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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 11:15 AM
Original message
The Sebelius Sale
A couple days ago while rebutting some points raised in another OP about why Sebelius should not be the VP pick I qualified my points with the statement that I myself was not yet sold on her being the right choice (the reasons given against were just crappy IMO). Since then I've read, I've pondered... and a sale has been made. She seems made to be Obama's VP choice, and here's how I for one got there:

1. People insisting Obama needs to pick a VP with national security creds are wrong.

We have two primary issues this round. The war, and the economy. Some people are all panicked about going up against McCain on the war because he's a war hero, but those concerns are off base. We have two considerations. First, do people agree with us that the war is a problem? Second, do people agree with our proposed solution?

On the war the answers are yes and yes. The war is a disaster, and we need to get the hell out, and a lot more people agree with that than "the war is a disaster, we need to stay in it indefinitely and it'll turn around somehow" which is what McCain is going to try to push. Obama doesn't need to go all out propping up his national security creds there when most of the country already agrees with his solution to what they agree is a problem. It doesn't matter that McCain is a war hero when people don't like what his proposal on the issue is and aren't likely changing their minds. Obama is going to find it very difficult to lose that debate.

We have the same two considerations on the economy. But we do not have the same two answers. Yes, people agree the economy is in the toilet and spiraling. But presenting a plan that will convince people you can actually do anything at all about that is FAR more difficult than convincing people you can get troops out of Iraq in a timely manner. Yes, we have the gift of McCain also being the "I don't understand the economy" candidate but THAT he can address with his own VP choice or staff decisions. On this issue we don't have the luxury of McCain having committed to a clear course of action that people just flat out do not like, he just doesn't know what the hell to do right now and he's stumbling and bumbling around. If his advisers get their house in order and start coaching him on some solid economic policy he can make inroads here. THAT is where Obama needs to reinforce himself. His VP pick should have Domestic/Economic creds over National Security/Foreign Policy. A governor is definitely a way to go there.

2. People insisting we need a "dream team" Obama/Clinton ticket are also wrong

The main concern here is healing the rift that has been caused by two history making high profile candidates ending up running at the same time. Passions behind each of their support bases are incredibly high, and the longer the race has dragged on the more one competing faction has become the enemy that is trying to take the other's long held dream of seeing "X" in the White House away... when at any other time people on both sides would have been thrilled at the idea of the other candidate in the running.

As much as a superficial look at that situation would suggest just sticking them both on the ticket would be the magical perfect solution for that, it isn't. It's an absolutely horrible idea. Clinton would be a strong candidate. Obama would be a strong candidate. But Obama/Clinton together is a HORRIBLE match.

--Obama is change and reform. Clinton is old school Washington politics. She undermines his message.
--Obama is grassroots ground-up organizing. Clinton is party machinery top down management. Their styles of government are completely incompatible.
--Clinton has been pursuing her kitchen sink strategy for months now against Obama, and she's been handling many of the attacks personally instead of having surrogates do it. There will be NO chemistry there and it will be obvious to the voters. That will have a negative impact.
--MOST importantly, Clinton has negatives that hit above 50%. She's quite possibly the single most nationally polarizing figure in the entire Democratic party. Obama's appeal is based in large part on his potential as a uniter. She kills that. She turns out the Republican base for McCain when he can't get it done himself by handing him the "Clintons back in the White House if Obama wins!!!" rallying cry and she trashes Obama's crossover potential. Republicans are FAR less likely to cross over to vote for Obama/Clinton than for Obama without Clinton.

For those more inclined to the metaphorical... Lasagna is delicious. Chocolate is delicious. You do not therefore slather chocolate all over a lasagna to make it just plain awesome. Blech. I know all about the "pick a VP that plays to your weaknesses" approach and there will be those who argue that all the contrasts between Clinton and Obama are signs she does this, but she does NOT play to Obama's weaknesses, she neutralizes his strengths.

3. The Female Vote.

In that other post I mentioned rebutting, one of the reasons given for rejecting Sebelius was that Obama needed someone to appeal to the "Bubba vote". I disagree, strongly. Anyone not voting for Obama because he's a liberal black guy with Hussein in his name who they don't think they can connect with running against the old white guy war hero isn't going to change their mind because of the identity of the VP, and if they're over 20% of the total voters in more than a few isolated areas of the country I'd be surprised. Women make up over 50% of the voters. In every single state. And presenting them with a female running mate actually adds something specific and clear and concrete to achieve by voting for the ticket above and beyond electing Obama. Namely, putting a woman on a winning presidential ticket for the first time in US history. And that's worth accomplishing, don't think that won't be recognized.

Most VP choices really offer very little. People won't be voting for or against Clark, or Richardson, or Webb, or Strickland... they'll be voting for or against Obama. Putting any of them on the ticket with him only impacts the voters decision making process in an extremely peripheral, mostly in what it'll say to them about Obama's decision making process and approach to building his government. But Obama himself and his own words and actions will always be the dominating factor in that calculation. A qualified female candidate in the VP slot adds a new dimension to the calculation however since beyond the analysis of what the decision says about Obama there is also the additional direct consideration of being able to put a woman in the VP position for the first time ever. That will sway people to whom that is rightly a very important thing.

That doesn't mean you can just pick some random token female of course, that would be a horrible flatly pandering decision to make. Sebelius is very much NOT a token female. Even before this entire conflict between Hillary and Obama exploded she would have been a serious contender for the position. Time named her one of the 5 top governors in the country in 2005. She was one of the people floated as a potential Kerry running mate four years ago. This isn't just about "we need a woman because of Hillary".

4. The Independent Vote

I've said elsewhere Obama needs to play up his "uniter" qualities to the independents, that means no picking anyone perceived as being from the far left side of the party. Picking a governor from the reddest of red states can help him out there. Regardless of her actual positions and policy record it will be hard to convince the average voter that the governor of Kansas is some effete liberal who is out of touch with people on the other side of the isle. It's freaking Kansas for cripes sake. If she doesn't have across-the-isle appeal she's not elected, she won re-election in 2006 as a Democratic Governor by over 15 points in a state where 50% of the voters were registered Republicans and 27% were Democrats. THAT is crossover appeal. And putting someone from that geographic region on the ticket helps the perception that his administration won't just be governing the east and west coast for the next eight years which also helps with the big tent perception and probably gives him a little boost all across the Midwest where he's already threatening McCain's positions. Will she turn Kansas itself? No, but don't really care. And as for losing her as a governor, she's looking at hitting her term limit in 2010. If we don't find somewhere for her to go we're losing her anyway.



Those are the big factors for me. Will there be negatives? Every pick has negatives, find me a politician without baggage and I'll demand they be medically examined to prove they're human but Sebelius is looking like a VERY good match for Obama. And what would absolutely seal the deal? If Clinton came out emphatically for the idea herself once the nomination process is settled. If she cares about the party, and Obama expresses a desire for Sebelius on the ticket, then she will. That will defuse the whole "He's Snubbing Hillary!" idiocy that some are inevitably going to try to pull if Obama goes this route.

Final point: After the Edwards endorsement yesterday I'm seeing a lot of brand new "dream ticket" talk there. I'm not seeing it. First, because he's already done the running mate thing once and doing it again the very next election is going to inevitably draw associations between this ticked and one that lost. Not Edward's fault, but it'll happen. Second, because although I think he'd be a FAR better match than Clinton, and would almost certainly be a net positive despite the first point, I don't think he can match all the advantages Sebelius brings to the mix. Third... Attorney General Edwards.

My $0.02
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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
1. Awesome OP. Very well thought out and I agree 100%
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Labors of Hercules Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. Absolutely fantastic! K&R.
(incidently, my gut tells me Sebelius is already the one).
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mystieus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
2. There are the hints that Sebelius could very well be our next VP.
I, for one, am totally for it. Sebelius would be a great choice. She seems so level-headed, oozes common sense and her seniority and experience as a governor would be the perfect complement Barack's leadership.
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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. I didn't know much about her, and did some Googling,
and what I read about her on Wikipedia (I know, I know) made her seem like a perfect match for Obama. The issues she took a stand on, and how she took that stand, seem to mesh perfectly with Obama.
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Stop Cornyn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #8
24. That's the problem. You don't want a match, you want a compliment.
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RichGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #2
15. Oh please....
Sebellius has the excitement of a wet dish rag. Yes, she's a nice lady...sign her up for sunday school teacher, but not VP. Remember, VP is the person who takes over if something happens to the pres. I'm not confident about Obama in the first place, but choosing her would be a sure loss, of McGovern proportions.

As much as I would love to see a woman on the ticket. It can't be a light weight woman and unfortunately there aren't too many with Hillary's strength and creds. If he doesn't put Hillary on the ticket, it should be a strong man, Webb, Biden, Clark.
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mystieus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. I think that Sebelius, with her executive branch experience, may make a better choice.
She is the best choice for the VP. No doubt.
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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. "Light weight" woman?
Ranked as one of the top 5 governors in the country 3 years ago. Carried re-election, as a Democrat, a state where registered Republicans outnumber Democrats two to one and light weights simply don't do that. Top governors tend to make presidential candidates of their own... how exactly does she come in as a "light weight"?

As for the "excitement" factor, if there has ever been a candidate who didn't need any help there guess who it is?
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
3. Regarding #3
Only the same fools who didn't think twice about the sexist trashing of the first viable female presidential candidate, who regularly shows up as one of the most admired people and women in America, would imagine the same women who were pissed off about that wouldn't see such a move as equally, if not more, insulting.
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Labors of Hercules Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. What? How does THAT make sense?
Why would any woman object to Sebelius being the first woman Vice President and "first potential future woman President" rather than Hillary who LOST the damn nomination?

Not only is Sebelius a MUCH BETTER candidate for VP than Hillary, but she's the best choice when compared to most anyone else as well (save maybe Al Gore, but he'd never do it).

Jesus some people just can't help but be narrow.
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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. Absurd.
Only the people who are absolutely fixated on Hillary as the only acceptable choice no matter what the facts say would twist around choosing a highly qualified woman who complements Obama perfectly as a running mate and who has been under consideration for that position in plenty of different quarters since LONG before the Hillary/Obama warfare broke out... and turn it into an insult.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
4. Yes, well thought out and I concur -100%
:thumbsup:
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
6. On the national security issue Obama can solve that by announcing his
candidates for DOD State and Nat Sec Advisor
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
7. An excellent $0.02
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
9. No he can't have her
We need her HERE in Kansas. The rethugs will go berserk if she leaves.
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Labors of Hercules Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. I though Mark Parkinson was an excellent Lt.. Governor...
and would make an excellent governor were Kathleen to accept the VP nod... am I wrong?? :shrug:
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. He's too green
He was also a republican until recently. I like him but I don't think our state party is ready to give up our governor. But this is just my opinion.

We have made such great gains statewide in the last couple years. But we still have a ways to go. I hate to see Sebelius not here to lead us.
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crimsonblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
10. I agree with your logic...
but I think Sebelius would be better suited to running for Brownback's open seat in 2010 (he's said he won't seek reelection). As a native Kansan, this makes the most sense to me because that is where she can do the most good for the state of Kansas.
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Mabus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #10
20. Same here
I really like Sebelius and am hoping that she'll stay in office and run for the Senate in 2010. She's what Kansas needs now and in the near future. I don't want to lose her.
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WA98296 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
14. I see it as pandering to women, a clumsy apology for not selecting Clinton.
Bad move, makes him look weak. Besides that, how many really want to get behind a DLC darling?
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Bullet1987 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. Pandering to women would be nominating a woman that's not qualified
Kathleen Sebelius is MORE than qualified.
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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. Perfect point.
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thoughtcrime1984 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #14
28. Why is she a DLC darling? Why do you look at her like an apology?
She has done a great job in Kansas as Governor and has House experience and other experience under her belt. She has had no choice but to work with many Republicans in a red state, and has accomplished much in education and eliminating a 1B+ debt. I think she is a BETTER choice than HRC. For all the talk about how a VP might bring in this vote or that vote, or a certain state, it seems like in the end, they just don't have much effect on the votes, except possibly negatively. The top of the ticket is what people are voting for, the VP is someone, especially in this instance, that we might have to count to lead our country at some point. Kathleen Sebelius is a leader, no doubt about it, her ability to "reach across the aisle" probably endears her to Obama, and I don't doubt he could trust her to carry on for him if need be. She is not a token woman, she is one of those that you hear about that could be President, along with Janet Napolitano, who I also admire. Either one would be an outstanding choice.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #14
31. What? You think HRC is *entitled* to be asked to be VP?!? That's just WRONG.
Like the guy who kills his parents and begs the court for mercy ... because he's an orphan. :puke: :thumbsdown:
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Bullet1987 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
17. Great post...I like Sebelius a lot too!!!
Edited on Thu May-15-08 12:34 PM by Bullet1987
I think she's gaining some support on DU too!
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
18. I agree with all your reasoning 100%, but like Janet Napolitano even better
Don't get the idea that I'm running down Kathleen Sebelius, I admire her tremendously. I just think Janet Napolitano brings the same strengths to the ticket but in even greater quantities - super-strong fiscal credentials, 2-1 margin of victory at re-election, tough on border jumpers but serious about reforming immigration, strong on domestic security, extremely down to earth and easy for voters to connect with. And she puts Arizona in play.
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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #18
29. I think Sebelius would help tremendously in the Midwest.
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mystieus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #29
42. Yes she will.
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Stop Cornyn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
23. But who votes for Obama-Sebelius that doesn't vote for Obama-Anyone and how many electoral votes do
we get from having her on the ticket?

Obama-Warner or Obama-Webb or Obama-Kaine all help in Virginia.

Obama-Nelson helps in Florida.

Obama-McCaskill helps in Missouri.

Obama-Strickland helps in Ohio.

Obama-Richardson helps in New Mexico.

Obama-Edwards (who I supported for president but I'd rather see as AG) helps in North Carolina.

Obama-Napolitano really takes the fight to McCain's turf in Arizona (and would give the easily-tired elderly candidate an excuse to campaign from home a lot)

Obama-Bayh (yuck) helps in Indiana.

Obama-Nunn (double yuck) helps in Georgia (which is closer to becoming a swing state than many realize).



Sebelius is like Schweitzer -- an excellent Democrat who I'd like to see as president someday, but not someone who gets us many votes that Obama doesn't already have a good grip on or who tips any electoral votes our way.
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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #23
30. I think looking at isolated one state effects is a mistake.
Who do I think this sways into voting Obama that other VP choices don't? A portion of the independents and women nationwide, for the reasons I outlined... independents because selecting from a pure deep red state far outside any traditional Democratic stronghold that everyone knows he won't win enhances the image that Obama will govern with a larger tent and not just ignore "Red America" once in office (which will help in plenty of midwest states, some of which he does have a shot at turning), women because putting a highly qualified female candidate on a winning presidential ticket and setting that precedent for future contests is just flat out worth seeing happen. Thus changing the margins in EVERY state.

No, she's not going to turn Kansas blue... but that doesn't worry me one little bit.
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Stop Cornyn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #30
40. I wasn't just looking at the isolated state, but using that as shorthand for the sorts of electoral
vote drawing that I'd want in a VP candidate. For example, Webb and Richardson appeal to certain demographic groups where Hillary has done better than Obama, and I only listed their geographical advantages, but I didn't mean to imply that those were their only advantages.

I agree that Sebelius appeals to independents and women nationwide, but I don't see how she does so in a way that Napolitano or McCaskill don't do equally well. I am 100% on board with getting a female VP (and if we don't, McSame would be a fool not to which might hurt us). Among woman VP candidates under popular consideration, I'd rank Sebelius just behind Napolitano and McCaskill but just ahead of Hillary. If I have a short list of 10 VP candidates, Sebelius definitely makes the list, but when I narrow it down to the top two or three, I don't think she makes that cut.
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Bullet1987 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #23
37. I doubt Webb helps much in Virginia at all. He has little record to speak
of and just got there recently and hasn't proven himself yet. You can't compare that at all to a two-time Govenor of a red state.
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Stop Cornyn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. Among Warner, Webb, and Kaine. I think Warner's brings the most to the table, Kaine next, Webb third
I like Webb in the Senate; plus, I think Webb (like Clark) would be a great VP candidate if I thought that the war was going to be the number 1 issue, but since I think the economy will be the number 1 issue, I'd put Webb on a short list for consideration, but I don't think he's make the final cut down to the top two or three VP candidates.
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LisaM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
25. I think it's insulting to women to throw out another woman as VP as a sop.
Also, I saw her give the response to the SOTU and I was definitely not impressed. She said something along the lines of her response not being given as a Democrat! What? Wasn't that exactly what she was doing there? To give the DEMOCRATIC response?
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Insulting? She has a good record of accomplishments.
Thinking Hillary represents the female sex and no one else would appear more insulting.
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Dark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
32. It has to be a governor. Obama needs someone with executive experience. n/t
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Unsane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
34. It won't be Sebelius. Book it. Obama needs a VP who can pull a state; like LBJ pulled in TX
KS isn't going Dem.

It's going to be Strickland, Ritter, Schweitzer, or some other similar candidate.
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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. No, he doesn't. He needs a VP who can swing the nation.
Sebelius on the ticket has the potential to alter margins in all fifty states through appeal to independents and women, for the reasons already outlined. This focus on whether or not a VP pick can maybe carry this or that one single isolated state with their presence is failing to see the forest for the trees. I've thought it in previous years and I think it this year. It's myopic.
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npincus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
35. Do you think America can handle THAT much change?

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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. Yes, actually I do.
The electorate has spent the last several months getting quite used to the idea of either an African American or a woman running, it's not going to go shocking many of them now if we stick them both on the ticket at the same time. Will it be a problem for some, such as the stereotypical demographic depicted in your pic there? Yes. But frankly most of that demographic isn't voting for either one by themselves in any case so combining them isn't hurting you a whole lot more.
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Bullet1987 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. They look like the last types of folks that would be voting for Obama anyway
They look like the types to buy the "Obama=Monkey" shirts that guy is selling in Georgia.
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