Do folks here berate strangers in public, face to face, about their support for Clinton?

[bigtree]

It's amazing how many folks feel empowered by the distance they have on this board to talk down to supporters of their candidate's Democratic rival. The tone of the 'advice' dished out here isn't the least bit respectful. I really can't imagine there are this many folks out there who are openly feeding their peers the same amount of crap that's dished out here all day to perfect strangers. And, the incredible thing is, they are DEMANDING support for their candidate.

I'm really tired of being called a racist (among other things) for supporting Hillary Clinton.

I realize that most of the rhetoric is just naive, and, other expressions are just frustrated attempts at advocacy. But, if we just took a moment to imagine we were speaking to each other face to face, we would, perhaps, present a more respectful argument on behalf of our candidate of choice. (I'm pretty aggressive in person, but I haven't been slugged yet).

I'm keeping this at the front of my own advocacy here (albeit, much less in front of my defenses against ignorant and disrespectful confrontations and displays).

It's a strange bunch, here at DU. We get lost in this bubble sometimes.

[bigscott]

1. thanks Bigtree

peace to you!
BigScott

[roguevalley]

96. twice. one time when they used the n word. have a problem with that?

[PoliticalAmazon]

135. If Clinton supporters acted in public like some Clinton supporters do on DU...

I wouldn't scream at them, but I would simply shrug, think "Irrelevant" and move on.

IMO, Clinton supporters who are willing to climb on the cross over any little thing, who claim any criticism of Hillary is sexism, and who believe Hillary is doing a good thing by using Bush/Rove tactics and bigot-panderng, probably won't change their opinions, probably won't vote for Obama, and any kind of interaction with them would be a waste of time. They are simply looking for a target for their whining, and that ain't gonna be me.

I didn't tolerate it from my daughter when she was little, and I'm sure not going to tolerate it from an adult.

Understand, I think we need Hillary supporters to win in November, but if I meet a Hillary supporter anywhere who is spoiling for a fight or looking for a target to whine at, there is probably nothing I can say or do that will change their minds because, IMO, they are no longer acting in a logical manner and, therefore, reasoning won't work with them.

[Waya]

2. Once.....

...down at the local gas pump. Was a particularly rabid Hillary shill - thought the sun rose and set in Hillary. Could have sworn she walked on water......... it was too much....

[Starbucks Anarchist]

3. And I'm tired of being called an ignorant kool-aid drinker.

That's not aimed at you, because you're one of the most fair Hillary supporters here, but there's venom coming from both sides.

[Occam Bandage]

4. It is presumed that one is in GD:P to talk about the primaries. If you don't want that,

go to other forums.

[merh]

23. Ditto!

If they can't handle the heat they need to get out of the kitchen! :hi:

[anonymous171]

5. At my local caucus, I screamed at an old lady for supporting Clinton.

Wait, nevermind, that old lady was actually screaming at me for supporting Obama. I guess I wasn't that intimidating after all.

[ShortnFiery]

6. I can almost set my clock to it: "Feigned Indignation" by HRC supporters.

It's really getting old. :(

[totodeinhere]

It's all they have left. They can't credibly argue that their candidate is viable, so...

resort to whining.

[bigtree]

92. you actually spent time today denigrating my positive promotion of my candidate

just an hour or so ago.

How incredible to find you here complaining that we 'can't credibly argue that (our) candidate is viable'. WE don't have to justify anything to your demands. That must frustrate you more than anything. It just galls you that we feel free to support the candidate of our choice for the remainder of this primary. Why do you hate democracy?

[kerry-is-my-prez]

148. Pot calling kettle black. Obama supporters whine just as much.

and I can't figure out becasue their candidate has been the one getting all of the benefits. Hillary has been the one getting shit on.

[Lerkfish]

38. "manufactured martyrdom"

[PoliticalAmazon]

136. "climbing on the cross" or, as my mother used to say...

"Put your feet together, darlin', we're running out of nails."

[JuniperLea]

73. And I can set mine by your verbal evisceration of the same...

What do you get from it? Why is it necessary? Don't you think Obama might want their support during the GE? We're going to need every Dem vote we can scrape together so the race isn't close enough to steal... and we can't assume we already have that.

[newmajority]

7. I honestly don't know anybody in the "real world" who supports Hillary

So it's not really possible for me to answer that question.

[VotesForWomen]

152. maybe you should leave the cult compound once in a while; she's got almost 50% of the vote, so how i

is it possible that you don't know anyone who supports her? maybe you live in a little obama-loving cocoon.

[unc70]

156. Then your "real world" is very limited.

The real world I inhabit has a lot of supporters for various candidates. I supported Edwards, not that excited about Obama or Clinton. See way too many who will vote for McCain in November here in NC.

DU is so far from reality. Go back and look at the discussions from late 2004 on the boards here. Kerry in a landslide.

I have been caught up in campaigns (e.g. 1968), have worked my butt off, and usually have lost. Nearly 60, I have voted for only two presidents, Carter and Clinton. Only Carter carried my state of NC.

[emilyg]

172. Your world is not mine.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

8. No, I just laugh then ignore them.

[Joe the Revelator]

9. So is this the "drip drip drip" strategy employed for whining?

You went from being a good poster to now having two whiney posts in as many days.

[bigtree]

123. sorry I'm not your 'good' poster anymore

:eyes:

[SaveAmerica]

132. I think he/she means fair-minded. I can understand going from fair to frustrated, I'm there too.

[Warren DeMontague]

10. Yes. I chase them down in my prius, toss my latte at them, and stomp em with my birkenstocks.

Then I pummel them with my trust fund and my lazy, never-worked-a-day-in-my-life hands.

:eyes:

[Phillycat]

11. Happened to me on the street in Philadelphia.

One on one, too. Surprised the heck out of me. A woman was on the street with an Obama sign on primary day, with her two kids, maybe 8 and 10 years old. I was walking past and said, with a big smile, "Are you two even old enough to vote?" They both laughed and said no, but they were helping their mom. The mom got in my face and said, "I HOPE you voted for Obama." I said, no actually, I voted for Hillary, but I was sure glad to see those kids involved in the political process at their ages and hoped they'd stay interested in it. She yelled "That's a SHAME you voted for HER, you should have voted for Obama, and my kids would never vote like YOU did." Right in my face, very aggressive. I moved away quickly.

I got called a "racist fuck" that same day for my Hillary button; that was teenagers, though, so I don't know how seriously to take it.

Obama supporters are very aggressive and seem mostly nasty, in my experiences with them.

[Jamastiene]

168. They don't actually inspire and sense of "unity," "hope," OR "change" to me.

I'll never be able to trust them at all. That much I know for sure.

[LisaM]

12. It's funny. I have a Hillary button and I was initially afraid to wear it in public

I was worried people would start yelling at me (seriously). The opposite happened; a couple of women were very nice to me and we chatted a little. I just about fell over.

I heard one story (here) about how a woman had her daughter at a parade in the spring, and, according to her, some overeager Obama supporters shoved her daughters out of the way so that their signs would be on television.

And I have a friend, or FORMER friend, who now thinks I'm a racist. I tried to have a discussion with her last week about it - I just wanted to point out things said on both sides - but I think our friendship is irrepably damaged.

A real concern I have is that if the Obama people can't even be nice to fellow Democrats, how is that going to play out with Republicans? Look at what happened in West Virginia. DUers couldn't say enough insulting things about the state. If they act like this in the GE it's going to be a problem. Even if we can win the GE (and we should be able to), you can't leave your opponents smarting like that. Hillary supporters will soldier on and will continue to work for Democratic causes. Republicans will look for revenge.

[bigtree]

20. most folks I encounter are very careful when discussing politics

I just listen to the aggressive ones without too much comment (unless they get offensive or ugly). Folks need to vent sometimes.

[tekisui]

142. That is my experience, as well.

When entering into political discussions, especially with those you don't know well, people usually do so carefully, step by step. See where the parameters are, where the agreements are and on to more details.

When I meet rabid RWers, I have nothing to say, I ignore them, or find very broad areas of agreement. When I meet Clinton supporters in everyday life, I talk much more about what we have in common, the excitement of the Democratic Party and the horror of McDubya.

If I am sharing some beers with someone, who I know well, we will allow for a more heated, but respectful debate. A lost of us know each other, here. At least their politics and forum personality. I wouldn't be rude to you, bigtree, by any means. I respect your work, and what you post here.

There are some who I playfully jab, and it goes both ways. There are also some here who under the guise of being HIllary supporters are in actuality Obama-bashers. I see many who have never posted a positives about either candidate, only negatives about one. Those get little respect.

[carolinayellowdog]

140. Please drop it with "the" Obama people

I have found SOME Clinton supporters *at DU* to be the most relentlessly aggressive, nasty, horrible bunch I have ever encountered anywhere. (Not that I ever went to Freeperville.) But I would never generalize from that EXTREMELY limited and unrepresentative group to Clinton supporters in general. In fact, the majority of those I've put on ignore have so outrageously hateful that I have serious doubts that they are real Hillary supporters at all-- they seem to be trying to force Democrats to hate other Democrats. Cui bono?

You seem like a good, sincere person and I accept that you will vote for Obama if he's nominated. But would ask that you put aside this BS about "THE Obama people"-- 16 million voters at this point-- based on your observations of about ~160 of us here and your lost friend. Likewise, I will never, ever hold against Hillary supporters IN GENERAL the horrendous abusive behavior I have seen here at DU for month after month. They are not responsible for it; a handful of provocateurs whose real motives are unknown to me are the ones who have crapped all over DU and then complained about the nasty smell.

[jenmito]

13. I don't KNOW anyone who supports Hillary.

[juajen]

26. You need to get out more, sugah. NT

[jenmito]

51. I know lots of people, sugah.

[VotesForWomen]

155. yep, and they say it's not a cult.

[Phillycat]

30. You must have a very small group of friends, then.

Out of the 1,003,623 people in New York who voted for her, you don't know a single one? Do you live in a cryo chamber?

[enid602]

35. no

Mom's basement.

[jenmito]

55. You talking about yourself?

[jenmito]

53. I know people who USED to support her-ALL of whom now support Obama.

[2rth2pwr]

32. You sound just like Pauline Kael.

[jenmito]

60. Thanks.

[PoliticalAmazon]

138. I have a friend who supports Hillary. We don't talk politics. n/t

[Midlodemocrat]

153. I know many. I'm surprised you don't know any.

Where my brother lives in NYC, almost his entire zip code is pro-Hillary. :shrug:

[Saturday]

14. I think they feel safe because of their numbers.

There is always someone that comes along to back them up or give them a high five for the most outlandish comments. The uglier you are the more you are lauded. Sad but true.

ETA - Having said that, I have had a couple nice conversations lately with them so maybe they're maturing.

[casus belli]

15. That's kind of the point of the board no?

I think a number of topics we discuss here are unsuitable for general conversation making in public. And I really wouldn't have it any other way. On a board you can engage, and disengage at will without the awkwardness of terminating a real conversation. The real trick is, learning not to be equally invested emotionally in an anonymous board discussion as you would if it were conducted face-to-face. I think that's where most people, myself included, get hung up.

We may not always agree, and that's good. I'm not looking for a board to parrot my own views. I like to be challenged and have my views critiqued. Ultimately, most of us share a common core of progressive values. And I think that's the glue that holds this imperfect medium together.

All the best to you... unless you're a Hillary supporter in which case, bite me.

I kid. I kid. :hug:

[LisaM]

28. No, I don't think non-civil discourse is the point of a board

Discourse, sure, but there's no reason to be purposely nasty.


On edit: not saying YOU are purposely nasty, but there are some vitriolic types here.

[casus belli]

34. That sometimes happens in "real life" as well.

It's not the preferable way to communicate, to be sure. But, lively debates are rarely tidy and without incidents no matter the forum. And, after all, there are other forums here that have far less of what you describe. So it's not as if you can't escape it if you choose to.

[LisaM]

54. I have no problem with lively! I'm pretty feisty.

I just try not to call names, accuse the opponent of being a traitor, that sort of thing.

[casus belli]

59. I agree with you

I think we could all do with a nice infusion of civility.

[Mass]

16. Well, I have been called sexist for not supporting Hillary. More than once.

(and BTW I am a woman). So, there are idiots everywhere. It seems we only see them on the opposite side.

[bigtree]

25. oh, no

I see the same zealous supporters on the Clinton side. I'm just in a bit of a personal funk over the way Clinton is being taken down here. Reminds me of what they used to do with in Russia with defunct leaders.

[casus belli]

41. This too, will pass

I think most of the bitterness is just passionate advocacy. I really do believe we'll all come together once the infighting has passed. It may take longer than some previous primaries, but if we are to forward a progressive agenda, we have to. I would have no qualms at all about voting for Hillary. I won't lie and tell you my opinion of her hasn't suffered, but I know it will be different when she's not tearing down my preferential candidate day after day. I think the opposite is true of most Hillary supporters. It's still too early to extend olive branches, which speaks to Hillary's tenacity as an opponent. But I will be standing next to you when this is over regardless of the outcome.

[seaglass]

149. It reminds me of what the Republicans have done for the

last 16 years - so I guess the Republicans were right after all:shrug:

[WA98070]

17. Anonymity emboldens people to stretch beyond societal norms not just on DU....

At my workplace a board was setup (by an employee) to exchange ideas to unite the employees. Unfortunately, in an interest of getting people to not fear management retribution the board was setup anonymous. It has become so much "junior high locker room" chest thumping including personal attacks that the majority no longer post. A few continue to attempt to raise the level of discourse but it doesn't work

Without anonymity people usually show at least a little respect.

[RichardRay]

18. I use the exact same tone in public I use here.

If an exchange goes on for awhile it may become a bit heated, but that's pretty rare.

I think the permission people give themselves in a place like DU is summed up in this cartoon.

[LoZoccolo]

19. I've been roaming the streets every night with an intimidating leather jacket on doing just that.

So the answer is "yes".

[LoZoccolo]

21. Also, this is what I do to strangers who support Nader.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xOdATCFM30

[H2O Man]

22. No.

I have many strange friends, including a lot that support Senator Clinton. We rarely meet in public to discuss politics, though. However, when we do get together and discuss/debate things, they tend to be rational and fully capable of recognizing that both Clinton and Obama have strengths and weaknesses. I assume most people have similar experiences with their stranger and even strangest friends.

[Dinger]

24. I'm For Hillary, Hubby Is For Obama, And

My son is for Obama, and future daughter-in-law is for Hillary. We have great discussions, nothing like here.

[bigtree]

29. my experience too, even with relative strangers. Very respectful discussions

. . . no ridicule, no venom, no cheap shots at the candidates.

[peace13]

27. I don't mean to be rude but do you get persecuted everywhere..

or just at DU? I ask this because I know a few people that the whole world seems to be against them but in reality it is their own attitude that isolates them. I know for myself, if I am having a bad day and everyone that I know is against me, that it is 100% true that it is me and not the world that needs an adjustment. I have noticed that you have an underlying tone in most of your OP's. I hope that you find happiness, my guess is that it won't be here.

[bigtree]

33. I'm fine

but, I'm weighing whether or not to advocate for our nominee from here. I think the overall tone here is corrosive and hurtful. If you don't care then step away. I don't need you to tell me how to cope.

[peace13]

52. You are good at twisting words.

I care, I just don't see your tactics as making this a better place. You can see by the responses here that your OP does not cause people to think, they fire back smart remarks. Let's' face it, it's not working. The way you insult me about not caring let's me know that a sincere response to you will be twisted. Go figure.

[bigtree]

61. this post isn't a 'tactic'

who's twisting now?

[Arkansas Granny]

74. The underlying tone I have noticed in most of bigtree's OPs has been fairness.

I have never seen bigtree say anything unkind about either candidate or any poster on this board.

[bigtree]

90. with supporters, I have my moments . . .

but with Sen. Obama, I have stayed away from the personal insults and ridicule.

[dailykoff]

31. Bigtree you've been praised repeatedly by Obama supporters.

Quit sniveling for pete's sake.

[bigtree]

39. No. That's nice, but it's no substitute for the total experience here

which has been overwhelmingly negative for me, personally. I don't expect that you could possibly be the judge of all of that for me.

Quit sniveling? Sheesh.

[BlueIdaho]

This Obama supporter disagrees.

I think BigTree's point is well made. As Democrats we are should have some core values - one of those values (I believe) is a respect for all all people and their right to hold opinions we do not embrace. Disagree - of course we will. Disagree without becoming disagreeable - now that takes some doing. It is easy to lose compassion sitting at a keyboard - especially after a long and protracted primary season but we owe it to ourselves to walk our talk as Democrats.

[dailykoff]

65. Hillary is not a victim and neither are her supporters.

She's had every imaginable advantage including the active support of BOTH parties, the media, the administration of DU, etc., and she's abused that good will in revolting ways. So I don't agree with the premise at all.

[Arkansas Granny]

36. Fortunately, the people I talk to in person, even Republicans who will

vote for John McCain, value my opinion and show more respect for Senator Clinton than many of the Democrats on this board. I can understand disagreement over policies, but the level of snark and personal attacks on fellow DUers has really surprised me.

[carolinayellowdog]

143. Can you accept that the same is true for Obama supporters?

I have never felt so totally hated by anyone in my life as by SOME self-described Clinton supporters here-- even without being personally attacked once-- just by all the outrageous attacks on Obama voters in general. The level of snark and personal attacks on fellow Duers has surprised me too, and I hope to see it end soon.

Don't rule out Republican trolls pretending to be on both sides and making us hate one another.

[Lerkfish]

37. I"m a martyr! look at me I'm a victim! martyr! victim! look at me!

I can't continue to defend dogwhistling and racial divisiness without being called on it! I must be a victim! I must gather with my other clinton supporters and whine incessantly!

[bigtree]

44. and you?

What are you in this display of yours? You're insulting, divisive, alienating, and disrupting . . . all in one short paragraph. Nice effort.

[Lerkfish]

50. irony

I imitate you and you accuse me of being what I'm accusing you of.

LOL.

[bigtree]

70. you presented a caricature of me. very mean spirited and arrogant

Lol, back at you.

[Lerkfish]

95. I guess the real crime here is (get ready for a little reality check and some history)

that clinton supporters early on engendered exactly this type of exchange in their hubris and condescension, in their characterization of anyone not supporting her as "looney left" "fringe left" "koolaid drinkers" "cultists", I could go on down the list but you get the idea.
At that time, many of us complained about the clinton supporter bad behaviour. In response, many of us were suspended or worse, and all of were subjected to "grief, swarm, and lock" where a roving band of clinton supporters would organize themselves into a mob and intentionally get any thread locked that were the least bit critical of Clinton.

so, we suffered under that for a while...while your candidate was the "inevitable one"... many us complained, but those complaints fell on deaf ears.

so now, the shoe is on the other foot, and all we get are clinton supporters whining about how unfair they are being treated: the SAME clinton supporters that mistreated other posters just a few months ago.

