I admit it, I am warming up to Obama/Clinton

[wileedog]

I was fervently against it. I have said many, many times she is his kryptonite - his message of change, of hope, of re-aligning Washington politics all goes out the window when he puts her on the ticket. The Clintons are the ultimate insiders, the ultimate in triangulation and pander and sleight of hand policies that make you think you are getting a chicken in every pot all while the roosters are shipped to India.

I have said repeatedly that the Republican base is demoralized, ticked off, and in no mood after the disaster of Bush to put up a guy who they perceive as more liberal, more out of touch with their platform. A guy whose positions change depending who he is talking to, who regularly and really almost daily authors a bill with leading Democrats for Republican anti-crusades like amnesty, a guy nominated solely to go after the center, where obviously the base is not happy to go. The only thing that could get them hopping mad enough to go out and vote would be Hillary on the ticket. Why prop McCain up like that? Why give them the smelling salts?

All that said, I believe it was grantcart who first analyzed this election correctly in my mind. It is not about percentage of black voters or percentage of whites or Hispanics or hard working people or lazy people or eggheads or farmers or racists or people with guns who are bitter or bowlers or gays or gay bowlers or people with a strange mark on their left earlobe that is going to determine this election.

Its turnout.

Flat out turnout.

If significantly more Democrats come out to vote than Republicans, we will win. We could run a turnip against McCain if we get enough people pissed off enough at the current state of the country and enough people to understand the current policies which McCain is promising to continue to come out and vote against their madness.

Look at the Primary turnout. 35 MILLION voters in Dem primaries (with more to come). That's like a slow General Election. The GOP are looking at that number and pissing their pants. And not to rub salt in the wound but it doesn't even include Florida or Michigan.

And its just the start. There are an ungodly amount of unregistered voters out there who are unhappy, but just not motivated to do something.

And consider this. While we Obama folks are starting to cautiously celebrate our victory, Hlllary supporters are right. She won a huge margin of the countries' Democrats, almost half. I'm not saying there is any such thing as the popular vote, I'm saying a hell of a lot of people in this country voted for her. More than any runner up in a long time.

While I am sure the majority of those Hillary voters will turn to Obama, we can actually lock them up by putting her on the ticket. We can turn that support from "Oh alright, I'll vote for the little peckerhead" to real, true galvanized support. To help with the ground game and money and talking to their undecided friends and all of the little things that make the difference between 'vote for' and 'fuckin-a support!'

Look, I readily acknowledge she has burned a ton of bridges here. I wasn't happy with her conduct myself. But what was her fatal flaw this campaign? Her issues, ideas, knowledge and political clout? Or running perhaps the dumbest campaign in modern history? Thanks Mark Penn!

So what if we combine the Clinton brand name with the Obama Machine? What if provide an insanely well oiled engine with Hillary's brand name, obvious grasp and knowledge of policy and some genuinely good ideas for America? And we put a brilliant young, energetic orator as the front man? And we let Hillary do what she has done best this campaign, and play the traditional VP attack dog role? I almost feel sorry for McCain if she starts to lay into him.

No, she doesn't bring a state. Yes, she is antithetical to Obama's message. Yes, she has huge negatives. Yes, she has royally ticked some of us off with her antics.

But she brings a huge brand - millions and millions of voters on her last name alone. She will be the VP, so her insider message really wont mean much, Obama will be the front man. She adds depth to the ticket, and now an almost outlandishly fanatic toughness to it. Obama the Dreamer with Clinton the Enforcer? Yikes.

But most of all she brings votes. Granted, a lot of them Republican against us, but certainly more to us. If we get out the vote this year, we win. Period.

And the average never-before-voted American will recognize and perhaps act for a name like Clinton before they do for a Webb or a Sebelius who they won't know from Adam. And in the GE, where often voters are much less informed and more name-centric, her 15 million Primary votes could be 25 million.

She doesn't bring a state, she brings an army. (Albeit she also raises another one against us.)

I'm not saying I'm sold, but I'm thinking it is no longer something to just throw out with the the bathwater either. This is a different election this year, and while in a more traditional setting this combo makes no sense, when the focus is getting people out to vote, the brand name is a huge plus. Not to mention her policies, obliteration and gas tax pandering aside, are also pretty darn good.

This primary has captured the attention of the public in a way that Obama/Sebelius cannot. Why not go in with the full guns blazing, if turnout is the key?


OK, talk me out of it :)

[anonymous171]

1. I kind of like your idea. Just overpower the fuckers.

The imagery is just sooo satisfying.

[emilyg]

2. Ditto.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

108. Food Tasters For Obama

Food Tasters for Obama Prepare for Ultimate Sacrifice
by: wizinit
Fri May 09, 2008

Tuesday's primaries made Barack Obama the "presumptive nominee". Now there is increasing speculation that Hillary Clinton will be his running mate. But some pundits warn that Obama better watch his back should Hillary become his Vice President. Concern was heightened after Bill Clinton recently invited Barack Obama for tea with some of Vladimir Putin's "associates" at New York's famous Russian Tea Room.



The danger of having the Clintons, who know their way around the White House kitchen, too close for comfort has motivated some Obama supporters to launch a new group seeking to protect their candidate from any close encounters with a bad oyster. Die-hard Obama supporters now have the opportunity to serve and make the ultimate sacrifice by joining Food Tasters for Obama, which is awaiting approval from site administrators at MyBarackObama.com (they are apparently worried that the group will be cast by the media as some sort of weird suicide cult).

...more at the link

http://www.onemillionstrong.us/showDiary.do;jsessionid=48A670DBBB408530CAA5B881E3FB578F?diaryId=1145

[onehandle]

3. I won't talk you out of it.

But others will burn you to the ground for thinking.

[movonne]

4. Never, never, never... he is fighting to get old politics out..we don't

the dlc anywhere around our new president..she would be our there taking all the glory away...this is one of the crappiest ideas ever..

[wileedog]

5. But she will be the VP

She really won't have a lot of say in new or old politics.

[Andy823]

39. The repugs

Would use all of the crap she slung at Obama against them in the GE, it would be a disaster! We would lose independents and cross over republicans with her as VP. All of those republicans who can't stand McCain would come out to vote against any ticket with Hillary on it. The republican talking heads are all for it. I heard Tucker Carlson saying that Obama "had" to make her the VP, it was the only way he could win. Other republicans are also coming out saying what a "great" thing it would be. They want her one way or the other on the ticket because they know it's their only chance to help McCain.

Nope, Hillary as VP is not a good idea at all!

[wileedog]

43. I dont deny it but

For the average Joe, I don't see attacking the VP as all that relevant. So what? She's the VP?

Heck it might deflect fire off of him.

[4themind]

45. What about cheney...

not to sound snarky but in Bill's white house, he had a signed statement of responsibilities with gore, and I really do think that may push for the same thing with obama(I'm guessing health care part deux), in which case I hope he declines unless he wants parts of his agenda to possibly be altered in ways that may not have been desirable to people that help put him in office (and would need to get re-elected perhaps)

[enid602]

60. Hill

I've heard a few people here opine that Hill might turn out to be another Cheney. But Cheney couldn't exist without Bush, and I really can't see Obama (or the public) putting up with another Cheney.

Yes, she does represent the old; health care, child care, entitlements, etc. For her (and so many who support her), change means going back to the old relationship between Gov't and the citizenry, where the fovernment actively helps the least among us.

[wileedog]

74. But if Obama is the leader we think he is

None of this matters. She will only be the VP, she doesn't set policy.

And the Cheney comparisons are silly. Does anyone, even Hillary supporters, think Obama is Bush?

[enid602]

79. Cheney

That's my point. Obama is no Bush, and I think they'd both go into the relationship knowing who's the boss.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

107. Group pushing Clinton as VP choice tied to her campaign

Group pushing Clinton as VP choice tied to her campaign

By Margaret Talev | McClatchy Newspapers
Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2008 email | print tool nameclose
tool goes here
WASHINGTON — A group called VoteBoth has been leading the charge for Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama to team up on the Democratic ticket.

But the people behind it come from just one of those camps — Clinton's — and one of their goals may be keeping Clinton's White House prospects alive.

The group's founder, Adam Parkhomenko, until recently worked as an assistant to Patti Solis Doyle, who was Clinton's campaign manager until February. Parkhomenko in 2003 founded the Draft Hillary for President Committee.

VoteBoth's spokesman is Sam Arora. He's a law school student who in recent years worked for Clinton and for former Democratic National Committee chairman Terry McAuliffe, Clinton's presidential campaign chairman.

...more at the link
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/36639.html

[iconicgnom]

48. but President Bill Clinton will be her spouse

And in that position President Bill Clinton (as he is still addressed) will have a lot of clout. Once that is done, I mean, once Bill Clinton becomes the VP's spouse, imagine that there might be a sharp difference of positions. Perhaps regarding already existing, already ongoing deals and connections that Bill has with varous gov'ts and corporations, and which he will bring onto the scene as "baggage". For example, how could Obama/Clinton campaign against the McCain's lobbyist connectons with the Burmese dictatorship, given Clinton has been directly paid tor lobby for Columbia? I don't see how Bill could be controlled by Obama unless Bill wanted to be controlled - and I think the potential for disaster for the pairing of Obama/Clinton is 100%.

Please, don't sugarcoat it.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

106. its like pairing Tonya Harding with Nancy Kerrington

just a matter of time before something tragic occurs

[JTFrog]

115. As irrelevant as Cheney you say? No fucking thanks. n/t

[bigwillq]

6. But what if Obama does pick Clinton?

Would that change your feelings towards Obama?
:shrug:

I think there's some back stage deals going on...I really feel that Team Clinton is trying to persuade Obama to put her on the ticket. We will see what happens.

[wileedog]

20. Not really

What I like about Obama is not necessarily his change change change message, its his ability to see reality and react to it sensibly, not just go into the typical political reaction.

Anyone else who had to deal with Rev Wright when the story first broke would have immediately disowned him. Instead Obama turns the tables and gives a fantastic speech on race, and it works better than disownment ever could because it is not politics as usual. Its reality.

Maybe Hillary on the ticket is just sensible reality?

[WillyToad]

99. Old politics wont go away...

...until we have publicly funded elections, which Obama has never mentioned. Slogans are meaningless, look what happened with his unity slogan, Obama supporters have engaged in a nonstop smear-fest. No change or unity anywhere in sight in Obamaland.

[VotesForWomen]

118. no he's not, but i don't want hill as VP. at least when O loses the GE she'll still be viable in 20

2008.

[sellitman]

7. There would be turnout alright.

Just not the type you envision. The Fundies would come out of the woodwork in droves. Not my idea of a way to win an election.

Pass.

[GarbagemanLB]

8. I'd vote for it, but I do think it would be one of the weaker choices for a ticket.

I think a well-known Clinton supporter in the VP slot plus Hillary actively campaign for Obama would be a better alternative, as it would address the problem of many people not trusting/approving of Clinton.

[GetTheRightVote]

9. I simply want to win in Nov and with a united Dem party it will happen

but divided the party will have problems with it.

[Cha]

10. Too bad you're warming up to it because no way in hell

is that fucking liar getting on our Obama ticket.

[PBS Poll-435]

16. Hmmm....

I would prefer to win this time.

[VotesForWomen]

119. so you're OK with clinton supporters not voting for the dems in Nov? she's got nearly half the votes

and you don't even think she deserves to be on the ticket as VP? that's kind of a big fuck you to half the democratic voters, isn't it? so much for the hope and change. but that was just a lie to get suckers like you to vote for O anyways.

[Colobo]

11. Go Obama/Clinton!

[Cha]

26. No.

No.

[frickaline]

12. It actually does go with his message of unity nt

[dailykoff]

13. 61% of Democrats DON'T want her on the ticket

and that's according to road-to-911 bush fellators ABC. Ain't gonna happen.

[elocs]

29. Well, count me in that number because I say, "NO, NO, NO!" A thousand times NO! n/t

[dailykoff]

51. I'm with you and Michelle.

It would be suicidal.

[WillyToad]

100. And half the democratic party say they wont vote for Obama

because his supporters are so abusive...

[Lady-Damai]

14. It's not going to happen.

My biggest regret in life is voting for her for the senate. Shit, fuck me for being so silly to vote for her because of the Clinton name.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

15. Why would anyone try to talk you out of such a sweet thought.

:puke:

[DemGa]

17. One point

Clinton would help put Republicans more at ease - the opposite of what Team Obama has said.

Conservative minds hate and fear change - they know Hillary, and most would admit things were pretty good during Clinton's Presidency. As Republicans fear change, Hillary would serve as a stabilizing force.

Obama, though having virtually no substance or precedent for change, nevertheless has crafted that message and perception - he would be the true motivator for Republicans to vote against a Democrat. Hillary would perhaps reduce this effect.

[Pisces]

18. No, No , and No again

[John Q. Citizen]

19. 1. Clinton guarantees the right wing turns out.

2. Clinton suppresses turnout for independents who like change.

3. What data do you have that putting Clinton in the number two spot make her people comne out, where as putting someone else their means they don't turn out?

4. Putting Clinton on the ticket proves Obama was "just joking" about change and a new direction. It will suppress his turnout.

5. Obama has run a brilliant campaign. Hillary has run a poor campaign. Why drag down a brilliant campaign?

[ORDem]

30. 6. There's very little evidence that the VP pick affects the election much

7. She would not take well to the #2 spot after the election. She would always be a problem for Barack, second guessing him, and I don't see how she could not harbor a resentment that she should be Pres. not him.
8. With Hillary you get Bill. He's basically a loose cannon and will play bad cop to Hillary's good cop. Just creates a major distraction to Barack's administration.
9. ?

[wileedog]

38. There's has never been a VP like Clinton who just got 15 Million primary votes

Not sure the comparison to past VPs is relevant.

[John Q. Citizen]

127. There has never been an operation chaos before, either.

[TheDonkey]

F*** No!

I understand she is popular. I agree with that. But only among democrats and she will not help him win the GE, just become a distraction. So NO Hillary.

[babylonsister]

21. Nope. Out with the old and the decrepit tentacles, in with the new. nt

[VotesForWomen]

120. another naive fool who thinks Obama's 'different.' well, we all live and learn. nt

[Clear Blue Sky]

22. I'm not....nt

[AtomicKitten]

23. No thanks.

:hi:

[Bensthename]

24. DU wouldn't like it. But the numbers of voters for both combined would be unbeatable..

They both have massive voters, and different voters - not alot of overlapping demographics.
This would be good for a unity tkt..

Pure math putting them together would guarantee a win.

Obama/dems could gamble with another VP choice or guarantee a win with a unity ticket.
Now flame on why Hillary shouldn't be on the ticket..

[enid602]

50. donations

Chosing Hillary as VP might also have a positive impact on donations to DU.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

62. Can somebody please get this information to Obama IMMEDIATELY?

:*

[AllentownJake]

25. Bad Idea

All the negatives he has with this Rev Wright thing compounded with all the negatives Hillary has.

There is something to be said about picking someone who isn't as well known. Of course they all have to be vetted very hard. However why pick a VP that already has 1200 pages of oppo research ready to go.

[wileedog]

28. Which is countered by 35 MIllion people coming out for these 2 in a PRIMARY

I readily admit there are negatives. BUt really, if the main focus of the campaign is to bring in a mass amount of new voters, which seems to be Obama's MO, then what does a more 'traditional' VP choice like Webb bring you?

Potentially new voters have no idea who he is. Ditto the other 12 names being bandied about.

[ORDem]

36. Absolutely no evidence that turnout would be that high on the Dem side in the GE

But, surely, it would be high on the Gooper side with a Clinton on the ticket.

[wileedog]

75. No evidence?

CLinton is losing with almost 16 million votes.

Kerry WON with 10 million.

No evidence of higher turnout?

[AllentownJake]

37. I don't think they can work together

I just don't think it will work and making her VP isn't going to appease her hardcore supporters which is really the people we have to convinve anyway.

I also don't want to bring in her failure of capaign people. They don't get it and they will constantly be causing trouble.

[wileedog]

54. OK that is an ABSOLUTE condition - NO MARK PENN, TERRY MCAULLIFE, etc

Thats is not negotiable. Bill and HIllary go to and say where and what Obama's folks tell them to.

Sorry, that's a precondition

[AllentownJake]

56. That will last a week

and we all know that.

Than every decision they disagreed with would be leaked to the media.

[wileedog]

59. I'm not worried about the subordinates.

If Obama is fit to lead the country he can keep CLinton's tools in line. Don't think they are an issue, especially after they are all fired.

I'm just worried about Bill.

[AllentownJake]

61. Bill would be the one

leaking to the media and Monday morning quarterbacking every decision.

If there was a bad news day he might decide to "help" and we've all seen what happens when he goes out to help a candidate on his own.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

109. Clinton on the ticket will drive GOP turnout and hurt the down ticket

only Clinton supporters like this idea.

A last grasp on power to retain control.

28 years is too much Bush Clinton.

[bigbrother05]

27. Mrs. BB05 and I were discussing this earlier

With all the work and pain it took to get to this point, with the nomination within his grasp, why would Obama (or anyone) want to risk letting McCain sneak away with it just because of personal pique? Just the sheer numbers to be gained by adding HRC to the ticket would nearly guarantee victory in the GE and cap a historic victory. The Obamas are nothing if not smart. To be so close, what's wrong with starting the healing of America by first reaching across the party? A truly united Dem Party, with all constituents on board, might finally send the NeoCon roaches scurrying back into the shadows where they belong.

Were Obama to make a sincere offer and Clinton turn it down, surely even her most ardent supporters would get behind the eventual ticket.

[wileedog]

32. THat's the thing though, its not about just keeping CLinton supporters

Its registering 10 million new Democrats, which Obama is clearly setting out to do. It is his MO going back to Chicago.

Who serves him better in that capacity than a brand name like Clinton?

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

110. burn the village down to "save" it?

Why vote for Obama if you don't believe in real change?

If you want 30 more years of the same thing, by all means let
Clinton drag the ticket down.

The only reason she has gotten this far is because of her name.

[mystieus]

31. Where Bill Clinton going to be in all this? terrible idea.. Doesn't fit Obama's agenda

[wileedog]

34. Canada I was hoping, to be honest

:)

[TexasObserver]

33. Never

[frogcycle]

35. congratulations

in politics, pragmatism trumps ideology every time.

[4themind]

40. Very good arguments,

but I think an important thing to consider is not simply how many supporters she has vis-a-vis the popular vote (although that is important) but where these tallies were generated. She got a lot of them out of CA, New York, and Ohio, even Vis a Vis McCain, the only one of those three that I'm more than moderately concerned about is Ohio, I actually think that Strickland could be a guy that gets it for us. Pennsylvania is another consideration that I would have to concede. The turnout was very high this year, but part of that number may be from the relative length of this year's primary combined with total population growth(although the even in the earlier states the percentages were markedly high, I think it remains to be seen how it'll look in the G.E. (i.e. will the turnout in the G.E. be similar to past years, but its just that a larger percentage of that amount choose to vote during the primary as well, from having two exciting candidates, we'll see)

I guess the ultimate question is whether she'll bring in more democrats (that wouldn't come to obama otherwise) rather than dissuade independents(which McCain seems eager to pick up), or turn out more republicans (which McCain desperately needs). So while it does round up MANY voters, it may also strengthen two of McCain's biggest weaknesses. Given their very slight difference in policy issues, I really think the close numbers are really indicative of the strong Clinton Brand, which if not in the picture, I STILL think would trend to Obama in larger numbers when they the contrasts in policy vis-a-vis McCain are drawn. Obama had to work his way from HUGE poll deficits to the clintons, and I actually have some faith taht he can win over those that he hasn't yet, it's been a steady climb for him overall.
So we'll see what happens, I'll support him either way, though I hope Obama is given the respect from his party to make his decision, and I have trust in his judgment.

[wileedog]

47. Excellent points all around

I just think if recruiting is the name of the game, you go with your best name brand.

And of course it works both ways.

I'm not pushing it, I'm just saying I'm less inclined to toss it out the window outright.

[CakeGrrl]

89. Hasn't Obama blown the doors off of recuiting and GOTV numbers?

There has to be a reason Hillary's campaign is $20 million in debt. If she had Obama's donor base, she wouldn't be in that trouble.

I agree with the observation that a lot of the votes she's bringing in are already in Democratic strongholds. Obama has crossover appeal that can help put other states in play.

And would the "Barock HUSSIAN Obama" crowd vote the ticket with Obama at the top? Doubt it.

I'd be OK with her negotiating another prominent position in the admin, just not VP. That's way too much fodder for the GOP, and I really, really, REALLY don't feel like hearing about Colombia, Bill's speaking fees, the Presidential Library funding, Monica, Paula Jones, the "new" information about Travelgate or Troopergate or Whitewater or Juanita Broaddrick, blah blah blah blah...enough of that damned dirty laundry that will just be waved in front of us yet AGAIN.

[wileedog]

91. He has

Which is why I admit I wonder what they could do with Obama's organization and Clinton's brand.

I think it would be overpowering, albeit it brings the negatives as well.

The media would certainly play it as a Dream Team, and put McCain on a huge defensive, despite the Repub attacks.

[CakeGrrl]

93. The problem is that Hillary and Bill are tarnishing that "brand" the longer this goes on

After all she's done to undercut Obama's positives, I wouldn't see her as anything but a base opportunist waiting in the wings. And I'm sure I'm not alone.

[wileedog]

94. She can turn that around tomorrow with a big endorsement

Again, the vast majority of the electorate doesn't pay as much attention as we do.

And the people that are pissed of with her like us are not going to actually *switch* our votes if she is put on the ticket.

I'm struggling to find a demographic that would have voted for Obama but Hillary would stop them. And she would particularly help with his worst demographic, the over 65 crowd.

Personal distaste aside, there is a lot of practicality here.

[Tatiana]

41. If there was some guarantee that we'd keep everyone in the two camps

I'd be all for it. As a poster indicated above, I'd love to just "overpower the fuckers!"

And there is no better attack dog on the planet than Hillary. NONE. She can lose the husband, though.

My fear is that there is a strong and vocal contingent of Obama supporters that will not forgive and forget "as far as I know" and "hard-working white voters" and "he can't win." It is very personal; I think some take Hillary's kitchen sink strategy more personally than Obama himself does.

Then there is the issue of the debt. We'd have to help retire it. That is a HUGH fucking sum to retire. I believe it is greater than $20 million. That's money that could have been spent on the general election and not on a failed primary effort. Again, Obama supporters would find this a bitter pill to swallow.

Added to that remains Bubba. He has been the worst thing about the Clinton campaign and I think many people are just waiting for the time when he will fade into obscurity and we won't have to see or hear from him again. Hillary... in a way you can respect her determination, her strength, her fierceness. Bill Clinton (and I still can't believe I am saying this) brings absolutely NOTHING to this team or ticket.

I'm not even getting into the fact that Hillary would find it very hard to take a subservient vice-presidential role. It would not be about her agenda, but Obama's. It would not be her policies the Democrats would be pushing, it would be Obama's. The Clintons would no longer be the party leaders, it would be the Obamas at the helm. Could they handle that? Really?

Will Hillary sign a loyalty oath? Can we trust her to keep it?

And even if she apologized for all the shit that she's done, would she bring along the majority of her supporters... some of whom have indicated they will not vote for a black man? Can she deliver?

My gut says no. But my head wonders whether we could really unleash a Democratic tidal wave and make it rain on Republican hopes for a third Bush term.

[Cha]

46. hilary is one of the fuckers. Obama can

do this with his campaign and his ideas. I would not want him to even consider the mole, hilary, and I know he's too savvy and has worked too hard to sabotage his campaign in this ridiculous way.

[wileedog]

53. Hey, I respect that. I was with you for a while

Just asking everyone to look at the practical points. I think there is at least some merit, but that's my own newly formed opinion

[Cha]

69. hilary has spent the last year tearing down

Obama to build herself up and has been
rendered a tragic national joke.
Obama knows this and will not choose her.

"Why Hillary’s Lies are Important"

- March 24, 2008, 9:53PM
Hillary Clinton has been caught in a series of lies and misrepresentations during the primary campaign. To some of her supporters, these lies may seem trivial and insignificant and even politics-as-usual. However, please consider the serious impact of these lies by placing them in the context of the past seven years of the Bush Administration and the legacy of expanded executive power that he leaves behind. In particular, consider the dangerous message that the Clinton campaign sends by employing similar tactics to achieve her political goals.

1. The Florida and Michigan Primaries / The Delegate Count
Hillary agreed to honor the DNC’s decision to strip Florida and Michigan of its delegates after their primaries were moved up into January in express violation of the DNC rules. She did not change her position on the validity of these primaries until she found herself unexpectedly behind in the delegate count and desperately needed to claim the delegates that she had won in these unsanctioned contests. As her chances of winning the nomination became increasingly slim in recent weeks, we have been presented with threatening and desperate lines of reasoning for why these primary results should count as is. At the same time, Clinton and her surrogates continue to propose different metrics for determining who should win the nomination even though there is and has been a clearly defined process in place for several decades.

Please think about the implications of changing election rules after the fact. We have suffered through at least one stolen presidential election and the manipulation of untold numbers of Congressional and state elections through various vote tampering and voter intimidation schemes used by the Republicans and their allies. The American people (and especially Democratic voters) have lost faith in the integrity of the election process. The Clinton strategy to continually change the rules for determining the Democratic Party nominee sets a dangerous precedent that could lead to increasingly un-Democratic elections in the future if it is allowed to succeed. If anything, we need more transparency and methods of accountability in our elections in order to repair the damage done in recent years and to restore our confidence in the Government.

2. The Bosnia Fabrication / Exaggerated Experience Claims
Hillary fabricated a story about a dangerous, life-risking visit to Bosnia in order to gain stature as an experienced negotiator in international conflicts and war. While this type of embellishment can seem almost comical, it represents a willingness to distort reality in order to influence the public perception. This is the same type of distortion that the Bush administration used to justify the war in Iraq, although the magnitude of the lie is certainly on a different scale. The Bush administration falsified reports, cherry-picked intelligence, used unreliable sources, and employed fear-mongering tactics to convince the American public that our safety was at risk and as such, you were either with us or with the terrorists. The lies used by President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney are impeachable offenses and should be condemned by all Americans. Sadly, the Clinton campaign seems to have shown a shocking willingness to employ the same tactics to create a more favorable reality and to rely on divide-and-conquer rhetoric to weaken opposition. Her attempts to frighten the American people by conjuring up 3 AM phone calls are bad enough, but her vote of confidence in John McCain over Barack Obama should be seen as treason against the Democratic Party.

3. NAFTA
Hillary lied about her position on NAFTA and used her lies in a calculated way to influence the Ohio primary. Recently released White House documents confirm that Hillary had been an active proponent of NAFTA prior to its passage, and she has continued to support it publicly in her speeches and memoir. However, while campaigning in Ohio, she claimed to have been privately against NAFTA during the Clinton presidency and believes that it should be rewritten to protect American jobs and workers. This type of maneuvering is reminiscent of the behind-closed-doors policy-making that the Bush administration has used during the past seven years. Specifically, Bush and Cheney have made policy decisions without providing transparency to Congress or the public, and President Bush has repeatedly ignored the rule of law by issuing signing statements and disregarding the parts of the laws that he doesn’t agree with. If we cannot trust Hillary to be truthful about her positions on critical legislative issues now, how can we trust that she will be truthful as president?

These are just three examples that illustrate the concerns we should have with a candidate who demonstrates a sense of entitlement to the nomination and is willing to lie, misrepresent, threaten, and divide in order to obtain the nomination. President Bush and the neoconservative movement have greatly harmed this country by the creation of an imperial-like presidency. This election is not just about whether a Democrat or Republican wins but if the checks and balances are restored to the three branches of government. The framers of the Constitution were in such fear of an imperial president that mechanisms for impeachment are prominently and explicitly included in the Constitution. If Hillary Clinton is willing to use lies and deceit to win the Democratic nomination, what assurances do we have that she will not continue to use them once she is president?
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/03/why-h ...

<snip>

"Her response to being caught lying to a military audience, when she invented a story about being under sniper fire in Bosnia, was to say it wasn't surprising she got some things wrong, seeing how she spoke millions of words every day. What a magnificent idea, that if you say lots of words some of them are bound to be fantastic lies. So if you listen carefully to horse-racing commentators they say things like "And it's Teddy's Boy still leading three furlongs out as they come up to the fourth last fence with Nip and Tuck two lengths behind by the way I fought a tiger once, punched it clean out and they're all safely over."


<lots more>
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/opinion/article3 ...

"It's not that lying to pad the resume, avoid Indictment or to advance her political fortune is anything new for Hillary Clinton. She famously said she was named after Sir Edmund Hillary (debunked); she told New Yorkers she was a Yankee fan when she lived in Chicago (debunked); she told rural New Yorkers that she was a "duck hunter" (debunked); she claimed that her daughter Chelsea was jogging around the World Trade Center at the time of the 9/11 attack (debunked by Chelsea herself.) And, those subpoenaed Rose Law billing records just happened to show up one day on a hallway table in the most monitored home in America!"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[wileedog]

72. Yeah I get it. I laughed at those toons too

But politics make strange bedfellows.

Again, 10 million Dems voted for Kerry when he won the nomination in 2004.

Almost 16 million have voted for Hillary and she is losing.

What other VP brings that kind of juice?

[Cha]

77. You're not using logic..Obama won't do this

that's the bottom line. You can fantasize all you want but serious Obama supporters, who do want change, do not want that liar on our ticket. She would only bring it down..are you a secret hilary supporter?

I mistakenly thought you were serious..I stand corrected.

[wileedog]

80. Actually I am using logic

When the losing candidate gets that 150% of the votes of the previous winner, I find it hard to ignore.

Go back and read all of my posts, I have no love of HIllary. I actually hate the idea of the aftermath with Bill running around the White House questioning everything Obama does.

Hey, I'm just throwing it out for discussion, no need for labels. I'm perfectly fine if it doesn't happen.

But I think it is worth a deeper look given the numbers here.

[wileedog]

66. Couple of points

"My fear is that there is a strong and vocal contingent of Obama supporters that will not forgive and forget "as far as I know" and "hard-working white voters" and "he can't win." It is very personal; I think some take Hillary's kitchen sink strategy more personally than Obama himself does."

No question. I'm pissed at her myself, I thought the McCain endorsements were outrageous and actually are an argument against what I am saying here.

But those same Obama supporters, myself included, are not going to switch if she is put on the ticket. Maybe won't be happy about it, but the nature of compromise is no one is completely happy.

"Then there is the issue of the debt. We'd have to help retire it. That is a HUGH fucking sum to retire. I believe it is greater than $20 million. That's money that could have been spent on the general election and not on a failed primary effort. Again, Obama supporters would find this a bitter pill to swallow."

Money is the LEAST of the problems with this ticket.

"Added to that remains Bubba. He has been the worst thing about the Clinton campaign and I think many people are just waiting for the time when he will fade into obscurity and we won't have to see or hear from him again."
Yeah, that is an issue. I don;t really have an answer for that other than making sure the interns are all really good looking. And even then its trouble.

"I'm not even getting into the fact that Hillary would find it very hard to take a subservient vice-presidential role. It would not be about her agenda, but Obama's. It would not be her policies the Democrats would be pushing, it would be Obama's. The Clintons would no longer be the party leaders, it would be the Obamas at the helm. Could they handle that? Really?"

Yes and no. I think she will have far, far more influence into policy as VP to Barak, especially since many of their positions are so close anyway, than she will just returning to the Senate. She has stood in Bill's shadow for a long, long time, and although it will be far tougher with Obama I think she is practical enough to understand the situation. Again I think Bill thinking he will have some sort of influence will be far more of a problem.

"But my head wonders whether we could really unleash a Democratic tidal wave and make it rain on Republican hopes for a third Bush term."

That's all I'm doing, playing what if tonight. If we cut through the emotions, there is logic there IMO

[Tatiana]

102. That's part of the problem. I don't want her influence as VP.

If I did, I would have voted for her in the primary. I didn't. I prefer Obama's vision. Therefore, I don't want her having any influence as VP. I want her IMPLEMENTING Obama's vision.

Can she do that? Can her ego take a back seat?

I don't know.

[Beregond2]

42. Democratic turnout

is going to be overwhelming no matter what. We don't need Hillary to guarantee that.

[wileedog]

49. Guarantee it? No

BUt the media after this exhausting Primary will play it up completely as the "Dream Ticket"

It will have way more appeal than anyone else Obama picks - as well as a ton more negatives.

But with the GOP down and out, I'm inclined to step on their throat, not dance around with the usual VP suspects.

[graycem]

44. I can't..

I've been disappointed with some of the things said and done, but her half of the support IS there. We'd be fools to ignore it. The only thing I want is to win. Whatever that takes. I think we all want that more than anything based on principle alone. It's been done time and time again, so I don't think it's impossible. Obama's smart and I think he'll recognize the advantages/disadvantages and weigh them appropriately.

[ericgtr]

52. I am not against the idea but some of the things she's said will be used against them

she's said some damning things and I can see them replayed over and over in clips by the 527's. It's hard to tell though, either way I am too warming to the idea when two weeks ago I would have said no way. Maybe it's just a matter of time to heal some wounds.

[wileedog]

55. Yep, that's a big problem

No question.

Hey I never implied this was perfect :)

[anonymous171]

73. She would simply have to say that "after campaigning with Obma, it turns out she was wrong".

[paulk]

57. DU is out to lunch on this issue

(as usual)

it will be a unity ticket, one way or the other.

Bank on it.

[Strelnikov_]

58. Like a visit to the dentist

You may not like it, look forward to it, but it has to be done.

[Tribetime]

63. I go back and forth on this...I'm glad Barack's making the decission

[anonymous171]

64. The Obama/Clinton ticket (in music video form):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLQJLtG4bj0

[Upton]

65. I'd take it, I'm just worried about her high negatives

at this point I'm partial to Sebelius or maybe Strickland, but if we can win with Clinton as VP count me in.

[wileedog]

70. Me too

But she is a VP who just got 15 million primary votes.

By comparison, Kerry only got 10 Million in WINNING the vote in 2004.

[Erin Elizabeth]

67. ...

[dailykoff]

68. I don't think he'll pick a woman, even if McCain does.

For one thing, he's already got a wife. For another, Geraldine Ferraro was a disaster for Mondale and I don't think he needs to take that risk. If McCain picked a woman it would look like desperation and basically it would be. I don't think he will. Just my perception.

[anonymous171]

71. Well, grandpa is not Reagan. And Hillary is no Ferraro.

I'm not advocating for a unity ticket though.

[dailykoff]

76. Ferraro was a fresh face and very appealing.

I don't remember the husband stuff but that's par for the course. Hillary is a black hole of negativity and would add nothing but a pinch of satisfaction for a small group of supporters who are always going to resent Obama for stealing her thunder anyway. The whole idea strikes me as bizzare.

[wileedog]

78. Small group of supporters?

I;ve posted this several time in this thread, but I will repeat.

She has almost 16 Million voters this year.

Kerry WON in 2004 with 10 million.

THis is not some vocal internet group, she has a real base. More than any other VP candidate is going to bring her.

[dailykoff]

And the more she campaigns the more it shrinks.

Hillary as a name is appealing, but Hillary in the flesh is a train wreck. That's what happened in Iowa, remember? And all those other states she lost? What makes you think anything would change? :shrug:

[wileedog]

82. She'll be a VP though, that's the point

Seriously, other than a couple of debates and some random appearances, she is about the name.

And she will kill in the VP debates.

And she will be free to play attack dog, which obviously we know she is very good at.

The things I think make here a weak Presidential candidate actually play to her strengths as a VP candidate.

[dailykoff]

85. Personally, I think she's a lousy debater.

And she will never, ever be VP. You can take that to the bank.

[anonymous171]

81. Also, Hillary becoming VP would dismiss, in the eyes of the electorate, a lot of her criticisms

of Obama. She could just say, "Now that I've campaigned with him, I realized that I was severely mistaken in my analysis of his experience." or something like that.

[dailykoff]

83. No, it would just tranfer her negatives to the ticket.

Obama would become yet another Clinton flunkie to be tossed overboard at the first sign of trouble.

[wileedog]

84. Then he is not the leader we think he is

I'm not worried about that at all, honestly.

[dailykoff]

86. He's just starting out. She's old news.

He doesn't need the baggage, or the debt.

[WillyToad]

103. Obama supporters are nearing fanaticism in their hatred of Hillary

http://hnn.us/articles/47402.html">An Obama supporter speaks out against the hate

[4themind]

87. That's not going to expalin away the CIC-threshold comment

as to why he's suddenly crossed that in 5 months. It;ll be a problem for him anyway now, but even worse when the person's your VP, it's just going to be seen by some as a move for political expediency, that he were fighting against before but we'll see, obama has a way with words, that's for sure. He'll need to make sure that he she can come up with a logical explanation (that he thinks voters will believe) before he should even think of putting her on the ticket IMO.

[wileedog]

88. SHe's still getting away with the whole popular vote lunacy

This is child's play in comparison... :)

[4themind]

90. Hahah, true although..

I tended to think that the MSM was going along with it because they wanted to extend the race/promote ratings/help McCain but once it's over they'll just jump onto McCain's cajones, although I guess that would be a problem regardless.

[wileedog]

92. Nah, they will play this as the Dream Ticket after this exteneded Primary

I really think it will put McCain on the defensive with the media actually.

[oxbow]

95. MCCain will have the Bush effect, Barr and/or Paul all cutting into his margins....

as for Hillary, she and Bill would turn the OVP into something more Cheney-like and power-hungry than its traditional role has been. Offer her some other position, just not the VEEP, imo. Get Clark on as the VP nominee, he's a strong friend and supporter of HRC and could make it a unity ticket by proxy.

how's that? :)

[wileedog]

97. Clark is great, and I think he is a fine choice

But can he really generate the buzz of 16 million guaranteed voters, and the name recognition to help recruit 10 million more?

Keep in mind my strategy is not careful parsing of the perfect candidate, its raw blunt force of pushing out 60 million Democratic voters in November. Given the Primary numbers that is realistic. Its also a sure thing the Repubs will never ever get close to that, no matter how much vile swift-boating they do.

If we go traditional, then Clark is actually one of my first choices. But this total burnout strategy is intriguing to me.

[oxbow]

116. Don't get me wrong, I get shivers just thinking about an Obama/Clinton ticket...

the GE would def be a blowout in our favor, we are in agreement on that. I still don't see the Clintons being happy with just casting the tiebreaking vote in the Senate though. I am afraid that they would use the OVP as a launching pad for their own initiatives and power-moves, be they at odds with Obama's plans or not. This election cycle has shown me something important about the Clintons: that they have their own agenda which they will pursue whether or not if affects the party or anybody else negatively. They have too much personal ambition for the office in question, and would chafe under it rather than thrive.

[Lilith Velkor]

96. How is it that she's antithetical to his message when they are alike in policy?

She's just more willing to fight dirty. That's what you have to do to beat Republicans.

That and name recognition are why she has such good numbers.

[skipos]

104. The problem is, the Clintons fight dirty against democrats

in fact, they fight dirty against anyone who stands between them and what they want. I am tired of the Clintons and their "me 1st" politics, I don't want them getting the nomination and I don't want them as VP.

And 50% disapproval isn't "good numbers" imo.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

111. She would sabotage Obama at every step - just like now

she's got a poison cloud around her.

No way we would ever get healthcare with her on board sabotaging everything.

[grantcart]

98. well

1) You need to get more substantive sources lol

2) A thoughtful consideration without rancor is called for and that was the main purpose of my previous post whick I think was a success because it only had 4 or 5 fuck no's in it. It seems only fair if we are asking Clinton supporters to consider Obama that we should consider Clinton for Vice President.

3) I was surprised when I undertook to make the case from the Clinton side how persuasive the case was. And one of the reasons is that in spite of a terrible campaign she does in fact retain popularity in PA OH IN and FL, and maybe afew more. Anybody who can bring us those 4 states has to be considered. http://journals.democraticunderground.com/grantcart/79

4) I am still ambivalent about the vice president and basically will accept who ever they say- they have earned that trusthttp://journals.democraticunderground.com/grantcart/80.

5) Hillary keeps talking about this being a job interview - ok lets make it a job interview - lets see how fantastic a champion Hillary can be concerning Obama - put the ball in her court and see what she does with that. If she accepts him as the rightful nominee and champions him as the new leader of the party I would be entirely open to it - it has advantages and disadvantages lets see what she can do with it - thanks for the call out - nice to know it causes people to think about this stuff.

[Tatiana]

101. A few points

3) Obama can win Indiana and Pennsylvania without her. I don't think she delivers those states. Rendell's machine will deliver PA and most of those who voted for her in IN will come around and move to the Obama camp. Clinton carried the majority of the Democratic base, but Obama came so close with a huge chunk of Independents. They will vote for him (along with more than a few Repukes) in the general. Where I think Clinton delivers is in Ohio and Florida. Clinton brings in voters in that state who would otherwise vote for McCain. To win Ohio and Florida, putting Clinton on the ticket is worth some consideration. We can make up those EVs in other western plain states, but I'd rather deal with a wide open electoral path to victory than a more narrow one.

4) Obama supporters will vote for whoever is on the ticket, for the most part.

5) Who better to respond to the right-wing attacks against Obama than the one who first posited them? This would be her chance to prove her worth. Obama stays above the fray and her words would carry a lot more weight given that she was the one who attacked him with those charges first. If the one who first brought the charges says they are not true, then what do the Rethugs have left? I love what you said before: let's see Hillary start dispensing the Kool Aid.

[Beacool]

105. Personally, that's the ONLY way that I would consider voting for Obama.

But since his supporters don't think that they'll need Hillary nor her supporters to win........

:shrug:

[VotesForWomen]

121. that's about the size of it. nt

[grantcart]

123. the only way?

[Beacool]

126. Yep, I don't see myself voting for Obama under any other circumstance.

The only way I could see voting for him is if Hillary was on the ticket too.

[demwing]

112. Winning at the cost of success

You win the election - MAYBE, but you lose on the reasons why you wanted to run in the first place.

it's not turn out, its sellout.

I'll support Obama either way, but I'll never believe the Clinton is "needed."

[TeamsterDem]

113. My fear about that is this

I believe Clinton would give Obama only the absolute minimum level of support as VP - perhaps undermining him with "as far as I know" style comments - in an effort to undermine him surreptitiously so that she could run against him for the Democratic nod in 2012. Sounds wacky but then again she's currently pushing an insane strategy, so nothing is unimaginable in my mind.

Remember, she's absolutely convinced that she'd make a better president than he. There is nothing wrong with her feeling that way, but she's convinced to the point that she's doing literally anything it takes to beat him now. Why wouldn't she do the same in 2012? Especially if Republicans can only manage another candidate who, at best, enjoys tepid support from his base.

[dailykoff]

114. She's completely whacked.

He'd have to be equally psychotic to put her on his ticket, and he's not. There are a thousand better candidates. He could put Oprah on the ticket and he'd do better.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

117. Don't underestimate the insane bloc.

:*

[CakeGrrl]

124. That's my concern - I flat-out *do not trust her* after the campaign she's run

I keep hearing "Just when I was softening toward Clinton, she goes and does this" comments.

That's a sign of someone who can't be trusted to do the right thing.

Her campaign is STILL looking for dirt on Obama and hopeful that "anything can happen".

Her negatives and the campaign "oppo" research on her are not going to disappear.

Obama proves he can bring new voters (maybe to offset the ones who will take their Hillary ball and go home) while Clinton drowns in debt. Obama has kept his campaign out of the dirt and I'll never be comfortable with PigPen sitting on the ticket.

But if he makes that decision, he'd better have her sign a hell of a binding "VP pre-nup" before he takes her on.

And never mind the MSM touting the "dream ticket". Since when do Republican shills dispense advice that benefits the Democratic party?

[DFW]

122. You'd have to convince Hillary to do it, and I think she has bigger plans in mind

If she loses the nomination, my bet is that her Plan B is not to
become a second fiddle vice-president under Obama, but the most
powerful Senate majority Leader since LBJ, who, after all, was
dragged kicking and screaming from his majority leader post in
the Senate to be JFK's veep.

Senate majority leader under a hostile president is not much of
a position, but Senate majority leader under a president of your
own party is a very big deal, indeed, and is someone who wields
tremendous clout over the legislative agenda of the country.

I think Obama WILL offer her the post if he locks up the nomination,
but only because he almost needs to be seen doing it. I don't think
he would like her as VP, and since their stances on things are essentially
similar, he could accomplish a great deal with her as majority leader
in the Senate.

I think Obama's ideal VP choice would be Wes Clark. I like Sibelius, and
she can be a forceful speaker, but I think she's too local for a national
ticket. Clark is extremely bright, knowledgeable like an encyclopedia,
and has the military background that would keep the Republicans from
touting their ticket as the only one with "strong military" credentials.
Plus, Clark is known and respected around the world, with the possible
exception of the Serbs, who still hate us for stopping them in the Balkans.
Clark is also a Hillary supporter, so selecting him would be a gesture to
her campaign without actually having her as VP.

A powerful ally as Senate majority leader is much better for a president to have
than a "shoulda been me" VP.

[shaniqua6392]

125. This is what I have wanted all along.

He can not win this without putting her on the ticket. They each have approximately 16 million votes. The Democratic Party is split in half. The ONLY way we will win in November is to put them both out there on the same ticket. They are already talking about this a great deal in the media over the past week. I bet there are back door deals going on right now with the DNC to figure out how to do it. Anyone who really hates the idea on DU or elsewhere had better get over it. It may be the only way to win the GE. What is better? Obama/Clinton ticket or President McCain being sworn in with his hand on that bible in January. It is up to Democrats to prevent this from happening. Swallow your pride. Do it for the troops stuck in Iraq. If McCain gets in, they are stuck there for at least four more years. How many dead soldiers do we want because some people don't like Hillary Clinton? Grow up already is what I say to them.