Angry Clinton Backers Vow to Undermine Obama

[marmar]

With Dems like these..... :argh:


from The Politico:



May 15, 2008
Categories: Hillary Clinton

Clinton backer backlash


My colleague Beth Frerking reports on something we're likely to hear a lot more about in coming days: Grumblings from the almost-half of the party, disproportionately women, whose candidate is losing.

An Ohio-based group of Democratic Hillary Clinton supporters say they’ll work actively against Sen. Barack Obama if he becomes the nominee, arguing that Clinton has been the subject of “intense sexism” by party leaders and the media.

Led by Boomer-aged women, the group, Clinton Supporters Count Too, is holding a press conference in Columbus at noon to release this statement.

Organizers Cynthia Ruccia, 55, and Jamie Dixey, 57, both from the Columbus area, say they’re coordinating women, men, minorities, union members and others in Ohio, Pennsylvania, Florida and Michigan – all important swing states next November – to impress upon Democratic party leaders what they think has been outright discrimination – and not of the racial kind.

“We have been vigilant against expressions of racism, and we are thrilled that the society has advanced that way” in accepting Obama as a serious candidate,” Ruccia said. “But it’s been open season on women, and we feel we need to stand up and make a statement about that, because it’s wrong.”

With growing calls for Clinton to leave the race, she said, women feel like “we’re being told to sit down, shut up, and get with the program.”

Hard to know what to make of any given group, but the sentiment is clearly out there, and putting the party back together will be Obama's, and Clinton's, challenge.

Oh, and they're doing O'Reilly tonight, of course.


http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0508/Clinton_backer_backlash.html

[Kittycat]

1. Those aren't democrats. If they are, they'll

come to their senses and support the Democratic Nominee without causing any damage to the party. Or they can live with McCain stripping them of their right to choose by appointing RW judges. Not to mention the whole Iraq war thing.

[PoliticalAmazon]

43. Whatever. They are going to do what they are going to do. Let's move to the GE. n/t

[VeraAgnes]

90. From what I have been reading on the Blogs ....

There are millions of them! November may not be pretty for us if this continues. I think the John Edwards endorsement was staged and intented to be a slap in Hillary's face....That unfortunately has caused great pain for our Party!

We reap what we sow.

[havocmom]

138. Millions? In their dreams

If there are millions of them, how come HRC can't raise funds like Obama can?

[billyoc]

140. LOL, Millions?! They couldn't get 50 people to show up for a Clinton protest

in New York City, a city of 8 million, which Clinton represents in the U.S. Senate! :rofl:

[Carolina]

147. we didn't sow this HRC did

Millions of women support Obama, and those who support her JUST because she's a woman are fucking idiots.

Have they considered what she has NOT done in the past 7 years in the Senate at all.

HRC is about HRC and the ONLY fight she has shown has been for her own power.

[Mags]

187. right on.

[Elspeth]

143. These ARE Democrats. And it has been open season on women this primary.

Both the media and Obama supporters have been worse than I could have ever imagined.

[Carolina]

148. open season??? No, people don't like HRC because

of what she's done:

IWR
Patriot Act
Going along with Bush to get along and get ahead
Triangulation
Assumption of inevitability
Poor loser
Kitchen sink

Hillbots just want to blame her gender because they can't handle the TRUTH!

[Liberal Veteran]

156. Yep. They just can't grasp the fact that some people don't Hillary for herself and couldn't care...

....less about her sexual organs.

[RoadRage]

2. ... and stupidly vow to undermine THEMSELVES!

Hate Obama all you want - but if you like Hillary because of her positions, then it is utterly stupid to not vote for Obama. He & Hillary are about 2 inches apart from each other on issues... the difference is the vehicle that the issues arrive to Washington in.

The difference between McCain & Clinton is astounding. But, if you want to "punish" the DNC or Obama for stealing away Hillary's "right" to be president - go for it. Sit through 4 more years of a Republican.. and then watch Hillary still not get elected in 4 - 8 more years, because now MORE then half of the country hates her (it used to only be half).

But whatever.. i know many who like to cut their noses off frequently.. so, cut away.

[galaxy21]

5. They want John Mccain controlling their uterus?

[TBF]

96. And not just their uterus...

The next pick to the Supreme Court is about giving the far right a clear majority on every issue. Privacy, equal rights, separation of church and state, the commerce clause... the list goes on and on. This is just sheer stupidity on this part. I'd actually be able to admire Hillary a little if she puts an end to it.

[pompano]

100. Or their pay...

as opposed to their male counterparts in the workplace.

Not to mention Mc Hundreds hundred year war? Say goodbye to Rowe v. Wade. Say hello to $10.00 a gal gas. Say goodbye to organized labor as whats left of it.

For the women that choose to be homemakers well they can become tent makers or cardboard box makers as the McIdon'tknoweconomics policies more than likely triple home foreclosures.

That'll show those Obama supporters, won't it? Na-Na-Na-Nuh_Na_Na.

[JerseygirlCT]

3. Wow. I think they're doing huge harm to the cause of feminism

with this.

It reads as nothing more than sour grapes. From a group of people who would eagerly put their hurt feelings above the good of the country. And to what purpose?

Hillary Clinton is not a feminist icon. She doesn't (nor could any one person) represent all the hopes and dreams of feminism. Her opponent would be at least as likely to further gender equality. But they don't like him, because he's not their candidate. So they'll toss the whole thing and stamp their feet. That'll show us all!

Despicable. Time for this bunch to grow the hell up.

[Why Syzygy]

18. "Clinton Supporters Count Too" .. honestly sounds like a 7th grade girl's club.

Call me sexist all you want (I'm not). She is lying about racism not being an issue in the race.

I am SO PISSED to be part of the demographic they are lumping to Hillary. I can't stand her or her dupes.
SORE LOSERS. Team playing is not taught to girls. That should be corrected, but it is obvious from the Clinton camp.

[Darth_Kitten]

93. Geez, what have 7th grade girls done to you?

:sarcasm:

[mkultra]

94. ran against the democratic nominee

[graycem]

19. It absolutely does

harm it. Even if she were the icon they've made her out to be, it paints women as emotional, irrational, sore losers. It was Hillary who said if you can't stand the heat, and all that jazz. My GOD more women should speak out to women like this because they're embarrassing us.

[Darth_Kitten]

92. Gee, what cause are smug Obama supporters destroying?

Geez, when you hear of some guys doing something you don't like, does the cause of mankind take a beating? :sarcasm:

It's not up to you to decide for others who is or isn't a feminist icon to them. Maybe it's time for you to grow up a bit.

[Larkspur]

4. They can join Joe Lieberman

These Clinton supporters are so blind to Hillary's dark side that they can't see that they are walking the same path as Joe Lieberman.

Karma is a B*tch and Hillary is finding out that its a bigger one than her.

[burythehatchet]

6. screw all 8 of them

[marmar]

10. LOL....

:D

[BlooInBloo]

7. Obama's best course is to expect nothing from Clinton supporters, and campaign accordingly.

[pbca]

8. The Clan takes many forms

it has to be more subtle now and can't just run around with the white hats.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24588813/

[leftofcool]

22. Female Clinton supporters are Klan members?

[JoFerret]

29. And ALL male Clinton supporters

are Storm Fronters.
Seriously folks - the bottom line is always respect. That and the very REAL need to keep key issues up front and visible.
No-one needs to be pushed to the edge. If democrats have learned any lesson over the past decades it is that we all matter.

[DJ13]

9. Question: Is it more sexist to not vote for Clinton because you dont like her?

Or is it more sexist for a group to try to undermine an entire election because she's a woman that couldnt win on her own?

[havocmom]

139. word

:yourock:

[BayouBengal07]

11. Not quite.

"women feel like “we’re being told to sit down, shut up, and get with the program.”"

No, women aren't being told to sit down, shut up, and get with the program. Democrats are being told to sit down, shut up, and get with the program. Their gender has nothing to do with it.

[flor de jasmim]

12. It's HILLARY'S responsibility to make it clear that this is not appropriate.

No more "wink wink nod nod"!

[mystieus]

26. Absolutely spot on

If Hillary doesn't tell these people to stop, she should be forced out of the nomination process by the DNC.

Hillary needs to:

- Concede defeat at some point before the convention
- Endorse Barack Obama directly at point of concession
- Remind her supporters that getting a democrat in office is the number one priority of any Hillary Clinton supporter

If she fails to do that, it's clear what her intentions are.

[DeschutesRiver]

85. Agree

Man, it is an election process - sometimes you win, or lose, or draw, and I am not interested in people who lose and automatically pretend it is sexism (or racism or add your fav "ism").

There are far more people who act like kids throwing a tantrum now days than I ever remembered seeing when I was going up and growing old. I don't like the trend.

[BlackVelvet04]

102. Hillary doesn't control what we say, think and do....

Obama may have control of YOU but Hillary doesn't control me.

[BlackVelvet04]

99. Hillary doesn't get to dictate how people vote...

neither do you, or Obama or anyone else.

I'm not obligated to sit down, shut up and do what I'm told by the Democrats or anyone else.

I don't OWE anyone my vote.

[neverforget]

105. You're willing to vote for Hillary because you believe in her but when

she says to vote for the Democratic nominee regardless of who it is, you don't believe her or what?

[BlackVelvet04]

106. I don't do hero worship....

I don't "believe in" Hillary. I agree with many of her positions and I appreciate what she has done for women and children throughout her life. I don't worship her, I don't blindly follow her. Maybe, as an Obama supporter, that's tough for you to understand.

[Egnever]

136. So then whats your problem with Obama ?

their positions for the most part are pretty similar. Unless you like the warmonger stuff from Hillary.

[BlackVelvet04]

159. Do you feel better that you got your slam

into the discussion? I guess that's the end of this otherwise rather civil discussion.

[neverforget]

161. Did I say anything about "worship'? I did not. Don't put words in my mouth.

As an Obama supporter, I like you, believe in my candidate. Unlike you however, I am a Democrat and realize that if a Democrat does not win this year, the US is fucked. I would vote for Hillary if she were the nominee but that doesn't look likely now does it?

[Zhade]

188. You certainly have no problem with her proven lies.

NT!

[Danger Mouse]

121. she'll throw her fellow women under the bus without hesitation out of sheer bitterness.

clinton would have no use for such a person.

[BlackVelvet04]

160. Maybe the female Obama supporters are the one's guilty

of throwing their fellow women under the bus. Why should I feel any loyalty to them when they felt none? If they were so worried about their reproductive rights maybe they should have supported the woman who has made that so much of her business. yet, they preferred to vote for someone who voted PRESENT on those issues. Your pathetic attempt to try and make me feel guilty failed hugely.


Did someone invite you to what was previously a civil discussion? Feel better now that you got to vent against me since you seem to love to seek out my posts to make your snarky comments?

[Danger Mouse]

164. Obama has a 100% rating for NARAL. Do you have a response for that?

I don't seek your posts out, but if I come across them, I feel compelled to say something.

[lumpy]

176. Hillary Clinton has a 100% rating from NARAL also

v

[dionysus]

162. hey, you want to call me a "lowlife piece of shit" again like you did yesterday shillbot?

why aren't you doing your job being the site administrator for capital shill?

you people are so pathetic you have to use the DU PM system to screen people who sign up for that pathetic pile of a web site...

"due to obama supporters trying to join our site please PM me, blackvelvet04, on DU"

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[WeDidIt]

13. They aren't Democrats they're Limb-bots

These are the dregs of Operation Chaos.

[Clear Blue Sky]

14. Go for it. Get ready for President McCain...nt

[CakeGrrl]

15. They're playing right into one of the negative female stereotypes

...the vengeful, spiteful "woman scorned".

That might get a short-term result, but it won't garner long-term respect.

And if Hillary wants to hold onto any of her political capital, she'd be smart to own up to, or if she's incapable of doing that, at least reach out to repair the damage she's done playing the "Don't pick on the girl" card she and Bill play when it suits her in between rattling her "Obliterate Iran" saber and getting lauded by her surrogates on her impressive "cojones".

:mad:

[OzarkDem]

62. Only uneducated, misogynist right wingers fall for that

Which one are you?

[ElsewheresDaughter]

16. when are some of you peeps gonna get it>>>>Politico is a rightwing site

[madmom]

71. I'm glad someone else said this, I'm a female boomer from Ohio, I'm

very active in politics (precinct chairman))and I have never heard of this group so I'm am inclined to believe the poster who said they or limbots and rightwingers trying to cause a ruckus.

[JTFrog]

78. LOL! Talk about hypocrisy. You only criticize the source when it suits you.

Just like your candidate. The spin and triangulation have just been fantabulous this season!

You link to politico yourself and don't seem to have trouble when others link to politico when they are Obama bashing.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=385&topic_id=98706&mesg_id=98965

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5155460#5156028

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4647497#4648450

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5252907&mesg_id=5262200


Trust me, we get it.

[Egnever]

137. Got it long ago

that ones gonna leave a mark.:toast:

[lumpy]

178. Hear hear

v

[AtomicKitten]

17. Sour grapes isn't a feminist response to losing -- It's a sore loser response.

[silverweb]

20. Loud-mouthed fools, all of them.

At least as stupid as anyone else who will vote against their own interests and the good of the country because of one, relatively minor, hot-button issue.

Let them try to undermine Obama. Those of us who see the bigger picture will sweep them away.

[rox63]

21. Clinton's loss had little or nothing to do with her gender

It had to do with her poorly run campaign, and her arrogant attitude that she was the inevitable nominee, and thus did not have to work for the nomination.

[newmajority]

23. Can we dispense with the illusion that Hillary is some "poor defenseless oppressed woman"

How about the reality that she is a willing member of an organization which has undermined the Democratic party for over 20 years?

How about the fact that her husband's term, which she erroneously claims as HER experience is responsible for NAFTA, the 1996 Telecommunications Act, The Indefensible Marriage Act and many other things which still affect this country - and not in a good way - to this day?

How about the fact that she has, and continues to (as recently as West Virginia) use race baiting and makes blatant claims about getting the WHITE vote??

It's not her gender that is the problem. It's her twisted dark soul.

[Carolina]

149. exactly... you said it so well

but Hillbots can't accept the truth so they cry foul sexism. How stupid.

Anyway, millions of women truly do support Obama!

[kevinmc]

24. *BREAKING* Small Group makes Big Noise ..... Nobody Cares ... Film at 11 n/t

[Phoonzang]

25. I hope they enjoy it when abortion is outlawed

by McCain's new supreme court.

[NashVegas]

27. Most of Them Probably Won't Be Directly Affected

If abortion were outlawed, after young women of child-bearing age, young men who've become accustomed to casual sex would be the most affected.

[RainDog]

28. Clinton supporters couldn't do more to undermine feminism

if they choose this tactic. Third wave feminists who support Obama will have one more reason to dismiss these women and see them as a problem, not a solution. And those who go along with them will find they will lose female votes in the future.

My opposition to Clinton has NOTHING to do with her being a female. Is it really so hard for some women to understand that simply being a woman does not mean other women must support someone? How anti-feminist is that?

I am looking at candidates and evaluating them on the basis of my opinion about what is best for this nation. I do not think dynastic politics are best for this nation. I do not think a continuation of the Clinton political machine is best for this nation. I do not want Hillary in office because I do not think she is the best candidate to deal with issues that are important to me.

I want to see a female president in my lifetime. Clinton is not that female.

[endarkenment]

30. Ruccia is a piece of work

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,985297,00.html

[roseBudd]

46. Good find, Ruccia also employs gutter politics

[OzarkDem]

55. She's only used those tactics against Republicans

If you're a Republican, I can understand why you wouldn't like her.

[roseBudd]

75. I'm sorry but Democrats shouldn't use homophobia

[Pushed To The Left]

168. She is threatening to help the Republicans beat us if Obama is the nominee

If she wants to help Republicans and hurt Democrats, especially in a crucial election like this one, then she's fair game. She should be treated just like Coulter, Limbaugh, Hannity or any other member of the right wing.

[OzarkDem]

52. She sounds pretty courageous, good for her

Anyone with the guts to challenge the GOP's fair haired Ohio guy, John Kasich during the dark years of GOP repression gets my support. Where is Kasich these days?

[NashVegas]

31. Good For Them!

I'm sorry there are people who don't see the necessity behind this and who don't or won't see the sexist and gender-based attacks that were freely utilized this cycle.

If women don't stand up against this now and promise the party some payback if the shit doesn't stop, or if there isn't some form of make good, sexism will remain an accepted campaign tactic against female candidates.

[cali]

32. yeah, good for them! Planning to throw their support to a man who called his wife

the "c" word, and who's vowed to appoint justices like Scalia. Brilliant!

[rodeodance]

36. not to worry cali-i keep hearing O has it in the bag on Du. besides no where

does it say they will not actually vote for mccain. so keep cool.

[geek tragedy]

73. Get off these boards, you McCain lover. n/t

[fujiyama]

141. If you support these idiots, then please fuck off!

Seriously.

Roe V Wade and other issues regarding women's privacy and reproductive health may mean little to you, but it does to millions of other women. You want to destroy many accomplishments made during the feminist movement, go right ahead...but do it elsewhere. This board doesn't welcome supporting republicans or third party candidates during presidential elections.

[NashVegas]

146. Roe v Wade, Roe v Wade, Roe v Wade

I swear ... y'all must think we're all freaking Pavlov's dog.

Find another bell.

[fujiyama]

165. If you don't understand the significance of a permanent conservative majority on the SC

you are too stupid for me to waste my time with.

As I said. If you support these fuckers, adios. Go support McCain's grand invasions. After all, your candidate did say he is qualified.

[DU GrovelBot]

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This week is our second quarter 2008 fund drive. Democratic Underground is
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[flvegan]

34. Brand recognition loyalty.

That's all it is in so many of these instances.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

35. That'll teach us women a lesson!

How to cut off our my nose to spite my own face is a lesson I've always longed to learn. :sarcasm:

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mystieus]

38. There are better qualified female VP picks than Hillary. ..

[dana_b]

39. I disagree with some here

in that I think that there are a lot more of these women/Clinton supporters who feel this way than you think. Have any of you even peeked at the Hillary Clinton forum? There are a lot of them there. I am NOT saying that I agree with them - quite the opposite. But right now they are so upset and feel so ignored that they are going to these extremes to make sure that they're heard. i think the dems need to reach out to them, listen and try to understand what they're saying. Not necessarily give in to demands that "hillary should be made the nominee", but don't ignore them and tell them that their vote isn't important. That's ridiculous.

Let's face it BO is going to be the nominee and they're hurting. Both he and Clinton need to address this soon.

[mystieus]

41. of course some of her supporters wont vote but we have to move on at some point.

[ShortnFiery]

40. If you have to go on O'Reily to get your message out, you may not be a democrat.

:thumbsdown:

[AspenRose]

53. It makes no sense

Going on the television show of a known sexist pig.

What are they thinking?!

[lumpy]

179. When asked Obama said he is going to go on O'Reilly or has

he done so already? I rarely what that TV show. It is worse than GDP.

[Window]

42. I can't believe how stupid, selfish and hateful some people are,

and I've been around a long time.

[Owl]

44. Piss on 'em.

[aquarius dawning]

45. 27 electoral votes slipping away. Piss on 'em.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dhalgren]

59. Way to show that Obama supporters aren't women bashers...

:eyes:

[Cheap_Trick]

70. bashing THOSE women, yes

not ALL women, so unwad your panties

[lumpy]

180. Heaven forbid that Obama supporters would bash women!

Never never never...well.. just Hillary maybe.

[democrattotheend]

81. Whoa, is that language necessary?

I am an Obama supporter but as a woman I am offended by the use of the c word. It's not acceptable, period. You really make Obama look bad with crap like that.

[fujiyama]

142. Piss on you!

Actually piss on all of us, if this is the way you and other supporters of your whiny loser of a candidate feel.

[Cheap_Trick]

47. they'll try, and they'll fail

this party is better off without Lieberman Democrats like them.

[aquarius dawning]

48. yeah, look how we fucked Lieberman...er wait a minute. never mind.

[endarkenment]

50. Good point.

Indeed if Clinton stages an independent run for the presidency we will lose in November. That was your point, wasn't it?

[TeamJordan23]

51. So they prefer a woman's right to choice to be overturned by the Supreme Court?

b/c that is exactly what will happen with McCain.

[OzarkDem]

54. They prefer a candidate who respects ALL women's issues

and knows there are many more issues important to women than birth control and the right to an abortion.

Shame on any candidate or group of people who trivialize women in such a manner, as if their only identity and importance is related to their reproductive organs. Eff off with that.

On edit: I always find it interesting that the men in the Democratic party only care about the women's issues that pertain to some man being the unfortunate participant in an unplanned pregnancy. Your selfishness is duly noted.

[geek tragedy]

74. They're knuckle-dragging morons if they support McCain.

Period.

[Warren DeMontague]

123. But Hillary respects "all women's issues", and you're "selfish" for bringing up Roe v. Wade!

Yes! She respects ALL womens issues, not just the ones you bad selfish mens are on about! ALL of 'em!

ALL of 'em!

What they are, specifically, I can't really say, but there are lots of 'em, they're important to women, and Obama doesn't give a shit about 'em!

Really!

:eyes:

[Petrushka]

135. Did you really say "Period."?

:spank:

[Warren DeMontague]

120. What PRECISE "women's issues", as you put it, does Obama not respect that Hillary does?

Please.

Be specific.

Really, I'd like to know what's more important that birth control and the right to an abortion. I'm all ears. Specifically.

[democrattotheend]

134. McCain opposes equal pay legislation

Clinton and Obama both support it.

[Carolina]

150. and WAR is a woman's issue???!!!

Hillary, the warmonger, the IWR aye-voter, they saber rattler against Iran...

The woman who as Senator (which is her only real experience not derived from being Bill's wife) has mostly gone along with Bush to get politically ahead.

Spare me, HRC fights for HRC and power only.

Interesting that Marian Wright Edelman, a real fighter for children and families and FORMER Clinton friend, has not said a word or endorsed the woman that Samantha Power correctly called a monster!!!!

[SeattleGirl]

56. Then I hope they stop calling themselves Democrats.

And Ms. Ruccia, what you're being told is that Obama is winning. I'm sorry if you can't accept reality.

[OzarkDem]

57. They're the best kind of Democrats

the ones who stand up for the candidate who represents the base of the Democratic party - women voters.

As info: 52-55% of Dem voters are women. Since when do we need more men telling us they can lead better than we can lead ourselves.

[SeattleGirl]

60. Sorry, but I don't support Hilary. And guess what? I made up my

own mind.

To use your logic, I should support Hilary ONLY because she's a woman.

I'm sorry you aren't strong enough to make up your own mind, but are only buying into the groupthink that says a woman, any woman, is the way to go.

[OzarkDem]

There are a few exceptions

but most long-time, loyal Dem women voters are making a stand to support a woman president, and for good reason.

If you don't like the Democratic party, leave it.

[SeattleGirl]

65. What I don't like is people trying to cram someone down my throat

just because she's a woman.

You want me to turn my mind off and blindly choose someone because we share the same gender.

Ain't going to happen.

Oh, and do not EVER tell me to leave the party. You are way out of line on that.

[OzarkDem]

67. Then respect other Democrats' choices

as they respect yours. And accept that this race is a draw.

[SeattleGirl]

69. I do respect choices. I don't respect people who are trying to ignore

the reality that Obama is ahead, and are using claims of sexism to get their way.

AND THE RACE IS NOT A DRAW.

[AZ Criminal JD]

79. Clinton ahead in the popular vote

Number of people who have voted for Clinton: 16,710,298 or 47.7%. Number of people who have voted for Obama: 16,680,827 or 47.6%. SO IT IS A DRAW.

[SeattleGirl]

88. No, it isn't, and popular vote is not how we decide candidates.

You may not like that, but it is what it is.

AND AGAIN, IT IS NOT A FUCKING DRAW!

[totodeinhere]

89. I don't know where you got that figure, but actually we don't know how many votes...

either candidate has got since four caucus states did not report votes, only delegates. So we don't know how many votes either candidate got in those states. Therefore, it is inaccurate to say that Clinton is leading in popular votes since it is impossible to know that.

[Warren DeMontague]

126. Ah, that's the new lie, isn't it?

Cough. Bullshit.

[AZ Criminal JD]

171. Got something in your mouth?

[muryan]

173. Even Hillary's people admit shes not ahead in the popular vote

Even if you use the twisted math scenario I've seen so many times on this forum.

Heres a clue, states that have caucuses count just as much as states that have primaries.

[AZ Criminal JD]

174. I don't know what you mean by "Hillary's people"

Hillary is ahead if the votes of Florida and Michigan are included. After the final primaries end June 3rd she will be ahead by any measure. Obama is suffering from buyer's remorse.

[muryan]

192. Where are you getting this math?

The only way shes ahead in popular vote, even with MI/FL included is if you discount the 4 caucus states that just send in delegate totals, not votes. So you are discounting the votes of 4 states in the interest of making you flimsy argument.

[lumpy]

181. LOL

ugh

[Zhade]

190. No, she's not. Your figures are wrong.

NT!

[RiverStone]

191. And the number of people that voted in illegitimate contests...

...from states that broke the DNC rules?

[Carolina]

152. a draw my ass... so that explains why HRC has to beg for donors

millions truly support Obama while HRC is just a power hungry sore loser.

[Gore1FL]

175. Why?

her candidate is winning the nomination.

[Warren DeMontague]

125. If they refuse to vote for the Democratic Nominee, if they support the Republican, they're ASSHOLES.

ASSHOLES.

They're not "best kind of Democrats", they're ASSHOLES.

Did I mention they're assholes?

[lumpy]

182. Takes one to know one

x

[Flying Dream Blues]

158. The best kind of Democrats don't actively campaign against the party's nominee.

I'm a woman and a feminist and I don't see ANYTHING Hillary brings to women's issues that Obama does not. Making this about "sexism" after the race is lost is just bitter and petty, and most of all not believable. I find the whole argument that Hillary is the victim of ANYTHING in this race completely baseless. If anything, Hillary has gone after Obama's race and religion to prove her point that she thinks he is "unelectable." Show me where Obama did anything of the kind.

[lumpy]

183. Obama has not brought a damned thing to women's issues

with the exception of unproven rhetoric. Show me anything else he has done for women except what every pol running for Top Job has done, cheap talk. Clinton has worked for health care for women and children, children's advancement/learning programs, Women's reproductive rights (NARAL 100% rating) and will probably continue to do waht she can for those issues.

[charlie]

58. Gay baiter

One such case is in Columbus, Ohio. For almost 14 years it had passed without comment that the local Congressman, John Kasich, the powerful chairman of the House Budget Committee, stretches his paycheck by sharing a Virginia town house for the two or three nights a week that Congress is in session. His housemate? His male chief of staff. Last month Cynthia Ruccia, Kasich's Democratic challenger, called for a Justice Department investigation of what she said was "a serious appearance of impropriety" because Kasich, who is divorced, lived with someone whose government salary he controls.

That was the official question. What it unofficially implied was that the two men might be otherwise involved. Though Ruccia denies that she intended to leave that impression, Kasich's office inevitably found itself having to deny that either man is gay. No federal investigation is likely. (To begin with, the Justice Department does not examine "appearances.") As it happens, Ruccia had long been a high-profile supporter of gay rights and Kasich an occasional ally at best. (He voted yes on AIDS funding, no on gay marriage.) But by raising the issue, she stands to benefit from whatever doubt she creates in the minds of voters hostile to gays.

Even Democrats were crying foul. "It was the worst sort of gutter politics and gay baiting," says Bob Fitrakis, Kasich's 1992 Democratic opponent. And the gay community in Kasich's congressional district also sensed an invitation to gay baiting. "It's disappointing to see it from a party that has been the most progressive on the issues," says Phil Martin, president of Stonewall Union, Ohio's largest gay-rights organization, which counts Ruccia as a member.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,985297,00.html

[Binka]

64. Ohio's largest gay-rights organization, which counts Ruccia as a member.

Ruccia is a fucked up shitdustbag. :eyes:

[charlie]

66. Shaddup. Sit down!

:D

Just wanted to see what that felt like, since apparently it's all the rage with us non-Hillarites.

I'm thinking maybe I'll send Ms Ruccia all the leering articles I can find about Hillary and her aide, see if the hypocrite pops her cork.

[OzarkDem]

68. You don't like her because she's in a gay rights group?

What's wrong with that?

[Alexander]

128. You mean you don't care that she's in a gay rights group and attacked John Kasich as gay?

I guess you Shillbots don't care about being hypocrites as long as you get your way.

[sfam]

61. So men aren't told, "Sit down, shut up, and get with the program"?

I beg to differ.

That said, I have NO problems if the Clinton campaign campaigns without bashing our nominee. More power to them - that becomes a positive.

[beachmom]

63. They have NO RESPECT for the voters who chose differently.

I guess those women are NOT SERIOUS about the issues. Or a woman's right to choose.

[lumberjack_jeff]

72. This will pass - if allowed to do so.

[flpoljunkie]

76. Hillary Clinton has said she will work her heart for the Dem nominee. Hope they follow her lead.

[lumpy]

184. She and Obama are working in concert to raise funds for DNC,

also. She is a better Dem than some of her detractors on this sorryassed forum.

[billyoc]

77. Wow, they sound pretty fierce.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[ccharles000]

80. I am a Hillary supporter...

and not all of us are like that. I will vote for whoever our nominee is.

[lumpy]

185. I am a Clinton supporter but I' m not sure I want to vote for a

dark horse. I want to hear more from Obama, who his backers are, who he is proposing for cabinet positions, more detail of his proposals on issues etc. I take my vote seriously and will write in if he disappoints me, especially who he plans on having close in his administration.

[democrattotheend]

193. I don't think he'll release his cabinet picks before the election

Candidates don't typically do that...it opens up a can of worms and gives the other candidate ammunition to vet and exploit any skeletons in any of the cabinet appointees' closets.

[Thrill]

82. You would think Obama has run a nasty campaign against her

And he hasn't done that at all.

[WillyT]

83. K & R !!!

:kick:

[Bensthename]

84. Will their 15 people reach the other 300,000,000 that dont give a shit

what they say because Obama has won this fair and square.

[Willo]

86. These are those not so nice tactics

women use on their mates, when they don't get their way.

Withhold and threats to withhold, sex, cooked meals and access to the bed. Threats every other weekend, to end the relationship.

Winning and being acknowledged, is seemingly more important than doing what's right.

So, they win enough times and end up alone and lonely, or with mates resigned to staying but getting their needs satisfied elsewhere.

I talk to young women all the time about this. These and similar tactics are petty and detrimental to ANY relationship, business or romantic.

I often debunk the 50/50 relationship rule. It is wrong to just give half and wait until that person meets you there. You aim is to give 100% of yourself all the time.

[Dhalgren]

113. What an unmitigated load of horse-shit!

:rofl:

:rofl:


:rofl:


:rofl:

[Willo]

145. Obviously, I hit your sore spot? nt

[lumpy]

186. Hey I have met some women like that. Unbelievable, but true.

ugly

[workinclasszero]

87. Hillary needs to slap these "democrats" down...now!

If she refuses?

hmm....

[IndianaGreen]

91. Let them join Lieberman and the other assholes supporting the senile McCain

Good riddance!

[MadMaddie]

95. Sooooooooooo....we are supposed to give the Nomination

to Hillary because of the fact she is a woman?

What was the point of having a competition if in the end the person that did not run a successful strategic campaign is given the win because she is a woman?
She and her campaign failed critical junctures:

Didn't plan for what happens after the first Super Tuesday
Ran a poor campaign
Mismanaged her money
Her chosen staff damaged her everyday
She used race baiting to win WV

As a woman, this defeats the purpose of the womens movement, is it just me?

This is beyond selfish......

[avenger64]

97. I won't undermine him, but I won't vote for him either. Nader.

or:

To the convention!

[walldude]

109. Well... thanks for nothing.. I'm sure the families with children in Iraq

and families with no health care, and people losing their homes and people suffering from the recession appreciate your vote :eyes:

What? Obama piss in your Cheerio's this morning? Or is it his supporters who insulted you into basically voting for McCain. Is your pride more important than people who are actually suffering and dying under neo-con rule?

Don't kid yourself, you vote for Nader you may as well have voted for McCain.

[Writer]

98. Women: We have done this to ourselves by trying to act vigilant in the faces of men.

Every time we tell a woman to keep a stiff upper lip in the face of serious sexist behavior in the workplace and in politics, we eliminate yet another opportunity to fight it. We set up younger generations of women to suffer the same treatment, and instead of facing this stuff head on, we wrongly tell fellow women to turn the other cheek.

Women: Men aren't going to change when we try to act like them by trying to appear unflinchingly "tough." Looking the other way is NEITHER strength NOR female empowerment. All this will do is make sure that the behavior is ready for yet another woman who unfortunately comes by way of the misogynist. If we continue to do this, I guarantee, NOTHING WILL CHANGE.

These women are standing up against what they feel has been a Democratic Party that has looked the other way to very blatant displays of sexist behavior. I don't blame them, in fact, good for them for doing what so many women refuse to do under the false pretense of "not playing the victim."

For every action is an opposite and equal reaction. This is but one. There will be more.

[BlackVelvet04]

101. You are so right...

this has nothing to do with loyalty to Hillary. The Obama supporters refuse to get it so I've quit trying to explain it. They don't want to get it, they just want to try to manipulate and coerce us to their way of thinking.

What they don't realize is this isn't our first rodeo and probably won't be our last one either.

[Writer]

104. I wish this was not happening during the heat of a campaign so more would feel comfortable accepting

the obvious. If Clinton were running for a company position - say a CEO - and she faced similar treatment through corporate emails and signs posted on employees' cubes, several would be fired. The situation would be public, and there would be a public outcry.

As it stands, several use their political disagreement/dislike of Clinton as a reason to dismiss blatant displays of sexism. How different this would be if they didn't have such an emotional, vested interest in seeing her opponent win.

[EFerrari]

111. Who has said anything at all about a stiff upper lip?

And, do you feel comfortable sending other women out on a fool's errand? They are clearly picking on the wrong target. What a waste.

Reactivity is not a movement builder. Nor is attempting to change one gender in hopes the whole culture will change.

[Writer]

114. The attitudes of one race changed after transcending racist thought.

Why can't it be so for men?

[EFerrari]

116. When was racist thought transcended? I must have missed that.

And, the dynamics of the two situations share some features but aren't the same.

There's also that old saw: if you want something done, you have to do it yourself. Which pretty much rules out expecting other people to change the world for you.

Edit: Writer, I'm sorry if I sound cranky.

[Writer]

117. When have men transcended sexist thought?

These are two sides of the same coin: a need to fight against discrimination.

[EFerrari]

118. Discrimination is the umbrella but you are looking at two different situations.

People of color didn't get closer to social justice by changing white people. They fought to organize, to enlist allies and to change the law.

[Writer]

122. Whites marched with African-Americans during the civil rights movement.

And it took white men in the courts (along with Thurgood Marshall) to establish the laws that overturned institutionalized segragation. That, along with the activism of MLK and others, brought about civil rights.

It took EVERYONE, and it will take EVERYONE to combat sexism.

[EFerrari]

129. Um, de-segregation has been a huge failure. And, not everyone

was enlisted. Allies of all backgrounds were and politicians who could sense a shift made changes in their positions, like LBJ.

But at no point was EVERYONE working this problem. That's simply not true.

And while a certain segment of the feminist community seeks to change MEN, nothing much will change. First, the project cedes too much power to men and second, unless you are a brain surgeon, you can't force other people to change their thinking. Third, unless you're willing to be the change you want, you're spinning your wheels. Nothing keeps a conflict going as well as insisting that it's someone else's fault.

[Writer]

130. First, let's strike a difference between desegregation and civil rights.

As civil rights is represented by the 14th Amendment of the Constitution that calls for "equal protection under the law" which not only accompanied the 13th Amendment that abolished slavery, it also served as the legal precedent for Brown v. Board of Education. It's also the same amendment used to support the Roe v. Wade ruling in 1973.

Desegregation has failed predominately because of the economic barriers still in place for many African-Americans. Cross-cutting cleavages of both racial and economic injustice have created a high barrier for poor African-Americans in this nation. Furthermore, the reduction of manufacturing jobs in urban centers have exacerbated the problem.

However we're discussing discrimination against WOMEN and sexist behavior. And according the the 14th Amendment we should all be treated equally under the law. Both African-Americans AND women. Women should not have to face sexist behavior when they go to work, as African-Americans shouldn't face racist behavior, nor should homosexuals face discrimination against their sexual-orientation. We're all protected under the same amendment, and we all deserve an equal hearing when we believe our constitutional rights have been violated.

While it wasn't institutionalized, both Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton have faced anti-constitutional discrimination while they have been campaigning. Unfortunately racist, sexist, and homophobic speech are legal according to the First Amendment (hate speech) despite the fact that such speech is used to undermine both candidates as they campaign.

However, for many, hate speech for one carries more weight than hate speech for another. And that's where we've erred.

[EFerrari]

132. So, now you've abandoned the (failed) populist argument

for the law. That's fine but it's also opposite to your earlier claims which equated the civil rights movement for people of color to the women's movement. And then, you jumble the First Amendment with hate speech.

No wonder you folks are upset all the time.

The fact of the matter is that Hillary Clinton has been given special treatment because she is Bill Clinton's wife and because as his wife, she demanded that treatment -- she still is demanding it. Her own abilities and strengths were more or less strangled in the cradle over the political pull she could siphon off from him. That was her decision and I think it was a stupid one because she is an able person. But, that wasn't my call to make -- it was hers. That it didn't work is unfortunate but that strategy isn't one I'd ever recommend to my daughter when she's trying to show that she is a leader.

[Carolina]

153. these women are fucking fools to

support a candidate JUST because she's a woman.

Hillary doesn't give a shit about anyone but Hillary.
Hillary doesn't give a shit about anything but power.

Hillary is NOT a victim of anything but her own hubris.
But the fools who support her in this "bite your nose to spite your face" manner will be when McCain wins!

[gbrenna]

103. I do not understand how

a woman could vote for John McCain knowing he will put judges on the supreme court who will overturn Roe V Wade.

[IndianaGreen]

107. Not just overturn Roe, but Griswold as well, the privacy decision

Overturning Griswold, as Scalia wants to do, would criminalize certain sex acts among consenting adults even married couples (oral sex).

[4themind]

110. And the birth control pill too

I think enough people understand the precipice we're on now in judicial appointment.

[gbrenna]

170. Yes-you are correct.

I had not considered that.

[Imagevision]

108. nah! I doubt it once they start hearing Bush jr. (McCain) running his mouth off about

only 5 more years or 100 hundred years left in Iraq (for openers) talk about shooting yourself in the foot!

[apocalypsehow]

112. Hell, the HRC boosters here brag about doing just that everyday - look at all the gushing love

Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, and the rest of the stars of right-wing Hate Radio get from the HRC boosters here. They are licking their chops at the prospect of supporting McCain now that their Queen's coronation has been derailed.

[AZBlue]

115. Proof positive they are Republicans posing as Democrats.

[VotesForWomen]

119. uh, haven't quite a few O supporters here threated not to vote for hill? oh, nevermind....

[Danger Mouse]

124. yes, they have, and i have two words for them:

'fucking morons.'

[Warren DeMontague]

127. She gets the nomination, I will absolutely vote for her. I've always said I'd support the nominee.

And I've always said that anyone who won't is an ASSHOLE.

There's way too much at stake this year for this sort of whiny, petulant, Waaaaaah-I-didn't-get-my-way bullshit.

[Teaser]

155. that is the defense of a child...

"But mommy, they're doing it too."


It's one thing to point out an inequity. But it is not a defense.

[VotesForWomen]

169. it was not a defense. i was just pointing it out. i could give you a defense, but i'm not going to

bother.

[Beacool]

131. Does this surprise anyone????

I kept telling you people that you bashed Hillary at your own peril, but in your arrogance you didn't want to hear it. Last night my phone was ringing off the hook with people calling me to say that they would not vote for Obama, and one going as far as saying that he would vote for McCain.

Why? Edwards's last minute endorsement and the booing by the crowd. People are fed up.

The party leaders are living in an alternate world if they think that they can keep trashing Hillary and there won't be a backlash by the 49% of Democrats who voted for her. The comments by Kennedy, Pelosi and some others have only stoked the fire.

Everyone knows that this will probably be done by June 3. So, what's the rush? Why try to humiliate Hillary and kick her in the teeth? The more she's forcibly pushed out, the more many of us will dig our heels and refuse to vote for the other guy.

You want party unity? Start by treating Hillary and her supporters with respect.

[still_one]

133. Anything from politico is suspect. It makes no sense that those who supported

Clinton would not support Obama if he was the nominee

Why would they have supported Clinton if they didn't believe in choice and womens rights?

Both Obama and Clinton believe in womens rights, mccain doesn't

It is as simple as the supreme court

[ShadowLiberal]

144. This is exactly why parties with primaries this long almost always lose, it's a SERIOUS problem

This is a serious problem if they'll be campaigning for McCain and working against Obama in the general election.

It's definitely really stupid and self destructive to feminism what they're doing, I think unfortunately the only way that Obama can effectively fight this group is if he can get Hillary to privately meet with them and convince them to support Obama because of how horrible McCain will be for women's rights compared to Obama, or get Hillary to campaign against them and praise Obama for being great for women's rights.

What the group is doing is like a man owing you $100,000 dollars, and saying "well listen, I'm only going to be able to pay you back $50,000, I'm not going to be able to raise the other half". And then you saying "no, I'm getting all of my $100,000 from you, and if you won't give it I'll go go court and sue, no matter the cost". And then you sue the guy and win, but the guy spent his $50,000 on a lawyer to defend him from your lawsuit and he's bankrupt then, while you yourself just lost another $50,000 dollars paying for your own lawyer. Basically what I'm saying with this example is it's best to accept the second best thing you can get, rather then going "screw this, I want the #1 best option or nothing, I'll screw you over for not giving me the #1 option even if it'll screw myself over in the process".

[TexasObserver]

151. Why hasn't Hillary denounced and rejected those supporters?

[jgraz]

194. 2012, baby. 2012.

[high density]

154. Guess what, "sit down and shut up" comes at the end of a primary when your candidate doesn't win

This isn't a new phenomenon when the end of a political primary season comes along, and it's not a thing invented by Obama's campaign.

It seems a lot of her supporters want and expect her to run a Lieberman-style "independent" campaign at this point.

[Life Long Dem]

157. One of the two rock stars they put up on a pedestal has fallen.

If Edwards or Biden or a number of other candidates in this race were given the kind of treatment these two were there might have been more than the two man race the media shoved down our throats. Stop your damn whining and get over it.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

163. They didn't provide any legitimate examples of sexism against Hillary.

They merely pointed out some calls for Hillary to get out of the race, yet none of those calls came from Obama himself, who they want to take it out on.

And apparently, they don't understand that whoever has the most delegates *wins.* It doesn't matter what your gender or race is.

Besides, Hillary had every conceivable advantage otherwise going into this race, yet lost them all.

[BenDavid]

166. the democratic party is not always right, especially in this election

this old vote the party line if one's candidate loses is BS. Why would anyone that knows if obama is the nominee he will be the weaker of the two and why would folks give their support to him when folks know he is not ready. Do the dems wanna win or make a statement?

[Pushed To The Left]

167. These people anger me even more than the right wing because they should know better!

They are willing to have 4 more years of Bush policies and a right-wing Supreme Court over a stupid, petty and childish primary grudge. They care more about pulling a stunt than they do about abortion rights, gay rights, the war, etc.

If more lives and civil rights are lost in the next few years due to right wing policies, these people are just as much to blame as the right wing voters. In fact, in some ways they are worse; at least the right wing voters actually stand for something, as loathsome as it is.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

172. That's because

McCain is such a great candidate.

Some people (not all!) do not care about what happens if McCain is elected. The religious kookiness. The cabinet appointees. SCOTUS.

It is a cult.

When blind devotion is the guiding light than you have

a

cult.

I will vote for the Democrat nominee.

I support Obama but if by some wild chance Hillary is the person on my ballot, you bet your ass I will vote for her.

[rucky]

177. Right-Wing Stooges

"Useful Idiots," as Rush likes to call them.

every one of them - no matter how good their intentions may be.

[zulchzulu]

189. I'd love to hand a bloody coat hanger to every single last one of them

If they want to make the Repigs successful in their never-ending wars and want to help overturn Roe V. Wade, then they get the bloody coat hanger warning.

If they continue, then they are not Democrats. They are in the way.

I would venture to guess that these people are all talk and no action anyway...and are in small numbers.

[RoadRage]

195. So.. it's the "If my candidate doesn't win" I'm going to Cry attitude, eh?

Great. This was bound to happen anyway.. if Obama lost - then surely there would have been just as many on his "team" that would have decried racism instead of sexism.

It's a lose-lose for the Dem's. The irony of course is that the women throwing this fit are only going to help McCain win - which in turn will get a few more conservative SCOTUS nom's that will then over-turn Roe v Wade, and those 60 year old women can then sit back and watch thier daughters & grand daughters feel the ramifications that they helped obtain. But, no one said that Hillary's supporters were the brightest in the bunch.. just the most hard headed.