So, how does it feel? pretty crappy, huh? will you learn anything from it? doubtful. Clinton supporters still feel "entitled", they still feel the media is against them (which is delusional), and they still feel that the "left" members of the party should be punished.

Mean spirited and arrogant??? man, just do a search for several months ago and see who really was mean spirited and arrogant.

My point is I don't think you clinton supporters DESERVE respect, because you certainly had a damn short supply of it to give out to others.

[bigtree]

103. you think you're justified in your actions by pointing to what some individuals did and said here?

and you want to say that they started it, and, that justifies your actions?

YOU are responsible for your own behavior. It doesn't wash to paint all Clinton supporters with the same brush you use for those folks who actually did something as offensive as you describe.

It's sad that you believe all of what you wrote. I don't deserve to be made to feel 'crappy' by you or anyone else here just because you're holding some grudge.

[Lerkfish]

115. sure, its all MY fault (sarcasm), let me give you an analogy

two kids on a playground, the first one continually kicks the other kid in the shins, day after day after day. The kid complains to the teacher, but nothing happens. Then one day, the second kid kicks back.

The first kid whines to the teacher, who lectures the second kid about "taking the high road" and "not holding grudges". Here's the thing, though, its fine to WAIT until the second kid kicks back and THEN start the lectures about unity and taking the high road and all that crap...but it means the first kid SKATES on THEIR behaviour. GET IT?

[bigtree]

120. I've been kicking you in the shins? You mean I actually sought out your thread

and kicked you in it?

Must have been something really interesting in that post. (I really don't believe you've been kicked by me without provocation)

[Lerkfish]

129. referring to clinton supporters in general, and Obama supporters in general

I assumed you would understand that.

all of which does not negate my analogy, simply means you in particular and me in particular might not be exactly the first and second kid in the analogy.

geez.

[carolinayellowdog]

146. I'd ask you not to generalize, too

Your observation of the grief, swarm, lock brigade is right on. But don't generalize from that nasty DU bunch to Clinton supporters as a whole. The ones I know IRL certainly deserve respect and give it to me as an Obama supporter. DU is a bizarre funhouse mirror kind of place full of McCain supporters trying to turn us against one another.

[Lerkfish]

151. valid point. but in a thread full of generalizations, it is almost required to refute them

but still, a valid point. Ok, add "some" clinton supporters to what I said

[BklynChick]

40. mostly everyone I know (and I'm in NY) has really been appalled by Hillary's campaign tactics lately

and that includes the people who voted for her on Super Tuesday and have supported her for a while. I haven't had to had those kind of conversations because people have come to those conclusions already.

[bigtree]

49. most folks I work with and talk to don't have a clue about stuff that passes for truth on the net

. . . and in the media. We highlight the negativity here, along with the purchased press. I don't think most folks are dwelling on all of that. It hasn't shown in the support she's received in this campaign. They are something like 500,000 or so votes apart, out of some 27 million cast. The negative impressions aren't universal. I don't think they've translated very far beyond the keyboards of the partisans.

[EFerrari]

62. "What passes for truth on the net"? You mean, like the comments

about white Americans that HILLARY distanced herself from?

Maybe she should spend less time on line?

The negative impressions have gone as far as the foreign press. Where do they need to go to register with you? Mars?

Good lord. I've never seen so many people try to rationalize the indefensible. It's just shy of frightening.

[bigtree]

80. that broad coalition she spoke of included black voters as well as the white voters

she claimed were reluctant to support Obama. I don't agree with the interpretation of her remarks as some racism. I think they were probably incorrect and definitely clumsy and insensitive. But similar remarks have been made by the Obama campaign regarding Clinton's lack of appeal among black voters. I really think there's a double standard here. But, all of the discussion is shouted down. The accusations about 'apologizing for a racist' pour out. It's virtually to have a fair discussion about race in this campaign without being accused of racism.

And there you are. "I've never seen so many people try to rationalize the indefensible."

You must be god, because if you're not, your opinion is just that. Your opinion.

Anyway, I really don't think it's possible to have a respectful discussion with you, because you've already led with your special brand of ridicule. Good for you.

[EFerrari]

98. "you must be god" Well, no and I never claimed my opinion was anything but.

And speaking of ridicule, you might want to reread your own OP before you criticize me for using ridicule.

[bigtree]

104. but you want to present your view of Clinton as some universal truth

I'd only accept that from God herself.

[EFerrari]

108. The point, bigtree, is that your OP does exactly that.

And my response pretty much matches your tone.

[bigtree]

112. bull

you're playing games . . .

or, you actually believe all of that, which is truly frightening.

[EFerrari]

126. Go through your own post and tally the negative, condescending

descriptors and unowned generalizations, aka, "universal truths". I don't have to "believe" anything. I can read.

It is possible to have respectful discussion in this forum, but it's less so when you lead with your chin.

[Lerkfish]

119. the sheer level of hypocrisy and "holier than thou" hubris that comes from you is appalling

talk about being blinded by your own partisanship.

[bigtree]

121. nice

you're just a bundle of joy

[Epiphany4z]

42. just had breakfast with

a good friend and member of a local dem group I belong to. She like Hillary I Like Obama...we both just want the primary over so we can start slapping McSame around.

When the Primaries started I tilted toward Obama but would have been happy with Hillary. I think the competitive part of us misses one of the main reasons this primary has been so long and hard...we have two really great candidates while the republicans don't even have one.

That said I will Say I dislike Hillary's Campaign style..and I think it has damaged opinions of her.

[Beacool]

43. Hear, hear!!!

DU, thank the Lord, is not the real world. I still wear my Hillary campaign pin (the same one that Bill wears) on my jacket. I will continue to wear it until it gets too warm to need a jacket. I have yet to encounter any hostily form anyone for wearing it. Quite the contrary, the people who have made any mention at all have been to urge Hillary to stay in the race. Then again, I live in NJ and in Hudson County, the most Democratic county in the state.

[beachmom]

45. I don't know any Clinton supporters.

[truedelphi]

79. I know very few myself. But I really envy

You for not knowing any!!

[cbayer]

46. I live a very isolated life

so I don't really run into people who have very strong feelings about one candidate of the other. Most people I know and meet just want one or the other and do not want McCain.

I would not tolerate the kind of behavior I see here in real life. I would not stay in a room with people who ridiculed any other group of people or called each other ugly names.

I am glad that you are talking about this. You have established yourself as a very honest and respectful individual on this board and I don't think anyone can question your credibility. I think we (the civil portion of this site) need to show leadership by example and let the uncivil fight among themselves. I have never felt that I gained anything or changed anyone's mind by trying to have a discussion with one of the haters.

I have noticed that there seems to be an air of reconciliation on the board over the last few days. Some of the positive posts came from the most unlikely sources. It is getting easier to separate the wheat from the chaff. I think most of the haters will be leaving as the fighting calms down.

[jsmirman]

47. I can assure you that I will ask them to justify their position- and have

in fact, it's the anonymity of the internet that lets the Hill bunch run like the chicken***** they are when I ask them to defend their positions with logic instead of empty, vacuous statements. Like on Florida and Michigan. There is NO argument for the position she is taking. Their is NO defense. I win every argument on the subject here, because there is no Hillary case that stands the test of logic.

I find real life to be a great blessing. There- you can't hide from the weakness of your positions.

[DevonRex]

48. Look BT, I have never seen ANYONE here call you a racist.

As a matter of fact, when you posted something like this yesterday, we came to your defense as an individual and made it very clear that we do not think the vast majority of Hillary supporters are racists.

I don't know any Hillary supporters. We voted 2 to 1 for Obama in my state, one with a very small black population I might add.

[bigtree]

58. yeah. I mulled over the responses . . .

you've got to understand. this has become very corrosive, for me, to participate here. I'm really just barely holding on here to support those folks who supported my candidate in this race along with me. I'm still looking for a way to feel comfortable here, for the future.

[RichardRay]

72. BigTree - Please don't bail out on us.

I consider you a paragon of virtue for what a good DU member with whom I don't agree should and can be. If there is one of my fellow supporters of Senator Obama who needs a good smack up along side the head please let me know and I'll do my best to apply the appropriate measure (not that there's much I can do, opprobrium from and old guy from Wyoming doesn't go very far).

[DevonRex]

144. I'll tell you something I've started doing lately that really helps.

I started making a list of all the Hillary supporters who have been so nice in this forum, both to me personally and to Obama supporters as a whole. And those who have been fair in their comments and who have called bullshit when they see it - like in that insane thread the other day about Obama's birth certificate and whether he has dual citizenship (he doesn't). And of course, you're on my list. :)

That list reminds me that there are many more great Hillary supporters and that the nasty ones are few and far between. It's just that the nasty posts hurt and shock, so they're more memorable.

I know it gets a little rough in here. But if you developed your own list of nice Obama supporters it would help keep some perspective, just as my list helps me. I've also started trying to tell Hillary supporters that I appreciate it when I see them say something particularly nice or fair. Because it's so easy to get all wrapped up in the negative and forget to say thank you.

You would be sorely missed if you left. Throughout this process you have posted positive articles and links for both campaigns and it has been greatly appreciated.

[avenger64]

56. It would be a good way to get smacked ...

... at my house.

[AtomicKitten]

57. Really? I was berated in a grocery store by a Clinton supporter for wearing an Obama button.

Yep, right here in San Francisco. I was advised I am a traitor to the women's cause for supporting Obama.

I realize Clinton supporters are getting kinda prickly, but the assertion that they are put upon exclusively by this process is absurd.

[bigtree]

67. I'm sure it happens to both sides. Folks get passionate about politics

and yes, we are a bit prickly. I didn't want to admit it, but I actually care a great deal about Hillary Clinton and her supporters. I wish folks could be more understanding of that (for the bulk of her supporters here, as well).

[AtomicKitten]

93. Well, this process isn't being played out in a vacuum & I think we are all on edge and anxious.

The disappointment Clinton supporters feel now is no different than most of us have felt in past elections. However, it's come to the point where Clinton's personal ambitions are overshadowing the greater good, and the case she is arguing no longer viable. I would venture to guess once she does the right thing and bows out, all will be well with the universe for the most part.

[bigtree]

100. it's only a couple of weeks left

surely our party (and our potential nominees) can withstand a couple of weeks of campaigning.

I've never doubted that she'll 'do the right thing' when the primary process is over. I think all of the hyperventilating for her to exit are as divisive as anything else. We seem to just ignore the wishes of 17 million or so who cast their vote for her when we demand she withdraw before either candidate has achieved the necessary amount of delegates by actual votes cast alone.

[AtomicKitten]

105. Why did all the other candidates have the grace and integrity to withdraw

when they knew it wasn't in the cards for them? Why do you feel that Hillary's supporters are more valuable such that they deserve to be coddled in a way other candidate supporters were not? Did you forget to factor in the hundreds of thousands of votes ginned up for her by Operation Chaos added into that optimistic 17M figure you throw out there?

The larger picture and that of the greater good would be to stop wasting the resources needed down-ballot during this election cycle. The DNC and union coffers are being depleted playing out this sorry affair. McCain is getting a free ride right now, something none of us can afford to give him.

I vehemently disagree that Clinton should be allowed to "play this out." It's over, Hillary lost, and Obama has won fair and square. We have a general election to get on with and every day she stays in in this pointless self-severing endeavor is a plus for McCain.

[bigtree]

107. there are only some 500,000 votes between them. The others didn't even come close to that

500,000 or so out of almost 27 million cast. Historic election. And you want us to ignore that and act as if what she's achieved in this race is the same as the others? I've never seen a candidate who's trailing, this close to the leader at this 'late' date in the primary.

[AtomicKitten]

109. Close only counts in hand grenades and horseshoes.

"Hillary Agonistes: Why won't she concede?"
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/05/13/hillary-agonistes-why-doe_n_101618.html

[bigtree]

114. that should apply to Obama as well.

He hasn't yet achieved the necessary amount of delegates to win the nomination by actual votes cast alone.

[AtomicKitten]

128. SNL Clinton: "I'm a sore loser."

[JimGinPA]

63. Yeah, I Smack Them In The Forehead & Tell Them They Could Have Had A V8

[TahitiNut]

64. Yes.

:shrug:

[EFerrari]

66. "The answer is in the question." -- Thurber. n/t

[greguganus]

68. I've never met anyone in public who would even admit to being a hillary supporter. n/t

[JuniperLea]

69. Well said, bigtree

There's an auto insurance ad running that shows some guy racing ahead and cutting people off... with his cart in the grocery store! The line is something like, you don't behave this way anywhere else, why do it on the road? Parphrasing...

Yep, a lot of silly ovarian and testicular fortitude on display here, and it's getting really foolish. I just don't get how people miss seeing the ugly in themselves. Wish I had a dollar for every time I posted something like: What do you hope to achieve with this harshness? Do you think you are doing your candidate proud with this hate? Don't you think your candidate would like the support of the person you are verbally eviscerating right now come the GE? Etc.

Always happy to see others jump the peace train...

[KAZ]

71. Bigtree, you are one of the best Clinton supporters here...

... and that's among many great supporters. But there are a hand few, who poke and needle constantly, and stir up animus toward all Clinton supporters. Those of us who know your reputation should seldom give you shit, and usually kick and/or REC your wonderful threads.

Notice I said "seldom". :)

[marions ghost]

75. No

I just feel sorry for them.

I found out one of my good friends supported Hillary. I'm reconciled about it because I know that she was biased in favor of the woman candidate. I do understand that but I find it a simplistic way to make a difficult choice. (Well, what used to be a difficult choice, before the race and class baiting & the other ill-conceived scorched earth tactics).

I wouldn't argue with this friend ever about her Hillary support, not because I would be so afraid of losing the friendship, but because I know there would be no point. She probably knows that about me too.
Now if Obama is the nominee and my friend still can't vote for him, I'd think it's an obstacle that might be insurmountable in a friendship. It would make a difference.

I'd rather come to DU and see what people who are not so guarded are thinking. I appreciate the input of the (true) Hillary supporters here, even when they know they're outnumbered. However it's unrealistic to think that there won't be conflict to a certain degree in a forum about THIS primary season. One thing we have in common--we all want to defeat the Bushites. (I think).

[EFerrari]

76. If you are truly trying to find a way to feel comfortable here

not posting OPs that attack posters who disagree with you might be a start.

[truedelphi]

77. I say exactly the same thing, again and again, to friends

about how Hillary is no friend to those of us who have struggled with the voting reform and voting rights issue.

And then I lay out all the palces where she has gone wrong.

As far as strangers, if they are standing on a street corner with a huge sign that reads: "Hillary won WV. She can win the GE!"

I might, depending on my mood, go up and talk to them too.

[Kittycat]

78. While I wouldn't... I will tell you - I don't know anyone that supports Clinton

[sudopod]

81. Not if you are in your home

or just out and about wearing Hillary gear, nor on your own personal blog or website.

However, when you come into a public forum designed with the express purpose of fostering discussion and debate, then you're kind of painting a big target on yourself that says ARGUE WITH ME PLZ K THX.

LOL, internet.

[Upton]

82. I don't know anyone who supports Clinton either

not saying they don't exist here in the NW, but many of us got wise to Hillary long ago.

[BlueCaliDem]

83. Only when they have the gall to berate me. Oh yes, I do and it's happened TWICE.

But being the catty female that I am (and in their eyes, a traitor) I simply tell them I don't give a good godd***n if Hillary's a woman. That's doesn't immunize her from her vote for the IWR nor her outright refusal to apologize for it.

Her arrogance and clear sense of entitlement to the WH turns me off BIG TIME.

[DavidDvorkin]

84. Yes! And if there's a bus nearby, I throw them under it!

And then I laugh! And kneel in the direction of the Obama campaign, wherever it happens to be at the time.

[greguganus]

86. LMAO! n/t

[Phillycat]

87. Okay that made me LOL.

And I'm a Hillary supporter. :rofl:

[marions ghost]

94. DUZY

:rofl:

[RaleighNCDUer]

85. Only if they get up in my face first.

My sister's wife told me how she was disappointed in seeing an Obama sticker on my car, and I said nothing. Disappointment is something that Hillary's supporters need to get used to.

But then nobody has said the kind of racially charged things to my face (except for republicans who wouldn't vote for either of them) that I've seen from some Hillary supporters here.

It seems that Hillary's supporters in the real world are more rational than they are here.

[peacebaby3]

88. If they say they are supporting Clinton now and will vote for McCain in the

GE if she's not the nominee, then yes, I will call them out on their bullshit.

If you could vote against a candidate that is 90% just like your candidate for one who is polar opposite on the most important issues, then you are an idiot.

I recently had a conversation with one such supporter who said that and I asked her why.

She said Obama's family has never shed any blood for this country. I told her his grandfather who played a major role in raising him served in the Navy during WWII. Since Barack is only 46, other than Desert Storm (which lasted 41 days) and the current "war", what would he have served in? I also asked her if it bothered her that the Clintons were against the Viet Nam war and Bill actually avoided the draft? She didn't know about Barack's grandfather (of course) and said that it didn't really matter about Bill Clinton.

Then we got to the truth - she said, I don't trust him. I asked her why. She said because his father was a black muslim so he is really a muslim too. I walked away because I knew it was pointless to argue with her because she was a racist and I'd just as soon she leave the party anyway. We are bringing in tons of new voters and it's time to purge the racist from the party.

[LaurenG]

89. Real life isn't DU though

I was always taught that politics and religion were never meant to be discussed in "polite" company.

I would probably say the same things to "real world" people that I say in here, if I were in a place that politics was being discussed.


edit

[nichomachus]

91. There's a Hillary supporter down the street from me

She's an elderly woman, very active in the local Dems, and has a Hillary sign in her window. I was chatting with her the other day -- avoiding the primary because I've walked into that minefield before -- when she asked me what I thought about Oprah? I thought I misheard. Who? I asked. Oprah, she said. Then, she told me: "I'm never going to watch that goddam Ubangi again because she supported that - - - - -."

I did not berate her. I merely found an excuse to walk away.

[SeaLyons]

97. Yes, a strange bunch indeed!!!

Great post.

Thanks Bigtree.

[JNelson6563]

99. In my real world politics

I have not seen any of the behavior I've seen on the tubes. At our District convention I spoke with one woman who was very, very hateful toward Obama. Thankfully I had told her I was an Endwards supporter and was pretty neutral about the two. Her husband was a bit embarrassed and sort of apologetically explained his wife was a very passionate Clinton supporter. It was a very quiet discussion with just the three of us.

Anyhow, aside from that, nothing. Everyone who has a preference states it but all tell me they have no problem voting either Dem over McCain. Of course we are in Michigan and cannot afford to sit this election out over hurt feelings related to the primary. We are looking to survive.

Julie

[haymakeragain]

101. Don't tell me, some Obama supporter spit on you in an airport.

Please.

[Pisces]

102. I wouldn't yell, but I would definitely say that a lot of racist are supporting her to

someone's face. No problem speaking he truth. I would also say that she has courted that vote with her language.

[endarkenment]

106. DU is no different than any other message board.

Or its now ancient predecessors in usenet etc. We are not 'strangers on the street'. Social interaction on message boards is different, it is both familiar and anonymous at the same time. The insults flow fast and free here and on any other message board that allows any level of flamage.

I'm sure the Obama supporters here are pretty tired of being called cult members. I am. Of course as the Clinton supporters are vastly outnumbered and their candidate has already lost, I can see how they would feel unduly set upon.

Obama supporters happen to be right about demanding support. Despite the fact that the board owners are waiting for some ill-defined level of presumptiveness to occur, Obama really is the presumptive nominee. Clinton is running a pointless zombie campaign. Well not quite pointless, it might serve her well for 2012. It does not serve the interests of the Democratic Party in 2008, not now, and not since she failed to win big in Texas and then Pennsylvania.

[bigtree]

110. demanding support isn't smart at all

Most Americans don't think in concert with those of us who commit ourselves to active participation in the political process. This isn't some exercise where every vote will be based on some solid analysis of positions and intent. I don't believe our candidates are so naive about the different motivations from voters they have to animate with their campaign to get these voters to cast their ballot in their favor.

[endarkenment]

118. You've segued from DU to Most Americans

I was not referring to how Obama supporters should act toward most americans, I was discussing your topic of how we behave on DU, a board dedicated to promoting the Democratic Party. Supporting Clinton's Dead in 2008 But Still Going Campaign (for 2012) is not, in my opinion, in the best interests of the Democratic Party.

I get tired of this nonsense too. Obama wasn't my first choice. He wasn't my second choice. He is our presumptive nominee and it is time to get on board.

[bigtree]

122. If that's so,

shouldn't he be nominated before we demand folks 'get on board'? I think so.

[endarkenment]

124. presumptive nominee - does not mean already nominated.

Once he is actually nominated he will no longer be the presumptive nominee. But you are a smart fellow, you know that. You are just being argumentative. It is what we do here in between insulting each other.

[bigtree]

125. I think we should wait until he's actually nominated to make those 'demands' here.

Voters haven't done that with their actual ballots, so he'll either have to advantage himself of the SDs or Hillary Clinton's delegates. Hence, the wait for the remaining states to vote. Where in the world do we demand that opponents concede before the race is over in a close election? This is a new standard which is wisely being resisted by the Clinton campaign. If folks had their way. we'd have decided this race after Super Tuesday based on polls and pundits, rather than on actual votes cast.

[unc70]

160. Be aware that "Clinton planning for 2012" is a RW talking point

Be careful what you project on others within the party. The talking points typically are being pushed by the RW. Just be aware.

On a related topic, I wonder if the attacks on Edwards by self-described Obama supporters will diminish here at DU.

[endarkenment]

169. Sorry but it seems to be a valid theory that explains her behavior.

And if rightwingers have also noticed that this seems to be what she is up to, then some of them are not totally delusional.

You cannot immunize against this claim just by calling out 'rightwing talking point'.

[unc70]

173. I am not immunizing anyone. Just telling you where it started

So much of what becomes CW around here started as RW talking points. There is usually a grain of truth underlying the claims, but not always and it could be a tiny grain.

I will remind you of this when we are discussing the memes on Obama that are coming.

Remember that the "will say and do anything to win" argument is applied to every Democratic candidate for national office. Think about it as projection.

I'm a Dr. Frank/Wellstone/Edwards Democrat.

[Phillycat]

130. Does it not?

Would it look better in the GE if McCain could point to Obama losing WV and KY in the primary to a candidate who'd already dropped out? Because, make no mistake, he would lose them whether she was in the race or not. Is she not providing political cover for him at this point? As well as assuring all Democratic voters that their voices will be heard, which also helps Obama in the GE, since voters will not feel disenfranchised and will be therefore more likely to go out and vote even if they're not in love with the candidate?

But don't let me get in the way of your Hillary hatred - you seem to relish it.

[endarkenment]

141. I don't hate her at all.

I think her campaign is aimed at 2012 and is in that respect dishonest, destructive, and against our best interests. Either that or she is just stupid and doesn't understand that she has already lost. But I don't hate her.

"make no mistake, he would lose them whether she was in the race or not" - I rather doubt that had Clinton ended her campaign back when she lost 14 states in a row that she would be winning anywhere right now.

Political cover? With cover like that who needs enemies? No, she is doing her best to make Obama unelectable.

[qijackie]

111. Senator Clinton's supporters are targets just as she has been for many years.

I know lots of supporters of both candidates and "discussions" can grow passionate on both sides. But face to face conversations have consequences that anonymous internet conversations do not have....especially since many posts are not even conversations...just quickly typed words that seem to make the posters feel good in some way.

I've been reading this forum for a few months, posting rarely, and I see nothing that tells me there is much to be gained here overall. I stay for now because I get kind of sucked into GD:P as a spectator sport! I do find it pretty funny that so many people on this forum seem to consider themselves as superior to so many others... especially those who rail against the media lies and then embrace them completely if it supports the "Hillary Is Satan" cant. Telling people to eat shit and die because they don't agree with your opinion (and that is all it is) is pretty sad.

Personally, I hope she stays in to the very last second if that is what she wants and can manage to do. If she was truly responsible for even a small percentage of the things her attackers attribute to her, then she would be an extremely powerful woman!!

[Straight Shooter]

113. They call us racists, in the GE they'll slip up and call people on the street racists.

We have another "uniter" seeking to lead us, gawd help us all.

[Stop Cornyn]

116. NOTE TO SELF: Must remember to berate Mother to her face ...

[LSK]

117. ITS FROM BOTH SIDES

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5967548&mesg_id=5967787

[Marrah_G]

127. This thread makes me sad

So many rude posters, who lack self control.

Sorry, Bigtree. Do yourself a favor and put all these nasty people on permanent ignore, even the old timers who have shown their true colors during this primary. If nothing else this thread shows you who is who.

Just focus on the positive people and ignore the jerks. Most of the jerks are cowards, trying to act tough while hiding behind a keyboard. The rest of the jerks are the kind people like you and I avoid like the plague in the real world.

[SaveAmerica]

131. I notice you have no comment upthread for the 2 Hillary supporters who berate an Obama

supporter (you have no friends, you live in your Mom's basement). Yesterday I started a thread by thread breakdown of who is berating who here on DU and had planned to compare it to the proportion of Obama to Hillary supporters but I didn't get very far. I got 3 threads into it and was just sickened. The point of my research was to show that if it seems like there are more things said anti-Hillary, it's in proportion to how many of each supporters there are here. I wish everyone would stop all the hateful posts and turn their energy into registering new voters.

In answer to your question, I have been treated horribly by a Clinton supporter who (I thought) is supposed to love me unconditionally. Without getting into the details she thinks I'm an idiot for wanting to vote for someone because of 'The Speech' (I'd never seen any of his speeches at the time) and I'd rather not go into the other things she said because the way she said it still is seared in my mind. She came at me with a feral anger I'm not used to receiving and it killed me. As for me, I've tried to be peacemaker between Os and Hs in real life and online but I just don't care anymore.

[Hatchling]

133. I've had two separate incidents in real life and they both shocked the hell out of me.

Earlier this year when the race was a lot closer and after Obama has just had a good victory, I was talking about the strengths of the two candidates with a very nice Obama supporter. We were both saying that it would be the best solution if both were on a ticket. A woman across the room began ranting loudly and sneering about how she would never vote for Clinton, even on a dual ticket. I was stunned. She wasn't even in our conversation. I put a stop to it by firmly restating that I hoped they were both on the ticket. The nice Obama supporter melted into the woodwork.

After our Primary here, a close friend sneered nastily at me: "You probably voted for Obama!" simply because a lot of my politics are pretty left. I felt terrible, because I had voted for Hillary and he hadn't even asked me about it to the point where he had to be nasty about it.

I no longer bring up the primaries in public. There used to be some kind of saying about not talking about money, politics or religion. I'm going to adhere to that in real life.

I try not to be too snarky here, but sometimes I'm in a cranky mood and a post hits me the wrong way and I let go.

[walldude]

134. Obama supporters are just as tired as you...

But for some reason they seem to bitch less. I can't tell you how many posts I've seen that start like this:

"Those Obamabot cult members don't know how to do anything but call people names" :rofl:

Although I am an Obama supporter I have stood up for Hillary when some freeperish attack comes along. I have also done many threads on supporting the winner no matter who it is. Something very telling to me though, in those "unity" threads the only time I get called out is by a Hillary supporter. Why is that? Why is it, a thread calling for unity is so offensive to Hillary supporters, yet Obama supporters will rec it right to the front page. Since you feel that Obama supporters are the cause of all the problems in GDP perhaps you can explain why this is.

[mmonk]

137. No.

I only respond somewhat negatively when approached with the muslim thing or connected to terrorists or the Michelle Obama hates America thing and such as that. I do get mad over those things because I'm human.

[knixphan]

139. I usually switch the subject to republicans

When someone wants to get into Hill-vs-Obama with me.

I'll talk about the DLC and NAFTA if they insist on keeping it Clinton-centric...

But I stay off of name-calling, and if the person MUST call Barack names, I just walk.

I have enough grey matter to keep it civil.

[grantcart]

145. k and r any thread by bigtree some habits are too hard to break

[Perry Logan]

147. Of course not. That would take balls.

Clinton-haters won't confront you. They'll just badmouth you to other people when your back is turned.

[VotesForWomen]

150. i've heard people angrily call hillary a bitch. really representin' for their man. not.

[EFerrari]

154. It's so much nicer when you call other DUers unhinged

for objecting to comments your own candidate has apologized for. 'Way to build that broad coalition.

[CaptJasHook]

157. Big Tree, the other night you tried to defend a Obama "Hussein" sign

Then you posted a bullshit sexist sign seen near an Obama camp. Then you deleted it and left a "LOL" as if the shit were funny.

You have contributed to the problem, not held yourself above it.

If you want to call peace. Then okay, let's have some peace here. But don't sound as if you are astounded by the level of rhetoric when you yourself have contributed.

[peace13]

158. You are correct.

BT is content putting hot sauce on the hemorrhoid that is this primary.

[CaptJasHook]

170. I wish to publicly apologize to BigTree

His post of the other day was for the purpose of pointing out some of the preposterous statements made in reference to the WV rally. I mistook his purpose.

[npincus]

159. Hell, no! I LOVE my mama!

:)

[shadowknows69]

161. Yes, yes I do

[MrSlayer]

162. No, I don't know any. But I would.

I don't know anyone who wants or wanted her.

[cliffordu]

163. I openly ridicule everyone

[LTR]

164. Most of the people I know despise Clinton

So I don't know.

I did turn my ex from Clinton to Obama, though.

[Cha]

165. Do hilary supporters berate Obama supporters in public

like they do here?

I know you hilarys always play the victim card but this is too much.

[Dr Fate]

166. I respond to people's OPs & posts as I would in real life.

For the most part-But I tend to jump into the juicier threads. Hell, I thought we all liked it this way, at least to an extent.

I do agree with you that people are nicer in person- I rarely get into these heated debates with Hillary people in real life-everyone is pretty nice to each other...

[Spider Jerusalem]

167. That's a silly comparison.

This is a political discussion forum; it exists SOLELY for that purpose. Anyone who hapens to be here is here because they want to talk politics. The fact that those here may be strangers to one another is irrelevant, because we share a common purpose in choosing to participate in this forum at all. Given that, if you are prepared to advocate for a particular candidate who has been widely perceived to have been engaging in rather ugly and unsavoury campaigning, you should be prepared to defend that advocacy; if you cannot do so, you might wish to reconsider your commitment.

[CaptJasHook]

171. I wish to publicly apologize to BigTree

His post of the other day was for the purpose of pointing out some of the preposterous statements made in reference to the WV rally. I mistook his purpose.

[TheDonkey]

174. I've had a gay clinton supporter lash out at me in Denny's!

of course I just lashed back :toast: