Coal

[H2O Man]

"In May 2002 I flew over the hills of West Virginia, Kentucky, and Tennesse, and saw a sight that would sicken most Americans. The mining industry is dismantling the ancient mountains and pristine streams of Appalachia through a form of strip-mining known as mountaintop removal. Mining companies blow off hundreds of feet from the tops of mountains to reach the thin seams of coal beneath. Colossal machines dump the mountaintops into adjacent valleys, destroying forests and communities and burying free-flowing mountain streams in the process. I saw the historic landscapes that gave America some of its most potent cultural legends – the forests where Daniel Boone and Davy Crockett roamed, the hills that bred the soldiers who followed Andrew Jackson, the frontier hollows that cradled our democracy, the wilderness wellspring of our values, our virtues, our national character – all being leveled.

"According to the EPA, the waste from mountaintop removal has permanently interred 1,200 miles of Appalachian streams, polluted the region’s groundwater and rivers, and rendered 400,000 acres of some of the world’s most biologically rich temperate forests into flat, barren wastelands, ‘limited in topographic relief, devoid of flowing water’."
--Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.; Crimes Against Nature: How George W. Bush and His Corporate Pals Are Plundering the Country and Hijacking Our Democracy; 2004; pages 114-115.

Last night I watched the television premiere of "Burning the Future: Coal in America" on the Sundance Channel. It is a powerful documentary that tells about the conflict between the people of West Virginia and the coal industry. I strongly recommend that people take the time to watch it.

In his book "Crimes Against Nature," Robert Kennedy, Jr., addresses the topic in Chapter 7: King Coal. I strongly recommend that book, as well.

Last night, the media covered the democratic primary in West Virginia in what I thought were strangely limited terms. Although I favor Senator Barack Obama, I felt that Senator Hillary Clinton’s win was significant. It wasn’t important in the sense that she is any closer to winning the nomination for president. Rather, it was worthy of our attention, because the people of West Virginia are experiencing the problems that are defining our nation’s struggle: community values versus corporate profits; the environment being destroyed for the benefit of the Cheneyites; children’s health being compromised by wastes dumped into community water supplies.

I have yet to hear any of the people on the cable news attributing Senator Clinton’s support to her positions on the environment. And I haven’t heard them mention that Robert Kennedy, Jr., who is known to poor communities as the most honorable environmental advocate in the land, has endorsed Senator Clinton.

Instead, I hear things that seem geared to place the story about the struggle for democracy in the communities in West Virginia in the margins, where it will be ignored. More, there are news reports that I believe are aimed at creating larger divisions in the democratic party.

If we are going to achieve a true democratic victory in the fall of 2008, it must include the voice of the people in West Virginia being heard. I support Brack Obama, and am fully confident that he will be elected president this fall. Yet I have respect for the struggle for democracy in West Virginia, including for the people looking to Kennedy and Clinton for leadership.

I hope that others will consider these issues as we discuss what shape an Obama administration should take.

[myrna minx]

1. K&R.n/t

[rosesaylavee]

2. Right.

Most posters here that I have read - on both sides - have reduced the West Virginians to stereotypes. Not unusual to find that you don't however.

Excellent post.

[frickaline]

3. K&R (nt)

[theHandpuppet]

4. I have a few things for you to read...

Obama sucks up big money from "King Coal"
This is a subject near and dear to my heart. Just another example of how Obama is in the pocket of the fossil fuel industry and how blind his followers are of his REAL policies!! Why do they think Jay Rockefeller (WV) was so eager to go on the campaign trail with him?

http://www.billingsgazette.net/articles/2008/02/28/news... \t

(excerpt)
The coal industry has given a combined $38 million to federal candidates since stepping up their climate change campaign three years ago. More than 65 percent went to Republicans, according to an analysis of campaign data compiled by the Center for Responsive Politics.

But utility companies that burn coal are now putting almost half their money behind Democrats. Obama topped the list of all recipients this cycle with $248,000. Clinton was second with $200,000, and McCain was ninth with $93,000.

The Center for Responsive Politics' Massie Ritsch said the coal industry's historical "true color" is red, but with Democrats controlling Congress and making a strong run at the White House, "they're having to renew some friendships with Democrats..."

Then there's THIS:

http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/indus.asp?ind=E12...

From 1990 to 2008 the large majority of coal mining contributions went to the GOP. And yes, that includes the 8 years Bill Clinton was President. All of a sudden the coal industry is stuffing Obama's pockets with gold??

What does that tell you, folks? Jeezus H. Christ, when are his supporters going to wake the hell up?

More damning evidence of Obama's cozy relationship with King Coal

Please read the whole article for context as I can only provide a portion here.

http://www.dailyyonder.com/turning-coal-liquid-turns-pr...

...The most interesting relationship to surface in the CTL debate was an alliance between Sen. Barack Obama, the sleek Democratic candidate, and Jim Bunning the rough-talking ex-ballplayer and Kentucky Republican. Obama had been supportive of Illinois Basin coal in the past and Bunning asked if he would support his Coal to Liquid Fuel Promotion Act. Obama initially said yes. (Incidentally, in the first quarter of 2007, Obama received $154,000 in campaign contributions from the Chicago-based energy company Exelon, a possible beneficiary of CTL incentives.)

Sen. Obama from Illinois quickly learned that life was different as Democratic presidential candidate Obama. His sponsorship of Bunning’s CTL Energy Act garnered criticism from pro-environment groups. Obama began issuing clarifications and explanations, backing away from the Bunning proposal.

The Daily Yonder contacted the Obama campaign to clarify the Senator’s muddled early June “clarification" of his position. An Obama spokesperson emphasized that Obama supports coal-to-liquid if it will (1) help achieve energy independence and (2) fight climate change. However, the text of the 2007 Bunning-Obama act does not include carbon sequestration regulations.

MORE

Keep following the money train...
http://votegibbonsout.blogs.com/votegibbonsout/2008/01/...

A bit more from the WaPo article:

On Tuesday night, the issue came up during the debate among the three leading Democratic presidential candidates.

Former senator John Edwards said, "I believe we need a moratorium on the building of any more coal-fired power plants unless and until we have the ability to capture and sequester the carbon in the ground."

Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (N.Y.) said, "I have said we should not be siting any more coal-powered plants unless they can have the most modern, clean technology. And I want big demonstration projects to figure out how we would capture and sequester carbon."

Sen. Barack Obama (Ill.) did not commit himself on coal plants but said Americans had to make their buildings, lighting and appliances "more efficient."

<snipping>

Kennedy{, Jr.], for all of his best and brightest verve, like most Democrats, lost his street cred on issue when he endorsed Sen. Hillary Clinton, a candidate that America's Power showers praise on, since, as one of America's Power 's founders says, "Hillary recognizes that new power plants using coal can't be expected to put carbon capture and storage technologies on that don't yet exist."

A long-time supporter of southern Illinois's powerhouse coal industry, Senator Barack Obama's campaign website triumphantly declares: "Obama will significantly increase the resources devoted to the commercialization and deployment of low-carbon coal technologies."

And let's take another look at that vote in Wyoming, shall we?

Gee, do you think this could have anything to do with the vote in Wyoming, the nations' #1 coal producer, or Obama's love affair with Jay Rockefeller (WV)?

Coal industry steps up effort
By MATTHEW BROWN and MATT GOURAS
Associated Press writers

Thursday, February 28, 2008 2:06 AM MST

Facing a bruising fight over climate change, the coal industry is on the political offensive this election year to ensure that no matter who wins in November, so does coal.

Billions of dollars in corporate profits are at stake for the companies that mine, ship and burn the nation's most abundant domestic fuel.

Some powerful Washington voices, including Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid and House Oversight Committee Chairman Henry Waxman, have lined up against coal-fired power, which churns out 2 billion tons of greenhouse gases annually. Not shirking from a fight, coal's supporters are spending tens of millions of dollars to cement their support among members of Congress and the top presidential candidates.

The industry -- including companies that mine and ship coal in Wyoming, the nation's No. 1 coal producer -- is also appealing directly to the voters those politicians need....

<snipping>
...Sen. Barack Obama, for example, wants existing plants retrofitted with carbon-capture technology "as soon as it is commercially available." Meanwhile, Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, who acknowledges the intense economic pressures to use the fuel, supports projects that are at least partially cleaner than current technologies allow.

And therein lies the difference. Saying you'll support "clean coal" when the technology becomes "commercially available" puts no pressure on the industry to clean up its act and neatly sidesteps any timetables. Do Obama's supporters think that Robert Kennedy Jr. threw his support to Hillary on a whim? It's time they started facing the TRUTH about Mr. Obama!

And BTW, under current law Wyoming has no limits on state PAC contributions to candidates.

Coal really is King in Wyoming and they know a friend to coal (owners) when they see one.
http://www.ccsd.k12.wy.us/mines/PR/Pr.html
(excerpt)
Powder River Coal Company in Gillette, Wyoming, is the second largest coal producing company in the United States. Powder River Coal Company owns and operates four surface mines in the Powder River Basin of Wyoming. Together, the four mines control 2.5 billion tons of recoverable coal. The coal seams at the four mines range from 65 feet to over 100 feet thick.

These mines produce coal with high Btu's, low sulfur, and low ash, which means that much of the coal produced is compliant with the Clean Air Act. When coal is burned to produce electricity, the sulfur content combines with oxygen to make sulfur dioxide. The greater the sulfur content of the coal, the greater quantity of sulfur dioxide that is formed. When sulfur dioxide is emitted into the atmosphere, it can become part of the chemical cycle that produces acid rain. Because Powder River coal has such a low sulphur content, it is in demand for use by electric power companies all over the United States.

More coal is produced in the state of Wyoming than in any other state in the United States. According to the Gillette, Wyoming Convention and Visitor's Bureau, Wyoming's Powder River Basin produces one-fifth of all the coal produced in the United States annually. One of the reasons is because of the low sulfur content of the coal found in the Powder River Basin....

Also see:
http://dir.salon.com/story/opinion/feature/2004/04/01/m... /
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/coal/statepro/imagemap/wy....

And even more...

http://www.thedailypage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=38453...
Obama-Mining Lobbyist Ties Scrutinized
Wednesday November 14, 5:55 pm ET
By Kathleen Hennessey, Associated Press Writer
Obama's Ties to Mining Lobbyist, Opposition to Reform Bill Draws Scrutiny

LAS VEGAS (AP) -- Democrat Barack Obama opposes a bill that would change the nation's 135-year-old mining law -- the same stance as mining industry executives who employ a Nevada-based lobbyist advising the presidential candidate.

<snipping>

...The General Mining Law of 1872 allows the mining industry to pull gold, silver and other minerals from federal lands without paying royalties. The industry opposes changes to the law and several efforts to reform it have failed.

A House-passed bill would impose a royalty of 4 percent of gross revenue on existing hard-rock mining operations and 8 percent of gross revenue on new mining operations. The reform bill also would put new environmental controls on hard-rock mining, set up a cleanup fund for abandoned mines and permanently ban cheap sales of public lands for mining.

Obama said the legislation, favored by environmentalists, "places a significant burden on the mining industry and could have a significant impact on jobs." He also opposes the proposed fees....

....Vassiliadis, a longtime Nevada power broker, is a member of Obama's Nevada steering committee and has contributed $2,300 to his campaign. He is a lobbyist for the Nevada Mining Association at the state level and the chief executive of the advertising and lobbying firm hired by two mining companies to lobby for them in Washington.... MUCH MORE


http://www.dailyyonder.com/obama-opposes-mining-law-ref...
Obama Opposes Mining Law Reform
11/08/2007
Sen. Barack Obama has said he thinks revisions to the Mining Law of 1872 passed by the House are too onerous on companies. Campaigning in Nevada, Obama said the House proposal to impose a four percent royalty on mining companies operating on federal land was too high. Obamas position was a hit with the National Association of Manufacturers. We couldnt agree more, NAM said in its ShopFloor blog. The environmental blog Grist couldnt agree less.

http://news.rgj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071107...
Obama: New mining bill too tough on companies
ANJEANETTE DAMON
RENO GAZETTE-JOURNAL
Posted: 11/7/2007
The recent mining reform billed passed by the U.S. House is "not optimal" and should be rewritten to reduce the economic burden on mining companies, U.S. Sen. Barack Obama said Tuesday.
During a conference call with Nevada reporters to present his rural agenda, Obama said he would seek a better compromise on the bill now that it is in the U.S. Senate.
"What's clear to me is that the legislation that has been proposed places a significant burden on the mining industry and could have a significant impact on jobs," he said. "We are going to have to keep on working to find the kind of legislation that is going to provide fair compensation for these federal lands and also enhances environmental protection (and) cleans up abandoned mines."
The legislation, passed
244-166, would impose 4 percent royalty fees on existing mines operating on federal land. New mines would be charged
8 percent.
Mines currently pay very little to use federal land under the 1872 Mining Law.
The position, while popular with rural Nevada voters who depend on jobs provided by the mining industry, could alienate environmental activists, political observers said. Both are important constituencies in the Jan. 19 Nevada Caucus.


Idaho Mountain Express: House waves bye-bye to 1872 mining law ...
"We have long passed the time when this 19th-century law can be depended upon ... Barack Obama Opposes House-Approved Mining Reform, Says It's Burdensome ...
www.mtexpress.com/index2.php?ID=2005117860

http://quartz.he.net/~beyondch/news/index.php?itemid=54...
The Obama Craze: Count Me Out
by Matt Gonzalez‚ Feb. 27‚ 2008

Part of me shares the enthusiasm for Barack Obama. After all, how could someone calling themself a progressive not sense the importance of what it means to have an African-American so close to the presidency? But as his campaign has unfolded, and I heard that we are not red states or blue states for the 6th or 7th time, I realized I knew virtually nothing about him.

<snipping>
This is a candidate who says he’s going to usher in change; that he is a different kind of politician who has the skills to get things done. He reminds us again and again that he had the foresight to oppose the war in Iraq. And he seems to have a genuine interest in lifting up the poor.

But his record suggests that he is incapable of ushering in any kind of change I’d like to see. It is one of accommodation and concession to the very political powers that we need to rein in and oppose if we are to make truly lasting advances.... A MUST READ!!

http://www.thinkingarizona.com/?p=43
February 19th, 2008 at 07:52 pm by Larry in Environment, Howard Shanker, Misc, Native Americans, Political Issues

Barack Obama needs to change his stance (see: Obama’s Position on Mining Law Questioned…) on the Mining Law of 1872 and the use of nuclear power to solve our energy needs. First on the mining law, why should the taxpayer continue to foot the bill to clean up mines and for the medical bills of people who are sickened by mining pollution? Take a look at what Asarco has left the citizens of Hayden and Winkleman in Arizona! Asarco made the profit and leaves toxic waste that affects the health of everyone in the area. When sued to clean things up and take care of their former workers and families, mining companies simply file bankruptcy and the U.S. taxpayers are left to take care the environment and the sick.

By not supporting changes in the mining law, Barack Obama allows the mining companies to make a killer profit at the taxpayer’s expense. These multi-national mining companies employ people for a couple dozen years then pack up and leave the miners to fend for themselves. When it comes to polluting the environment, the mining companies bring in their experts to argue that everything is fine and despite counter-arguments and studies by the U.S. Government they basically get off free-and-clear of any responsibility.

Also see:
He loves gold
http://www.lasvegasgleaner.com/las_vegas_gleaner/2007/1...
http://www.lvrj.com/news/11077406.html
http://voices.idahostatesman.com/2008/01/11/rockybarker...
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2007/1...

And there's plenty more where those came from!

[H2O Man]

5. Thank you for the

information. I will read it.

[theHandpuppet]

6. You're very welcome

Thank YOU for this thread. It is a rare day indeed when anyone expresses an interest in this subject, much less takes the time to write such a post as yours.

[RichardRay]

17. Wyoming and coal

Wyoming is the #1 coal producing state in the country. It's likely to remain so, and until we can, as a country and as an economy, figure out how to change our energy consumption patterns we will continue to burn coal. In the past couple of months Wyoming became the first state to establish a framework for managing carbon sequestration projects and businesses. As a result we already have a project in place to establish operating parameters for coal burning power plants with emission levels a small fraction of current practices. The University of Wyoming has a full scale research focus on technology and applications to help use coal with less impact, as well as developing commercially viable wind and geothermal generating capability.

We mine low sulphur coal, we burn it as cleanly as possible and are getting better at that every year. We are limited now, not by production or generating capacity, but by transmission capacity. If the folks who are hurting with high utility costs would help build the transmission lines there's enough generating capacity in Wyoming to supply far more electicity at a much lower price than we are now; there just has to be someway to move it. Efforts to add wind generating capacity are hampered by the same constraint. In the last two years several transmission line projects have been defeated in favor of projects to help move the raw coal to power plants in the states where the power will be used. That's purely a political decision, from an economic or environmental perspective it makes no sense whatsoever.

Coal mining companies want assistance to convert to cleaner technologies. One good reason to support that is that they will, quite consciously, be throwing the money down a rat hole. As soon as we can we will abandon the new plants, stop using the resources and no longer need the technology. But, we want it developed as quickly as possible and installed everywhere. That's a perfect reason for government to participate in the financing - the changes make no business sense, but there is a pressing social need.

I don't want us to burn coal one day longer than we need to, but for now, the day we can stop is off in the distance someplace. Trying to damn a politician and leader for seeking ways to work with coal mining interests is just as silly as damning the same person for being willing to negotiate in any other conflict. It's the way we get through the rough parts.

If I were in West Virginia, I'd probably feel very differntly about coal, nothing I say here is meant to excuse the social, economic or environmental damage perpetrated there.

[rosesaylavee]

9. Thank you for this post.

I had concerns about a liquid coal plant that Senator Obama was supporting in Southern Illinois earlier this year. But last I heard/read (and I will try to find a link) that Obama backed off of his support of it due to the outcry from his otherwise supportive state dems. I was also under the impression that his connection or rather his consulting with Mr. Gore would have dissuaded him from persuing this path.

I will try to find the link that indicated he was reversing his past stance on coal.

[mod mom]

16. One of the reason's I support Sen Obama is his open mind. It will be up to us

to make sure he follows through on what is best for the environment. I believe Sen Obama will make the tough decisions that will anger some but benefit society.

[MagickMuffin]

7. Funny how Hillary in her speech last night quoted the bible "Faith can move a Mountain"

I was wondering at the time if she was referring to Mountain Top Removal. Since she is in favor of the procedure.

Some links

Our very own Dems Will Win did an excellent post on the topic:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5156029

http://www.appvoices.org/index.php?/frontporch/blogposts/responses_to_hillarys_position_on_mtr/

This link has some of the same info from Dems Will Win, however, there is an audio link to a recent interview but it isn't the Clinton interview.

http://www.wvablue.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=1917

[Marrah_G]

8. Thank you for this thread H2O.

I hope Obama (assuming he is the Nominee) takes the best minds this country has to offer and puts them to work in the appropriate positions.

That alone would go a long way to fixing what is ailing this country.

[H2O Man]

12. Both Clinton and Obama

supporters live on the same land, breath the same air, and drink the same water. More, our children and nieces and nephews and grandchildren do, too. And so don't our friends and neighbors and co-workers.

We do not have the luxury of allowing petty differences to divide and separate us at this time in human history. Indeed, as you say, we need to put our minds together, and work towards the goals that benefit us all.

[patrice]

10. More reasons to fight coal-powered power plalnts.

We've mostly been just talking about air quality. Thanks for this; the images evoked are powerful ones.

[KittyWampus]

14. there is no way we will get around using more coal in the near future. It's an absolute certainty

we will be doing it.

Rather than waste resources trying to stop it, we need to regulate the mining industry.

Petroleum is indeed reaching peak supply (for rich/easy kind). Industrial nations have very few options left.

[WillyT]

11. Link To The Film's Site:

Link: http://www.burningthefuture.com/

:hi:

K & R !!!

:kick:

[H2O Man]

22. Thanks!

Much appreciated.

[WillyT]

42. Anytime O, Anytime...

:bounce::hi::bounce:

[MagickMuffin]

13. Apparently Obama has been listening to people in the Environmental Movement

We at the DeSmogBlog would like to acknowledge a mistake in “awarding” presidential hopeful Barack Obama a 2007 SmogMaker prize for his position on global warming.

This was one of five prizes that we gave out last week in an attempt to call attention to the distracting – and sometimes outright deceptive – messages that certain people and companies promote when they talk about climate change.

Given that Barack Obama is far from the worst offender on this file, we hoped his nomination might shock people to attention. We wanted to generate discussion about the positions that all the presidential hopefuls have taken (or not) on climate change. The media – and most of the candidates – have ignored the issue almost entirely, a fact we hoped to stress by pointing out that even the best-informed candidate’s position seems inadequate to the huge task ahead.


Well, we succeeded in generating discussion, beginning in our own organization.


Reacting to our news release, Chris Mooney jumped immediately to Obama’s defence. Mooney, author of The Republican War on Science and the most recent Stormworld, Hurricanes, Politics and the Battle Over Global Warming, said: “There remains a huge gap between what is scientifically and climatically necessary on global warming, and what is politically feasible in the US. So no sane candidate is going to be able to completely satisfy environmental interests right now. … I think it’s a mistake to therefore attack the candidates who take the problem seriously as they try to walk this difficult line.”


Ross Gelbspan, whose defining books Boiling Point and The Heat is On were a big part of the inspiration for starting the DeSmogBlog, also spoke up for Obama’s position: “I think he’s made a giant step for a politician, given that he comes from a coal state, in backing off his unqualified support of CCS (carbon capture and storage) and other coal technologies. Initially, he was pushing coal. After the environmentalists talked to him, he strongly qualified his approach – supporting only proven CCS technology. That means the guy can listen – and can change his position according to what he learns.”

These and some of the previously reported criticisms of our position are well taken. While we would always hope for better, we must acknowledge that Obama’s position is a stunning improvement over the current standard and a clear notch up from the other serious contenders. We would like to apologize – to withdraw the award – and to wish him the best in continuing to refine and improve his position.

http://www.desmogblog.com/desmogblog-apologizes-to-barack-obama

Senator Hillary Clinton expressed enthusiasm for coal and failed to condemn mountaintop removal during an interview yesterday on West Virginia Public Radio. Today, Senator Barack Obama delivered a speech in West Virginia advocating so-called “clean coal” as a solution to global warming.

In her interview, Clinton said “coal fits in very importantly” to America’s energy future, arguing that “the challenge is how we are going to continue using coal” and using the coal industry’s misleading term “clean coal” to discuss proposed carbon capture and sequestration technology, which has not yet been proved to be technologically feasible or commercially viable. When asked about the devastating practice of mountaintop mining, Clinton expressed concern but then attempted to frame the issue as a choice between an “economic and environmental trade-off,” which demonstrated a fundamental lack of understanding of the issue.

“This jobs angle is so phony. Coal production in the U.S. has increased in the past 50 years but coal jobs have dropped more than 80 percent. This is not helping local economies. Mountaintop mining in particular harms the communities where the mining takes place, which tend to be the most impoverished communities in Appalachia,” Blackwelder said. “We need to envision a new healthy green economy for West Virginia, one in which we conserve energy and transition to clean energy alternatives, including solar and wind. It’s time to cut the coal.”

Clinton’s mountaintop removal comments yesterday have come under fire from the green and progressive netroots. Obama has spoken out against mountaintop removal, but his position on coal still leaves much to be desired.

In his speech today in West Virginia, Obama advocated “investing in renewable sources of energy, and in clean coal technology, and creating up to 5 million new green jobs in the bargain, including new clean coal jobs.” And his record leaves much room for improvement. Obama has worked closely with the coal industry in the past, supports coal subsidies and repeatedly uses the inaccurate term “clean coal” in his communications.

More:

http://www.commondreams.org/news2008/0320-07.htm

[H2O Man]

38. One of the main reasons

I decided to support Senator Obama is because I believe that he has the capacity to listen and learn. These are the skills that he developed as a community organizer, and they are essential in a person who desires to be a true leader.

[mod mom]

15. RFK Jr's The True Cost of Coal (No such thing as "clean coal"!)

Coal's True Cost
Posted November 29, 2007 | 09:31 PM (EST)

Last evening's GOP CNN/YouTube debate and the Democratic presidential debate on November 15 were jointly sponsored by a coal industry coalition comprised of mining, railroad and utility interests.

Their high profile civic involvement is designed to further confuse American voters about coal's true cost to our society. Many of the Republican candidates have endorsed massive new subsidies for King Coal and dutifully parrot industry talking points including earnest promises of cheap "clean coal." Given that climate change is the most urgent threat to our collective survival, it is shocking that no debate moderator has pressed the candidates to clearly state their positions on "clean coal."

In fact, there is no such thing as "clean coal." And coal is only "cheap" if one ignores its calamitous externalized costs. In addition to global warming, these include dead forests and sterilized lakes from acid rain, poisoned fisheries in 49 states and children with damaged brains and crippled health from mercury emissions, millions of asthma attacks and lost work days and thousands dead annually from ozone and particulates. Coal's most catastrophic and permanent impacts are from mountaintop removal mining. If the American people could see what I have seen from the air and ground during my many trips to the coalfields of Kentucky and West Virginia: leveled mountains, devastated communities, wrecked economies and ruined lives, there would be a revolution in this country.

Well now you can visit coal country without ever having to leave your home. Every presidential candidate and every American ought to take a few seconds to visit an ingenious new website created by Appalachian Voices, that allows one to tour the obliterated landscapes of Appalachia. And it's not just Arch Coal, Massey Coal and their corporate toadies in electoral politics who are culpable for the disaster. The amazing new website allows you to enter your zip code to learn how you're personally connected to the great crime of mountaintop removal. Using this website Americans from Maine to California can see these mountains and the communities that were sacrificed to power their home. The tool uses Google Maps and Google Earth as interfaces to a large database of power plants and mountaintop removal coal mines. A November 15, 2007 article in the Wall Street Journalhighlighted the site as one of the most innovative, cutting-edge uses of these powerful tools. The site puts a human face on the issue by highlighting the stories of families living in the shadows of these mines.

Each day the coal barons from companies like Massey and Arch detonate 2500 tons of explosives-the power of a Hiroshima bomb every week-to blow away Appalachian mountain tops to reach the coal seams beneath. Colossal machines then plow the rock and debris into the adjacent river valleys and hollows, destroying forests and burying free-flowing mountain streams, flattening North America's most ancient mountain range. According to EPA 1,200 miles of American rivers and streams have already been permanently interred and 470 of Appalachia's largest mountains have simply disappeared, leaving behind giant pits and barren moonscapes, some as large as Manhattan Island. I recently flew over one 18 square-mile pit - Hobet 21 - which you can now tour on Google Earth!

-snip

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-f-kennedy-jr/coals-true-cost_b_74738.html

[mmonk]

18. So what are you saying exactly?

Environmental positions should be part of the equation or something about the ticket?

[H2O Man]

20. I found some of

the threads yesterday, from both pro-Clinton and -Obama supporters, had missed what I think is an extremely important topic. I recognize that neither candidate is going to stop coal mining; more, I use electricity, and so I am a participant in the national coal-burning issue.

I think that it is important that we not only include environmental positions in the campaign, but that we make sure to be inclusive. I strongly support Senator Obama, but at the same time, I have great respect for Robert Kennedy, Jr. (I've spoken before about having had his help when I advocated for a rural hamlet that was being poisoned by a huge industrial toxic waste dump site.) I think that rather than having DUers divided and engaged in bitter disputes about the significance of West Virginia, we should be able to find some common ground where we can agree on positions important to the democratic party. Although the majority of democrats there voted for Senator Clinton there in the primary yesterday, I want to keep open discussions with them, so that we can advance our shared values in the future. That includes their supporting our ticket in the fall, and my doing everything I can to bring their issues to the attention of Senator Obama and his campaign aides.

[mmonk]

21. Thanks. Got it.

I hope everyone is amenable to repair. I hope to see it from the Clinton camp at some point. They hold our fate in their hands IMO to a certain degree.

[H2O Man]

25. I'd like to see

Obama offer RFK Jr the top job at the EPA.

[mmonk]

27. That would be most excellent.

I would like that too. Our environmental welfare would be in great hands.

[theHandpuppet]

30. Respectfully...

Do you know what message I, as a working-class West Virginian, got from Obama this primary season? That we don't count. That he can't be bothered. That he'll jump like a frog from a hot rock to the defense of mine owners and outdated laws that rape the land and kill its people, but the people IN the mines and who live near the poisoned creeks are an expendable demographic. Beneath his royal contempt. The "untouchables".

You might say that's an overreaction or even a knee-jerk reaction but I can tell you there are plenty of folks here who share it. When Mr. Obama wins the nod for the nomination and expects West Virginians will fall in line after he bestows his righteous forgiveness upon us, don't be surprised if they turn away. We learned a long time ago that those who curry favor for us only for November will forget us in December. (And that's been true ever since RFK was assassinated.) I think Obama missed a golden opportunity by ignoring West Virginia, if only to send a message that he really does give a damn, votes or not. This election is not about a machine, or delegate counts or demographics -- it's about human beings. It's about showing and proving that "hope" is more than a word.

I don't mean to stray too much from the thread topic but I also believe this is probably one of the very few threads on GDP where I can honestly express my feelings on this subject among both Clinton and Obama supporters who care and who are willing to listen. You will have to pardon me if I come off a bit raw right now -- after hearing an entire state dismissed here on this forum as inbred morons, trailer trash, ignorant racist banjo-picking outhouse dwellers? This is not the Democratic Party of compassion which, as a young idealist, I grew to know and love.

Very soon there will be another primary vote in Kentucky. As a woman whose father was born on Racoon Creek in Pike County, KY and still has family down there, I am bracing myself for the barrage of bilious invectives and stereotypes that will be hurled at my people when the vote does not go as they wish. If only they, like some of you here, would take even a cursory interest in the land, its history and people, they might give pause before they hit the send button.

I would like to leave y'all with THIS message, one I embraced as a young Democratic activist but which serves as a good reminder to us -- and particularly to the people of Appalachia -- what true hope and democratic ideals once meant.

http://www.communityarts.net/readingroom/archivefiles/2004/08/when_kennedy_ca.php
(excerpts)

While the Tet Offensive raged in Vietnam in February 1968, Robert F. Kennedy was on the mountain roads of southeastern Kentucky, shaking hands and setting fire to hearts from Vortex to Prestonsburg. Conducted as part of a Senate Subcommittee on Manpower, Employment and Poverty examination of War on Poverty practices, RFK’s Appalachian tour occurred one week before he announced his candidacy for President. A few months later he would be dead. But his visit touched off what the mountain people still call “a ripple of hope” that empowered them to take their future into their own hands...

...The folks of southeastern Kentucky remember RFK with extraordinary fondness. His touching intimacy and directness had a lasting effect on them, says attorney Jim Pruitt, a local Democratic Party activist who was only six when RFK came through. Pruitt now works in an office in Pikeville with pictures of “Kennedys looking at me from every direction.” He says he is inspired every day by a Bobby Kennedy quote from a speech in South Africa in 1966:

"Each time a man stands up for an ideal, or acts to improve the lot of others, or strikes out against injustice, he sends forth a tiny ripple of hope, and crossing each other from a million different centers of energy and daring, those ripples build a current which can sweep down the mightiest walls of oppression and resistance."

Thanks again for this thread.

[RichardRay]

34. I can't speak to your feelings about Senator Obama and WV

However, please note that his position re coal is a big winner with most a lot of folks in Wyoming. Our experience with coal is not the same as the people of West Virginia. For us it's still an important part of our natural resource base, it supplies a wide range of good paying jobs, research grants flow into the state universities and business development and housing grants into struggling communities. Our housing markets are NOT following the national trends, due largely to energy demand. We're supporting research and development to find ways to use it during a period of transition to cleaner energy. Governor Freudenthal and the Wyoming state legislature recently led the nation in providing a framework through with carbon sequestration can be developed and managed, and projects are already funded and breaking ground. We have similar efforts underway for wind and geothermal, but until we get improved transmission capability out of the Intermountain West to the markets for the energy there's not much more we can do, there.

If I were a West Virginia coal miner I'm pretty damn sure I'd have a different perspective on King Coal and coal mining, and I can understand that it doesn't taste the same way there it does here.

[H2O Man]

36. In his book

"Crimes Against Nature," Robert tells about the role of Peabody Energy, the world's largest coal company (pages 117-118). I am familiar with their tactics, as the result of decades of Native American rights work.

In his book "Indian Country," Peter Matthiessen (author of "In the Spirit of Crazy Horse") includes a dozen pages on Peabody. They have long exploited Indian people, perhaps most famously by attempting to create hostilities between the Navajo and Hopi (see chapter 3, "Mesas.")

It appears that many of those same tactics are being used to divide neighbors and families in West Virginia.

I do not know why Barack Obama opted to not campaign in your state. I certainly understand why residents there would feel the way that you describe. I can say that I will pass on the essence of your message to someone in his campaign. It is important that they hear it.

[theHandpuppet]

39. Thank you for offering to pass this along

And thank you for listening.

:thumbsup:

[H2O Man]

40. Thank you

for speaking openly and honestly. I appreciate the opportunity to listen.

[Usrename]

43. Paradise

Paradise
By John Prine, Walden Music, Adapted by A. Moock

When I was a child my parents would travel
Down to Western Kentucky, where my parents were born
There's a backwards old town there that's often remembered
So many times that my memories are worn

Chorus:
And daddy won't you take me back to Muhlenburg County
Down by the Green River where Paradise lay
Well I'm sorry my son but you're too late in asking
Mr. Peabody's coal train has hauled it away

And sometimes we'd travel right down the Green River
To the abandoned old prison up by Adree Hill
Where the air smelled like snakes and we'd shoot with our pistols
But empty pop bottles was all we would kill

Chorus

Then the coal company came with the world's largest shovel
They tortured the timber and they stripped all the land
They dug for their coal 'til the land was forsaken
And they wrote it all down as the progress of man

Chorus

When I die let my ashes float down the Green River
Let my soul float on up to the Rochester Dam
I'll be half way to heaven with Paradise waiting
Just a half mile away from wherever I am

Chorus


on edit> I remember the chorus a little differently:

well I'm a sorry man, son, but your too late in asking,
Mr. Peabody's coal train has hauled it away

[Me.]

19. I Am Curious As To Why He Didn't Spend More Time In W Va.

We know that when he makes himself visible he does better. Given his 50 state strategy, I'm curious as to why more of an effort wasn't made there. The only thing I can thi regardingnk is that in relative terms, when time is short and so much to do, that the number of delegates and population, it was considered less important to his win than other states.

[H2O Man]

26. It's a good question.

I would agree that it is most likely that his campaign had to make a decision based on resources, including the amount of time available to invest in each of the remaining primaries.

[SoonerPride]

28. Not enough time to make up serious ground

With only a week between Indana/N Carolina and W Va, there wasn't enough time to make up enough ground to justify the expense and effort.

It is better to focus resources and efforts on the general election campaign.

He's already secued the party nomination. We're just playing out the string to let Clinton go out on her own terms and then on June 3rd he'll relase all the supers in his folio and it will be officially over.

Why waste time and money in a contest which really was meaningless?

[theHandpuppet]

32. It wasn't meaningless to US

But that's surely the message that was sent.

[Me.]

33. I Think The Week Of Time Limitation

Speaks to a good reason. The Clintons are well known nationally and Obama is having to introduce himself to people who don't know him. Some 16% of the people in this country still believes he's a Muslim.

[theboss]

29. What was he going to do? Cut it to 35 percent?

West Virginia voters are hard-headed.

My guess is that if you follow the polls, there was no movement over the last year.

[Blue_Roses]

23. I have been reading up on mountain-top removal and it's horrible

I didn't realize this had been going on. The mountains are my favorite place to go. Our family went to the Smokey Mts. every summer and to think of any of these beautiful natural resources being destroyed is heart-breaking:cry:

are you familiar with this website:
http://www.ilovemountains.org/

[H2O Man]

24. Thank you for that link.

Sometimes when I read these things, I am reminded of decades ago, when Chief Oren Lyons told a group of people that they should study what happens to Indian people very carefully. What they are doing to us today, he said, is exactly what they will do to you tomorrow.

And when I see the many groups of dedicated environmental activists across this land, I am also reminded of a lesson that Chief Paul Waterman taught me: alone, we are like individual fingers that our enemy can easily break, but united, we form a powerful fist that is capable of protecting all of us.

Those are both good lessons for grass roots democrats to consider today, especially when we have people trying to divide us.

[theHandpuppet]

31. A friendly kick for a worthy thread.

:kick:

[spanone]

35. k & r

[anonymous171]

37. K&R

[Scurrilous]

41. K & R

:thumbsup:

[Tom Rinaldo]

44. Great post H2O Man. K&R

[bridgit]

45. Sir...please! I am fully aware, of your position with respect to Barack Obama...

Your 'particular' position, not to put too fine a point on it. Reading this OP, and in spite of it's various attempts to nod wherever it seems will it be taken otherwise as contrary. I see you performing wondrous gymnastics, as is your way and for which you are beloved, still...to validate by way of entities such as: The Sundance Channel (so as to 'put it to bed'; in that who will argue with Redford) yet some items remain with great persistance...

Coal, and I wish it were otherwise; yet coal accounts for a considerable percentile of the energy needs of America, and in spite of any efforts to paint the people of WV as somehow acquiesced, ignorantly, I hear you suggesting, to the rape of the known world...coal does not exist in the recoverable deposits of WV alone http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/northamerica/enginfr3.htm

"yet to hear any of the people on the cable news attributing Senator Clinton’s support to her positions on the environment" Yea! Verily! Tis true, in that they are all supporting Obama's http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=1&vote=00213 including Bush & Cheney. And it is no longer acceptable to decry the 3bil tax offset that many here do as a means to further explain away their candidates painful support of a closed door energy policy that did in no way require an IWR in that that was the reason we went there. Besides, we all know that 3bil to Exxon is chump/piker change and we watch that bare out at the pump & futures exchange every single day and counting.

Nor the winks & nods to alternative energy, when there've been carburetors on the shelves of Detroit for years that could have given us 10's of MPG more than we clamor for today. We drive through wind farms east of SF all the time, yet Chesapeake Bay will not have them as they are an eye-sore, ergo...

You want to save Appalachia? Do as was done in Northern Ireland? Bring software firms, and industry...maybe even green industry to Appalachia? Then talk to the people that continue to utilize/invest in the fossil deposits of this, and other nations with wanton recklessness; it befalls me to inform instead...

But that will likely not occur till the stock portfolios of the investor class, wealthy, & uber-wealthy have become maturated. They will not leave a stock un-fulfilled http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2999697.stm Even then that will not likely happen until we are poised to switch to the next level of physics. There is a commercial running on TV where a guy up in a high rise chastises other folks/viewers for maybe not understanding that he just invested in Chinese oil with the click of a mouse. My, my; how easy! Ladies & Jellyspoons! I give you: the investor class. Sadly, not the people of Appalachia.

Either way, I, for one, cannot wait for the change...all of it!


Yet nearly every single DUer, and I use 'nearly' in that some may actually be out there spinning their own turbine and selling back to the grid which I consider more commendable than any candidate; but for practical purposes...nearly every single DUer buys into this template when they log on, watch KO, The Price Is Right, primary returns, or cheer for their favorite Corporate Sports Franchise on FoxSports TV

Something, someone has to keep these turbines spinning so that you & I are able to benefit from this broadband we call home too often. The people of WV are working in jobs with skill-sets that are quite beyond the comprehension of many an everyday American. Certainly many a DUer. I therefore dismiss your dismissal, of the people of WV.

Paradise by John Prine

Doc Watson - Deep River Blues

Bob Dylan - To Ramona

[McCamy Taylor]

46. K and R