It just hit me: The difference between blacks voting for Obama vs Whites voting for Hillary

[theboss]

I'm thinking about Pat Buchanan's insanity the other night - which sadly has been regurgitated in water-downed fashion by a lot of people who should know better - that it is equally wrong for 90 percent of blacks to vote for Obama as it is for 70 percent of whites to vote for Hillary.

And I can't believe I was not able to articulate this before, because I am usually very brilliant.

The difference is simple: Black voters made a decision; many (and certainly not all) white voters did not.

Black voters obviously did not vote for Obama simply because he was black. How do I know this? Because polls from 2007 show Hillary winning the "black" vote. Obviously, over time, this changed dramatically. Still, there is little doubt that black voters - at the very least - considered voting for Hillary.

From CNN.com in Oct 2007:

Among black registered Democrats overall, Clinton had a 57 percent to 33 percent lead over Obama.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/10/17/poll.blacks.democrats/index.html

On the other hand, it is pretty evident that a large percentage of the vote in WV (Rich Rodriguez sucks!) was based on the premise that the voter would NEVER vote for a black man.

Therein lies the difference.

Thank you.

Have a nice day.

[anonymous171]

1. The difference lies in voting for someone and voting AGAINST someone.

[papau]

13. Obama portrayed Hill supporters as racist before SC , and the race card worked

[anonymous171]

15. No. Playing the race card would've been a horrible, horrible idea.

As we have seen in WV, racial polarization works only to the benefit of the majority (white) candidate.

[theboss]

16. Let's assume you are right and Obama tricked black voters...that means they changed their minds

And therein lies the point.

Obama could have proven that Hillary flew Rich Rodriguez' plan to Michigan...and WV was not going to vote for him. There is always going to be a decent-sized percentage of voters who simply cannot be persuaded to vote for a black man.

[AspenRose]

18. *giggle*

Have you considered therapy for your RickRod aversion? :rofl:

[theboss]

19. We did not burn all those couches in his honor to be betrayed like this

He can go to Hell. Straight to Hell.

[ekwhite]

65. Umm - he IS just a football coach, right?

Just checking :scared:

[hfojvt]

34. is that a fair characterization?

After all the Big Dawg tromped all over WV, maybe they just fell for his faux-Bubba charm. Plus, you said they always like incumbents.

[theboss]

39. What bothered me was the 7 percent for Edwards

That sent a HUGE message.

WV should have been a 60-40 type win for Hillary. The fact that Obama got 26 percent makes me think that 10-15 percent of the electorate was simply never going to vote for a black man.

[hfojvt]

40. 10-15% is a sizeable minority

but West Virginia bashers talk like it's 60-74%. There were 5 out of 600 in my county who caucused for Edwards. Maybe an anti-poverty message was stronger in WVA.

I am not sure if choosing Clinton over Obama shows that NEVER is the right word. Maybe not when two candidates are almost the same, but what about when there are significant differences? One trouble though is that McCain has been built up for almost a decade now as honest, a war hero, and a moderate.

[Yes We Did]

20. Wow, you're still here...

You need to stop with that b.s. It's not true, and eveyone knows it.

[moobu2]

28. Bingo!! And how quickly they forget

[unlawflcombatnt]

44. Exactly. And it's still working for him.

That's why Obama and his supporters keep playing the it.

[JoFerret]

58. You are falling into the error of thinking.

Specifically the error of thinking that any Obama supporter can ever be racist. Or indeed have any error whatever.
Tsk on you.

[Buzz Clik]

59. You'd be willing to back that up with some quotes and links, right?

I'd be real disappointed if you were simply repeating Bill Clinton's claims of "Who? Me?"

[sfaprog]

60. This is an outright slanderous lie

Again, love to see any kind of proof or link whatsoever to back up this baseless smearing of Obama. Just one.

I have a feeling I'll be waiting a while.

[Raineyb]

74. The Race card does not exist

We are not playing cards here.

Your candidate's deliberate dismissal of what is a loyal voting block is why she didn't get the black vote.

Your refusal to see that is ridiculous. Now if you insist on making a fool out of yourself no one can stop you but your inference that black people need someone to tell us when we've been insulted needs to be called out.

Clearly, you share your candidate's disrespect for the intellect of the black community. And frankly, it's bloody annoying. Do you have another tune or is that the only one you know?

Regards

[rove karl rove]

50. a BIG difference

I've never voted for a black man or for a woman of any color for POTUS, and that's not because not racism or sexism on my part.

[olkaz]

2. Well put.

And yes you are brilliant, and yes, RichRod sucks.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

3. African Americans have proved again and again and again that they *will* vote for a white candidate.

Other way? Not so much.

[TheDonkey]

12. *ding* *ding* *ding*

Now it seems that some politicians like Clinton would rather have us sit at the back of the bus because our votes are not helping them this time but I do not remember the cries of racism with AAs voted for the clinton's in 90% blocks.

[ekwhite]

67. Speaking of Rosa Parks...

Here is a quote from the WikiQuote article on Rosa Parks.

People always say that I didn't give up my seat because I was tired, but that isn't true. I was not tired physically, or no more tired than I usually was at the end of a working day. I was not old, although some people have an image of me as being old then. I was forty-two. No, the only tired I was, was tired of giving in.

I would say a lot of African Americans are "tired of giving in" to the Democratic party hierarchy that takes them for granted.

[sandnsea]

4. Black voters aren't boycotting the white candidate

White voters are boycotting the black candidate. That's the difference.

[theboss]

10. Here's a question: Does it really matter? John Kerry got 37 percent of white males

And could have won if a few things had gone his way.

Can Obama at least maintain that dismal number while adding unprecdented support among African Americans and young voters?

[sandnsea]

27. I'm referring to the racism aspect

People like Pat Buchanan keep trying to compare black voters for Obama to white voters for Hillary. It's completely different and they shouldn't get away with making that comparison.

As to the GE, yes, white people vote Republican and that would be a problem for any Democrat. I think Obama can talk about our policies in a different way and eventually reach more people. I don't think he could fight Hillary the same way he could fight Republicans.

[ekwhite]

66. Even if African-American voters WERE voting for Obama because he is black

Is that necessarily racist or horrible? Did anyone criticize Italians for voting for Guiliani, or Mormons for voting for Romney (other than the evil of voting for any Republican). Hell, was any Irish-American a bigot for voting for Kennedy? Why should African-Americans be called bigots or racists for doing something any other ethnic group does?

The fact that this question even comes up shows the racist character of our country. The black vs. white divide is a huge festering sore that needs to be cleansed and treated. That is why a speech like Obama's about race was so important. America has never confessed it's original sin - racism. That sin continues to weigh us down.

[AspenRose]

5. Well, duh

;-)

HRC had the black vote sewn up until SC.

[Swamp Rat]

6. k&r

[The_Casual_Observer]

7. "I am usually very brilliant"

& your argument makes absolutely no sense at all.

[theboss]

8. What's wrong with it?

Blacks will vote for white candidates and have in huge numbers.

A lot of white voters simply will not vote for black candidates.

It's the difference between thinking and reacting.

[Terran]

17. It makes perfect sense

although your reply is identical to others I've seen here when this topic comes up.

"This idea is stupid because blacks never HAD a black candidate to vote for before! So OF COURSE they all voted for white candidates!" (paraphrased)

The point is, Sparky, that black voters have demonstrated for decades now that they are NIOT racist when it comes to voting; if they were, they simply would not have voted rather than choose between white candidates. However, a lot of white voters this time around have amply demonstrated that they ARE being racist when they refuse to vote for Obama.

[The_Casual_Observer]

24. Sparky, you can play it any way you want to & try real hard to make it

"the truth".

[Terran]

42. LOL

Great non-answer.

[CatsDogsBabies]

21. I think it makes sense

If Arican AMericans were voting for Obama just because he is African American, then there shouldn't have been any major changes in his support among African Americans.

[The_Casual_Observer]

25. Of course you do.

[theboss]

29. I still want to know specifically what I said that was wrong

"What did Neville Chamberlain do?"
"What did Neville Chamberlain do?"

[The_Casual_Observer]

31. Your guess as to why 90% vote for Obama is the same as anyone

else's, it's a pure guess regardless of your bias. The Obama crowd keeps bringing it up as if they need to convince everybody & never has any better argument than the last one that brings it up.

[theboss]

32. I'm not looking at motivations. I'm looking at movement.

Black voters clearly moved from Hillary to Obama. This is undeniable as she was winning 60 percent of the vote in late 2007.

There was never a moment when white voters in WV were considering Obama.

In fact, if you chart the polls in WV, there is no movement ever. Nothing changed them from 2007 until today.

[The_Casual_Observer]

36. She didn't win anything in 2007. Nobody even knew who Obama was

until late fall of 2007 when he began to make high profile speeches.

[theboss]

37. Exactly. Which is when black people said, "Good....We can vote for him"

Prior to that, they were more than happy to vote for the white lady over the black man.

[The_Casual_Observer]

41. So, now you're saying it's because he is black.

[theboss]

43. It's clearly a big factor

However, it was not a given.

You aren't going to trap me with some silly message board game.

[kitfalbo]

52. implication

Assuming you support the Pat Buchanan comparison. Is your assumption that blacks didn't know Obama was black until he made his speeches?

[EffieBlack]

55. Black voters didn't know much about him, but they certainly knew he was black

So, if they were voting for him only because he was black, they would have been behind him from the beginning.

They moved toward him away from Hillary, not because they suddenly woke up and said, "Wait a minute. What do you mean Hillary Clinton is white? And her husband is, too? You mean we've been voting for her husband all this time even though they're white? And I've been behind her up until now even though I'm racist and would NEVER vote for a white person?! Well, I guess I just can't vote this time since all of these people are white and I don't vote for white people. What's that you say? . . . That Obama fella is black? You're kidding?! Well, I'll be damned! I'm going to vote for HIM then!!!"

[EFerrari]

9. You are usually brilliant.

And doesn't it just crack you up that people are complaining that, lol, black voters are voting for Obama? Just like they voted for Gore and Kerry and oh, no! -- if a black voter takes pleasure in voting for Obama, THAT'S JUST WRONG! We CANNOT have black voters enjoying their choice. This is America and freedom isn't free.

:wtf:

[cui bono]

11. Yeah, and I love the shock that women are voting for him too, instead of the woman candidate.

[EFerrari]

14. I know. Women are supposed to be part of the Borg mind or something.

What is THAT? :shrug:

[CitizenLeft]

61. yep, that argument really pisses me off.

I voted for Carter, Mondale, Dukakis, Clinton, Clinton, Gore, Kerry. Happily. Without a single thought of "damn, I'm voting for a white man again?" Come on! But now that a viable, exciting, charismatic black candidate with an appealing message and a fresh approach has a chance to win the presidency - and many MANY white voters like him too - even Republicans - I'm supposed to NOT vote for him because he's black, because I'm black too? What the hell kind of lame-ass logic is that?

*smacks Pat Buchanan upside the head*

Edit to add: oh yeah, and I'm a woman too! :)

[Window]

22. Nicely put. I'm Black and cast my very first vote for JFK.

(Yes, I know, I'm dating myself. LOL!) This time around, I was for Edwards, Hillary and then Obama.

[theboss]

23. So...that makes you....wow .... 96 years old

Congratuluations.

(I kid....I kid)

[Window]

54. LOL! That's quite alright. Some mornings, though, yes...I feel like I'm 96.

But, most mornings, "I ain't no ways tired. I've come too far to give up now." LOL!

[ekwhite]

69. "I ain't no ways tired..."

:rofl: I almost expected her to break into a chorus of "Zippity-Doo-Da" up there when she made that speech. :rofl: The people in the audience must of been like the people in the audience for the opening act for "Springtime for Hitler" in The Producers... :wtf:


Oh, by the way, if you have never seen that classic scene - here's a link.

[Window]

76. Thank you for that. I hadn't seen it, but that scene was too funny.

I'm still :rofl:

[jsmirman]

26. When the fuck do smart people get to complain about being marginalized?

:rofl:


I think the other thing is the following- if you are a member of an historically unequal group, like, say women or black people, and you have a chance at your first nominee/president, I can't begrudge you voting for that person if that's how you feel. I think you should examine that candidate and make sure you still want to vote for them, but that's just me. It's got to seem like a very important moment. And so if women have absolutely insisted on voting for Hillary just because she's a woman earlier in this primary season, while I might have felt that they could choose a better flag bearer, I get it. Unfortunately, for her, there's these folks out there called black women, and they kind of fuck up her coalition a bit.

But just because it's reasonable to see something as an historical imperative doesn't make it acceptable to use that as an excuse to act like whiny, irrational assholes and support any and every sort of behavior out of your candidate. It doesn't make it right to continue to support that candidate in the face of complete and final defeat if by doing so you threaten so many causes that are important to not only all right thinking people in this country, but also, specifically, to your own ilk.

The behavior of some Hillary supporters though is damn near doing whatever is in your power to see a Klansman elected, if you're a black person and the black candidate has come up short in the non-black people hating party. Because make no mistake- a Republican victory will usher in a war on the rights of women.

[roseBudd]

30. Black voters have been voting straightt D for every white candidate witth a D after there name since

1964.

The whites who support HRC, many have never voted for anyone who is not white.

[VotesForWomen]

47. that was when it was D vs R, not white vs black. you do see the difference, don't you?

[ekwhite]

71. Rosebud, that is a bit broad brush

I am certain there must be Hillary Clinton supporters who voted for Jesse Jackson in 1984 and 1988, or who voted for Shirley Chisholm in 1972.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[dugggy]

35. Blacks changed from Hillary to Obama after they saw the

results Of Iowa and other early states. Once they
realized a black man can get white votes and is
electable, they started switching to Obama.

Before Iowa, many blacks had writen off Obama and
went to their 1st preference amongst all other white
candidates, which was Hillary.

[theboss]

38. Right. He wasn't Al Sharpton. He actually had a chance to win.

But they weren't going to "waste" their vote if he wasn't electable.

[Butch350]

75. This Black Boomer Did

I was going with Edwards until I saw a Black Candidate being taken seriously and like one said doing well
in IOWA. I looked up his political record and I was sold.

I don't support Obama because he is Black - but I support Obama because he is Black.

my .02 worth

[VotesForWomen]

45. not quite; but i'm making a mental note of yet another racism charge against hill supporters.

[VotesForWomen]

46. not quite; but i'm making a mental note of yet another racism charge against hill supporters.

[MyNameGoesHere]

48. And now you are brilliant?

You may want to do a recalculation on that one.

[theboss]

62. No, it's documented

I can prove it.

[ekwhite]

72. I see

I tend to look askance at someone who claims they are brilliant. Brilliant is an accolade that should be given to you by others.

[Hippo_Tron]

49. I think Hillary's white votes are seperated into five basic categories

1) People loyal to the Clinton name

2) People who want to see a woman President

3) People who think she would do the best job

4) People who aren't inherently racist but are easily fooled by Faux news playing Jeremiah Wright over and over again

5) People who are racist

My point is that we talk about "White working class votes" as though they are all racist or all think Obama is an elitist. I think her support among white voters, particularly blue collar voters, exists for a variety of reasons. And yes without a doubt some of them are racist. But racists would not vote for her or any other Democrat in the General Election.

[kitfalbo]

53. rose glasses?

You just state some of Hillary's voters are racists in your bullet points. Then state they won't vote for any other democrat in the general election. I doubt that group includes only rush's swing voters, as we've seen in WV and other states.

There are democratic racist voters who would vote for any other non colored democrat, maybe not a lot. I hope not a lot. But they exist.

[Hippo_Tron]

64. Most of those people have gone over to the GOP by now

There are people who voted for Bush last time that might consider voting Democratic this time if the candidate were white. But those people haven't been reliable Democrats in the past few years by any means.

[ekwhite]

73. I generally agree with that analysis

I would tend to put categories 4 and 5 together, though. I believe that racism is not inherent, but is the product of ignorance. The Jeremiah Wright thing was so potent because it plays into the "scary black man" theme so many racists believe.

[susankh4]

51. Us po white folk...

we don't make no decisions. No. Uh uh.

And we just loves us some broad brush attacks.

(What a bunch of BS. As if no Hillary supporter ever considered voting for Mr. Obama.....)

[JoFerret]

57. Yep. Astonishing prejudices being peddled all over.

Amazing.

[Orsino]

56. And yet we can't say how many votes were racist, or which.

Same goes for sexist. Just goes to show us the dangers of the broad brush.

[theboss]

63. I'm positive the 7 percent for Edwards is both racist and sexist

There is simply no other explanation.

[grantcart]

68. the other big difference is that for decades blacks have had no problem

voting for qualified white politicians who were advancing their self interests.

[Honeycombe8]

70. What's this? A thinking person? You're obviously in the wrong place!!!!!

;-)