I was a Deaniac in 2004, and I can tell you, it is PAINFUL at the end.

[democrattotheend]

When the media played the scream over and over and his support collapsed between Iowa and New Hampshire I was angry. As the contests went on and he couldn't win a primary despite having been ahead in the polls for months, it was disheartening, and I refused to accept that it was over until he actually dropped out.

I thought Dean got a raw shake from the media and from the party establishment and I was bitter. I went through a phase where I swore I hated Kerry and would never vote for him. I was mad and defiant and it took me a while to get over it. In the end, I not only voted for Kerry but gave up several weekends volunteering for him, and I wouldn't even say I had to hold my nose to do it (though I wasn't as enthusiastic as I had been about Dean, or am now about Obama). I am just really glad I had stopped posting at DU by that point, so I did not have to deal with Kerry's supporters trashing my candidate and gloating that it was over before he dropped out, as it would have inevitably hardened me toward Kerry even more than I already was.

My point is, Obama supporters need to recognize that this is painful for Clinton's supporters at DU and in real life. Many of them have volunteered on her campaign or given money and they are just not ready to give up until she does, and we should respect that. Sure, I think there are some who are threatening not to vote for Obama in order to scare the supers into thinking he is unelectable, but the vast majority of her supporters here and in the real world are genuinely upset and feel that she has been treated unfairly by the media and the party establishment, and while I disagree, I recognize that I would probably see things differently if I were a Clinton supporter, as candidate preferences inevitably color the way we view things.

As an Obama supporter, I have been really upset by threads like <http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5986258|this one>, which do nothing but insult Clinton supporters and rub salt in an open wound. I am not saying Clinton is above criticism, and if she attacks Obama I'll be all over her for it. But I am sickened by the degree of hatred that Obama supporters continue to display despite how close we are to winning and being in a position where we need to unify the party.

Is it stupid to judge a candidate based on his or her supporters on a message board? Absolutely. But it's inevitable. I've gotten so mad by things Clinton supporters on DU have said that I have threatened not to vote for her a few times, even though I can't imagine I would actually go through with not voting for her in the voting booth. But obnoxious Clinton supporters here would have made me less inclined to want to be a part of her campaign if she got the nomination, and I imagine many of us have made her supporters less inclined to want to volunteer for Obama.

The best thing we can do for Obama and for the party right now is to chill out, be grateful that it's almost over, give Clinton supporters time and space to come around, and work our asses off offline to register new voters and help Obama win the remaining primaries. Dwelling on Clinton's decision to stay in the race for a few more weeks and attacking her and her supporters accomplishes nothing, and it flies in the face of everything our candidate stands for.

[Writer]

1. Wow. How incredibly rational and level-headed.

Stop it! Your reasonableness is killing me!

[NotThisTime]

2. Agree with your post... everybody needs to lay off on both sides

We should be up in arms today over Shrub and McLame's comments this morning

[Kolesar]

3. rsmith6621 might be a troll ... eom

[Larkspur]

4. As a Dean-ocrat myself, I have no sympathy for Clinton supporters

It was Bill Clinton who told us in 2003 to "fall in line" by the nominee in the General election. It's about time the Clintons and their supporters practice what they preach.

[democrattotheend]

9. Hopefully most of them will. But insulting Clinton and her supporters won't help.

I remain bitter to this day about the way Dean was treated, and I think a lot of the attempt to marginalize him came from Clinton allies within the party. At this time 4 years ago, I was adamant that I would not vote for Kerry. But I came around by the fall, and I hope most of Clinton's supporters do as well. And if they don't, let it be because they genuinely disagree with Obama on policy. Don't give them any reason not to fall in line.

[Larkspur]

19. I promised in 2004 to vote for the Dem nominee but

I refused to donate my time and spare $ to Kerry's campaign. I'm glad that I didn't donate to his campaign since he had $12 million left over.

I'm basically giving the Clinton supporters the same treatment a lot of us Dean supporters got in 2003-4.

[Tampa Rob]

5. We're going to need "all hands on deck" in November...

....regardless of primary favorite. If Clinton somehow pulls a serious miracle, I'm there for her. If, as I expect, Obama (my man!) wins, I'm there for him.

We simply CANNOT afford another 4 years of this type of government. And whatever Dem is there on the ballot is my choice.

TR

[Texas Hill Country]

6. thank you, great post... i would also like to point out that the Obama supporters have even driven

the Clintons supporters out of the established netroots institutions with the hatred and insults, forcing many of us to create parallel institutions... ie Kos/Confluence

That is how bad it has gotten...

The intolerance has been shocking.

[Dr Fate]

10. Dont you mean "nutroots"? I thought the average DLC supporter hated the "nutroots"

Especially after Lamont.

But now you want us all to be one big happy family? I'm all for it, but things certainly started out on the wrong foot.

So now those out-of-touch "keyboard warriors" are being mean to the same faction who marginalized & trashed them as "the nut roots" ever since the Dean campaign? Suprise, suprise.

[sui generis]

21. more than shocking, to ask for reconciliation is difficult

at this stage in some circles.

I think that Obama has demonstrated a willingness to fling poop as easily as any other candidate, so it's not about who takes the first, next or last swing. It's about the issues and how the candidates plan to differentiate themselves, how they plan to prioritize their leadership initiatives if elected and whether or not we personally agree to accept their claim of experience or expertise or even credibility in those plans.

My understanding of human nature tells me unshakably that if there were real issues between the two candidates, we would be talking about the particulars of those issues, not the characteristics of each candidate's supporters.

Why is discussion of those those particulars mostly absent on DU? I want to know in the scope of foreign policy, which candidate has the better vision and the better plan. I want to to know in scope of domestic health care, poverty and inflation, which candidate is going to risk a piece on the chessboard to keep the credit card and mortgage industry from figuratively raping people in the future. Which candidate is going to recognize military exemplary service in members who happen to love someone of the same gender instead of the opposite gender?

Which candidate is going to work toward preventative healthcare with real details, not just lip service about hope. Which candidate is going to take care of our senior population BEFORE they're homeless and past hope with chronic illness? Which candidate is going to make sure the poorest families in America have access to food and medicine, that our jails have real criminals in them and not just parking ticket violaters, that our children have the opportunity to be educated in a world where one needs a degree in computer science as a hard and fast requirement for a job as a data entry clerk these days.

Which candidate is going to seek to rebalance our manufacturing and service sectors by removing incentives to American companies to screw Americans, and which candidate is going to make sure we're doing more than trading pollution credits to try to resolve environment degradation and energy and transportation availability?

Those are the real issues. Anybody who can't get past playing touchy feely about everybody else's supporters doesn't have a clue about this race or real politics in general.

This isn't a highschool popularity contest with platforms and planks and big meaningless rhetorical foofy speeches.

It's a presidential race with national issues.

[Texas Hill Country]

28. exactly, and one thing I found really interesting was when I got an Obama fundraising letter...

and they were really long letters, one from Obama and another note in there from a Pastor (no, not Wright) but I dont remember his name...

they were very convincing, talking about hope, and change, and now and not this time... very inspirational and motivating and empowering... almost EST like in nature.

And yet, in the two pages front and back, not one issue was mentioned...

very odd, dont you think?

[democrattotheend]

30. They have a variety of mailers and literature.

Some are more issue oriented, others are more character-based, largely because there were not a whole lot of huge policy rifts between Clinton and Obama. And most voters don't take the time to read detailed policy positions, sadly. I encourage you to check out the policy statements on his website. I'm sure he'll send more policy-related pieces once he's running against John McCain, with whom he has substantial policy differences.

[Texas Hill Country]

35. perhaps, and i am not saying they dont exist, only that the letter I got didnt contain any, and he

has a reputation for not talking about issues...

and the letter reiterated that for me.

[democrattotheend]

36. Like I said, you'll hear a lot more about issues in the general

The bottom line was, there really were not too many substantive major issue differences between Clinton and Obama.

[Texas Hill Country]

40. actually, i had some pretty serious issue probs with Obama... like his inadequate HC proposal, but

to be fair, Hillary's is barely ok imo.

[democrattotheend]

41. I am not satisfied with either plan

I tend to favor single payer, although I admit I have mixed feelings now that I have good insurance through work that I'd be loathe to give up.

[Texas Hill Country]

43. i favor single payer too, but Hillary's plan is far closer....

[Dr Fate]

7. Imagine if Dean had stayed in and started agreeing with the Swiftboat vets.

There are a lot of parrallels to the Dean campaign- but Dean knew when to bow out and when to rally behind the leader.

To me, I find it ironic that the Deaniac and early "netroots" types are the ones who were painted as potentially disloyal as to party-line voting, but its really the Hillary/Liberman wing that fits that bill...

I couldnt imagine Dean going as negative or carrying things as far as this.

Should Hillary give Obama the same courtesy that Dean gave Kerry, or theat Tsongas gave Bill Clinton? A matter of opinion but I think she should.

[democrattotheend]

12. I hope she does, and suspect that she will, once she drops out.

But I think the best thing we can do for Obama right now is respect her and her supporters and let the rest of the primaries play out so he can capture this nomination without any question of legitimacy. At the end of the day, he will have more delegates even if you include Florida and Michigan, and most likely enough votes to maintain the lead in the popular vote even with counting Florida and giving him the Michigan uncommitteds (which seems fully legit now that three of the four candidates who took their names off the ballot have endorsed him). Nobody will be able to say that he hasn't earned it or that he won unfairly, and that is the best possible outcome if he hopes to unite the party.

[Dr Fate]

17. I agree-but it takes two to tango.

Its going to be nothing but "he started it" and "Mom-she hit me first" until she does the right thing like Dean did.

In other words, Obama people are not going to humor Hillary supporters who are still in attack mode, & vice versa.

We can all try our best though.

[democrattotheend]

38. Can't we be classy and start the dance?

Don't wait for them to take the high road...let's start doing it first. Just ignore their hit pieces on Obama.

[Dr Fate]

39. You are right. I'll keep trying.

Its just diffiult not to respond to posts that are false, misleading or otherwise tend to help McCain.

[nomaco-10]

16. I got tombstoned for a few days.....

because I made fun of joe in 2004. My proudest du moment.

[karynnj]

29. I think the closeness of it and the unique high profile status of the Clintons made it nastier

There has been a protracted period of almost four months when HRC and WJC, the two Democrats who still have the most access to media - though Obama is changing that, have been using every tactic they can think of to try to win. Consider that only since around 1990 have we been in this 24 hour newscycle environment. In that time period, most Democratic nominees have been determined very early.

Kerry was the frontrunner from the moment the first vote was cast. By a month later, he polled far ahead of everyone else and won the vast majority of primaries and caucuses. Dean in February, when his campaign was imploding, hit Kerry very very hard and sometimes unfair - but without going into character assassination. But, few saw it - there was flack in the debates, that Kerry's handled well, and in the media - but it never had the same high profile as the Clintons and it lasted only about a month or less - because the race was not close. Dean went on to be a great surrogate.

In 2000, Bradley and Gore exchanged some sharp charges, but that was over even faster than 2004. There was a sitting President in 1996. 1992 was not the same media and the strongest opponents were out much quicker than this year. At this point Clinton hadn't mathematically clinched it, but no one though Jerry Brown would get it.

[Dr Fate]

31. It could have been just as close if Dean had stayed in. His supporters would have stayed with him.

Dean could have stayed in and gone mega-negative & mega-personal against Kerry- he could have had surrogates bring in the SBV crap early and cast a lot of doubt against Kerry, thus keeping the race up for several more weeks...

Of course, Dean is a very loyal DEM, so it didnt happen that way.

Just my opinion- but the major difference between the Dean race & the Hillary race boils down to the character of the 2 candidates...

[redqueen]

44. "he could have had surrogates bring in the SBV crap early"

Can you imagine how well that would have gone over here?

He'd never have ended up as the DNC chair, I'll bet.

[Dr Fate]

45. Of course Dean would have never dreamed of such a thing.

To compare the 2 is to contrast them.

[karynnj]

49. His followers were loyal, but there were not enough of them

Here is a link to the primary results.
http://www.rhodescook.com/primary.analysis.html

As you can see, after Wisconsin Kerry had won 16 primaries, Dean none, Edwards and Clark each 1. kerry was easily getting twice as many votes in most states as either Dean or Edwards. Look at the second chart that has delegates - as you can see Kerry was very far ahead by the point where Dean dropped out after Wisconsin. He had no money and his delegate count was really low. In fairness to HRC a 2008 set of charts like this wouldn't look so lopsided. Dean ended up with only 114 delegates. Edwards who benefited by being the only top tier alternative only got 477 delegates. (Note this was out of 2719 total delegates which I think is less than this year.)

[democrattotheend]

50. Interesting. I wonder why there were more delegates last time.

Even if you include Michigan and Florida this time, it only adds up to 2210. And we have more Democratic elected officials this time around than we did in 2004.

Maybe it has to do with the DNC formula that rewarded states that went later in the process with more delegates.

Was 2719 the total last time, or the amount needed for a majority?

[karynnj]

51. It's the other way around

Here is 2008:
"On February 2, 2007, the Democratic Party published 'Call for the 2008 Democratic National Convention'<4>, the rules governing the convention. There will be 3,253 pledged delegates, those committed to vote for a particular candidate, selected by primary voters and caucus participants. There will be about 795 unpledged delegates, those free to vote for any candidate, colloquially known as superdelegates, for a total of about 4,048 delegates, requiring 2,024.5 votes to constitute a majority of the convention. (This figure includes zero pledged delegates for Michigan and Florida, which would have 313 pledged delegates and about 54 unpledged delegates, so if pledged delegates from those states are seated before the first ballot, the total number of delegates to achieve a majority will be greater than 2,025. The 54 superdelegates from Florida and Michigan have been counted in the 4048 total.<5>) The superdelegates consist of DNC members, Democratic Congress members and Governors, and other prominent Democrats.<6> The final number of superdelegates will not be known until the convention. <7>"

The pledged delegates are allocated among the states according to two main criteria: 1) proportion of votes each state gave the candidate in the last three Presidential elections; and 2) percentage of votes each state has in the Electoral College. Fixed numbers of delegates are allocated for Puerto Rico, American Samoa, Guam, the U.S. Virgin Islands, and Democrats Abroad. Under the party's Delegate Selection Rules for the 2008 Democratic National Convention<8>, delegates are awarded via proportional representation with a minimum threshold of 15% of votes in a state or congressional district to receive delegates. The delegate population must reflect the state's ethnic distribution; and at least 50% of the delegates must be women. (This is from wikipedia)

So it is now 3,253 pledged delegates (Note: MI and FL were thrown out) versus 2719 delegates last time.

[Cha]

53. Dean is a loyal Dem and he genuinely

cares about our country much more than himself and he doesn't have any agendas other than helping our Nation. Big Dif.

Thanks for your perspective on this, Fate~

[redqueen]

42. Yup. Sort of a big difference there.

I don't think Hillary has done her supporters any favors with her desperate tactics.

[On the Road]

8. I Went Through the Same Things

and it took me a few months to come over to Kerry. Reason enough to lay off the Hillary-bashing.

[Deep13]

11. I have to pick between two candidates I don't believe in.

I'm still not convinced who is worse.

[democrattotheend]

13. You mean between McCain and Obama?

Sorry, but if you care about policy, that should be an easy choice if you are for Clinton. You may not like Obama personally but his policies are a lot closer to Clinton's than McCain's are, and she herself said that her voters would be making a grave mistake if they don't vote for Obama if he is the nominee.

[cali]

15. If you think Obama is as bad or worse than McCain, you're out of touch

with reality and everything that the dem platform stands for. Period.

[Deep13]

20. I didn't say I wasn't aware of the arguments.

At least for once the R candidate is not being supported by throngs of what can only be described as worshippers. I am extremely apprehensive by the prospect of putting that particular constituency within reach of the driver's seat. It has injected an irrationality that I did not believe D candidates were capable of inspiring.

I don't care what the platform says. That is just an advertising tool anyway.

I disagree with McCain. Obama just scares me.

[cali]

24. Bill Clinton was supported by throngs of what can only be called worshippers

Did you vote for him? Most Obama supporters do not worship him, and go to HillaryForum.Com if you really want to see blind worship. Or Hillaryis44, or any number of Clinton sites. Both Obama and Clinton have idiot supporters. So the fuck what? If Obama scares you, you're simply not rational. It's that simple. And if you prefer McCain, you certainly don't belong on any dem forum anywhere. Ridiculous. Hillary's hawklike record and intemperate words, her lies and race baiting didn't exactly please me, but no way would I not have voted for her given the choice between her and McCain.

[democrattotheend]

25. Those sites are just plain scary

Are the people who post there really Democrats? They sound like right wing nutjobs to me.

[Forkboy]

37. Hey, I have to do that every damn election. Buck up.

[democrattotheend]

48. I had to do it in 2004, my first presidential election

And my grandparents had to do it in every election since 1972.

I just can't believe I am actually going to get to vote for the candidate I wanted this time.

[cali]

14. I was too and

as a Vermonter who was familiar with Dean long before most of the country, my roots went deep. Yet, the moment he lost Iowa, I dusted myself off and committed myself to Kerry. And though I agree that threads like the one you linked to are totally unneccessary, I also think the threats and demands from some Hillary supporters are too. As are the victim posts. People need to grow up.

[Erin Elizabeth]

23. Amen to all of that!

[Zynx]

18. I remember that too. It wasn't pleasant.

[Erin Elizabeth]

22. I've said this very thing.

The night of the Iowa primary in 2004, I cried my eyes out when Dean lost. I was stunned. I couldn't believe it. And I was SO pissed off for so long.

I needed some time and space before I could come around to Kerry, definitely. By the convention, I was ok, and then when I watched the convention, I got even more on board.

But I do think it's very painful. And like I just said on another thread, picking at a scab only makes it take longer to heal. Both sides are picking at it, lest anyone think I'm talking about just one side or the other. And not EVERY person on both sides is picking at it, but enough are that it's going to take longer to heal.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

26. Here, here.

Great advice.

[PoliticalAmazon]

27. ITA. It does no good to try to force the issue, to use threats, or to....

insult them for not getting on the bus RIGHT NOW! RIGHT GODDAMNED NOW!

It's Obama's job wo win them over, and we don't make it easier for him by further alienating the Hillary supporters.

I acknowledge that we need HIllary supporters to win in November, but not all will come over, and for the ones who continue to use anger-baiting and insult Obama supporters, I'm not going to be a doormat for anyone. I will be patient to a large degree, but in general, people who reach out to smack me draw back a bloody stump.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

32. I moved to Kerry immediately.

Chimp or Kerry?

The chasm between the two choices was deep and wide.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[madfloridian]

34. Not as long as a group of hers says Dean is allowing sexism...

and not as long as they keep on about FL and MI.

[BlooInBloo]

47. And Ferraro, and.. and... and...

[BlooInBloo]

46. Both sides not giving up should be respected.

[Rene]

52. I can just sea dean chortling with glee at the turn of events in this primary

he(dnc) is getting revenge on the clintons(dlc) what a miserable little man.

[democrattotheend]

55. Well, they did treat him like shit in 2004

So I wouldn't blame him if he is secretly rooting for Obama. Obama also inherited a lot of his grassroots machine and was one of the original Dean Dozen when he was running for Senate. So yeah, I have no doubt who he voted for on March 4.

[rabidgeorge]

54. the media loathed Dean. Does it remind you of someone? n/t