary.

[EFerrari]

4. This isn't about what she did. It's about how women are treated.

Those are really two separate issues, aren't they? They can weave together sometimes, but I'm concerned about the latter on this thread. :)

[AllentownJake]

6. I want her to be treated with respect going out

as much as any Hillary supporter out there but if she continues down the path she's going well she's going to get hammered and it won't be because she's a woman. All this will be is a lesson for future candidates on how not to leave a race you lost.

I would love to have her at the convention to take a bow speaking about her convictions and what she believes in and why the party is great. She's starting to even close the door to that.

[EFerrari]

10. I understand and, largely, agree. If she earns crit, that's one thing.

That's part of being a contender. But wife jokes, cleavage remarks, that kind of stuff isn't something I want my three nieces to be subjected to when they all run for President. lol

[earthlover]

36. I know this may be hard for Hillary supporters to fathom....

but would a male candidate who lost 12 primaries/caucuses in a row still be treated as a viable candidate by anyone? the press? the pundits? anyone?

Yes, not all media attention has been positive. However, it was the media who created Hillary as the front runner before 04 was even over! And it wasn't because they hated her.

[EFerrari]

41. I'm not a Clinton supporter. And I'm not talking about

a legitimate response to her campaign or to her actual behavior.

[K Gardner]

37. Honestly, I don't think it has anything to do with her being a woman. It has to

do with character and dignity, or lack thereof.

[EFerrari]

40. I'm not talking about a legitimate response to her choices or behavior. n/t

[gbrenna]

58. How about women who run bad campaigns and

say stupid things about sniper fire and white voters deserve to lose, and it's not sexist. She did not run a good campaign.

[EFerrari]

61. But I'm not talking about any of those things.

Really, go back and read the OP.

[Exilednight]

59. My grandmother use to say "treat people the way you want to be treated." How has Hillary ..........

treated people?

It has nothing to do with being a woman.

[EFerrari]

62. Reading incomprehension. I am not talking about Hillary Clinton

per se.

[ej510]

2. I got your back.

[EFerrari]

7. Thanks, neighbor!

:)

[WeDidIt]

3. She's opened herself up for huge criticism

I, for one, have little sympathy. Had she determined to go out with grace and class, I'd be screaming to high heaven as the media swoops in.

BTW, you forget, the media first propped her up as the inevitable nominee for nearly a year and has been propping her up since she lost Super Tuesday.

[EFerrari]

5. I'm not forgetting that the media tries to manipulate us, believe me.

I'm pointing to something different. My opinion of Clinton herself aside, when Clinton is disrespected generically because she is a woman, all women are disrespected. It's fine if they want to criticize her for her actions. It's not fine with me if they disrespect her as a women as she's preparing to end her campaign. Two different things entirely.

[rock]

15. Sure, everyone loves a classy quitter

Mmm. Maybe I got that wrong?

[anonymous171]

8. When a dem is down, the MSM just loves kicking them.

[EFerrari]

12. That's true. And when they heap sexist cr@p on top of that sundae,

it just makes it all that much harder for half of us.

[nomorewhopper]

9. imo clinton has irreparably damaged her reputation

people are going to set out to punish her for staying in this campaign for so long

i have always thought that she was given a "pass" and allowed to stay in the race since she was a clinton and the party brass didn't want to strongarm a clinton of the election.

the vultures are circling, and i do not think that it is going to be pretty. they will tear her flesh from the bone

[EFerrari]

13. To slice this up: Clinton will be attacked because she's a politician,

because she and Bill have been powerful, because she is a Democrat and because she is a woman. It's that last part that I'm asking people to be aware of and to reject -- in this thread.

[nomorewhopper]

14. i strongly disagree that the anti-clinton mood is sexist

[EFerrari]

18. I'm not claiming it is. I'm saying that there is a window here,

while she prepares to exit, where she will be vulnerable to the same stupidity lavished on her cleavage and dress as when she came into this contest. And that is unacceptable.

[nomorewhopper]

31. agreed

:)

[4themind]

11. I agree, any sexist talk is out of bounds like the..

"iron my shirt" remarks in New Hampshire, but as others have said, most of the attention that I see among the punditry nowadays "and I admit that's not a metric I can reproduce and defend, its just my own sense, are based in the problems with her campaign strategy and message, and relatively less openly expressed sexism. But,as you mentioned in your OP , however I do agree that we should be vigilant against sexist remarks.

[EFerrari]

16. If it doesn't happen, great. We'll have learned something

about how the media responds to women running for a national office. If it does happen, we'll be ready to tell them where to stuff it. :shrug:

[Catherina]

17. If I trusted Clinton to exit gracefully, I'd be there with you

but I don't trust her. Everytime you cut Clinton a break, she recharges with an even more disturbing battle cry. I think she's been given more slack for being a woman and a former first lady. If that were a man up there instead of a Former First Lady, he'd have been dragged off or ignored long ago.

[EFerrari]

21. But it's not cutting her a break to expect her to be treated

with the same respect a male candidate is treated, is it?

And I agree that were she not a Clinton, she'd be gone by now.

This isn't so much about her or her campaign as it is about how we can expect women to be treated by the media. I must not be saying this very well.

[Catherina]

27. You said it well

It's just difficult to rally to her side when she's being so despicable. I've reached the point where I resent the caricature she's created, for generations to come, of how a woman hits below the belt, knees you and then yells "don't you dare hit me" or manipulatively sobs so people will rush to her aid against those big, bad boys.

Then there's the other thing like focusing on her appearance and wardrobe. I don't see that changing because they do it to everyone. People joked about Penn's sweaters, his girth and Kucinich's ears so why should her pantsuits be off limits?

I have to think about it a while and ruminate if your question and my answers are really about Clinton or if they're about women. My problem right now is that if a woman like Pelosi or Boxer were up there, I don't see them being treated that way. It's hard to answer because Hillary's an expert at bringing uneccessary drama into any equation and then everyone has to rally around to clean up her mess. I may be bitter because I did it for 8 years only to find out that most of the things I defended her against weren't lies or mistreatment. I'll give this some hard thought, not for Hillary but for the women who come after her.

[EFerrari]

29. I'm trying to do something that is hard for me.

Trying to distinguish between herself, her campaign and how the media interacts with her. I feel pretty strongly about all three, actually -- as you know, by now.

But, they are three different realms. And no matter what she did in the first two -- and no matter how strongly I feel about them -- the third one is the one that will ultimately matter for other women who run for office.

[Catherina]

33. I have a long drive this afternoon. I'll think about it

It's hard for me too. It's hard to see the demarcation line between where she's being unfairly attacked and where she brought thesee things on herself that another person wouldn't have.

[BlooInBloo]

19. Yaaah.... I'm not blaming this one on the media. Gotta have clean hands to get that call.

[EFerrari]

25. I'm not blaming the media, yet. But if they move from attacking her choices

to attacking her pantsuit, they're going to hear from me.

[BlooInBloo]

26. That's fair.

[flor de jasmim]

20. I hope she is excoriated for her words but not diminished for her pantsuits, hair, makeup,

wrinkles, or anything else that screams gender bias.

But as for her words which play into Republican playbooks and divide Americans, she should be made to feel the full force of the disgust of those of us who feel she has done harm to the Party and to our ideals.

[EFerrari]

23. And that's exactly what I've been trying to say.

Excoriate me for what I do, not for my gender. One is fair public discourse; the other is simply discrimination.

[JerseygirlCT]

22. I don't mind criticism of her behavior, her ideas, her campaign

strategy... all that remains fair play as far as I'm concerned.

It's the personal stuff, the "she's a woman" stuff that really has no place, and never did.

I think she's behaved *horribly* throughout this campaign. She set her own reputation back miles, IMO. And I'm not willing to simply give that a pass as far as the historical record goes.

But that's got nothing whatsoever to do with her gender, and everything to do with her choices.

[EFerrari]

24. You get it, exactly.

:)

[ekwhite]

28. It will be hard to defend her after all she has done

But you make a good point. We need to defend her not for her, but for the women who come after her. Of course, Tweety needs to be slapped down regularly for his idiocy.

[EFerrari]

30. LOL. I can't stand him and had to stop watching cartoons

because they remind me of him.

Fwiw, Hillary Clinton doesn't need me or anyone to defend her. She's very capable and can do that just fine for herself.

But, women's participation in national politics does deserve respect and so, defending from stupidity that we can't allow to become business as usual.

[tularetom]

32. As a human being she deserves the respect anyone is due

As a pandering race baiting politician she has earned the scorn of every thinking American.

That has nothing to do with pantsuits, hair, the size of her butt, or anything else. Those are off limits or should be.

But the lies, the racial stereotypes, the pandering - big targets and well deserved.

To me it's a shame that the first woman to seriously contend for the country's highest office had to resort to the same exclusionary tactics that kept women out for so long.

[EFerrari]

43. I know, Tom But both of those aspects are in play.

For the one, I'll be the first to challenge the stuff out of her campaign.

For the other, there's no way it can get a pass, either.

[Window]

34. I certainly hope not, but if they do, we need to put both feet in their asses.

[EFerrari]

42. Thank you!.

lol

[Window]

45. You are most welcome.

:hi:

[crankychatter]

35. you tell ME when and IF.... I'll defend Clinton with Flamethrowers

I defer to your judgement in this matter

if it happens as you predict... you cite the incident and manner...

I'll not only email anyone you say to email... I'll post it up on every craigslist and blog in America... calling for others to do the same

and you know how much I can't abide Clinton

but I vote for women... it's part of my "so I don't have to think" formula

two dems... the woman gets my vote... for the last 35 years... right or wrong

just. not. this. time

so just holler... I'm yours.... as stated... I defer to your judgement

[EFerrari]

44. Well, thank you, crankychatter.

:)

[SoCalDem]

38. part of the problem is the TYPE of media we have

Other than Fox (which is totally in the tank for the RNC), ALL the other media outlets just chase the hype & glitz, rather than the actual story.. They have HOURS of dead air to fill, and lots of salaries to pay.

Few remember this, but when CNN started out, they would just AIR stuff...stuff from all over the world..mostly without commentary, since they HAD NO "commentators".. They had news people who had been hired away from the big-three at that time.. There were no "shows"...no "themes"..just raw news footage from all over the world. We were expected to tune in, at any time of the day or night and see something we had not seen before, watch it, and decide for ourselves what to make of it.

Fast forward to now, and we have nothing even remotely resembling "news".. we have "People/TMZ/InsideEdition/ET-political style"...masquerading as "news"..

Just because people have microphones & are sitting at a desk, they are not necessarily showing us the news..

Bernie Shaw saw the handwriting on the wall...and QUIT.

politicians know how to "use" the media we have, and the media we have knows how to "use" the pols. It's a little dance they do..

The media may have seemed harder on HRC at the beginning, but that was because they all "knew" she would win, and they needed to tweak her a bit, so they "looked" impartial.....But even with the tweaking, for MONTHS she was treated as the Queen Bee, heiress to the throne.

Once she stumbled, though, they saw an opportunity for what they love the most CONFLICT..and they were off & running..

Obama messed up their plan by running the table (and 12-in-a-row)...now they either had to eviscerate her and praise only him..or they could keep playing the "game"..the game being "she's close...she could still do it"..

Had they run with the math every day for a month, people would have "gotten it"..but then they would have also tuned out, and found something else to do, other than tune in to see what happened today on the campaign trail..

[EFerrari]

47. I couldn't agree more.

The type of media we have has nothing to do with informing the public, at all, but all about shaping public opinion against our better interests as far as I can tell.

[saltpoint]

39. I hope the points registered against her campaign tactics can be

considered apart from Hillary Diane Rodham-Clinton as a person.

She is still a U.S. Senator from New York, and her constiuents like her.

I agree with other DU posts also on the state of her campaign. Between now and the Oregon vote, for example, we will get to see a lot about what makes Hillary Clinton tick.

[EFerrari]

48. Sure we will. But few of us would agree for her to be insulted

because she's a woman -- in the same way we'd reject attacks on a gay or black candidate. That's the only thing I mean.

Confront the person on just grounds, not on the regressive cr@p we can expect from the Noise Machine that just degrades our public conversation.

[saltpoint]

50. I hear you. The media is such a pack of hyenas. Not every single

person in the media, but by and large, the mainstream 24-hour folks.

I've been trying to wean off the MSM as much as possible.

If we could have more of Amy Goodman and Bill Moyers and less of Brit Hume and Katie Couric, etc.

[EFerrari]

52. A funky little benefit from being subjected to the Humes of our media

is that we can learn to predict their bs.

Like you, I watch very little of their propaganda. But, having watched them for much too long, I can see the set up coming. In the same way we recognize that they're trying to Howard Dean Obama, we can see a window were Clinton may be attacked, not on the merits, but on the right wing buzzers that will titillate their base.

My opinion or feeling about Clinton aside, it's so predictable. And those are the interstices of the fake "culture war" -- fake because most Americans value family, community, civil rights and democracy. That's an even bigger fake than the War on Terra, isn't it?

It just seems to me that the RW noisemakers will find this opportunity to slam a woman who dared trespass into a largely "male" preserve irresistible. She will only be the occasion, not the subject, of their bulleria. It would be nice to deny them that bit of fakery.

[saltpoint]

57. They are a huge part of the problem. I did single out Brit, as I often do,

because he bolted from ABC, which god knows is already far too conservative, to go to FOX, which is downright distortional.

So I pick on him more than the others, but many others are just as bad.

As for Hillary Clinton, I think she needs to do some individual work. She wanted the job and might even have been a good president for all I know. But we heard her deeper self thru some very ugly surrogates' voices who thought that racial division was an acceptable campaign modality against an Afro American.

Bob Herbert, in Saturday's New York TIMES, let Mrs. Clinton have it. I have to say I agreed with evrything he said.

Obama may make some kind of offer to Clinton to assist her in saving face. I don't think it's going to be the vice presidency. I think an ambassadorship, or maybe a special appointment to rescue New Orleans -- something like that which would acknowledge her role on the big stage but not give her, her husband, or their political circle much access to the workings of the next administration.

I think Gov. Sebelius and Speaker Pelosi, and maybe Gov. Napolitano will all three be on Obama's shortlist. Napolitano less likely than the other two because of the immigration role she plays in a border state.

I'm all for granting dignity to Hillary Clinton but I want to see a reciprocal gesture.

[Vinca]

46. The choice is Hillary's. She can go out as a respected politician

or a late night talk show joke. Given the way Wolfson and McAuliffe were talking on the Sunday shows, I'm guessing it's the latter.

[EFerrari]

49. But the grounds upon which she's attacked are not her choice at all.

I'm just asking people to be a little aware of how she is talked about during this last phase.

There is plenty of legitimate criticism that can be leveled. And then, there is sexist cr@p that, where it comes up, progressives need to object to, imho.

[Radio_Lady]

55. Sfexpat, I tried to PM you... but thanks for your PM.

I'm blocked from sending you messages. Don't know why, but it's OK.

Yours is a very wise and interesting thread. I've gotten deeply involved with a neat volunteer opportunity at www.forwardstride.org

It will be taking up much of my time throughout the summer.

Thanks for posting your message on the DU.

Cordially,

Radio Lady Ellen Kimball in Oregon

[KittyWampus]

51. I think they will help her attempts to be the victim and use that to splinter older white women

from Democrats in the GE.

[EFerrari]

60. You may be right about that. n/t

[L0oniX]

53. She no longer has the cash for advertisement and that's the bottom line for networks.

[Irishonly]

54. K&R

I agree with what you stated. I was horrified at what Tweety was saying about her and it's one of the reasons I stopped watching his show. I have also written to Countdown asking that the show return to its original format of keeping track of rethugs. As much as I hate how she has run her campaign the MSM has no right to try to destroy her. She has blazed the trail.

[Ice-9]

56. Thanks for that.

This is a particularly good point: "Clinton laid down track for other women." Whatever you think of candidate Clinton, you have to agree that "la(ying) down track for other women" is a good legacy. The next time a woman runs for the presidency there won't be so much distraction with questions about her gender ("Will men vote for her???" etc.). Because of Senator Clinton, the next candidate will be better positioned to move straight to the issues and get an up-or-down vote on her qualifications -- a luxury that male candidates have always enjoyed and that every candidate in our country deserves.

:thumbsup: