Obama in SD: "I believe in the second amendment"

[Renew Deal]

"I will never take away your right to bear arms." I'm glad he's being vocal on this issue.

[quantass]

1. Glad you made that clear! And Americans really love your guns!

your nation seems obsessed with them.

[PBS Poll-435]

4. Not obsessed. It is just one of those pesky things mentioned in our "Bill of Rights."

I am sure it is a lot like an American telling a Canadian, "Your nation seems obsessed with another nation's monarchs."

[cliffordu]

27. I need some aspirin. Apparently you and I are agreeing on stuff again...

I just love the Constitution. And the Bill 'o rights!!!!



:patriot:

Edit for speling (sic)

[msallied]

9. Um... isn't Canadian gun ownership isn't exactly paltry either.

[Cali_Democrat]

12. I think guns should be banned in America

And you're right, many Americans are obsessed with them. Mostly rural males who feel inadequate because they have a small penis or are otherwise inadequate in bed. They want to prove their manliness by firing a gun. I'm not kidding.

[krispos42]

14. Working hard to unify the Democatic Party, are we?

You know, the party that has a significant percentage of gun owners?


Lemme guess, you're also a Hillary supporter?

[Cali_Democrat]

16. I know the party has a significant percentage of gun owners

That doesn't mean I have to agree with them for the sake of unity. We're not supposed to agree on everything. Get a grip.

I am vehemently opposed to gun ownership. It's a plague on American society. Too many gun deaths.

[krispos42]

113. Yeah, except that people get really angry about this

And here's the thing. Getting rid of gun will stop gun deaths the same way that getting rid of green-painted cars will get rid of green-painted car deaths. This is besides any Constitutional or rights argument you or I could make.

I don't buy the BS from the Repubs when they say my rights have to be cancelled "to make us safer", and I don't buy it from the Dems when they say my rights have to be cancelled "to make us safer", either.

[weezy2736]

17. As much as I hate to admit it

out here in the boonies, things do operate a wee bit differently. I went to school in Perry County, Ohio, one of the bass-ackwerdest places on the face of the earth. Some of the things I saw growing up were... well, some people worship their guns a little less than Jesus and a little more than family.

So... no real reason to alienate anybody. I think (not completely sure) that the last democrat elected in Perry was a county engineer in the 1980's, and that was because he was the only engineer in the county. It gets real aggravating living out here, I've exploded several times as well.

[Straight Shooter]

20. Person to whom you're referring is assuredly NOT a Hillary supporter.

You don't spend much time in GDP, do you?

:hi:

[krispos42]

114. I probably shouldn't have said it.

I was getting ready for work and I was in a hurry, IIRC. First thing to come to mind.


It's just, dammit, there are much better ways, much more moral and liberal ways, to lower crime and homicides in this country than trying to take away hardware. Strengthening unions, repeal of globalization efforts, fighting poverty, some kind of drug legalization, better education, returning to a manufacturing society, clean energy, etc., will all do far more to lower crime and homicide rates than trying to disarm Americans.

If we make progress on our traditionally liberal ideals, we get a whole lot more than just focusing on this one non-traditional wedge-issue ideal!

[Straight Shooter]

119. I'm a gun owner, myself.*

I want stricter laws, but I agree with your assessment. We need to fight the disease, not the symptoms.

*non-clinging gun owner

[Two Americas]

26. a question

In rural areas, virtually every farming home has firearms. Even in the reddest of red counties, 40% or so of these people vote Democratic, and I have found them to be rock solid old school New Deal Dems, not the pale imitations we often find among the liberal culture warriors in the suburbs. I work with thousands of farmers, and the men seem to me to be quite masculine and virile, and more comfortable with their identity than many corporate cubicle rats are. Are you saying that they all are people "who feel inadequate because they have a small penis or are otherwise inadequate in bed. They want to prove their manliness by firing a gun?"

If a person chooses to farm, does that shrink their penis or make them bad lovers? Is that seriously what you are trying to say here?

Does it ever occur to Dem activists from urban areas that perhaps people are not so much voting for Republicans as they are voting against us? In this case, perhaps sane people would reject a so-called political platform that was based on speculation about the size of people's genitalia and that is why they vote the way they do, not because they are in love with their guns. They loathe us, and with good reason when they hear things such as what you just posted, much more than they love their guns.

[Leopolds Ghost]

100. "rock solid old school New Deal Dems, not the pale imitations we find in suburban liberals" Exactly.

[olkaz]

31. You also have no clue what you're talking about.

Seriously, either say that it's a cultural difference that you can't understand and don't support, or don't say anything.

Making those sorts of underhanded BS comments get us nowhere.

[cliffordu]

32. Nice. The only thing sillier than your obsession with

penis size is your mixing firearms with it....

I'm thinking you know nothing about firearms in 'Murka....

Ever had to butcher a hog for food?
Hunt a deer for food?
Put down a crippled horse?

Ever had to stick your great big throbbing .45 in some motherfuckers face as he started to come through the front door of your house??

I have. If and when you need a gun, it's better to have one than not. Accept no substitutes.

Other than that, I don't think about them. Don't try to take mine away.

[Cali_Democrat]

86. Put down a crippled horse?

Can't that be done without a gun :shrug:

[cliffordu]

87. I suppose there is.

I was on a farm. the vet an hour away. The horse was struck by a car.

I suppose he could have just run over the animal until it finally expired.....Or,

I suppose you could beat it to death with a hammer, or your fists, but I'd rather not see an animal suffer.

It was one of the worst days of my life.

[Mojorabbit]

34. I don't think you know

what you are talking about. From an armed progressive Dem woman who does not have a penis nor wants one.
I grew up with guns, am not afraid of them, know scads of people who own them and guess what? None of these law abiding citizens have ever shot anybody! And these are professional people, not rural males.

[Cali_Democrat]

88. Ya? Well there are also loads of gun murders every year

You may not know anyone who has shot anybody, but we have thousands of gun deaths every year. So yes, Americans kill other Americans with guns. We have the highest murder rate of any industrialized country by far.

Guns are a major problem and banning them is the only solution.

[cliffordu]

89. 40,000 people die in auto accidents every year, but you aren't

talking about slowing them down or making them safer or banning them....

[Cali_Democrat]

90. Cars are a necessity

Guns are NOT. Germany, Japan and many other industrialized nations seem to be doing just fine without them.

[cliffordu]

91. Move to Germany.

[Cali_Democrat]

92. No

I love my country. Why would I move away simply because I disagree with some of it's policies? That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. I'd rather stay here and fight for what I believe in. And I believe there is a culture of death and destruction in America that needs to be corrected. Banning guns will be a step in the right direction IMO.

[cliffordu]

93. I like your spunk.

Good luck with banning guns.

There isn't an army big enough in the world to do it. You'd have an armed insurrection the size of the Russian Revolution. (tens of?) millions killed.

Chaos. If it ever comes to that, the government trying to take the guns, I'll leave.

[Cali_Democrat]

95. "Good luck with banning guns"

Thank you. I will fight my heart out. This is something I strongly believe in. :patriot:

[hendo]

96. cars are not a necessity

We do have public transportation in this country. It may be in need of a major overhaul, but it does exist. Calling cars a necessity is just a rationalization, and a poor one at that.

[Cali_Democrat]

97. Until we have enough public transportation they are a necessity

Come out to LA and tell someone they could do without their car because of public transportation. :rofl:

How the hell am I going to get to work? There is clearly not enough public transportation.

It like this in many other cities also. I think we should have more public transportation, there is just not enough gov't spending on it. Our gov't would rather spend money dropping bombs on innocent Iraqis.

Until we get more adequate public transportation in America, cars are a necessity.

[hendo]

105. if people relied upon public transportation, there would be more of it.

Americans are just too into individual freedom and claiming that everything is a "God given right" to take some problems seriously.

[DangerousRhythm]

118. I'd love to rely on public transportation.

I'm from NYC, where you can get anywhere by bus and train, and I took advantage of it at every opportunity, every single day. Houston, TX is an entirely different story though. We have buses here within city limits and they really don't go where I need to go, not to mention the park 'n' rides are too far for me to walk to, so it's fairly difficult for me to support public transportation that doesn't help me get anywhere near where I am going. We have very limited light rail in the downtown area and I'd LOVE for them to expand that widely because it's wonderful, but it's just not happening at this time. Believe me, nothing would please me more than expansion of public transportation, but some cities just aren't designed as well as others and walking like the poster beneath me mentions just isn't an option at all, sadly. Houston suffers from insane sprawl and the further out you get the worse it is. It's just not as easy as your subject line implies in many places in this country. Just my two cents of course.

Oh, and regarding the actual subject of the original post, good for him. Some people have a false impression of him concerning guns, and he'll need to correct misconceptions to gain a few more votes here and there.

[Mojorabbit]

110. walk like they

do in other countries. n/t

[beevul]

111. The numbers...

There are some 13-ish thousand firearm homicides in America yearly.

There are some 280+ million privately owned firearms in the hands of 80+ million owners.


Why are they the problem, that thould have thier guns taken away?

[krispos42]

115. Okay, lets discuss this.

Our non-gun homicide rate (knives, clubs, bare hands, bare feet, etc.) is about the same as the TOTAL homicide rates of Western European countries like the UK, France, Spain, etc.

If guns were banned and the population disarmed, what percentage of deaths that would have been committed by firearm would instead by committed by "other"?

And how many more deaths would have occured that otherwise would have been prevented by an armed person?





And the comment I made about you being a Hillary supporter was inappropriate. I apologize.

[D-Sooner]

37. Lamest comment I've read all day

Seriously, you can do better than that hackneyed "small penis" cliche can't you?

[IsItJustMe]

51. I think pistols and automatic weapons should be banned. but there is a real case for rifles and shot

guns, especially for people that live in rural areas. I would dare say that some people still feed their families with the use of such guns in hunting.

[ileus]

60. LOL I suppose that's why people own SUV's also.

[thunderdog]

62. I didn't realize that you could OD on Cali_flower

You really should cut back on that stuff; for it impairing your ability to think clearly.

[msallied]

63. Ugh. It's viewpoints like this one that scare me about the Democratic Party.

Almost as much as the religious wackjobs of the GOP. Both sides, when you travel far enough to the left or right, love tyranny.

[cliffordu]

65. Excellent point

[msallied]

69. Likewise. I own a firearm and am without penis.

And firing one doesn't make me feel like I have one. It does, however, make me feel like an independent human being with the means to take care of herself in certain situations. Certainly if I had the time to learn Kung-Fu to take down intruders, I'd do it, but my .45 will just have to suffice.

[Cali_Democrat]

85. I don't love tyranny, I love my fellow Americans

and to see thousands killed every year because of gun violence is disturbing. Our country is a laughing stock among the other industrialized countries. Most other industrialized nations have strict gun laws and thus they don't have as much gun violence. Our laws are weak and feeble and gun violence is very prevalent. We need to tighten our laws IMO and ban guns all together. I'm tired of seeing murder and murder.

[hendo]

98. The problem is

if you ban guns, all the law abiding citizens will turn them in. Then only the criminals will have guns. That will sure be a safe society:eyes:

The problem that you anti-gun nuts don't realize is that criminals will still have quick and easy access to guns no matter how much you tighten up gun laws.

[Cali_Democrat]

99. How come other industrialized 1st world countries don't have that problem when they banned guns?

Their gun murder rates are much lower than ours.

[hendo]

106. that is a common misconception

Some countries that have a higher instance of gun ownership than the US have lower crime rates: http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/493636.html

As far as crime going down in other countries after gun bans, that has rarely been the case, and most of those countries already have low crime rates before the ban.

From USA Today - http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/2002/05/09/ncoppf.htm
"Around the world, from Australia to England, countries that have recently strengthened gun-control laws with the promise of lowering crime have instead seen violent crime soar. In the four years after the U.K. banned handguns in 1996, gun crime rose by an astounding 40%. Since Australia's 1996 laws banning most guns and making it a crime to use a gun defensively, armed robberies rose by 51%, unarmed robberies by 37%, assaults by 24% and kidnappings by 43%. While murders fell by 3%, manslaughter rose by 16%."

From the BBC - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/uk_news/1440764.stm
"A new study suggests the use of handguns in crime rose by 40% in the two years after the weapons were banned.

The research, commissioned by the Countryside Alliance's Campaign for Shooting, has concluded that existing laws are targeting legitimate users of firearms rather than criminals.

The ban on ownership of handguns was introduced in 1997 as a result of the Dunblane massacre, when Thomas Hamilton opened fire at a primary school leaving 16 children and their teacher dead.

But the report suggests that despite the restrictions on ownership the use of handguns in crime is rising.

The Centre for Defence Studies at Kings College in London, which carried out the research, said the number of crimes in which a handgun was reported increased from 2,648 in 1997/98 to 3,685 in 1999/2000."

Anything else you would like to discuss?

[krispos42]

116. Lots of good reasons

Strong social safety net, quality universal health care, good education, better jobs. Probably fewer two-income families, as well. More homogenous populations might be a factor as well.

Overall less desperation. Probably they have a harder time smuggling in illegal drugs as well, and they actually treat addicts instead of just tossing them in prison. A big chunk of homicides is gang-related, and nearly all murders are done by career criminals. We have the largest prison population in the world and a very large population of career criminals, so that makes a certain kind of sad sense.


Also, those Western European industrialized nations has their land devastated by two world wars. They saw death on an unprecedented scale in modern history. Two generations of the strongest and bravest men were decimated by war. In both cases the World Wars ended only after one side was finally bludgeoned into submission by force of arms.

The scars of the war lasted for years or decades, too.

I wonder if those effects also have something to do with it.

[Leopolds Ghost]

103. What I hate is tyranny. A principled pacifist would not use govt threat of arms to de-arm citizenry

And that is what the gun control extremist want to do. Give gov'ts an absolute monopoly on and unrestricted access to the use of force, to tell people how to live.

Just because I would never own a handgun (I would happily own a shotgun, and have) does not mean I want the gov't coming into people's bedrooms to get their guns.

Ironic, isn't it?

[Mags]

64. so where is the link that proves that rual males have a small penis

You great big city folk are fools of your own making. YOu look down on the folks that make up the hard working farmers and Country America and think you can prove your maniness by being arrogant. You have no idea what Rural America is all about, have you ever personally seen a cow, chicken? Do you know where your milk comes from?

[avenger64]

74. Yeah, they know where it comes from ...

... the supermarket. It gets there on a truck or something.

[hendo]

107. and prior to that it magically appears in bottles, seemingly out of nowhere...

:toast:

[mkultra]

83. sexist much?

actually, it has to do with justice and security. I don't own a gun but i respect the constitution.

Attempts to undermine the constitution are reaches for control by those who have small penises(or in your case, the smallest of all----none)

[Barrymores Ghost]

94. I respectfully disagree.

I think guns should be registered in America. I think guns should be secured within the home in America.

But "banned?"

Please, be realistic. Then, be sensitive to the countless millions of Democrats, like myself, who are conscientious and proud gun owners in America.

[Bread and Circus]

104. That's just stupid and culturally insensitive.

[anonymous171]

2. Me too.

The repugs will inevitably start their usual "he'll take away your guns" smears. Good thing Obama is addressing this now.

[PoliticalAmazon]

29. I like all of my constitutional rights, including the 2nd Amendment's....

The GOP acts like it has a lock on owning guns in America. I've owned one since I was 18 years old.

[thunderdog]

67. There aren't many of them left; however, the 2nd does provide the option

of getting them all back.

(I like options)

[Benhurst]

3. I wish he had said he believed in the others as well, including those

shredded by the so-called "Patriot" Act.

[krispos42]

5. Yes, but that is not the issue

Not really.


The question that have to be asked and answered are about what kind of guns and what kind of restricitons are there going to be?

It can be argued that a national ban on handguns does not take away the right to keep and bear arms.

It can be argued that a ban on semi-automatic rifles does not take away the right to keep and bear arms.

It can be argued that a ban on firearms arbitrarily designated 'assault weapons" does not take away the right to keep and bear arms.



So, what is he going to try to get Congress to do regarding guns, and what will Congress likely give him?

[ButterflyBlood]

6. Congress won't do anything

Too many pro-gun Democrats. So it's moot.

[krispos42]

11. But Congress will try to do something

Rep. McCarthy from NY introduced a new assault-weapons ban last year, HR1022, and got over 50 sponsors for it. The bill would entirely ban all semi-automatic firearms and give the Attorney General virtually unchecked power on determining what constituties an "assault weapon".

It's a wedge issue. It's an publicity issue. It a diversonary issue. Therefore, it won't die.

[ButterflyBlood]

109. And how far has that bill gotten?

I'll bet anything it's not getting a vote ever.

[krispos42]

117. Doesn't matter.

It's publicity. That's 52 Democrats that will be on the stump, pounding the podium from now until Election Day brandishing his or her anti-gun stance to a captive audience. It will be in the news, it will be on the Internet, it will be in the public eye.

[NeedleCast]

7. You're Right, it can be argued

but every time the Democrats make that argument, they get hosed, so it's best not to.

[krispos42]

13. Many people don't believe that

They believe the issue strengthens the Democratic Party.

They look at polls like this one:



And say "Hey, we're with the majority! We can't lose!"


What they don't, or won't, realize is the following:

One, that even in the poll mentioned above, support is declining, having dropped from 69 to 52% in just six years.

Two, about 40% of Americans own guns, and another few percentage points of the population have owned guns even if now they don't. So about 50% of the population does not own a gun and has never owned a gun, and therefore is very ill-informed about the laws governing the purchasing of firearms because they have never gone through the process themselves. Furthermore, they are likely to get their perceptions about buying a gun from the MainStream Media (and we know what a good job they do, right?), television shows, and movies. Since those perceptions are likely to be incorrect or outdated, they cannot be that well-informed about the topic. Look at the continuing misunderstandings about the so-called "gun-show looophole", which is a fictional creation like the "death tax" or the "partial-birth abortion".

[yodermon]

8. He addressed those points, right before making the comment quoted

in the OP. check the video/transcript.
It was really a nicely-rounded answer.

[msallied]

10. This is actually sort of an important issue to me, so I'm glad he's addressing it.

Not enough Americans really know his stance on this issue.

[CakeGrrl]

15. Republicans have been getting away with the false hyperbole for a long time

"The liberals want to take your guns away!"

I've been waiting for someone to finally explain that there's room to respect the 2nd Amendment yet still have reasonable gun laws that reduce gun deaths.

It's a shame that has to be so carefully explained, because it seems very basic to me that there is a middle ground, but it's taken this long for someone to debunk the Republican rhetoric. I wonder why that has been so difficult to do?

[hendo]

101. The problem is that it hasn't always been a false hyperbole

it would be great if Obama could get the NRA endorsement

[derby378]

18. Then let him prove it

From Obama today in SD:

I want to be absolutely clear about this – I will never take away the right of lawful gun owners to hunt and sport shooting, to protect their family. I recognize this is a traditional way of life in rural communities all across America, including my home state. I believe in the Second Amendment.

But his record speaks otherwise. This is Obama on the DC handgun ban:

The city of Chicago has gun laws, so does Washington, DC. The notion that somehow local jurisdictions can't initiate gun safety laws to deal with gang bangers and random shootings on the street isn't borne out by our Constitution.

Considering how Draconian DC gun law is, that quote makes me pause.

Back in 2000, he also cosponsored a bill in Illinois to restrict law-abiding civilians to one gun perchase per month.

In short, Obama still has some serious work to do. An endorsement from AHSA just won't cut it.

[anonymous171]

22. But does that mean he will take away your guns?

Sounds like he wants you to keep them to me.

[derby378]

25. Depends on the gun, I guess...

Last I heard, Obama isn't too keen on me legally owning any modern semi-automatic rifles.

[johnaries]

39. Why do you need a semi-auto? Is your aim that bad?

:P
:hi:

[anonymous171]

19. There goes wedge issue number 1.

Next is God. Then Gays.

[derby378]

21. Not so fast - see post #18

:eyes:

[DemGa]

23. "I will never take away your right to bear arms." - I had no idea Obama was that powerful

[anonymous171]

24. You know how the repugs do it: "MY OPPONENT WANTS TO TAKE YOUR GUNS AWAY!"

He's addressing the smear head-on.

[Carrieyazel]

47. He'd never be able to do THAT even if he wanted to.

The gun people are more clever than you think. They know its not about the basic right anymore, its about their right to use the 2nd amendment to stop any more strict regulation of firearms dead in their tracks, and any future banning of CERTAIN TYPES of guns, which Obama absolutely favors. They've got Obama caught in a ringer on this. The evidence that he once wanted to ban even pistols and revolvers is all right there in the open.

[RichardRay]

28. Now if ***SOMEONE**** could only figure out what the hell

the Second Amendment actually means and what that right actually is then we'd be all set. For those of you who bitch about 'grammar Nazis' please take note of the long term effect of the lack of a comma or two.

[beevul]

112. Its really not that difficult.

"Now if ***SOMEONE**** could only figure out what the hell the Second Amendment actually means and what that right actually is then we'd be all set."

One only need look to the bill of rights itself, specifically to its preamble:



"Congress OF THE United States
begun and held at the City of New York, on Wednesday
the Fourth of March, one thousand seven hundred and eighty nine.

THE Conventions of a number of the States having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best insure the beneficent ends of its institution"

http://billofrights.org/

The preamble makes clear, that the bill of rights is a laundry list of restrictions on governmental power. The meaning of the second amendment when read as such becomes crystal clear. The operqative restriction in it, is "shall not be infringed", which refers to the right of the people to keep and bear arms, because a well regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free state.


The "collective rights" business and that "well regulated militia" gobblygook that the gun ban lobby is always trying to peddle is...gobblygook.




On edit: I wanted to make clear that while this post is a reply to you, its really not "aimed" at you, if you get my meaning.

[avenger64]

30. Well, he's not above lying it seems ....

... take a look at these:

http://www.dailypaul.com/node/38069

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/04/obama-forgets-w.html

In addition, he's saying he supports the 2nd amendment, but favors the rights of municipalities to enforce their own gun laws (i.e. bans). That's contradictory and dishonest.

[Indenturedebtor]

38. Bullshit it's dishonest

Go peddle that to people of lesser intellect. Obama is a constitutionalist. Municipalities can enforce their own bans on certain types of weapons. He doesn't have to interfere with that. If it's a constitutional issue the courts will rule on it.

Do you think you should be able to own nuclear arms too?

Personally I'd like to see everything but hunting rifles banned. You can still defend a home with a hunting rifle... but it's harder to rob a liquor store with one. And it's harder for kids to shoot their brains out with one.

And get rid of the semi-auto. Might as well let people buy anthrax and hand grenades ffs.

[avenger64]

40. What?

"Municipalities can enforce their own bans on certain types of weapons."

Like handguns? In Chicago, you can't even own a handgun unless you have an FOID. And it's the murder capital of the midwest - a few weeks ago, there were 38 shootings on a weekend. They outlawed guns, and now only the outlaws have guns.

The right to keep and bear arms is constitutional. It is guaranteed by the constitution to all citizens. As a universal right, it can't be preempted by cities - that's the meaning of constitutional rights. What Obama is saying is thus contradictory.

From my cold dead hands, Senator Obama.

[anigbrowl]

57. So's the duty to serve in the militia

But somehow I suspect you won't be so excited about that.

[avenger64]

68. Depends on which militia, I guess ...

... ;-)

[anigbrowl]

71. The 2nd amendment says a 'well regulated militia'. Your own bedroom doesn't count as HQ.

We'll tell you where and when your presence will be required, you American hero, you.

[avenger64]

77. Hey, we got a little group in the neighborhood, and we're ...

... fairly well-regulated - we'll get some t-shirts to make it official.

[Carrieyazel]

43. The point is, why isn't Obama being up front on this?

Since its already out there, he should just come out and say, "Yes, I once favored a ban on all handguns." He did not tell the truth to Gibson at all. That debate footage is coming back to haunt him. And his statements today will be used by the NRA to show that he's not being all that sincere.

[avenger64]

46. Let me tell you, guns are the Gay Marriage of 2008....

... Obama has given so many contradictory statements, not to mention running down gun owners as 'bitter'. He's providing the GOP with the ammo (so to speak) to pick up swing votes in states like Ohio and Florida.

[Carrieyazel]

49. Yes, the national Dem gun control plank is such a loser, it needs to be junked.

Obama is so vulnerable on this, with his past positions and those recent statements. Its all going to come out soon, and the Obama campaign has no real response for it.

[anigbrowl]

58. Like the NRA is any bastion of sincerity

Can you see this man on the front page of 'America's First Freedom' (and why do they call the 2nd amendment the first freedom anyway?)

[avenger64]

61. No. he's a convicted felon ...

... and shouldn't have a gun.

Glock - 45 I think.

[anigbrowl]

73. Sorry, don't see anything in the 2nd amendment about that.

He's definitely one of the people, so he has the same 2nd amendment rights that you do.

[avenger64]

79. No, our code of law stipulates that you forfeit some rights ...

... when you're convicted. Gun ownership isn't the only one, btw - voting as well.

[anigbrowl]

81. And that code is subject to constitutional challenge.

I personally think that the abrogation of rights by convicted felons is one of the main flaws in American society. I don't see how you expect to rehabilitate someone as a full citizen if you terminate their right to vote indefinitely, but few felons have the money or enthusiasm to pursue such a challenge to regain their constitutional rights.

Yet again, someone mixes up the legal precedence of the constitution and the code.

[ShortnFiery]

41. No it's not. When you are talking about the Midwest especially, everyBODY hunts or helps clean-up

afterwords. It was part of my girl-hood in South Dakota to go out with my dad and older brothers to hunt quail or pheasants.

Hunting and gun collecting is part of OUR culture in the Midwest.

Obama knows that there's a PROFOUND difference between "rural" and "city" culture and attitudes regarding gun ownership.

That's not disingenuous, but realistically assessing your audience.

[avenger64]

42. The constitution makes no distinction between 'rural' and 'city'...

... it's pretty much that simple. See my post above - Chicago has the most restrictive gun laws in the country (besides D.C., murder capital of the mid-atlantic), and a few weeks ago they had 38 shootings in one weekend by gang-bangers.

Bad guys will get guns, and will carry them whether they're legal or not. People have the right to defend themselves. Welcome to America.

[anonymous171]

50. I thought constitutional obsessors LIKED "states rights"

[avenger64]

56. 'Constitutional obsessors'?

So you're against the founding document of our nation? You like it when Bush reserves the right to suspend Habeas Corpus in times of 'national emergencies', as he might define them? You like the 'no-fly' list they're using to target leftists who speak out against the administration?

And by the way, here is the exact phrase from the constitution:
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

Take a look at the phrase 'not delegated to the United States by the Constitution'. See, the right to keep and bear arms is delegated in such a way, via the second amendment. My argument stands.

[anigbrowl]

59. So, do tell us who your ideal Democratic candidate is from a 2nd amendment standpoint

Be specific.

[avenger64]

66. Well, Clinton hasn't lied about where she stands ...

... she favors an assault weapons ban, but certainly not a ban on all semi-automatics. And there were no new gun laws besides the AWB during the Clinton administration. Obama is scary - I really think the guy is a gun-grabber. Go back and look at the links I posted - he actually wants to cede authority to the fucking U.N. to regulate gun control here. The worst stereotype a right-wing talk show host could dream up.

Richardson is idea, but certainly Clinton is the better of the 2 choices left.

[anigbrowl]

75. Oh bullshit...the NRA has been whining about the AWB since it was passed

I have shitloads of NRA porn depicting Clinton as an evil harpy bent on confiscating my guns, so it must be true. Meanwhile, your assertion that Obama wants to cede authority to the UN is grade-A bullshit. Take it back to FreeRepublic.com or whatever rock you crawled out from under.

[avenger64]

78. I'm not a member of the NRA.

Just a gun-totin' Democrat. And I'm not the only one. Take a look at the link and refute it - calling it 'bullshit' is wishful thinking. He co-authored the bill. Sorry, bring reason or stay home, little fella.

[anigbrowl]

80. And I'm not hostile to guns

Your interpretation of what the bill Obama co-authored means is so far off the mark that I'm not willing to spend much time debunking it. In brief, it seeks to curtail the international trade in small arms, not to give the UN authority over gun sales at Wal Mart.

I don't own a gun at present, but it's not because of any philosophical objection to them. I enjoy a day out at the pistol range myself.

[IsItJustMe]

53. What up Rush?

[avenger64]

54. Wrong way of thinking, really ...

... Rush is in favor of the Patriot Act, and all-powerful government when it comes to fighting 'terrerists' or anyone else that stands in the way of the Big Mission. To give this issue over to the right is well, wrong.

I believe in freedom. How about you?

[DU GrovelBot]

33. ## DON'T DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##

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[Skittles]

82. Grovelbot is acting in a peculiar fashion

:o

[Carrieyazel]

35. They'll hit him on his voting record and his once-held stance on banning handguns

Al Gore said the same thing in 2000. "I will never take away your gun". He was still pilloried for his past statements and stances on guns, and his record is what a lot of the gun voters went with.

Obama has a very strict gun control record. It will be hit by the other side, and simply saying he believes in the 2nd amendment isn't going to keep the onslaught from coming.

[stillcool]

70. It looks like he doesn't have a Yes or No...

answer to gun control. Do you think it's a little too complicated for the average American to understand?

The Audacity of Hope, p.215 Oct 1, 2006
"I believe in keeping guns out of our inner cities, and that our leaders must say so in the face of the gun manfuacturer's lobby. "

Chicago Defender, Dec. 13, 1999
"Obama is proposing to make it a felony for a gun owner whose firearm was stolen from his residence which causes harm to another person if that weapon was not securely stored in that home.

He's proposing restricting gun purchases to one weapon a month and banning the sale of firearms at gun shows except for "antique" weapons. Obama is also proposing increasing the licensing fee to obtain a federal firearms license. ....

He's proposing that all federally licensed gun dealers sell firearms in a storefront and not from their homes while banning their business from being within five miles of a school or a park. He's also banning the sale of 'junk" handguns like the popular Saturday Night Specials."

http://www.sportsmenforobama.org/content/view/14/27/
2003 Independent Voters of Illinois – Independent Precinct Organization Questionnaire.
"35. Do you support legislation to ban the manufacture, sale and possession of
a. handguns?

While a complete ban on handguns is not politically practicable, I believe reasonable restrictions on the sale and possession of handguns are necessary to protect the public safety. In the Illinois Senate last year, I supported a package of bills to limit individual Illinoisans to purchasing one handgun a month; require all promoters and sellers at firearms shows to carry a state license; allow civil liability for death or injuries caused by handguns; and require FOID applicants to apply in person. I would support similar efforts at the federal level, including retaining the Brady Law.

b. assault weapons?

Yes.

c. ammunition for handguns and assault weapons?

I would support banning the sale of ammunition for assault weapons and limiting the sale of ammunition for handguns.

36. Do you support legislation
a. mandating background checks of purchasers of weapons at gun shows, through the internet and through print advertisements?

Yes.

b. increasing penalties for illegal resale of weapons?

Yes."

[ShortnFiery]

36. Excellent! My Brother in Sioux Falls should invite Obama out for Pheasant Season.

If you have NOT tasted Pheasant meat, you haven't lived ... HEAVEN!

*Make sure your hunting dogs use "a soft mouth" when they retrieve your game. :P :blush:



http://www.travelsd.com/hunting/PheasantHunting.asp
http://www.sdgfp.info/Wildlife/hunting/Pheasant/Index.htm

[Swamp Rat]

44. Just as long Dickhead doesn't come along.

:D

[Undercurrent]

45. I grew up with guns and hunting

I'm a older female who lives alone in a very rural area, and I own guns for protection. Even had to shoot a rabid raccoon once. Who knows what will happen in the future, but if I ever got very hungry I'd have a way to eat more than my garden veggies, and fruit from my trees.

And yes, I LOVE the Constitution, and so does Obama, unlike that slug in the White House now!

[Traction311]

48. If he believes in it he should stop violating it N/T

[publicatlarge]

52. How do you 'believe' in an amendment?

Does he/you mean 'support' it?

[stillcool]

55. He 'believes' in the right to bear arms...

He believes in the Constitution too..how weird is that?

[ElkHunter]

72. Count me in as another...

...urban gun owning Second Amendment Democrat. I've been in the labor movement for more than thirty years. During that time I've seen time and time again fellow union members who agree with us on nearly every issue but fear that the government will take their guns if they vote for a Democrat. For them, gun bans are akin to a ban on free speech. Obama made a good move. The quicker Democrats put the gun ban issue behind them, the better off we'll be.

[Paladin]

76. And In Return, He Gets An Assassination "Joke" From The NRA

Gotta love the gun nuts, including our resident cadre; real classy bunch.....

[anigbrowl]

84. And to the folk who say Obama's a gun-grabber...

has it ever occurred to you what an enormous ego you are displaying when you assert that a presidential candidate has a plan to confiscate your personal property? Not only has Obama repeatedly said he has no desire to go around confiscating people's guns (and his years as a teacher of constitutional law incline to believe he might actually have thought seriously about the 2nd amendment) - the guy doesn't even know you're alive but you're convinced he has a plot to deceive you so he can get his hands on your weapon.

More and more I'm coming to the conclusion that 2nd amendment politics are a thin cover for some kind of displaced penis anxiety.

We've wasted something like $1,000,000,000,000 (that's a million million!) in Iraq, our economy is in the toilet, people can't put food on the table and our planet it turning into shit, but you're worried the a guy who voted for legislation to PREVENT the government from confiscating people's firearms (as happened after hurricane Katrina) has a Secret Plan to take your guns away. Right...Obama voted to LIMIT the government's power to confiscate weapons in order to lull people into a false sense of security...so he could get the Scary United Nations to take them instead! Bwahahahahaha!

WTF is WRONG with you?!

[Leopolds Ghost]

102. As a liberal religious pacifist, I believe gun culture is a problem. Gun ownership is not.

The right to bear arms DOES ensure a well-armed citizenry, but I believe we need to go after the gun MANUFACTURERS who spend scads of money producing weapons whose only purpose is to take life. As a religious pacifist, I am against these weapons as a personal religious matter but NOT as a civic matter. The government should not have a monopoly on arms. I have enough of a problem with the government having a monopoly on the use of force in the first place -- all governments are basically gangs when you get down to it, gangs have ensured the stability of human civilization just like they do in starving inner cities. However I would no more illegalize guns then I would illegalize abortion just because I personally wouldn't want to have one. As an ethical matter, killing in self-defense and abortion are on the same plane for me.

I have NO problem with selective bans on certain types of guns in certain jurisdictions. The SCOTUS would be a fool not to note that exceptions have been made for certain arms whose only purpose is to terrorize inncent civilians.

I have NO problem whatsoever with hunting weapons. Oh, and I think target practice can be fun. I'm actually quite good at it -- but I wouldn't want to own a handgun because there can be only one intention for having it, and that is to kill another human being. I frankly am only good at target practice with inanimate objects, I couldn't bear to hunt except if I really needed to eat.

And registering firearm owners? Talk about "Big Brother"... and not designed to do anything about the real gun violence.

[barb162]

108. Whoopdedo. Wow, he believes in the Bill of Rights.

Gee, let's all send him ten thousand bucks each. BTW, it's pretty damned impossible to get rid of that Amendment, so he's really a great guy and all to say that. :sarcasm: