An Open Letter to Hillary Clinton Supporters

[ProSense]

An Open Letter to Hillary Clinton Supporters

by thereisnospoon
Fri May 16, 2008 at 05:34:06 AM PDT

I'd like to make a quick note to all of Hillary Clinton's supporters who are currently blaming sexism for the fact that your candidate has almost certainly lost sexism had nothing to do with it. In fact, it was anything but.

Sure, Hillary was the victim of some sexism, just as Obama has been the victim of some racism and McCain will be the victim of some ageism.

But that's not what spiked Clinton's chances. Bill Clinton would also have lost this year.

The truth is that there is a quiet battle being waged for the soul of the Democratic Party. Your candidate was on the wrong side of that divide. It wouldn't have mattered if Hillary had been male, and Obama female. What mattered here was ideology.

In column #1, you had:

• Barack Obama
  
• Progressive
  
• Howard Dean
  
• ground-up campaign
  
• rejection of lobbyists
  
• 50-state strategy
  
• bringing in new voters
  
• activist orientation
  
• establishing new coalitions
  
• downballot as important as top-of-ballot
  
• unapologetically espousing progressive principles and taking with you the voters that will come your way
  
• looking tough on national security by not voting with Republicans
  
• moving beyond the social issue fights that have characterized politics lo these many years.

In column #2, you had:

• Bill Clinton
  
• DLC Democrat
  
• Mark Penn
  
• Terry McAuliffe
  
• James Carville
  
• triangulation
  
• "lobbyists are real people"
  
• "big/swing state strategy"
  
• top-down campaign
  
• keep the old coalition alive at all costs and win back the Reagan "Dems" by magic pixie dust
  
• establishment oriented
  
• "the White House is all that matters"
  
• trying to look tough on national security by voting with Republicans to invade other countries to prove your bone fides
  
• and continuing the same squares/hippies proxy fights that have been taking place since the late 60's.

And that doesn't even get into 3am phone calls and other campaign tactics.

The simple truth is that the candidate who staked themselves out in column #2 was probably going to lose--and if wouldn't have mattered if they were black, brown, white, male, female, neuter, or space alien. The time for that ideology at the head of the Democratic Party has passed.

It is deeply unfortunate that the historic candidacy of a serious female contender for President had to get swept up and moved aside because she chose the wrong side of a party realignment and ideological divide. But that's just the way it went.

<...>

more

When Hillary's tactics fail, there is always the sexism argument. In addition to the above and this, here is why sexism is a lousy argument for why Hillary is losing:

• Hillary is losing because she is a poor manager.
  
• Her old strategist was overpaid and lousy.
  
• Sexism isn't responsible for Hillary adopting every RW talking point.

The sexism argument is another crutch to excuse the denial that she is a lousy candidate who came to the race prepared only with the notion that she couldn't lose.

Hillary's campaign is not about advancing women, it's about advancing Hillary

Why do some of Hillary's supporters continue to treat every endorsement as "betrayal"?

The Trouble With Brand Hillary

[leftofcool]

1. I noticed you didn't use "obliteration" under the Hillary

column, now that Biden has said the same thing, eh?

[ProSense]

2. Biden says a lot of stupid things too. That's always been his problem. n/t

[havocmom]

3. a-yup

It's the positions, not the gender.

[LeFleur1]

5. Positions Not Gender

So it's okay if you disagree with her positions to call a woman sexist names and make ugly comments about her gender?

See, you don't get it. This isn't about policy.
Your assertion that Obama had to deal with racism is not correct. But he will. The Republicans will play it for all it's worth. And when your candidate is trying to discuss important issues while dealing with racist words and slams (real ones, not manufactured racism) we'll see how you react to that.
Any person in the USA is welcome to disagree with policy, but to insult, slam, put out a media barrage of sexist or racist terms instead of sound disagreement statements should not be tolerated by anyone in the Democratic party.

[ProSense]

7. "okay if you disagree with her positions to call a woman sexist names and make ugly comments"?

Excuse me, but how the hell did you get that from the poster's comment?

Stop making up stuff and distorting what people say.

[havocmom]

27. Gender does not enter into it for me. I do not like her stands on too many issues

and would feel the same no matter who or what she was. IT'S THE POSITIONS. She is outta touch with too many of us with THE POSITIONS she takes on too many issues.

Insult? Slam? Sorry, that dog don't hunt! Scores of times I have been critical of her positrons ON ISSUES, I have been attacked here for being a sexist and worse. Sorry, but to paraphrase HRC, if ya can't stand the heat, the kitchen door is over there. Politics is a critical business. ANY citizen has the right to be critical of ANY politician on there performance and positions on issues. Yet a lot of HRC supporters have attacked any critique of Clinton as sexism. THAT in its self is a sexist attitude.

If you truly believe in gender equality, ya gotta take legitimate criticism and not howl that it's not fair because it's aimed at a woman. Constantly making that excuse for legitimate disagreement with and criticism of a politician who happens to be female hurts women. It does not help.

[mkultra]

72. shes a blad faced liar. is THAT sexist?

[Asgaya Dihi]

103. Real ones, not manufactured?

Problem is to us they are real. Same as to you they are real.

As early as the first primaries we had someone asking if Obama selling drugs should be a question. Now we've had a lot of candidates with drug use issues including Bill but I don't remember it ever coming up that they might have sold it or that we should be asking that question. Seemed some thought that should be an issue with Obama though. Hard to see that as other than racist suspicions. If you don't agree fine, but it's hardly a manufactured complaint.

Same as you all tend to feel about Hillary. I've seen Clinton supporters go after Dean and others for "pimping" Obama or "whoring" themselves out and they don't think a thing of it because they know they don't mean it sexually. Let the same thing be said in reference to Clinton in a similar context and people go through the roof, can't believe it's anything but sexist and don't seem to remember that those things are a part of their language too.

It's easy to take offense for and to sympathize with your side but it might be worth considering that the other sides complaints are as valid as yours, at least to them. We're all a bit two faced in that way if we don't watch ourselves for it. It's just human nature.

[patrice]

4. IWR reveals ALL and they WON'T talk straight about it. We WERE waiting and listening . . .

and it didn't happen. Now it's tooooooooooooooo late.

[Evergreen Emerald]

6. An open letter in rsponse:

To ignore sexism is to perpetuate it upon our daughters.

Your credibility is shot.

[ProSense]

8. "To ignore sexism is to perpetuate it upon our daughters. " What BS!

To ignore the point of the OP is denial. Period.

[LaurenG]

9. No one is ignoring sexism (well no one here at the moment)

What else do you have? And yes I'm a female and would have loved a female president, you know the rest.

[leftofcool]

10. Which is exactly what they want to do

Even most male Dems will walk lock step with those in the good ole boys club

[saltpoint]

12. You not only miss key points in posts, you shriek nonsense in

response to those posts.

What a combo.

[Evergreen Emerald]

65. "shriek" oh the irony.

[saltpoint]

85. Adjective deliberately chosen to provoke yet another shriek

from pseudo-feminists.

You've appeared to project "feminist" values onto a woman who is not, in fact, that much of a feminist. There are flickers of it, but by no means a sustaining flame.

And where were y'all when Senator Moseley-Braun ran for president? How odd that she did not receive the level of support in the primaries you lend to Hillary Clinton.

[Evergreen Emerald]

88. I honestly think you just can't help yourself....old dogs ...different era...new tricks

and all.

[saltpoint]

89. I'd be honored to be called a dog.

I like dogs.

[Swamp Rat]

92. SHAME ON YOU!!

:D

[saltpoint]

93. LOL! Swamp Rat! Howdy.

I am a dog.

I am a bad dog.

[Swamp Rat]

94. Nice doggie!

I love old dogs too. Mine passed away a few weeks ago, at 16 yrs old. :cry: He survived Katrina and we found each other again after it was all over. For three years we had each other until his time came.

Btw, I was a big-time supporter of Senator Moseley-Braun. ;)

[saltpoint]

95. Ah. Thank you. Sen. Moseley-Braun was a damned interesting soul.

And she deserved better than she got from the media, too. The media generally and Ted Koppel in particular.

So sorry about your dog. It's no fun losing valued pals. I hope the two of you together had the best of runs.

[Swamp Rat]

96. Ted Koppel is one of the awful, privileged elites.

Yes, I miss my dog very much. In all his years, he never bit a person. Part dingo, chow, lab, and pitbull, he was like a gentile, fuzzy bear. I lost his sister immediately after finding her, after the storm. :(

Have you seen the Evil DU GrovelBot? PatriotBot is hunting for him, and is gonna give him the "business." :D

[saltpoint]

97. Swamp Rat, you always have the best tales to tell on these

boards.

If I didn't know no better, I'd think you're one of them durn inteleckshuls the Far Right keeps warnin' about.

[Swamp Rat]

98. Oh noes!1

By combining art and science, I have discovered a way to make heads explode.

:D

I happen to look forward to your posts OC. Many times do I read them, yet refrain from responding. I don't want to interrupt what I often find to be entertaining discourse. ;)

[saltpoint]

100. Combining art & science is JUST what the Right fears. I mean, it really

is frightened of either scientists or artists, let alone both.

You've got that Delta alchemy cranked up full tilt.

They didn't like Galileo, they don't like the stem cell researchers, they didn't like Caravaggio, and they didn't like Mapplethorpe and Nina Simone.

They especially didn't care for the PISS CHRIST.

Stiff-backed authority doesn't like the nimble-minded imaginists dancing blue rings around the palace. And why are the King's daughters all sighing on the balcony over that damned traveling minstrel, anyway?

If Caravaggio used street hustlers and whores from the taverns to pose as religious figures, he exposes the Church's hypocrisy. And we can't have THAT.

If the stem cell scientists start poking around with the notion of sustaining Life in all things from sheep to people, then the authority to interpret and wield Infinity shifts from the Church fat cats to the common man and woman. Can't have THAT either.

If we let lesbians and gay men have sex, who's going to make enough babies to buy toothpaste, Buick, and Saran Wrap? Things go better with Coke, and by 'things,' I think the advertisers mean heterosexual unions.

Above all, they can't let women be priests. That turns power and influence over to people who have uteruses, and we can't have THAT at all.

Etc.

You pursue both paths. Yep -- that's a formula for head-exploding to be sure.

[Swamp Rat]

101. Piss Christ + Particle Theory + Prokofiev + Progressive Politics =

:nuke: :nuke:

I hope you are enjoying yourself as much as I. :D

[saltpoint]

117. Swamp Rat, the images you post on DU slap me in public, which I'm

citing as a good thing.

From this one I'm getting a Native American, but not a true one, and instead one that perhaps a sports team has co-opted for its brand logo. McCain's state is rich in Native American culture, not that he would ever embrace it as self-definitional.

It reminds me that he may be chronologically advanced, but that he has never evolved as a grown-up. May he be haunted by the ghosts of the lost Apaches.

And in the meanwhile, thank you for the top-drawer face-slaps. They're bracing and necessary.

[eridani]

104. They were OK with MILK CHRIST though

The artist had a whole bodily fluids series--seems to have been taking that INCARNATION theme seriously.

[saltpoint]

116. Well, there ya go -- that's the trouble with those damn artists -- always

engaging ideas to their maximum expression. It's dangerous, and they should be punished!

I wonder if some of them even KNEW about the MILK CHRIST. Or if they saw it, if they would get it. Hard to tell.

[cliffordu]

99. Platitudes??

Old dogs??

How about:

When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

OR....

If McCain gets elected, Where can I send your coat hang wire??

[ima_sinnic]

111. exccellent point about Moseley-Braun, where were these hypocritical "feminists" then? (nt)

[saltpoint]

119. And there was a true dignity to the woman that Koppel and other

media talking heads refused to acknowledge, let alone honor.

Moseley-Braun and our eventual nominee, John Kerry, did not agree on every single thing, but I watched their behavior around each other during those debates and saw two adults, treating each other with dignity and respect.

It impressed me very much.

[Swamp Rat]

123. kick, for this post.

:kick:

"Moseley-Braun and our eventual nominee, John Kerry, did not agree on every single thing, but I watched their behavior around each other during those debates and saw two adults, treating each other with dignity and respect." :applause:

[Hippo_Tron]

108. Look Evergreen, I won't ignore that there were incidents of misogyny in the media

But I think you would be hard pressed to make a case that sexism was the reason she lost the nomination. Obama just got trounced in West Virginia. I'm sure there were some racists voting for Clinton. But I don't think for a second that I could argue that he lost the state due to racism.

[saltpoint]

11. HClinton's campaign might have been far more resonant had she

embraced language as an essential tool in advancing it.

Absent the deep-bones crowd-arousing muscle of John Edwards and absent the genuine pure history-making talent of Obama's oratory, the Clinton team still had plenty of money early on to hire speech writers to skillfully promote the idea of her candidacy.

Instead she publicly ridiculed her opponents' gifts and was left -- as I've posted here before -- buck naked in the big lobby with no ride home.

[cboy4]

13. You do realize Obama will need every last vote to beat

John McCain, right?

As horrible of a candidate as McCain is, Obama will still need to scrape together every possible vote if he has a chance of winning.

It will be that razor close.

It's why asshole posts like this are ridiculous. :thumbsdown:

[ProSense]

14. What the hell does that have to do with the OP? "It's why asshole posts like this are ridiculous."

No, it's "asshole" comments like this one that make me continue to scratch my head.

[quantass]

23. Agreed!

[cboy4]

32. I can completely understand why you consider what I

wrote an "asshole" comment because I chewed your ass out for gloating and you're pissed.

It's clear that Obama is going to be the nominee, yet a-holes like yourself can't stop from attempting to be divisive by attempting to crush fellow Democrats in a hurtful and a bullying manner.

We can read this bullshit over at Free Republic. :thumbdown:

[quantass]

21. He beat the best Branded, most well-funded campaign in history ... Something tells me he is on the

right track....

Honestly, you sound like the type of person who back in January you would have said Gulliani and Hillary were the presumptive nominees and primaries were just padding time.

[cboy4]

34. What the fuck are you talking about? Thanks in advance for

clearing up your drunken "comment."

[mkultra]

73. actually i dont and its not true

If you think that we must take crap from Hillary supporters just because we may need your votes your wrong and we wont. This kind of mentality is why Hillary lost. Ill stand my ground and be decent with anyone whos willing but if you like fight, then we'll give you fight.

[QC]

118. No. They do not realize that.

This has been another in the series "Simple Answers to Simple Questions."

[Catchawave]

15. Is it still necessary to pile on Hillary here....

with RW talking points :shrug:

It's getting tiring.

[ProSense]

16. Where are the RW talking points? Is the primary over? Are her supporters

making BS arguments, protests, organizing against Obama?

Deal with it.

[Catchawave]

18. Like Obama's supporters organize against her?

Where's the effing unity? Ya'll claim "victory", so why are you so worried about what other supporter groups think of your candidate?

Your letter to her supporters is a POS, deal with it.

[ProSense]

20. Where's Obama's whining protest brigade? "Your letter to her supporters is a POS, deal with it"

Obviously, you can't.

[Erin Elizabeth]

43. Is she still in the race?

Yes?

Then she's fair game and she knows it.

[saltpoint]

87. TIME magazine, not noted for his cult-like proclivities, is offering

a similar piece on the same subject in the current issue.

Are you going to write to their editors and accuse their magazine of being a piece of shit as well?

She lost, Catchawave. She ran a poor campaign on several wrong assuptions and made bad steps all along the path.

No math supports her claim to legitimacy at this point.

Yet there she is, still in the race. If she's still in the race, she's fair game.

The unity theme is in HER court now.

[saltpoint]

17. We have heard no real praise from Sen. Clinton for any of her 7

original Democratic opponents.

We have heard in fact just the opposite.

Words don't count.

Just a speech.

Only where he is because he's black.

McCain is so very patriotic.

And many more, Catchawave, which as an outstanding Democratic loyalist would, in other circumstances, acknowledge and oppose.

[Catchawave]

26. Are you calling me a Republican for not agreeing with this

POS thread referencing one of BIGGEST HILLARY HATING DIARISTS AT DKOS?

Step away from the kool aid m'dear.

[ProSense]

28. Where is the hate in the diary? I see only facts. Can you refute any of them? n/t

[saltpoint]

82. Gave up powdered drinks some many decades ago.

No, I wasn't.

Your misread.

[Catherina]

36. Those aren't RW talking points. 2008 is a continuation of 2004

when we were killed by the media's coverage of the Dean scream. In 2008 they thought the Wright scream would work but people aren't falling for it. People don't want the DLC or its candidates. Hillary lined up with them and she lost.

[eridani]

105. I don't agree. Dean lost Iowa because his ground game was wrong

He had the internet half of it right, though. Obama has melded ground game and nontraditional media seamlessly. That's what's different this time, though it's true none of it could have happened without Dean's 2004 beta test.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

52. ProSense Is A One Trick Pony. That's All They've Got.

[ProSense]

59. Ran out of rational arguments a long time ago, huh? n/t

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

62. Yes, Indeed You Did. Thanks For The Agreement. Like I Said: One Trick Pony.

[bahrbearian]

71. "Thats what you are but what am I"

"Thats what you are but what am I" "Thats what you are but what am I" "Thats what you are but what am I" "Lalala Lalala I can't hear you" "Lalala Lalala I can't hear you" "Lalala Lalala I can't hear you" Leave the Playground Please.

[jonestonesusa]

90. I disagree entirely with your characterization of Prosense.

Prosense, in fact, has consistently offered links to articles in news sources and blogs on many aspects of the campaign. If this is a one-trick pony, I'll take that trick over the agitated one liners that pass for logic among the Hillary dead-enders. The campaign for the nomination isn't over till Hillary is defeated, and as of yet Obama has not received the requisite number of delegates, though he is quite likely to.

Meanwhile, I am always eager to hear more news from Prosense and thoughtful reasons to support Clinton in the unlikely event she wins, if her supporters would care to post them. But I'm fully turned off by her mismanaged, negative, and flat broke campaign. Till I am convinced otherwise by reasoning and facts, that's my view.

[mkultra]

74. from the post it looks liek hes a 10 trick pony.

All you have is contrariness and acrimony.(thats two tricks)

[Tommy_Carcetti]

19. All this is part of your "Divide and Lose" strategy?

Me no get.

[Lilith Velkor]

75. Sore Winner Syndrome

Do not want.

[Saturday]

22. Keep beating on us ProSense. You do so much to unite us. *sarcasm* nt

[quantass]

24. Tough love tends to usually be the best perscription in times like these

[Saturday]

30. This isn't tough love, this is beating someone when they're down.nt

[ProSense]

35. No it isn't, it's pointing out the flawed arguments of ankle biters who are making a lot of noise

as Hillary's campaign makes a less than gracious exit.

Edited to add: ankle biters

[ProSense]

25. Not my job, I don't do threats, self-pity, BS. Deal with reality, it helps.

If you have nothing to counter the arguments in the OP, save your comments trying to turn this into a indictment of me. I could not care less.

[Saturday]

29. I know you don't care. You're bitter and your posts are getting boring

because if you can't bash Hillary or her supporters you have nothing to say. Right, it's not your job to unite us, it's your job to keep pounding on us. We understand. You're an Obama supporter who wants to destroy the Democratic party so you can prove that you were right.

[ProSense]

31. You're attracted by "boring"? Nothing you say changes the fact that Hillary ran a lousy campaign

and isn't losing because of sexism. If that bores you, ignore the thread.

[LeFleur1]

37. Not Getting It

You assert that Hillary isn't "losing" because of sexism. Since the media spewed a constant barage of sexist statements, that is arguable BUT,
It's the disrespect for her gender, stupid.
She was disrespected because of her GENDER. That's what has her supporters disgusted.
Disagreeing with someone on issues is one thing. Attacking a person because of their gender is quite another.

[ProSense]

38. "She was disrespected because of her GENDER. That's what has her supporters disgusted."

Has nothing to do with why she's losing.

"Disagreeing with someone on issues is one thing. Attacking a person because of their gender is quite another."

What does that have to do with the argument in the OP, which is that she is losing for specific reasons unrelated to sexism (see OP)?

[LeFleur1]

39. I'll Try To Make It More Clear

If the media and bloggers had done a racist number on Obama, calling him the n word and other blatantly racist words or sayings nearly every day, it wouldn't matter if he were winning or losing. It would just be wrong, and would, I hope, be denounced by Democrats everywhere.
Does that make it any clearer?

Each individual has to decide which candidate they believe would be able to do the job of President for this country.
There should be no room for sexist or racist statements in the campaign.

And what it has to do with the OP is that maybe, just maybe, none of those things matter if we haven't moved beyond sexism and racism during campaigns for the nomination of a candidate for office.

[ProSense]

40. "If the media and bloggers had done a racist number on Obama," Are you serious?

"Bitch is the new black"

Hillary ran a gender- and race-baiting campaign.

[DangerousRhythm]

50. I'd like to add, regarding the question in your subject line...

"Is he really black enough?"

How long did we hear THAT one in all its disgusting varieties? I think that meme finally died when they trotted out the Rev. Wright footage in earnest. All of a sudden, he became black enough, and probably "way too black" for some sad people in this country. There's been racism AND sexism at play for this whole campaign season so far and I almost feel as if some are pushing the "my pain matters more" idea, as if it's some sort of contest to see who's been most beaten down and disenfranchised, when we've both been there in different ways. It's becoming destructive to the GE... we need to get on with this, stop the fighting and sniping on both sides, come together and BEAT the REPUBLICANS! They WANT us to fight because they really have nothing this year. Their party is in shambles and they'd love nothing more than to see us eating our own, tearing ourselves down to their level. Let's not play into their hands. It pains me to see fellow Democrats giving the perpetrators of racism and sexism the time of day, as in going on FOX News shows. I don't know, this whole thing between Hillary and Obama supporters is just getting me down lately, and it seems like no matter who winds up with the nomination, it'd feel like a hollow victory because it got so damned ugly in getting there. Sorry for the rant, but maybe, once some of the smoke clears, I'll regain some of the optimism I had when I signed up here. For now, this stuff is really wearing me out.

[eridani]

106. Nope. I disrespected her for voting for IWR and cluster bombs

Also for hiring a shitstain sociopath like Mark Penn.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[paulk]

41. Change! Hope! Unity!

:rofl:

[ProSense]

44. Are you laughing because, like Hillary, you're against those goals?

Let me take a stab at your next response: Hillary, unlike Obama, wasn't running a campaign emphasizing "Change! Hope! Unity!"

[paulk]

49. Hate! Hate! Hate!

that's all you've got...

[ProSense]

56. Facts! Facts! Facts!

Embrace them.

[paulk]

80. well, if you count Obama as a "progressive" in your "facts"

it's pretty clear that you don't have a clue. Obama is no progressive. He's even to the right of Hillary on several key issues.

school vouchers, healthcare, tort reform, energy.

[ProSense]

81. Are you going to cite that bogus organization that gave Hillary and

Sen. Casey 100% scores as progressives?

Cluster bombs, not progressive. Gas tax, pretty damn stupid.

Hillary lost, priceless.





edited typo.

[jonestonesusa]

91. I'd invite you to look at Obama's stances and ratings before you

label him a moderate or conservative Democrat.

Here are some organizations that have scored his voting record recently:

League of Conservation Voters (100%)
Genocide Intervention Network ("A" Rating)
Americans for Democratic Action (100%)
Planned Parenthood (100% - plus the NARAL endorsement)
American Civil Liberties Union (83%)

These numbers are all from a single site (http://people.howstuffworks.com/barack-obama3.htm)
but it's easy to find other locations for this information, including the original organizations if you want to confirm them.

I did not look at the specific issues, but Clinton is certainly to the right of Obama in voting for the Iraq War, voting to saber-rattle against Iran, and in her willingness to play the Southern Strategy to win an election.

Anyway - before you conclude that Obama is "not a progressive," embrace the facts. Good advice from Prosense. Or, better yet, point us to the articles and other evidence that shows Obama's conservative stances. If you do that, you might find an ally in me. I _want_ my reasoning to be challenged so I can be better informed. But I'm not down with empty claims.

[paulk]

115. links

tort reform -

http://www.moveleft.com/moveleft_essay_2005_02_14_greed_gone_wild_tort_reform_victory_for_george_w._bush_defeat_for_ordinary_americans_re_class_action_lawsuits.asp

Bush/Cheney Energy Bill -

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/17/us/politics/17cadbox.html

school vouchers -

http://nyceducator.com/2008/02/obama-supports-vouchers.html

healthcare mandates

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/07/opinion/07krugman.html

-------------------------


I find the "Hillary voted for IWR/Barrack didn't" argument to be the most hollow pro-Obama argument of all. Obama has not taken any kind of anti Iraq leadership position since his elevation to the Senate. He has done nothing to convince me that his anti war credentials extend any farther than a speech he gave when he was still in the Illinois State Senate - a politically safe place to give an anti war speech from. Nothing he has done since then shows me that he wouldn't have voted the same way as every other Democratic Senator running for President did these last two election cycles.

As for Kyle/Lieberman - Obama sat that one out, something he has shown a real propensity for doing when it comes to potentially defining issues.

Clinton's "southern strategy" - that all depends on your POV, I suppose. I've been less than happy with what I've seen from the Obama campaign in regards to race baiting.

[jonestonesusa]

120. Thanks for the link - a quick reply...

I read through the links. I would definitely agree with you on the more conservative position Obama took on tort reform and energy bill votes. The article does mention that he's moved away from that position in recent statements, and I have heard elsewhere also that his position on subsidizing ethanol is changing due to concerns about the food prices. I think that is a genuine change in position, though I agree with you that it was a wrong vote on the whole bill.

On school vouchers - as a former public school teacher myself, I can understand the teacher's union position on vouchers, though I do not disagree with a position that says look at research as a basis for making the decision. It's a sacred cow for many of us in education to consider any approaches other than fully funding public schools as currently structured. I think that Obama's statement was the right amount of prudence, to suggest that strong teachers should be rewarded (I think they should be - they are to some extent in post-secondary educational settings) but that a systemic move toward vouchers should also not be done. I have not yet seen vouchers in action in Milwaukee - I live in Western Wisconsin - but it intrigues me that the black community in Milwaukee supports vouchers. So I probably lean a little closer to his sentiment on that issue.

Health care mandates versus optional system - I won't try to get into this now much, but I do support single payer. However, it seems like a question of system change vs. incrementalism, real vs. ideal politics. I'm usually about half convinced by Paul Krugman's analysis, so I don't know if I'd take his assessment at face value. I think for this issue we have to see what is actually proposed and how it is guided through Congress. Is it better to ask for the paradigm shift first or to ask for something that is likely to pass but only addresses some, not all, of the problems? Again, since I think that Obama is a better politician, I have more trust in his ability to get significant legislation passed as we move towards single payer.

Briefly, on the IWR - I do not agree that this is a hollow issue, and Obama's voting record on war funding, timetables, etc. is, at minimum, the equal of Clinton's. I think he's had a positive role in working for legislation on anti-nuclear smuggling legislation and restricting the use of torture. Actually, I thought hard about supporting Edwards this time because I appreciated his emphasis on pocketbook issues, but I do not want the supposedly anti-war party (the Democrats) to nominate two candidates in a row who voted for the war. We don't know of course what Obama's vote would have been on the IWR because it's a what if, but from hearing him speaking and looking at his Senate record so far, he clearly takes no relish in bellicose stances on an issue like this. I also think that the noise he is making on greater diplomatic initiatives with rogue states is a potential paradigm shift in foreign relations. And I also think you understate the political risk involved in speaking up in clear terms against the war in 2002, at a moment when a vast majority of the public was coming around to support the war. If Hillary Clinton had done that, the course of history would have been changed.

There's not much to say quickly about race-baiting, especially if it's in play to appeal in West Virginia to "hardworking voters, white voters" or to say Obama is lucky this election to be black. But if all that has been said from many Democratic quarters about this isn't convincing to you, I will not be either. I don't buy the Obama race-baiting as much in part because he has way more to lose by doing it than gain since his method is generally to appear as a race "transcendent" candidate, and also because I don't find it mysterious at all why Clinton has lost black support given a number of statements by herself and her surrogates. Actually, as much as I disagree with Shelby Steele about most political topics, his view of the difference between candidates like Sharpton and Jackson (calling them something like "demanders") and Barack Obama ("negotiator") is more insightful than average in this season that could really use some savvy analysis of race and political behavior.

I also like the site created by Melissa Harris-Lacewell at Princeton for her discussions of race and the Obama campaign (http://www.melissaharrislacewell.com/).

That's it - I do appreciate the time you spent to get the links and start the dialogue.

[eridani]

107. No he isn't. But Kucinich and Edwards supporting progressives were out-organized by him.

[Window]

42. K/R.

:kick:

[bigtree]

45. I love being lectured down to from folks

what a refreshing change.

The lecturing and ridicule really is 'a new kind of politics'.

Impressive.

[ProSense]

46. It's not a lecture, it's a statement. Now, want to address the facts? n/t

[bigtree]

47. no, because it's a circular argument designed to serve as a bludgeon

. . . to be used against anyone who disagrees with you.

I say good for you for expressing your opinion here. Good luck with it, and, best of luck with your 'new politics'.

[ProSense]

48. Nothing circular about the argument: winning positions in column 1, losing in column 2

It's laid out for easy rebuttal.

[LisaM]

67. Yes, it's a lecture.

And it was the Obama campaign who injected race into the campaign, stood back, pretended to be above the fray, enjoyed the fireworks, and then accused Hillary of going negative.

[ProSense]

77. No, it's not a lecture, and

no it wasn't.

[shayes51]

57. Amen

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

51. Pure Ignorance Of Logic.

Fact is, at the end of the day, Obama and Hillary are almost identical. Any OP that tries to cast them with such stark differences of 'soul', does so with its roots in sheer ignorance.

[ProSense]

54. Your comment has nothing to do with the OP

"Fact is, at the end of the day, Obama and Hillary are almost identical."

That statement does apply to their position on the issues.

As for strategy and character, they are very different.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

58. Character? Nope.

They're pretty close in that department too.

Isn't that wool over your eyes starting to itch yet? Jesus.

[ProSense]

60. "They're pretty close in that department too." Want me to list Hillary's distortions

lies, comments from inside and outside her campaign calling her out on her divisive tactics?

No, they're not the same, but you see what you want to see.

[mkultra]

76. just like you

Hillary has zero character. she is morally bankrupt and a complete liar. again, much like you.

[eridani]

109. The candidate hiring a shitstain of a sociopath like Mark Penn has a more questionable character n/

[Phillycat]

53. You're right; we're just imagining it.

We should stop being so hysterical about everything. We should just calm down.

Can somebody make a bingo card up for this please? I want to see if I can win in 10 posts or fewer...

[ProSense]

55. There you go again,

dimissing someone pointing out the difference between Hillary and Obama's campaign as sexism.

[Phillycat]

61. Thank you! I forgot that one!

Got any more for me? I think there's a Bingo card generator online somewhere... Where is Maddy McCall? I bet she's got a whole bunch for me.

[moobu2]

63. “50-state strategy”? didn’t you mean 48 - state strategy?

[ima_sinnic]

113. guess you better work to vote out those state party leaders that disqualified those states

[havocmom]

64. Some HRC campaign insiders look at the failure

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5995887

Linked story:http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=f7a4a380-c4a4-4f84-b653-f252e8569915


Some gems from Clinton's own team:

"Not learning from the mistakes of Kerry and Gore, the campaign was based in the D.C. area, rooting its perspective in the fishbowl and echo chamber nature of the capital. And was overstaffed with hired guns with no real allegiance to HRC; she was the safest and easiest bet, no sacrifice necessary."

"Harold Ickes's encyclopedic understanding of the proportional delegate system was never operationalized into a field plan. The campaign inexplicably wrote off many states entirely, allowing Obama to create the lead of 100+ delegates that he has today. Most notably, we claimed the race would be over by February 5, but didn't devote any resources to the smaller states that day and in the weeks that followed, allowing Obama to easily run up margins and delegate counts on the cheap--the delegate margin he will win by."

"Probably our second biggest mistake was much more operational: Making our chief strategist our one and only pollster. It is impossible to disagree and have a counter view on message when the person creating the message is also the person testing the message."

Hate to tell the really dishonest HRC supporters, but WE did not cause her troubles. She and her team did that without our help. Our big sin was pointing out the problems. Attacks on people who point out the truth are a Rove trade mark and have little merit here among progressives and liberals. The people attacking you here are letting emotion rule over logic and honesty. I pity them that they have such heart break it makes them irrational.

[LisaM]

66. Sigh. The pretentiousness of the "open letter".

It really knows no bounds.

[ProSense]

69. What's pretentious about it? Point to and give evidence to support your disagreement. n/t

[BlackVelvet04]

68. Wow...I'VE SEEN THE LIGHT....

I imagined all of that sexism and bias. Nobody called Hillary a fucking whore...it was just a dream. Nobody accused her of "pimping" out her daughter...that was just a figment of my imagination.

GoBAMA.....hallelujah, you saved me from myself.

[ProSense]

70. Nobody accused Obama of anything.

This is all you can do is whine about off-the-wall comments? The OP is about strategic differences between the two campaigns.

[VotesForWomen]

78. we'll see how great O is in Nov when the MSM turns on him and people start paying attention. it may

become apparent that the emperor has no clothes.

[Forkboy]

79. Yeah, because no one has been paying attention yet.

:crazy:

[ProSense]

83. It's official, Hillary is delusional

A Blogger Call With Hillary Clinton: It's the Map Not the Math

We had a great blogger call with a very hoarse Hillary Clinton today. It was just for bloggers so she could thank us for our support.

She is staying in the race. She is ahead in the popular vote by 50,000 votes, counting Florida and Michigan which must be counted. She intends to continue to lead in the popular vote when June 3 comes around and everyone has voted.

The number one message: It's the map not the math. In addition to the popular vote, the electoral map shows her with a cushion and Obama with a deficit. She has won 311 electoral votes to Obama's 217. While a few of her's like Texas and Oklahoma will be a challenge in November, many of his states will be: Alaska, Idaho, Utah, to name a few.

more

A Conversation of Heart

BY TAYLOR MARSH

It was just between Hillary Clinton and bloggers who have her back.

I taped it for all of you so you could hear it for yourself.

Peter Daou introduces the call, which included bloggers who support Clinton, especially on getting the votes counted in Michigan and Florida. But invitations had absolutely nothing to do with blog clout or traffic. It was about talking to and thanking people, because we're all in this together. Clinton's appreciation is evident in every word exchanged. It reminds me of seeing her at the women's generation event in D.C. last week. When she came over, saw me, took my hands, then said, "Thank you. Thank you." That was the tone and message of the call from Clinton.

PODCAST: http://www.taylormarsh.com/podcast/mp3/stream.2008-05-16.134204.mp3">Senator Clinton Chats with Pro Hillary Bloggers

It's doubtful that anything surprised the insiders of the Clinton campaign more than the relationship Hillary has experienced with her online supporters, but especially the bloggers who have made the case for Clinton as time has passed.

We've got your back, Hillary. We're in it all the way.

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BzaDem]

102. Downballot as important as top-of-ballot? Do you know anything about American politics? Ugh.

[susankh4]

110. Thank you for discounting my experience of this primary season.

It's nice to be invisible. And unheard.

But... just remember... invisible people can't vote for your man...

any more than they can vote for their woman.

[JoFerret]

112. And you would know all about sexism.

of course.
Keep it up my friend.

[ProSense]

121. Probably more than you do. n/t

[JoFerret]

122. Certainly plenty of evidence

.

[Perry Logan]

114. Operation Turn Down: rejecting Obama

"Looks like Steve Corbett PA Radio host at wilk network has caught the attention of The DNC, yesterday Corbett launch Operation Turn Down campaign to let the DNC know that true Democrats where not voting for Obama. The phones lines lit up; calls came from state after state, blogger from a site called Confluence and others posted Corbett Operation Turn Down and the blog sphere was at a buzz. State after state voters calling and pledging they would under no circumstance vote for Obama this has to be the DNC nightmare. Operation Turn down continues Friday at 3 p.m. EST tune in folks this is going to be huge.
http://wilknetwork.com

[ProSense]

124. Who or what else can Hillary blame? She's already blamed

sexism, caucuses, big crowds, speeches, Democratic activists, cult of personality, first questions...