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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 06:04 PM
Original message
Reviled, White and Blue: DU on the Eve of the West Virginia and Kentucky Primaries
“The rest of the country will have to show poor backward WV the way.”


That is an actual quote from DU today. Yes, indeed. Poor, as in poverty stricken. Only Mississippi is poorer. Reminds me of one of the stories from Hard Times Studs Turkel’s book about the Depression. A woman tells about how her employer, a white woman in Texas would always give something to transient Blacks who stopped at the house to beg but would never donate any food or clothing to out of work whites who came asking for help. The maid was the one who would sneak food to the white hobos. The employer treated the white victims of poverty like scum. Even though millions of Americans were in the same boat, when it happened to whites, it was proof of inferior character, a lack of ambition, inbreeding, poor genetic material, God’s disfavor. America felt sorry for minorities that suffered. It felt ashamed of whites that suffered.

America is ashamed of West Virginia, because the people there are poor and have limited access to education. Hell, if they were allowed decent educations, some of them might rebel against their destinies, which is to spend their lives working away in a coal mine where their fathers and grandfathers worked (and died).

I guess I have seen just about everything. People at DU are now justifying Obama’s decision not to campaign in West Virginia, because the blue collar white citizens of that state have one of the lowest education and income levels in the country. (Yes, I have seen people quote the statistics when asked to justify his decision to write off the state) That makes them unworthy of hearing his message of hope. They reckon West Virginians can’t understand words of more than two syllables. Or maybe, folks in that mountainous state are just too damn bigoted to see beyond his skin color. Why, it’s almost as dark as that of the average coal miner after a shift underground.



West Virginia and, to a lesser extent, Kentucky lives at the mercy of Big Coal, which has held all the cards under Bush/Cheney. Coal gets to topple mountains. It gets to kill miners. It gets to pollute waterways. The Martin County Coal Sludge Spill was 30 times larger than the Exxon Valdez spill.

http://www.appalshop.org/sludge/video/Sludge%20Trailer%20Low.mov

It is no wonder that some citizens in Kentucky and West Virginia do not trust the government or men in suits.

Blue collar whites in these states didn’t trust Kerry or Gore, either. That is why the Republicans won there in 2000 and 2004. Since DUers claim that Obama isn’t doing well in this area because this is “the heart of racism country” (actual DU quote from today. Funny, I always thought the heart of racism country was farther south), I guess that must mean that Kerry and Gore were Black, and we just didn’t notice. And Toni Morrison was wrong, and Bill Clinton who won West Virginia and Kentucky wasn’t the first African-American president , he was whiter than all-purpose flour.

All those West Virginians who are not voting for Clinton because they are scared of Obama's half white and half Black ancestry and the ones who are not stupid, even though they did not get to go to college, are probably mad as hell at what they people in the mainstream media are writing and saying about them today. If we could bottle that anger and use it constructively, we might finally be able to come up with a decent workers' revolution in this country.

The white blue collar workers in West Virginia have sure tried in the past.


The Mine Wars of West Virginia in which mine owners hired gunmen to kill strikers and in which the President of the United States eventually sent in armed troops to bust up the final strike show that the coal miners of West Virginia have a lot of reason’s to distrust authority.

http://www.wvculture.org/hiStory/minewars.html

As the intimidation by mine guards increased, national labor leaders, including Mary Harris "Mother" Jones, began arriving on the scene. Jones, a native of Ireland, was already a major force in the American labor movement before first coming to West Virginia during the 1897 strikes. Although she reported the year of her birth as 1830, recent research indicates she was probably born in 1845. As a leader of the UMWA's efforts to organize the state, Jones became known for her fiery (and often obscene) verbal attacks on coal operators and politicians.

Not only did the UMWA send speechmakers, it also contributed large amounts of weapons and ammunition. On September 2, Governor William E. Glasscock imposed martial law, dispatching 1,200 state militia to disarm both the miners and mine guards. Over the course of the strike, Glasscock sent in troops on three different occasions.

Both sides committed violent acts, the most notorious of which occurred on the night of February 7, 1913. An armored train, nicknamed the "Bull Moose Special," led by coal operator Quin Morton and Kanawha County Sheriff Bonner Hill, rolled through a miners' tent colony at Holly Grove on Paint Creek. Mine guards opened fire from the train, killing striker Cesco Estep. After the incident, Morton supposedly wanted to "go back and give them another round." Hill and others talked him out of it. In retaliation, miners attacked a mine guard encampment at Mucklow, present Gallagher. In a battle which lasted several hours, at least sixteen people died, mostly mine guards.


I have written before about the remarkable success which Clinton has shown in attracting the support of the portion of the Democratic base which reveres the memory of Mary “Mother” Jones. Clinton’s campaign style and the years of media attacks which she has weathered make her a modern day Mother Jones like figure in the eyes of many blue collar workers. Some Obama supporters on this board call this “ignorance”, however the fact that they and Obama do not understand the dreams and hopes of this important sector of the American voting public is a mark of their ignorance. Candidates must familiarize themselves with the language of the electorate. To court Spanish speakers, you speak Spanish. To court those who view authority and government with hostility and suspicion, you show yourself willing to challenge the status quo and not back down even in the face of extreme adversity. Unfortunately, Obama’s response to issues like Wright, his willingness to do the gentlemanly or conciliatory thing is not seen as a positive by voters who have little left but their pride. They would actually prefer a candidate who wags his finger at the press and tells them “I will not play your games”, because that is what the citizens of West Virginia has been trying to say for over a hundred years—when they are not being shot at or forced from their homes.

In another thread, I already mentioned that West Virginia was the only state to succeed from its own state—Virginia—and join the Union during the Civil War and agree to end slavery voluntarily. I think that this says something about West Virginia that ought to give those who call the state nothing but a breeding ground for the KKK.

I have read a lot of people in the national press and as many people at DU claim that since West Virginia favors Clinton and since other majority White states favor Obama, and since Obama is Black and Clinton is white, it must mean that West Virginia does not like Black candidates. I have seen no scientific proof for this. Kerry and Gore’s dismal showings in West Virginia and Kentucky after Bill Clinton’s success (and don’t forget, Dukakis won over West Virginia, too, by talking issues) seems to suggest that there is more at play here than race. Character of the candidates seems to be important, too.

There is another way to consider the issue of race, too. African-Americans overwhelmingly support Obama. Perhaps they believe that a candidate who is closer to them ethnically will also understand their needs and wants and will help them more as president. Since the people in West Virginia are just like those in Mississippi----mired in chronic poverty, with no hope of escape since they have no education opportunities and they live in a landscape being destroyed by industrial pollution---perhaps they are also making the mistake of believing that the candidate who appears the most like them will understand their problems and remember them in office and help them. Mississippi and West Virginia need help more than most other states, so both of them select the candidate who wears their face, because they believe that they can trust that person not to turn away. Maybe what some are calling "racism" is desperation.

In that case, by refusing to visit West Virgina, Obama did the wrong thing. A Liberation Theologist would have counseled him that the poor want to be given hope more than anything else. Poor people live with mind numbing soul wracking despair. Had he ignored the polls as Rev. Jesse Jackson did in 1988 and come to the state and said "It doesn't matter if you vote for me. I still want to be your president." Had be given a blockbuster speech on national TV highlighting Appalachian poverty, it would have unified the country.

Why didn't he?
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Bicoastal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
1. Obama didn't refuse to campaign in WV any more than Hillary refused to campaign in SC...
...during the last days of that state's primary.

He's there today--but like Hillary, he decided long ago to spend the most time campaigning in the states he'd have the best chance of changing the public's mind in.
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pkz Donating Member (595 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. He was here
two times before this week too.

Look...a lot of Obama not coming into small towns in WV has to do with the county Democratic parties too.

I did not attend a event this evening, just because the county dissed a US Senator and would not let him speak in support of Obama.
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #4
84. once
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
17. So he loses in big states because he can't change folks minds in large blue states?
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Bicoastal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Acually, he HAS changed folks minds in large blue states. He now has CA and NJ polling on his side.
You lose.
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democracy1st Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 04:54 AM
Response to Reply #17
57. Did the Repubs help her win the pop count in Texas?
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #1
83. yes he did
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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 06:14 PM
Response to Original message
2. Dupe.
Edited on Mon May-12-08 06:16 PM by BushDespiser12
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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 06:15 PM
Response to Original message
3. Thanks. But I'll stick with Obama's campaign strategists over your lengthy suppositions.
He and his team seem to have a very capable grasp of reality regarding what can be accomplished.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
5. "In that case, by refusing to visit West Virgina, Obama did the wrong thing." Your OP is offensive.
"America is ashamed of West Virginia, because the people there are poor and have limited access to education."

What utter BS!


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galaxy21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. I can understand the resentment people feel towards low information voters
like the people in WV who just assume Obama is a Muslim becuase 'they were told.'

Not only do these voters vote against they're own economic issues (by going republican)and doom us all... they then have the nerve to complain about how bad their lives are because of it...


If WV and Kentucky do go red this year (and they likely will) and Mccain wins, the people there will probably be the first to complain about the continuing iraq war and the declining economy, despite the fact they chose to vote for the status quo candidate.


What I'm saying is: its difficult to feel sorry for people who don't want to help themselves.
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Bake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #7
88. It's so much easier to resent them than it is to come up with a message that connects with them.
Dems have been writing off blocs of voters for decades. And the Pukes have been picking them up, one by one.

How about showing them how voting Dem IS in their interest, instead of looking down your damn nose at them?

Bake
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galaxy21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #88
100. Hasn't Obama been trying to do that?
And look where its got him.
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Bake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #100
108. Actually, no he hasn't.
Talking about "hope" doesn't cut it. He (or his surrogates) have been busy throwing the race card at every opportunity, and addressing the adoring stadium crowds filled with urbanites. He hasn't directed ANY message to these voters.

Bake
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #88
101. WVA remains 10-15 years behind the times, that can't be changed by 1 years campaigning
as someone who was born there, grew up there and STILL owns property there,
I can say that this state changes VERY slowly.

The young people leave in droves.
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Bake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #101
107. Seems to me that's about how long the Dems have been ignoring them.
Bake
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theHandpuppet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. BS, huh?
All you have to do is scan the first few pages of GDP to find your evidence. The sheer number of vile, bigoted threads and posts against Appalachian people has written what has to be among the most shameful chapters in DU history -- and is revealing as hell.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Where is GDP referenced in the quotes cited? n/t
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jaybeat Donating Member (729 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. And GD:P is the responsibility of the Obama campaign... how? (nt)
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Obama taught us you are what your supporters say - remember Obama's playing the SC race card?
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Gore1FL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #18
40. Obama taught us you are what your supporters say?
like nominee?
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 04:17 AM
Response to Reply #18
55. I remember it very well.
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cui bono Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #9
23. Obama is posting in GD-P???

Wow!

Link?

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democracy1st Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 04:59 AM
Response to Reply #9
58. Give it a break your candidate gave up on the black vote!
In order to pursue a tactic the GOP has used for decades
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #9
102. here's WVA people's own words: Home of the Hillarybillies (video)
and they don't call themselves Appalachian people, they have states they live in
and thats what they refer to.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=385&topic_id=131196&mesg_id=131196
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satireV Donating Member (497 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #9
109. The fish rots from the head. (eof)
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Bake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #5
86. A thoughtful, well-reasoned OP, and all you can say is "utter BS?"
I suppose you'd rather just stick with the "WV is a bunch of ignorant racists" theme. Yeah, that's much easier, isn't it.

Bake
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jazzjunkysue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 06:24 PM
Response to Original message
6. His time is so prescious, that they have to make hard decisions based on delegates.
WV just doesn't have that many so, He's smart to invest his time where the larger delegate count is. He also knows this is not going to be a good state for him and so he's better off going somehwere to coax some independents over to his sied.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 06:29 PM
Response to Original message
8. From a Pragmatic Standpoint
It wouldn't be cost effective.

It's sad to see the way the Invisible People are spoken of, but I can understand it. We abandoned them somewhere around the time "greed is good."
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Saturday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
11. I wonder what percentage the Black population is in WV?
That might hold your answer.
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. Guess what OR's and WA's and SD's black populations are?
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democracy1st Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 05:01 AM
Response to Reply #11
59. you trying to say the Democratic party doesn't need the black vote ?
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Bake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #59
87. No, I think what the poster is saying is that Dems don't need the poor blue-collar white vote
A suggestion, by the way, that I find offensive.

Bake
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 06:36 AM
Response to Reply #11
70. What difference does that make?
You're really reaching on that one.
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IsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 06:50 PM
Response to Original message
12. From my understanding Omama is there today, so quit spreading a lie. Obama has also been there in
the past. Why do people just make shit up?
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 04:05 AM
Response to Reply #12
52. They are a few token visits.
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DinahMoeHum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #52
112. Do 12 field offices in WV constitute a "token visit"?
(11 field offices plus the HQ in Charleston)

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/05/13/west_virginia/

(snip)
...the way Obama gives up on a state bears only a vague resemblance to the way Clinton conceded a few dozen to him back in February (a decision that helped put her in a delegate hole that West Virginia won't really help dig her out of). His campaign has field offices in 11 towns, plus a headquarters in the capital, and the backing of three statewide elected politicians, one of whom spent Monday barnstorming the state by helicopter to fire up Obama voters. An ad featuring Obama's biography was in heavy rotation on local cable stations. If Clinton had put that much effort into places like North Dakota, Kansas and Louisiana a few months ago, winning West Virginia might actually be significant for her
(snip)

:kick:
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 06:37 AM
Response to Reply #12
72. What excuse for his supporters?
The people who have made such venomous comments and accusations?
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 06:57 PM
Response to Original message
13. About your BS claim, Obama campaigning in WV:
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jaybeat Donating Member (729 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 07:03 PM
Response to Original message
14. There was a thread about mountain top removal
A while back...

Obama said he was against it. Period. Bad for the environment, bad for the local communities, just plain bad.

Clinton, IIRC, hemmed and hawed and nuanced but wouldn't come out against it. The OP then pointed out contributions SHE has taken from BIG COAL.

So, if BIG COAL ripping people off, destroying communities, laying waste to the environment and KILLING POOR PEOPLE in WEST F'ING VIRGINIA is a concern, then maybe, just MAYBE, you should get your F'ing FACTS straight before you "sup'hose" that Barack Obama might not, in fact, be the best thing (short of John Edwards, anyway) to happen to poor and working people, of ANY color, in a LONG F'ING TIME!!!
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 07:08 PM
Response to Original message
16. There is a big difference between the African American support of Obama and
West Virginia support for Clinton


quote
There is another way to consider the issue of race, too. African-Americans overwhelmingly support Obama. Perhaps they believe that a candidate who is closer to them ethnically will also understand their needs and wants and will help them more as president
unquote

African Americans support Obama for a variety of reasons, and most started, like the rest of us, with a different candidate first. African Americans have supported candidates from other races.

The most telling criticism of West Virginians in DU have been from native West Virginians who have written in a very compelling way about the singular insulation of West Virginians. It's not that West Virginians don't support Obama that is the concern, it is that they are perceived as not being likely to ever support any African American. The converse is of course not true of African Americans.

West Virginia is not just one of the poorest and most uneducated states it is also the second oldest state. Given that Florida is the oldest in large part due to an in migration of retirees, West Virginia is the oldest because of the constant out migration of its youth and the inability of the state to attract any new business.

This is in part due to the intolerance to new ideas, in part to the very conservative religious interpretations that are found there. Does anybody argue that West Virginia is the state most likely to be last in approving gay marriage?


All of this is not to look down at West Virginia nor to Clinton's win there tomorrow.

It is simply a sad fact. It also shows what happens when intolerance grows to a point that it becomes the dominant pathos of the body politic. The society grows older and older and poorer.

West Virginia isn't against Obama because he is African American but because he is young and vibrant, inquisitive and outgoing, new and not afraid - all of the things that West Virginia is not.



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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Bicoastal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. WHAT ON GOD'S EARTH DOES OJ FUCKING SIMPSON HAVE TO DO WITH BARACK OBAMA?!
You fucking make me sick.
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chascarrillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. In case you haven't noticed...
... he's black.

Disgusting, I know.
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Bicoastal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. I mean, is it just me? Does comparing the travails of a black candidate to the exploits...
...of a notorious black celebrity/murderer make any sense? ANY goddamn sense? If you haven't noticed, running for office has no relation to convincing a jury to let you off the hook for double-homicide.

The connection? Black skin.

What if I compared Robert Blake to Hillary Clinton, would that be any less of a racially-charged non sequitor?
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Eric Condon Donating Member (761 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #21
44. While I don't wish to even dignify your disgusting race-baiting with a response, it should be noted
that O.J. didn't "get off on 2 murders." He was acquitted because there wasn't enough evidence to convince the jury beyond a reasonable doubt that he was guilty. The burden of proof lies with the prosecution in this country, as so many so often forget, and O.J. was and is innocent so long as he wasn't proven guilty. It's not like he received a presidential pardon.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 03:38 AM
Response to Reply #16
48. BS detected. JFK was an old fart? He won the nomination by appealing the WV tolerance,
http://www.gwu.edu/~erpapers/mep/displaydoc.cfm?docid=erps-wvp60

By early spring, the issue of Kennedy's religion had entered the electoral discussion, splitting the Wisconsin vote along religious lines and resulting in a steady erosion of support in West Virginia. Four weeks before West Virginia primary day, the tide had turned against JFK and he found himself trailing Humphrey by 20 points. When the campaign asked the county chairs why the voters had switched allegiance, they replied, "No one know you were a Catholic" when the poll was taken. Kennedy responded by moving his key campaign aides to West Virginia, calling on close friends to volunteer their time, and training county campaign chairs in 39 of the state's 59 counties to staff phone banks, host receptions, and go door to door to distribute literature. He changed his schedule to campaign throughout the state and brought Franklin D. Roosevelt, Jr. there to endorse his candidacy. On April 25th he decided to attack the anti-Catholic bias head-on, telling audiences across the state, "I refuse to believe that I was denied the right to be President the day that I was baptized." Finally, on May 8th, two days before the election, in a broadcast paid for by the campaign, FDR, Jr. asked JFK how his Catholicism would effect his presidency. Kennedy replied that taking the oath of office required swearing on the Bible that the president would defend separation of church and state and that any candidate that violated this oath not only violated the Constitution but "sinned against God."

In framing the issue as one of tolerance versus intolerance, Kennedy appealed to West Virginia's long-held revulsion for prejudice; placed Humphrey, who had championed tolerance his entire career, on the defensive; and attacked him with a vengeance. Humphrey, who was short on funds, could not match the well-financed Kennedy operation. Kennedy defeated his rival soundly, winning 60.8 percent of the vote. That evening, Humphrey announced that he was no longer a candidate for the presidency. Kennedy knew the nomination was his if he could hold his delegates together once they reached the convention.


KO had a long speech about how his favorite high school teacher taught him all about White's The Making of the President. So, how come KO was not on the air attacking this notion that the vote in West Virginia is somehow an all KKK vote? As I said above, the people of WV broke from Virginia and joined the Union voluntarily and ended slavery on their own.

Mountain people in the south are not the same as lowlanders. They are fearful of strangers--esp. government types. But if you are honest with them, they will be honest with you. They value fairness. They value personal liberty. This is a characteristic of mountain indigenous peoples world wide--the Kurds in the Middle East, the natives of Tibet, the people of Scotland who still want freedom from England--that often puts them at odds with dominant lowland cultures. More than likely these characteristics are selected for---who would want to live in a habitat that favors sparse populations except for highly independent people who are most comfortable living in isolation?---and it also calls for people who are highly adaptive and resourceful since mountain geography and ecology tends to change rapidly with elevation, requiring one to be able to learn and adapt to a wide variety of environments and make use of every available resource.


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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 04:41 AM
Response to Reply #48
56. The myth of WV racial tolerance
from the state constituion wikipedia

West Virginia

* "White and colored persons shall not be taught in the same school."

This point-blank requirement for segregated schools was proclaimed in West Virginia's State Constitution as Article XII Section 8. In a remarkable show of the persistence of segregationist attitudes extending to the highest levels of state government, numerous attempts to remove this article from the constitution were defeated in the state legislature until it was finally repealed on Nov 8, 1994.


http://books.google.com/books?id=wyVw5ikab3oC&pg=PA156&lpg=PA156&dq=history+of+racial+intolerance+in+WV&source=web&ots=zx8tC9aJV_&sig=TbQWH5WRWV9cffxn8LBTyiTrNrw&hl=en
KKK ..."and racial intolerance among the native whites of West Virginia constituted a serious menace to the United Mine Workers"
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #56
96. De facto segregation has always been as much a problem in the North--and still is.
Edited on Tue May-13-08 12:26 PM by McCamy Taylor
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mlassite/endofsouth.html

In Lassiter's lecture, "De Facto / De Jure Segregation: The Strange Career of a National Myth," he talked about the nature of segregation in the North and West in post-1945 America. Lassiter sought to show how segregation in the South --- enshrined as it was in the law --- and segregation in the North and West were simply different brands of the same evil. The "North" (which has come to mean anyplace outside the South) didn't adopt legal segregation, but neighborhoods and homes were nonetheless often as segregated as those in the South. Some excerpts:



Racial discrimination in the Jim Crow South represented segregation in law --- de jure. Racial discrimination in residential and education patterns in the North and West reflected segregation in fact, but not enforced by law --- de facto. . . .



Very few Americans today know that two months before Martin Luther King Jr. delivered his famous "I Have a Dream" speech at the 1963 March on Washington, he tested an early version of the speech in downtown Detroit. . . . "We must come to see" "that de facto segregation in the North is no less injurious than actual segregation in the South. . . ."



The New York Times ran an expose in 1956 and it summarized the consensus that racism was a psychological problem located within the white liberal conscience --- following Gunnar Myrdal's indictment --- not a structural product of public policies. The Times said, "Many Negroes and some whites feel that resistance to real integration in private housing in the North is as stubbornly rooted as the resistance to integrated schooling in the South. The final solution to the problem of segregation in the North lies in the hearts and minds of people."



The courts in the early 1960s began to draw a clear constitutional distinction between illegal de jure segregation that resulted from deliberate state action and permissible de facto segregation that encompassed anything and everything else. The NAACP forced this issue with an orchestrated campaign against public school segregation in dozens of Northern and Western communities, part of what the organization called an "all-out attack against Jim Crow schools, Northern style."


I live in Texas, and I remember about twenty years ago they cleaned up a bunch of antiquated laws from the frontiers days that had not been enforced since the frontier days. Anyone who looked at the legal code would have said "Why the hell is it against the law for a man in Texas to carry a pair of pliers in his back pocket?" Well, that was so that he wouldn't cut through barbed wire and rustle some cattle. No one ever got around to unwriting the law even after it stopped being used, because people forget to unwrite laws. Until someone notices that they are an embarrassment and goes after a bunch of them.

A state law about segregation would not have been enforced because it was unConstitutional so people probably forgot about it. Nice try, though. If you want I can find studies about schools in Northern cities where the minorities kids are mostly in one set of schools and the rich/white kids attend another set because they live in different areas and school districts and the schools make no effort to integrate the schools even though in a city it would be easy to assign kids to different schools. I was bussed in Austin, Texas in the 1970s. I loved my integrated school. It was much more politically and culturally tolerant and diverse than the all-white suburban school I had attended before. It prepared kids for the real world.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #96
104. It is not however a sign of racial tolerance as you argue
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iamahaingttta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
22. You have a lot of information handy.
It's too bad you don't seem to know how to use it. You often seem to come to faulty conclusions based on scattered evidence.

When I got to the part about the Mine Wars of West Virginia, my eyes started glazing over. Then I started thinking to myself "why is she so fixated on race?"

That's really all I got out of the OP.


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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
25. Thank you.
Being poor and living in impoverished areas with few opportunities makes it very difficult for some of us to get out of these dreadful areas of the country. It doesn't make us all racist. It just makes us feel unwelcomed in the party right now. It's good to see some Democrats remember what the party once stood for and stand for it in the face of those who have forgotten.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 07:29 PM
Response to Original message
26. I think the question really is why these states continue to vote Republican
Edited on Mon May-12-08 07:31 PM by depakid
Hillary vs. Obama is hardly the defining issue, all things considered.

Having grown up in a southern family and spent 6 summers on a farm near Shepardstown, WVA ...and having read Joe Bageant's (somewhat depressing- though accurate takes) I'm still at a loss.

It's almost as if many people in the region suffer from a sort of learned helplessness, whereby they continually enable and support their abusers.

Evangelical religion may be part of it- militarism may be part of it- macho mentalities and "rugged individualism" play a part too, as do race issues.

Even so, considering the economic conditions and lack of education and opportunities, one has find that the attraction to Republicans whose policies are demonstrably destructive offer little in the way of hope for a better life for their kids- much less themselves -is profoundly dysfunctional.

Hard to fathom why people don't get it. They'll march right into deadly coal mining operations, cursing those who'd hold the corporations accountable for safety violations and for the destruction of the land they love so much.

It's a very sad deal, and one which I don't see getting any better.
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democracy1st Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 05:04 AM
Response to Reply #26
61. to them liberal/progressive has been demonized beyond recognition
with all the info available how can a elected democratic politician and its citizens still call Obama a Muslim
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appal_jack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 08:21 PM
Response to Original message
29. k&r
I think that McCamy Taylor has raised some important issues about how the wealthy/corporate media has dismissed, insulted, and marginalized Appalachia as a whole, and particularly the poor of coal country.

I am an unabashed Obama supporter, yet I still can acknowledge that his campaign could have done better in speaking to West Virginians.

The rich history of the UMWA and other progressive/labor efforts in coal country needs to be told and even celebrated: tragedies, warts, and all.

I hope that as president, Obama can make inroads toward communicating with, and addressing the needs of the WV constituency.

-app
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MasonJar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
30. Does the fact that Obama showed up in WVa. today and in Ky tonight in any
Edited on Mon May-12-08 08:42 PM by MasonJar
way negate the theme of this essay, which if one is astute enough to read between the lines, clearly designates those who denigrate and stereotype the people of another state as ignorant as the "unschooled ones"? I have to agree. There are lovely people in Kentucky, I know because I live here and I know them. Many of us are actually highly educated also. Kentucky is also the thoroughbred horse kingdom of the world as 90% of all thoroughbreds are born in the state. Kentucky is an incredibly diverse and immensely beautiful state. On my way to visit my two daughters at Princeton University (my KY. husband's alma mater too) or my son at American University in D.C., I always chose to drive through wild and woolly West Virginia. It is a place of incredible beauty and filled with friendly people. For those who have not been there or here I highly encourage a pleasure trip through the lovely scenic vistas of WVa and Ky. I myself have been to many states and have found value in all of them. I have also been to Europe many times. I, therefore, feel adequate to judge the two. I live in Kentucky and I admire West Virginia and I know what I am talking about!!!!!!!!! There are lovely, well educated people in both, who might just prefer Hillary Clinton to Barak Obama. I personally do (although I will certainly support and work for him if he wins.) I think it is time for a woman president and Hillary is the right choice. That is my reason. Bill and Hill have been very good to the Democratic Party in Kentucky and heaven knows we needed their help badly. I like them very much.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. If Obama is making last minute stops in WV, this is a very good thing.
It does not matter what the vote is. It shows that he is not turning his face away from people mired in poverty. It shows that he cares even if he can not get a vote out of caring. / That sends an important message. One that his supporters at DU should pay close attention to.

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democracy1st Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 05:05 AM
Response to Reply #34
62. Do you think Republicans care about the poor ?
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 08:36 PM
Response to Original message
31. Comparing Hillary to Mother Jones is laughable.
Mother Jones was a revolutionary. Not some half-assed politician playing to the prejudices of the ignorant.

She was a union organizer, an agitator, and an Anarchist who sought to improve the lives of the poor, all the poor, through revolution, not empty pie-in-the-sky promises built on the "triangulation" of pandering to the right and clinging to the status quo as Hillary does.

She didn't praise the mine-workers for the ignorance and embrace their prejudices. She fought against ignorance and prejudice and was sent to jail for her efforts.














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DWilliamsamh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
32. Considering where he is in the polls in WV...
Is it any wonder he is not campaigning there? Also considering the fact that he already has the Democratic nomination wrapped up he really doesn't need to campaign in hostile territory... but one things for sure, considering his life long record as an advocate for the poor, regardless of the fact hat he knows WV won't be voting for him tomorrow, he WILL be doing every thing he can (along with the increased Dem majority in both Houses) to set the balance more to the people and less to the big companies that are killing them. Yes I am sure he will do what he can to help WV regardless of their vote tomorrow.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. Read "St. Francis" by Leonardo Boff. If we do not embrace the poor, nothing will ever change.
When DU treats anyone who shows the symptoms of poverty----self hatred, self defeating behavior, hatred of others, apathy, despair---as if that person is not trying, DU fails to understand that poverty is a disease just like depression or diabetes or any other illness. Just like war is a disease.

So many people on this message board try so hard to be "progressive" or liberal, but I think that some of you are very young or have lived sheltered lives and have never known any people who have truly suffered---suffered from debilitating disease or abject poverty or severe mental illness or catastrophe that has cost one a family or from incarceration from a crime that one did not do. I am not speaking to everyone, so please no "I know what it is like to suffer..." I just have a sense that there are more people posting here than I would meet in a county hospital emergency room that have had it pretty good up until now. I know that the guys and gals who pontificate on TV news shows have no idea what it is like to suffer. That did not use to be the case. Walter Cronkite, people like that--they used to report on real life human tragedy like the Great Depression. Katrina was a real eye opener for some of them. It was an education. War reporting allows others to experience real world problems. But we are breeding a class of reporters like our class of politicians that do nothing in the real world.
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DWilliamsamh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #35
77. WTF are you talking about?
There is nothing in my post that dismisses the suffering of the poor. Nothing whatsoever. You might want to try responding to what I actually saud instead of what you heard.

I specifically said that despite the fact that he will not be getting their votes in the primary tomorrow (well today now), I am sure that when elected President, Barack Obama will work with the Dem majorities in both houses to tilt the balance toward the poor folks in WV and elsewhere. I am sure of that because of Obama's life long record of working for the poor, instead of sitting on corporate boards and partnerships in huge law firms that advocate for those companies and their union busting ways.

My point was that there is no political reason for Senator Obama to spend more time in WV campaigning than he already has. There is also no correlation between campaign stops and actual concern or advocacy for the issues that will help the people of that community.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #77
106. Both posts show a lack of understanding of community level organization of social programs.
That is why I suggested reading the book by Boff. Liberation theologists are excellent at describing how to motivate poor and oppressed people. Or, you can read text books on how public health projects are organized for needy communities. Those which are developed at a national level and tossed down to communities do not work.

You wrote: "he WILL be doing every thing he can (along with the increased Dem majority in both Houses) to set the balance more to the people"

This is the wrong approach. It is the wasted effort approach. The effective approach is to listen to the community. Get them talking about their hopes, fears, needs, dreams. Help them to access their strengths, their weaknesses, their needs. Help them to mobilize their resources. Bring in outside money if necessary. Rely as much as possible on the community for leadership as possible.

The important point is the community feel that the endeavor started from within. If they think that the new program came from outside, that they do now own it, they will not work hard for it and it will fail.

By failing to talk to the people of West Virginia, Obama is dooming them to failure in whatever he may try to do for them ---because the oppressed need solidarity more than anything else. Then they can rise above their oppression (with some material aid).

Have you studied poverty in all of its health and psychological effects?
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DWilliamsamh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #106
110. Now you are shifting the discussion...
Edited on Tue May-13-08 01:26 PM by DWilliamsamh
You started of very clearly implying that Barack Obama and/or his supporters do not CARE about poor people or the problems of one of the poorest states in the union. This was/is a transparent echoing of the "Barack Obama (and those who support him) is an elitist who thinks they is better than the common man." Only you took it another step and implied that he also doesn't care about the problems of the poor.

Based on his record and his life that is obviously not true. When I call your attention to that, you try and shift the conversation to what is the most effective way of solving local (state level) problems. Well if that is the discussion you want to have, I guess you concede that Senator Obama does care about, and has a history of trying to solve, the problems of the poorest citizens of this country.

So which is it? Do you think he is unconcerned about poverty and helping workers fight the corporations that are killing them (demonstrably false based on his actual life and times), or are you just a "states rights" advocate, who thinks the Federal Government can't do anything useful (I draw your attention to Medicare/Medicaid and Social Security)? Sounding awfully right wing there.

Also there have been several posts that have pointed out that you are peddling the demonstrably false assertion that Senator Obama has "ignored WV" and "refused to campaign there." Yet you do not address those facts either. Be careful you are starting to adopt typical right wing tactics when discussing politics: Make a false claim, then: A) Change the subject when called on the falsehood or B) ignore any facts that are inconvenient to your original charge.
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NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
33. It's completely disgusting how the Obamites show a complete lack of respect for WV.
And they call themselves progressives. :puke: :puke: :puke:
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Liberal Veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. You can blame the media for some of that.
That whole "I heard he was Muslim and his wife's an atheist" stuff along with the whole Appalachia thing goes a long way toward shaping people's opinions.

In some respects it's no worse than the whole "San Francisco latte-sipping elitist" image.
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democracy1st Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 05:09 AM
Response to Reply #33
64. trust me we're a hell of a lot more progressive than you guys are
How many progressives would play divide and conquer with race,How many progressives would team up with rightwingers that want to destroy liberal policies ?
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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 09:56 PM
Response to Original message
37. K&R
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
38. Oh please. You aren't really comparing Hillary to Mother Jones?!?!?!
:rofl:

Dee Loo Shun Ull

:rofl:
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ElkHunter Donating Member (300 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
39. Many progressives today don't seem to understand...
Edited on Mon May-12-08 10:36 PM by ElkHunter
...what an earlier generation of socialists and liberals like Martin Luther King Jr certainly did, which is that the people described in the first post should be our natural constituancy. If the left doesn't speak to the needs of the poor and the working class, then in my opinion it isn't worth a damn. And that is exactly why we need a strong labor movement.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. Thank you!
:applause:
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democracy1st Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 05:11 AM
Response to Reply #41
65. thats exactly what Liberalism is respecting and speaking up for the poor
since when did you decide the Clinton's have did everything possible for the poor?
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 06:33 AM
Response to Reply #39
69. I understand that. So does Obama.
Obama has always championed the poor. The man was a community organizer in Chicago.

It was the DLC(the wing of the party that has pushed harder than anyone else for HRC to stay in the race when it is clear she can't win and can only do harm)that dissed the poor. She can't accept support from that wing of the party and be this year's RFK(despite the bizarre confusion some of Bobby's kids have about that).
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susanwy Donating Member (461 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 11:38 PM
Response to Original message
42. The treads today about WV aren't very "progressive".
Its funny that I don't hear Obama's supporters or the MSM implying that Latino's are racist or ignorant because they support Hillary in large numbers. Is that because both the Obama campaign and the MSM are more worried about pissing off Latino voters than they are the "white working class". Tell me, what is the fastest growing demographic in the country? You guessed it, Latino. The fact that there are real racial tensions between the African American community and the Latino community is not being discussed.

My point to this thread is that it seems it is much easier to just imply that the "white working class" is not voting for Obama because he is black. The democrats haven't carried that demographic in the last two elections, so the strategy is so what, piss them off, we don't need them. But, think back, if Gore had won West Virginia or Tennessee, Florida wouldn't have mattered. So, this group gets the triple whammy this election cycle of the implication that they are racist, ignorant and unable to process the information to make an informed voting choice and the feeling that the democrats don't really want their votes anyway because they have the AA and youth vote.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #42
45. You missed Nevada. And in California it was the racist Asians. See my journals,
Edited on Tue May-13-08 12:38 AM by McCamy Taylor
I think the people who were posting that splitter stuff figured out it was tacky and stopped. Divide and conquer is the RNC's number one tool for keeping the oppressed classes oppressed and they do it along ethnic lines in the US.
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democracy1st Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 05:13 AM
Response to Reply #42
66. Hillary implied that Latinos were not going to support Obama because of race
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #66
97. Link please. I need documentation on this one or I will have to call it a lie.
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democracy1st Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #97
119. call it a lie if you want to it was in the last video from the USA today article
I'm not giving you a link to anything you look it up
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democracy1st Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #97
121. lie you're the one full of bs,lie they been playing the video for a week
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satireV Donating Member (497 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #42
113. I would guess the fastest growing groups in the US would
be the poor and very wealthy.....

But then I don't look at people and see a skin color.

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susanwy Donating Member (461 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #113
130. absolutely true!
If you want to be completely simplistic in your analysis of election returns. Maybe the MSM should just fire all those demographers, because who really cares about trends across ethnic lines. Marketers don't, campaign managers don't, charity organizations don't, to name a few. We live in a perfect world where no one looks at anything having to do with skin color, for any reason and if you do, well then you might just be racist. :sarcasm:

Get a grip!
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smalll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-12-08 11:51 PM
Response to Original message
43. K and R.
:applause:
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donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 02:03 AM
Response to Original message
46. Did you purposefully lie about Barack refusing to visit WV?
If so, why?
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 03:16 AM
Response to Reply #46
47. This article said he was going to stay away until today (when he visited some veterans)
http://www.blog.newsweek.com/blogs/stumper/archive/2008/05/09/wva.aspx



The visit to WV which KO highlighted tonight was to a veterans affair complete with flag pin.

If you know of a campaign visit that Obama paid to a coal mine or a poverty stricken community this week in which he delivered a speech about chronic, generational poverty in Appalachia be sure to share it with us. This is the time when America would have been most receptive to such a message, and when he could have done a great deal of good for the people of the eastern mountain communities by helping to open the eyes of their more fortunate Democratic brothers and sisters in urban areas across the country to their plight.

Speeches given by the Clintons tend not be covered by the press nowadays except in order to be criticized or torn apart so it is difficult for them to draw attention to anything, but the press generally admires anything that Obama has to say.
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democracy1st Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 05:15 AM
Response to Reply #47
67. Ok I have no problem with what you're doing you're taking up for your people(read)
Now if he's so bad have them all vote for McCain like they plan on doing
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #67
98. Obama is fine. DU is not fine when it trashes poor folks. See the JFK link above
In 1960, JFK won the hearts and minds of WV (which was weirded out by the thought of a Catholic nominee) by campaigning in the state. He won the people over. Obama could have done the same thing. Mountain folks are friendly. It would have cemented his victory. Why didn't he at least try? Obama is way too cautious.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 06:36 AM
Response to Reply #47
71. Since HRC has proven over and over again that she doesn't give a damn about the poor or the workers
Edited on Tue May-13-08 06:37 AM by Ken Burch
(she proved that by not publicly opposing Bill on NAFTA and by never doing anytning to fight against the racist classist "welfare reform" bill), your continuing support of her is puzzling. You can't sit on the WalMart board and be Bobby Kennedy.

And she also proved she didn't care about the workers of West Virginia when she voted to send their kids off to die in Iraq in what she always knew was an unwinnable war.

Please stop misdirecting your anger. Obama doesn't deserve your hatred and HRC doesn't deserve your support. She's never been on the side of the people.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #71
99. People should read "Hard Times" The WPA was better loved than the "Dole".
No one liked getting a government relief check during the Depression. They wanted to go to work. When FDR created the federal jobs-works programs it was a tremendous relief to people who had been riding the rails for years desperate for any kind of meaningful work.

So I am sort of bewildered by people who act like welfare is the dream of Americans---what they aspire to. No one wants to live on welfare. People want someone to offer support and encouragement as they improve their health and education and find meaningful work.

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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #99
105. Of course welfare isn't the ultimate answer. The answer is jobs.
But the "welfare reform" bill was never about jobs or about changing the lives of the poor in any positive manner. That bill was about nothing but punishing the poor for accepting assistance, even though those that backed the bill knew those who were on welfare had no alternative. The bill didn't create jobs programs, it didn't launch public works schemes to give people jobs. It forced poor women off of AFDC(which many of them were on because that was the only way to get health insurance for their kids)and into McJobs or no jobs at all. Once you're in a McJob, your hope is gone. You live and die on the fry machine with no hope of escape.

The bill offered no real support or encouragement to the poor, only sanctimonious lectures on "personal morality", as if everyone who was out of work was only unemployed because they were a scumbag.

If Clinton had fought for a new WPA, it would be different. He could have taken the lead on this issue and pushed for a federal jobs bill before he cost us control of Congress with his conservatism in 1994. Clinton didn't even try to be proactive on this. He just caved. And he failed the most important test of a Democrat: he did NOT defend the powerless.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #47
75. Your OP is a lie and you know it. You've ignored all the facts presented to you, including
Edited on Tue May-13-08 07:39 AM by ProSense
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #75
103. These are the March 20 stop already referenced. One time then he gave up.
Where are the visits between March 20 and yesterday (which I am guessing he made out of a sense of shame since the mainstream media was starting to wonder why he was snubbing the second poorest state in the land). West Virginia is right next to Pennsylvania. It would have been easy to stop off there for a few visits.

And what is up with that speech on energy that did not even talk about coal at all? In the middle of West Virginia? Note that audience was finally about to applaud when he moved to the subject of alternatives to oil. They thought he was going to bring up clean coal. But then he started talking about other stuff. Coal country knows that Obama is the "nukes are green" candidate. According to yesterday's FW paper, 8 new nukes are planned for Texas alone next year. That is going to seriously hurt West Virginia. No wonder the people there are scared of Obama. He needed to talk about their economy and his plans for diversifying that state's economy. He needed to address their chronic poverty. Where were the speeched about that?
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #47
85. yeah, BHO went panderng to the vets Monday in WV-- A few token visits.
Edited on Tue May-13-08 10:34 AM by rodeodance
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Bake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #85
93. And acc. to the media, he was wearing a flag lapel pin!
I'm sure his supporters are aghast ...

Wait, is that a flip-flop or not?

Bake
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satireV Donating Member (497 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #93
114. No candidate can win a GE without moving the the center
Obama has been moving to the left to try and win the nomination. At this time Obama considers himself the Dem nominee. thus he is beginning to realize he needs to move toward the center to win over moderates and indies.

thus the lapel pin and pander to the Vets org.

However, Obama isn't a very good history student. other Dem nominees tried the same thing but were unsuccessful in moving to the center and lost in the GE. mcGovern and Mondale come to mind.
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susankh4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 03:49 AM
Response to Original message
49. I don't always agree with you, McCamy.... but this time I do!
Edited on Tue May-13-08 03:59 AM by susankh4
What a fabulous analysis of the primary race in West Virginia!

I would also add, at the risk of sounding like I am stereotyping, that lesser educated (ie. working class) folk tend to be more impressed with "action" than with "words."

When I taught nursing school I noticed this quite profoundly. The nurses from working class and rural familes were always asking "how does this apply in *real life.*"

Yesterday... someone on D.U. was railing about "How could anyone who supported Clinton jump to McCain rather than Obama? Clinton's and Obama's policies are almost identical... so the only reason is racism!!"

No... not really. The reason is that Mr. McCain has a history of action. They can see a record. And though they may not like everything in that record.... at least they can get a sense of how he makes his decisions. Far more important (to some) than what he writes in his policies. Or even what he says to get elected.

I really hope the Ted Kennedys of the Dem party don't fuck this up by alienating these New Deal Dems in the mountains. I really do. But, I am losing faith..... as I read what the folks here at D.U. think of mountain folk.
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democracy1st Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 05:18 AM
Response to Reply #49
68. You have really got to be a republican to say that crap
with the supreme court on the line,failing economy,ruthless war over lies etc
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 06:39 AM
Response to Reply #49
73. Good post
and the cautionary comment about alienating New Deal Dems should be heeded by Obama supporters.
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susankh4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #73
80. Tha sad thing is... they just don't get it.
I mean, look at the other response here. Calling me a republican... because I want Dems to look at what they are doing to themselves.

Out and about in this forum... the Obama people are now even threatening us with hangers, and illegal abortions... if everyone does not vote for Mr. Obama.

Do they really think these threats will work? In places like West Virginia??? For Pete's sake... don't they know there are Dems who vote our way solely for economic reasons? And they don't always even agree with our party's pro-choice stance?
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democracy1st Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #80
122. I get it alright,Republicans have stole two elections and you all ready to let them off the hook for
BS reasons,no you don't get it

here's what you said

"No... not really. The reason is that Mr. McCain has a history of action. They can see a record. And though they may not like everything in that record.... at least they can get a sense of how he makes his decisions. Far more important (to some) than what he writes in his policies. Or even what he says to get elected."

thats not a reason to vote for the GOP
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susankh4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #122
123. It is the reason why some, not all, Hillary supporters will break for McCain in the fall.
Unless we try to understand them and keep the big tent open.

Get a life, hon. Not everyone thinks like you (or I) do.

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democracy1st Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #123
128. who said we did not want them,so you get a life
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kirby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #49
127. "how does this apply in *real life.*"???
You are correct in a way. West Virginians are drawn to Clinton because she pandered with the gas tax holiday. That applies in 'real life' by helping the poor folks continue to fill up their pickups.
However, how does that 'what have you donefor me lately?' explain why they voted for Bush in 2000 and 2004 despite being registered as Democrats nearly 2:1 in WV?

I have yet to see race brought up as a motivator for this new found respect for Clinton.
I know many people in WV including relatives and they would rather die than have a n****r in the White House. Yet every single so-called news report I have seen about WV ignores
the race factor and talks about how Hillary's message speaks to the working class. I think the media has their head in the sand on some of the underlying factors.

More than most states, WV is a victim of both Globalization and bad energy policies, yet look who they vote for.
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Freedom Train Donating Member (479 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 03:53 AM
Response to Original message
50. I'm not ashamed of West Virginia or West Virginians
I'm ashamed of elitist Obama supporters, their despicable ways, and the sad fact that Americans can hold views like theirs. Here's a message to you: You are scum. Period. You're not fit to shine the shoes of one single West Virginian. Now sit back and watch my WV friends decisively renounce you and your Flawless Leader.

Good OP.
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mcollier Donating Member (887 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #50
78. How Fitting your choice of words...
Obama was campaigning in West Virginia yesterday, so update your origional post with the facts. Who has made the op'er the authority on the condition of the hearts and minds of the people of WV?

The Freedom Train has derailed at the GOP HQ...
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symbolman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 04:05 AM
Response to Original message
51. More overly and overtly Erudite Flame Bait..
all you do is post cut and paste tweaked conjecture based on one rabid statement in an attempt to stir the smelly shit up from the bottom of the pot here..

Grow a soul.

Flame Bait, doesn't have to have a word count.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 04:16 AM
Response to Reply #51
54. The OP is NOT the flame bait-but posts like yours.
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symbolman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 05:02 AM
Response to Reply #54
60. You need to
get a life..

Nothing but Pee Wee Herman responses, constant driveby posts like yours prove nothing but that you like to waste both your time, and DU bandwidth..

I fear for what's going to happen to you when the Reality of Clinton's loss sets in, you seem to live for nothing else but unfounded accusations..

"I know you are, but what am I?" is the basis of every post by you.. Same for the OP, but they decide to bore the pants off people first as they do nothing but breed contempt..

Its OVER for Clinton, Over. But some of you are near to appearing certifiable..
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #60
79. oh stop with the LECTURE!!
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symbolman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #79
81. Awww..
Did I make a brain cell pop in there?

No time to READ, you've got to Answer ALL these Bad people's posts that remotely bash the Pantsuited CacklePander :)

Busy as a little beaver, eh?

STOP the Driveby ATTACKS then...
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satireV Donating Member (497 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #54
115. I heard you were on lots of ignore lists
I have been trying and tring to get on as many as possible, but when I tell them to put me on them they whine like little O=babies and say I am not the boss of them! ;)

I really really want to be on more ignore lists than you!

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Bake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #51
94. It's a bit more than one rabid statement, symbolman
And I think you know it. I've seen a lot of dismissal of KY/WV voters as racist, "heart of racist country," "dumb hillbillies," etc.

As a former long-time Kentuckian, I tend to notice things like that.

Bake
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 04:15 AM
Response to Original message
53. You are flat wrong about Obama "refusing" to visit WV and you know it
That means you are being deliberately misleading. Your eagle eye seems to have found every negative comment about WV posted on DU and yet you managed to miss the threads about Obama campaigning in WV? NOT believable. And this taints your post. This is the third or forth melodramatic screed you've written about how nasty Obama supporters are about WV. Your selective outrage is obvious and not a credit to you.
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DinahMoeHum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #53
116. Agreed. See Post #112
Having 12 (TWELVE) campaign offices in such a small state is not exactly writing the state off and conceding to the other side.

:kick:
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #53
117. One visit March 20, then nothing until yesterday. Offices are not visits.
He blew off the state. He could have done what JFK did. He could have courted the voters in West Virginia and won them over. Instead, he stayed away, so that he could say "So what if I lost. I didn't really campaign here."
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RTBerry Donating Member (108 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 05:06 AM
Response to Original message
63. k&r
n/t
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suzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 07:06 AM
Response to Original message
74. Twice now,
this person has used the status of West Virginia seceding from Virginia in the Civil War as if that had any relevance to current politics. But, just one historical note that bothered me. Some of my ancestors settled in West Virginia in the early 1700s. Until the post-Civil War period, most of the descendants of the original Swiss Germans still lived in West Virginia. They were small farmers, and I doubt that any were slaveholders.

And all but 2 of the extended family fought for the Confederacy in the Civil War--we're talking 240 members of the family to 2 (it's an unusual name that's easy to trace).

My point is not that West Virginians are racist or not-racist--just that spouting off stuff about the Civil War is not necessarily relevant to anything.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 07:42 AM
Response to Original message
76. Obviously, more than 25 people don't care that the last paragraph of this OP is a fabrication
An intentional one:

In that case, by refusing to visit West Virgina, Obama did the wrong thing. A Liberation Theologist would have counseled him that the poor want to be given hope more than anything else. Poor people live with mind numbing soul wracking despair. Had he ignored the polls as Rev. Jesse Jackson did in 1988 and come to the state and said "It doesn't matter if you vote for me. I still want to be your president." Had be given a blockbuster speech on national TV highlighting Appalachian poverty, it would have unified the country.

Why didn't he?


Why is that?

Obama Campaigning in West Virginia

Another Presidential Hopeful Makes The Mountain State A Top Priority

Video: Barack Obama in Beckley, WV





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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #76
120. You keep posting the same March 20 visit. He came once. Then gave up.
Edited on Tue May-13-08 02:32 PM by McCamy Taylor
I am still trying to figure out why he stopped trying to reach out to West Virginia voters. The people in that crowd wanted to be given hope. They wanted to hear good news. Why didn't he bring them something that they could believe in the way that he has brought it to Democrats in the rest of the country? One speech on conditions in that state would have cost him nothing.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #120
136. How does that change that your OP ends with an intentional lie? n/t
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 09:14 AM
Response to Original message
82. “The rest of the country will have to show poor backward WV the way.”
I'm glad I missed that post. What a shameful thing to think.
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Texas Hill Country Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
89. once again, brilliant post.
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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
90. Which is why Obama has been the frontrunner on DU
Too many elitists on DU who think that they are superior to most others who can make decisions for the rest of the Democrats. This is why we lost with Dukakis, Gore and Kerry. Smart, intellectual individuals who just could not connect with regular folks.

And this is why Bill Clinton who, without his scholastic achievement would have been viewed here as "white trash" has been so successful. Because he did connect. And this is why the party establishment resents him so much. Because he, not Ted K. did get to the White House.

And this is why Bill Clinton is now being hated on DU, and, of course, being dismissed by the Obamas.

You may not like his campaigning this year, but you cannot take away his achievement as being the first Democratic President to be re-elected since FDR, his Supreme Court appointees, without them, any talk about taking back the Supreme Court would be nothing more that wishful thinking.

And how many Obama supporters on occasions pay a visit to the Poverty forum on DU?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
91. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #91
111. We can always rely on your to provide the daily bigoted post against Southerners
Do you do anything else on DU?
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
92. what a bitter, lengthy screed, that can be refuted by saying
that he's not wasting his campaign resouces in a state he's garaunteed to lose... what's the big deal?
:shrug:
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Bake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #92
95. There's nothing bitter about it.
Dems need to figure out how to reach constituencies that at one time were faithfully Democratic, but with whom the party lost its connection in years past, and that is what I take from the extremely well-written and thoughful OP. But it's so much easier to just dismiss them as ignorant racists, isn't it.

Bake

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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #92
118. DinahMoeHum says he has 12 campaign offices in the state. Newsweek says he runs ads there.
The only thing he is afraid to do is to go back there after his March 20 visit until yesterday on election eve when he went there to highlight veterans issues .

Why did not he use the campaign to focus on poverty? Do the people of West Virginia not need hope, too? They should have been the most receptive in the US to his message.
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susankh4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #92
124. The big deal is this:
West Virginians are not a waste.

And we all know he has money to burn... if he cares about them and their problems.

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BryMan Donating Member (76 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
125. Shocking I tell ya.
As much as I've seen my home state Alabama shat upon on DU by ppl virtually from every corner of the US I find it to be whining for anyone to just now take up for any other state.

But I know this election season so this is a ripe apple to pick and fling at the other side.

Now that's the truth of this situation, so I take this all with a HUGE grain of salt until I see ppl stop taking shots at my home state, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
126. Watch this video of JFK winning WV after the Catholic issue is brought up.
http://www.quotesandpoem.com/videos/show-videos/people/john-f-kennedy/jfk-1960-west-virginia-primary

This is how Democrats win. They do not shun states which they think that they can not win. They praise Democratic voters for their tolerance and promise that they are the candidate for all the people. Note that the Democratic voters of West Virginia, who had been frightened of a Catholic president responded to JFK's praise of their tolerance by voting for him .

This is what Obama should have been doing. He had even less reason to be afraid that mega rich-Catholic JFK with his weird Boston accent. Obama looks much more union/working man friendly and no one worries that he answers to the Pope. All he had to do was come in and get to know people.

In the link Prosense keeps citing above Obama in Beckley talked about gas prices. Here is what JFK said in Beckley.

http://www.jfklibrary.org/Historical+Resources/Archives/Reference+Desk/Speeches/JFK/JFK+Pre-Pres/1960/002PREPRES12SPEECHES_60APR11.htm



Twenty-seven years ago today, the 73rd Congress was meeting - the famous Congress of the "FIRST HUNDRED DAYS" - the FIRST hundred days with Franklin Roosevelt at the helm.

That Congress, under FDR's leadership, accomplished more in 100 days than has been accomplished in 8 full years under the Eisenhower-Nixon administration.

Franklin Roosevelt gave the American people a New Deal - social security, unemployment compensation, REA, minimum wages, protection to unions and farmers and child labor and all the rest.

And now it is time for another "New Deal" - a New Deal for West Virginia.

This Administration in Washington is talking about prosperity - but they haven't been to West Virginia. They are talking about Americans living better than ever before - but they haven't been to West Virginia. They are talking about employment reaching record levels - but they haven't been to West Virginia.

This state has been forgotten in the White House. Republican prosperity has passed it by. Republican give-aways have gone somewhere else. And that is why I say it is time for a “New Deal” for West Virginia.

Why should there be hungry people in this state while $9 billion worth of surplus food is rotting in warehouses? Why should West Virginians who want to work be out of work - why should great mines and mills lie idle - why should vast resources stay in the ground untapped - at a time when this nation needs all of its powers and energies to match the growing menace of the Soviet Union?

Why should one state of the nation suffer while another prospers? Why should thousands of young people be required to leave a state with such great natural beauty and potential wealth?

This is one nation, under God. Depression in one area hurts all areas. Depression in one industry hurts all industries. And that is why West Virginia's problems are not local but national - that is why the next president must come forth with a New Deal for West Virginia.

I am asking for you help in seeking the Presidency. And I am pledging to you - on the basis of my record of 14 years in Congress, helping the distressed areas of Massachusetts and the Nation - on the basis of my deep convictions, after touring this state, its plants and its mines - I am pledging to you a New Deal for West Virginia.

- a fair share of defense contracts, which ought to go more to areas of unemployment

- Federal loans to build new plants for new industries

- Higher and longer unemployment insurance, to tide a man over until he can find work

- Federal grants to rebuild decaying towns, giving them roads and water and more facilities needed to attract new industry

- a fair share of Federal highway funds for states like West Virginia

- Federal programs to help build new schools and retrain workers for new jobs

- a better distribution of surplus foods to hungry people

- a better break for the elderly, the disabled and sick

- better minimum standards of both pay and safety for those who work in our mills and mines

These are some of the features of what must be included in a "New Deal" for West Virginia. Any nation that can afford to rebuild the economies of Western Europe and Japan can afford to help its own people.

When Winston Churchill called at the start of World War II for our arms and destroyers, he pleaded: "Give us the tools - and we will finish the job." The people of West Virginia do not want the Federal government to do everything for them. They do not want charity and handouts. They are saying instead, with one voice, "Give us the tools - and we will finish the job."

I promise you that voice will be heard.



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ekwhite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
129. There are many reasons for not campaigning in West Virginia
Besides your explanation "because the blue collar white citizens of that state have one of the lowest education and income levels in the country. " That is your opinion, not fact.

There are many other likely explanations: 1 - looking at the poll numbers, and the number of votes coming out of West Virginia, he decided his time was better spent elsewhere; 2 - campaigning in West Virginia helps the news media to focus on Clinton vs. Obama instead of McCain vs. Obama; 3 - the campaign is focusing on a big win in Oregon and gathering superdelegates for the convention; 4 - he already has the votes to win the nomination without West Virginia.

I find it hilarious that you give him 'counsel from a liberation theologist' after all the time you spent attacking Rev. Jeremiah Wright, who IS a liberation theologist. I honestly don't understand why he owes it to West Virginia to campaign there.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #129
133. I have NEVER attacked Rev. Wright. I have supported him 100%. Obama rejected his words.
Edited on Tue May-13-08 04:42 PM by McCamy Taylor
I have always stood up for the reverend and his speeches--even the ones containing language like "God damn America" which is just the type of hyperbole that ministers sometimes use to create emotion within their congregation in order to move them through the stages of grief. It is like therapy on a mass scale. The net result of "God damn America" is to teach us that a truly loving God does not damn anything because then he would have to damn everything, even us for our hatred. He may point a finger at oppression, but in the end he unites.

Do a search of my posts and you will see that one of my beefs with Obama is that he did not remain consistent in his support of Rev. Wright's powerful ministry. He had an opportunity to help America understand liberation theology and he blew it.
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
131. Yawn.
Is it over yet?
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
132. k and r
Excellent work. Thank you.
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cascadiance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 04:40 PM
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134. Your omission of Oregon who ALSO is on the same day as Kentucky is telling...
All Obama needs to do is win a majority of votes (and he's polling now in double digits there), and it doesn't matter whether she gets ALL of the other delegates everywhere else. It would be mathematically impossible for her to win the pledged delegate count. Go to the Slate delegate calculator and see. Move all of the remaining states to the 100% for Clinton except Oregon. At 50/50 they're tied. Obama wins by ANY percentage and it is ALL OVER!
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #134
135. Since you brought up Oregon, that pure as the driven snow state tried to stay all white
by passing a law back in the mid 19th century that made it a crime for a Black person to enter to state of Oregon. The law was not repealed until the mid 1920s. Oregon was one of the centers of the KKK in the 1920s. Oregon has seen a rise in Klan, skinhead and Nazi activity in recent years.

Obama can win Oregon, despite the ample racism in the state, because there is a large urban population in the state, because there are a lot of people who do not live in poverty, there are a lot of people who have been blessed with educational opportunities who can afford to take a chance---they know that the state of Oregon with its diverse economy will do fine no matter who the president turns out to be.

People who are doing ok in this recession, the ones who do not really need hope, have no problem embracing Obama. People in need and who identify with his demographics---young, male or African-American---are readily persuaded by his message. However, I have not been impressed by his ability to cross demographic lines with his message of hope when he tries to court those in need. A truly inspirational candidate can make himself heard and believed if he is speaking to Democrats, because all Democrats share common beliefs in fairness, justice and tolerance. You just have to appeal to them.

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cascadiance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #135
137. You could probably find "black spots" in about every state of the union...

According to this author, we've even had slavery under the cover by companies like U.S. Steel in the South right up until World War II on a broader scale and have had elements of it in other places since then even where they could get away with it. It was largely due to WWII and the GI Bill and the advent of farm machinery that made it so many companies and big farms didn't have to rely on slave labor to produce their goods in the South.

http://www.slaverybyanothername.com/index.php?section=1

And if they're so racist, why is Obama getting a double digit lead in the polls in the state now? Huh? Your rationalizations don't make sense. There's a reason that Thom Hartmann moved there from Vermont. I think the demographics there are probably very similar, and Vermont produced Bernie Sanders, are only "socialist" senator.

A lot of people in Oregon are cool because they believe more in community and protecting the people around it. They are looking to institute their own "right of people to have health care" shortly in some referendums/legislation coming up.

Sorry, but I don't believe trying to maximize my money from lobbyists and rationalizing they are OK, and hanging out with Rupert Murdoch as a candidate that is "crossing demographic lines" any more than Barack is. Hillary doesn't like us "activist crowd" and she's said so in so many words. That's not reaching out to even her BASE, let alone to other demographics. And if another demographic is defined as "someone who hates", then I'm sorry that's a demographic I don't prioritize.
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happycozy Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
138. It really pisses me off when...
people use the example that black people overwhelmingly support Obama, so therefore they must be racist, too. Nooo...Black people have had nothing BUT white candidates to vote for since they had the right to vote. Blacks are finally given an opportunity for diversity, and they're voting for a brown person (people like to forget that Obama is half white).

When I hear a WV woman say she's not voting for Obama because he's a Muslim (see the link http://www.jackandjillpolitics.com/2008/05/abc-spreading-bad-info-on-obama-im.html), I and every race conscious person know that's code. What she's REALLY saying is: "I don't want to vote for him because he's black, but I'm on t.v., and I don't want to look racist." People like this woman are the reason outsiders are calling WV backwards. Not all WV people are backswards. But if a person votes against someone because of his race, and giving some voters the benefit of the doubt that they do believe it, because he's muslim, then that's backwards thinking. This is supposed to be a nation of tolerence, and I don't see tolerence in WV.
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