I think Dan Abrams got it exactly right.

[BzaDem]

On Dan's show tonight, Dan said that Obama would likely not pick Clinton to be the VP. But not because it would be bad for the ticket, or it would ruin the brand, or any other reason relating to electability. It would be because many of his supporters just have so much personal hatred towards HRC. In fact, he suggested that even if it was shown that Clinton would dramatically help this ticket, they still would not have her on the ticket because of hatred of her by many Obama supporters (not Obama himself).

I couldn't have put the words better myself. I certainly am not saying this about all Obama supporters (or even all Obama supporters here); there are many here who like Obama without hating Clinton. And I really don't know whether she would help or hurt the ticket. But what disturbs me is that EVEN IF she was certain to help the ticket and bring in more states in the general, there would still be people here that hate her so much that they wouldn't care. They would rather lose with Obama and someone else than win with Obama and Clinton (again, assuming hypothetically that Clinton would be certain to help).

Hopefully, cooler heads will prevail, and Obama can make a VP decision that will be best for him winning in November. And if that choice isn't Clinton (for the reason that she would not help in November), then that's fine. Hopefully it won't be about emotional hatred.

[truedelphi]

1. The thing is, for me it isn't about liking or not liking her

It's about the trust factor.

I think she helped, via Carville, Kerry come to the conclusion that he had to concede in 2004.

I don't trust her - I personally believe she would help Obama lose so she can run again in 2012.

[Lisa0825]

2. I despise her, and I felt that way long before I became an Obama supporter.

If she is on the ticket, I will vote, but I do not know if I could bring myself to do much more. If anyone else (other than Zell or LIEberman) is on the ticket, I will continue donating monthly and knock on doors, make phone calls, etc.

It's not just about emotions. There are damned good reasons to despise her.

[TexasObserver]

3. Obama's supporters are not unique in despising Hillary.

Most people do despise her. She's got a very narrow thread of support in our country, and she's roundly hated by most Americans. It's been that way for a long time.

[BzaDem]

7. I see it differently.

The Republicans have tried to destroy her ever since 92. I think that it has come through in the media, and this has (however indirectly) affected even Democrats to start hating her. Maybe it didn't cause it, but it provides support for the idea that her policies would actually be different than any one elses', that she can't be trusted, etc.

Most people do despise her? If by most, you mean 50.1% or more, and by despise, you mean have any kind of unfavorable opinion, then you are technically right. But it isn't much more than 50.1% of the country that doesn't approve of her (and it isn't much less than 49.9% of the country that approve), and I highly doubt that even most of those who disapprove of her actually *despise* her.

[sfam]

4. I think Obama will choose the best candidate that he can work with that will also help...

get him elected. If that person is Hillary, so be it. His supporters will forgive him. For Abrams to suggest Obama will make a stupid decision based on caving to his supporters, Abrams is saying something rather specific about Obama's fortitude. Suffice to say I disagree with him.

Incidentally, there are many GOOD reasons that make Obama supporters think Hillary would be the wrong choice. Like most shows, Abrams had someone on there giving some of these reasons - Abrams ignored them as usual.

[thoughtcrime1984]

5. It goes beyond November

4-8 years in the WH could be very tenuous if the two can't work well together. Who knows how Bill would fit in as well.

[Samantha]

10. Bill Clinton would consider Obama a mere puppet president

for whom he needed to pull the strings.

Hillary Clinton's political demeanor is part of that in Washington which Obama wants to "change." For him to select her as his Number Two would be the epitome of political hypocrisy. He will not go there.

Sam

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jillan]

14. Without a doubt.

[crankychatter]

8. "emotional hatred?" - that completely ignores rational contempt for horrible behavior

and corruption

get it?

it's a crock of shit.

[AtomicKitten]

9. Obama has a wide bench of Dems to choose from to augment his ticket.

It is my opinion that the way she has run her campaign and her votes on the IWR and Kyl-Lieberman should not be rewarded. Hillary has poisoned the well every chance she gets and the way to heal the party is to just make it stop. Her continued presence in his race will equal just how much of pariah she will be in the party, something she is entirely responsible for.

I find it fascinating that some people are willing to turn a blind eye to the damage she has tried to inflict on Barack and seem genuinely puzzled as to why Barack will not choose her for VP.

[BzaDem]

11. This is exactly what I'm talking about.

You don't want her to win because you don't want her to be personally rewarded. You want to see her punished. Doesn't matter what happens to the country, as long as she is punished.

Instead, Obama could look at it this way. He could reason that his policies are much better than McCain's, and that he should win so he can enact his policies. And if Clinton helps him do that more than other possible choices, then he should pick Clinton, so he can win in November and enact his policies.

In other words, country > reward/punishment.

[AtomicKitten]

13. she ran against him like a Republican in a old school nasty campaign

Again, the fact that that doesn't bother you is really YOUR problem, not mine. To be honest, I'm having a little trouble digesting some Democrats being fine with that.

Barack not only doesn't need her on the ticket as you seem to think, but she would be a DRAG on the ticket. She is the antithesis of his message, and regardless of what Dan thinks, that's the money point. She has a hard ceiling of support with half of Americans long since declaring they would never vote for her. She has driven her own negatives into the ground in her attempt to hamstring Barack.

She's a net negative all the way around PLUS she doesn't deserve it, that latter you betyerass a bonus.

Barack has plenty of talent that can ACTUALLY help him round out the ticket: Webb, Biden, Clark, Edwards, Sebellius, etc., etc.

edited to add more great VP choices

[BzaDem]

16. Whether that bothers anyone or not is irrelevant.

Because the real issue is winning in November. Winning is the way we pick Supreme Court justices, end the war, and enact progressive policies. Everything is about winning. If you have reservations, you just need to ask yourself -- which is better: McCain or not McCain? There is no third option. Staying home benefits McCain over not McCain. Selecting a VP that will help him win less, helps McCain over not McCain. Not donating to Obama/VP helps McCain over not McCain. I understand that some of those options don't sound appealing, but the sooner people realize that in a game theoretic sense, there are only two options, McCain or not McCain, the better Obama (and Democrats in general) will do.

Now if you are arguing that Clinton will be a drag on the ticket, that's certainly debatable. I think she helps bring in a lot of the voters Obama clealy has a problem with at the moment. On the other hand, it might bring out some additional Republicans too. Whatever net effect she has will have to be compared with the net effect of Webb, Richardson, and everyone else being considered. But I hope they actually decide based upon electability, and not on whether something Hillary does "bothers" you. Because basing it off of whether a VP "bothers" you (and not based upon electability) just shows a misunderstanding of how elections work in America.

[AtomicKitten]

19. Your concern about his VP choice is duly noted, but I'm not concerned.

And I know perfectly well the strategic implications of elections having worked in the Democratic Party for the last 35 years.

Barack has been successful in his campaign against old school politics, the very politics the Clintons have demonstrated throughout this campaign in the most amazingly mind-boggling misread of the body politic I can recall over the last few decades.

The good news is that Barack has already demonstrated he knows precisely what he is doing. Having beaten the Clinton machine who very obligingly acted out what he is campaigning against (oy!), I trust Barack to make the right choice for him, the right choice for America, the right choice to bring to fruition the vision he has set forth.

You can continue to try to press her case, but I'm very happy to assure you there is plenty of talent available for Barack to choose from, thank you for your concern.

[eleny]

12. I don't agree with him

I believe that Obama figures Hillary & Bill would overshadow his presidency by overtly trying to be front and center any chance they could. And also that perhaps he couldn't trust her/them. She could prove to be a loose canon doing things her own way instead of marching to the president's tune where they may have a different opinion on how to get things done. She's the fighter whereas he's the negotiator. Very different personal styles.

I can see why Dan is saying this. There's a lot of animosity as we see here at DU. But I think issues of trust are the true reason. That's what worries me more, anyhow. So I'm sticking with my own theory.

Btw, Dan was great spotlighting the Sigelmann issue again tonight. :thumbsup:

[JBoy]

15. Two main drawbacks of Hillary as VP, neither of which is what she did in this campaign:

1. Obama is the candidate of change. Hillary is the status quo.
2. Hillary's negatives are higher than almost anyone other than Bush. Her presence on the ticket would energize Republicans.

[Cha]

17. hilary threw herself under the bus and she will not get

anywhere near an Obama ticket..no matter how much she whines and twists words like her supporters are doing right now.

[Maven]

18. Hatred you can believe in!

:woohoo: