It looks like race played a far bigger part in this primary

[gabeana]

than any percieved sexism, at least according to this article


"exit poll results from several states, including California, Arizona, Ohio, Pennsylvania and Indiana, all of which indicate that the margin of Clinton's victories in all of these was either equal to or smaller than the numbers of white voters who admitted that race was relevant to their vote, and then cast their votes for Clinton. In California, for example, Clinton beat Obama by 416,000 votes, but based on the percentages from the exit polls, there were 442,000 for whom race was important to their decision and who voted for Clinton. In Indiana, Clinton's margin of victory was only 19,000, but based on the exit poll there, nearly 100,000 whites voted for Hillary, because of race. In Ohio, Clinton won by 220,000 votes, but based on the exit polls, there were 246,000 whites who voted for Clinton at least in part for reasons of race."

"In other words, but for the votes of whites who were willing to admit that their votes were at least in part cast for racist reasons, she may well have lost all of those races, and the nomination battle would have been over far sooner. There is simply no way to interpret the vote of a white person who says "race matters to my vote" and then votes against the black candidate, other than as an act of racism, just as there is no way to interpret the vote of a man who says "gender matters to my vote" and then votes against the woman, other than as an act of sexism. When you consider the likelihood that far more whites voted against Obama for racial reasons than would be willing to admit it--a proposition bolstered by decades of research indicating that whites typically downplay their racial biases to pollsters--the relative importance of racism compared to sexism in this race becomes readily apparent"

http://counterpunch.org/wise05172008.html

[babylonsister]

1. That kind of puts to rest Clinton supporters claiming race has nothing

to do with anything, that Obama supporters are the racist ones. :eyes:

[gabeana]

2. Yeah but you know someone is going come back

that Obama black voters are racist? That their calling card

[rucky]

4. Ask them to explain how Hillary lost her 60% support over Obama among blacks.

going into Iowa.

[stillcool]

15. Pat Buchanan is doing his best...

Not surprising is it? Reverend Wright 24/7 for 3 weeks straight. All race all the time. It's getting old isn't it? Well, maybe not. I guess for some pimping racism never gets old.

[jbm]

3. people just aren't as aware of sexism..

People don't see reality. We see small parts of the whole, and our perceptions can be altered or formed by a thousand million different things. Racism was an issue in peoples minds, but we had falsely believed that sexism was on the decline. The vile treatment of Hillary Clinton this past year has shown otherwise, and it's disappointing to me that so many DUers have been willing and eager participants.

[gabeana]

5. So are you saying the sexism in this primary

was stronger than the racism against Obama. and at least according to this article those voters where gender mattered voted overwhelmingly for Clinton and where race mattered again voted overwhelmingly for Clinton, so where is this invisible sexism that is working against Hillary?

[jbm]

12. First, the sexism was not invisible..

Many members of the media, and the Democratic party felt entitled to treat her with a level of disdain and disrespect that would not have been socially acceptable had she been male. People just haven't been made aware of sexism in action lately, so most didn't recognize it for what it was. I have no idea what motivated voters to vote for either candidate. I'm just saying that because people are less aware of sexism right now, many didn't realize that their opinion of Hillary was being influenced by a prejudice.

[gabeana]

17. please give me examples of this sexism

because I don't remember being on the news cycle 24/7 like Rev. Wright, did you forget about that?

[jbm]

23. if sexism was obvious it wouldn't be tolerated

it's subtle, which makes it subjective. But that doesn't mean it isn't very real. Years from now my guess is historians will cite the political cartoons that make Hillary look a little worse than her male counterparts, the facial expressions on media people doing commentary, or the unneccessary add on criticisms from people like Ted Kennedy.

Read through any Hillary/Obama thread on DU and pretend one of our male condidates had done the exact same 'evil' thing that Hillary had done in that instance.

[gabeana]

29. wait because sexism is not "obvious"

maybe its not obvious because its not there as much as you think it is in this race. What we have seen and has been obvious in this race is overt racism, i.e Ohio, Penn, WV

and as for cartoons they all look "worse" shit they make Bush look like a monkey I don't mind and how about that Georgia guy selling Curious George t-shirts with Obama 2008 on it.

Thank God most Americans aren't bigots

[WinkyDink]

44. Rev. Wright's words were discussed, not his ethnicity .

NOBODY is going to come right out and attack HRC for something over which she has no control: her gender.

[babylonsister]

7. Maybe she earned that 'vile' treatment by her actions and it had

nothing to do with her gender. Think about it.

[jbm]

21. if Hillary had been male, would her actions have been 'vile'

or would they have been politics as usual? Think about that.

[babylonsister]

22. It wouldn't have mattered. She lost me when praising the rethug

candidate while dissing her Democratic competition. That isn't kosher, I don't care what sex you are.
She's behaved abominably imo.

[dkf]

26. So I guess I can't stand Bill's actions because of sexism right?

What a joke.

[Arugula Latte]

28. Aligning with McCain ... "Not a Muslim as far as I know; I'll take him at his word."

Vile.

Not to mention IWR vote ... Vile. That goes for men who voted for it, too.

[Higher Standard]

8. Agreed, to an extent

Certainly, there has been sexism present, but I also believe that, just as there have been those who were quick to point out racism where it wasn't necessarily present, there have been quite a few who have been willing to accuse others of sexism where it has not necessarily been there. A lot of it is subjective. People's views on both racism and sexism have been formed by their experiences, which are different for everyone. Unfortunately, rather than questioning and discussing, there has been far too much labeling. And it's when people start getting hit with labels that they decide to hit back and we start to lose all civility. It would have been a very different race if people had been a little more willing to talk to each other and a little less eager to start calling each other names.

[jbm]

14. welcome to DU, and I agree with your post..

I think it is an issue that deserves to be explored though. As Democrats, we should be the first to call ourselves out if we've slipped into discriminating behavior.

[Heather MC]

19. No way is sexism a greater problem than racism, I am a black female...

And my gender has never been a "negative" issue in my life. but when I lived in Kentucky for 2 years, people made sure to point out I was black. Once someone trued to run me off the road, I was walking. As they sped past me they scream "beat it N*gger" Yeah my being a lady wasn't the problem.

[lastliberalintexas]

43. I think racism is worse in every day life

I think sexism is worse in the workplace. The same men who would use racial epithets and not have anything to do with their black male coworkers out of the office/jobsite are still more likely to accept them as supervisors than females of any color. On the other hand, as a white female I don't have to worry about Driving While Black, either.

I'm not aware of any studies which bear my opinion out, it's just my belief based on personal observation, reading and discussions of that topic. I'd love to see any studies on that comparison, though.

[mrcheerful]

6. Well dah, on blogs with repukeilcan posters

I see "if Obama gets in then affirmative action will run rampant over whites seeking jobs" posts. The good old repukelican lie, job loss is because blacks get jobs better qualified whites should have got thus killing the white middle class. Plays well in hard hit economy areas such as michigan.

[TexasObserver]

9. it's a fact that Hillary's margin of victory in several states was racist whites

Many were actually Republicans trying to harm the Democratic party.

[NashVegas]

30. delete

[Elspeth]

10. If race played this much of a part in the Dem primary, the GE will be a lot worse.

Hold onto your hats. The Republicans don't have the same constraints as any of the Democrats.

[dsc]

11. Of course they didn't even ask about sexism

or for that matter ask black voters to what degree races was involved in their votes. Taking data from one side to argue a point is the dishonesty that Counterpunch routinely engages in.

[gabeana]

16. quit crying if you read the article

it states she didn't lose because of sexism.

get it through your head the only reason this race was as close as it was, was due to white racism and to some extent latino racism (Did you see that Latino Clinton supporter in Texas who wouldn't support Obama because he was black)
look at my earlier post I knew it was a matter of time a Hill supporter would bring up blacks voted obama whimpering, thanks for making my prophesy come true

[dsc]

24. if you don't bother asking voters about sexism

shock of shocks you don't find any evidence of it. Funny how that works. There was a gender disparity that was massive in many states Obama won. Under the standards you have been using that means sexism.

[gabeana]

31. Polls have asked people

did you vote on gender or race, overwhelmingly those voters chose Clinton, this is also touched on in this article.
face it Hillary got the support of the sexist and racist voting for her, just because she is women it is still sexist isn't it. And if Blacks voted for Obama because he's black I guess you can say that's racist but Hillary still wins the divise card because there are more women than blacks in this country.

[dsc]

36. funny how he supplies no numbers whatsoever for those polls

when he numbers for the others are so precise. Makes one wonder. Of course, totally left out of the equation are those votes gained for Obama by blacks who used races as a reason to decide for him. Even if one doesn't consider it racism (and I don't) it is relevent to whether racism hurt Obama more than sexism hurt Hillary. The article is also totally wrong about the number of states in which Hillary carried the white male vote. She lost it in many more than a few.

[gabeana]

37. where is your link on it

here some stuff from me to you

If Hillary doesn't get the nomination, this man said, he'd not only vote for but work for McCain, "and I hate McCain."

"Why not Obama?"

"He's too inexperienced."

"And why else?" a woman down the bar asked.

"Because he's black."

"Thank you!" she replied.

More talk, a little heat, and the man exclaimed, "I'm not going to vote for the nigger!"

Some in the bar seemed tensed; they were "undecided." The man goaded them; that's not what they had discussed the other day. He laughed. Another man from across the bar said he knew whom he wasn't voting for: "the nigger."

The first man continued to proclaim, "I love Hillary." He and a friend said she probably should take the VP spot if it were offered; even if Obama gets the nomination, "he's not going to make it." Later he apologized for saying "nigger"; "I'm not a racist."

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080317/wypijewski/2

It's also interesting to note that in Ohio, 1-in-5 Democratic voters said race was an important factor in making their decision. In that group, 8-in-10 voted for Hillary Clinton.

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/03/04/730736.aspx

One-fifth of white Ohio voters said race was an important issue to their vote, and those who did voted eight in 10 for Clinton. That compares with the one in five Democrats in Ohio who said gender was important, and they voted six in 10 for Clinton.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/03/05/economy_is_driving_issue_for_democrats_polls_show/

[dsc]

38. when only whites are asked

you will get only one side of the equation. I don't know why you are asking for a link. I quoted your article.

[gabeana]

39. you know since both of us as it goes for DU

are being rather civil, lets just agree to disagree

:toast:

[dsc]

40. sorry I forgot I mentioned the states

Every caucus state save Nevada, Iowa, New Mexico, and the states of Georgia and South Carolina are all places where she lost the white male vote to Obama. I think she also lost it in New Hampshire.

Here is the link to NH

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/primaries/results/epolls/index.html#NHDEM

You can find the rest at that site.

Given the overwhelmingly white nature of that electorate we know that a 6% loss among males necessitates a loss among white males.

[suston96]

13. There is a big difference between racial demographics and racism ...think!

The media - CNN and the rest - demographically break down the votes for statistical purposes and NOT to flag the racism of the voters.

Blacks turned out for Obama out of pride and hope that one of them will achieve the highest office on the planet. What's wrong with that?

In 1960 I voted for John Kennedy because he was Catholic. Does that make me a religious bigot?

In these primaries I voted for Hillary Clinton because she is a woman. I am a guy. Does that make me sexist?

If Obama wins the nomination I will vote for him because I want to share in the historical dramatics involving the election to the Presidency of the first black American.

What does that make me? Oh, I think I am white. I am checking my mitochondrial DNA. I may have descended from that cute black lady from East Africa - the Real Eve.......

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0373595/

[Kahuna]

18. Of course it did. And the Clintoons are the ones who made race the issue.

Women against blacks. Latinos against blacks. Jews against blacks. Then, poor people against blacks. It was her deliberate strategy to divide and conquer because she couldn't win on her own merits. She was a very flawed candidate with a lot of baggage so she divided the Democratic caucas for her own gain. What a disgrace she is as a woman, a senator and a Democrat.

[NashVegas]

25. "Hillary Clinton Doesn't Care About Black People"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEQV4K1eFjI&watch_response

[ej510]

32. They don't! Fuck the Clintons!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5oMw2mC7EE

[NashVegas]

34. Yeah. Tucker Really Called That One, Huh?

[OHdem10]

20. We knew all along Race would be a factor and will be a factor

in the GE.

While I understand the African American Pride in supporting Obama,
one has to realize there will be a reaction on the other side. Deeing
all blacks stick together makes some whites react on the other side.
This too is only one factor.

[NashVegas]

27. The Only Assumption That Can Be Made From Those Figures

In California, for example, is that twice as many of the people who admitted race was a factor in their decision voted for Clinton, over people who admitted race was a factor and voted for Obama.


The exit polls don't give us the breakdowns, by race, of people who said race mattered. Not that I've seen, anyway.

On edit -

Do you even look at the figures in the states where Obama won, where such data exists?

In Georgia, where Obama won, 27% of voters - over 1/4 - stated that race was a factor. 216k votes. Of those, 155k (72%) went to Obama.

In CT, 15% of voters said race was important. Of those, there was a 56% / 41% split FOR Obama.

In Delaware, where Obama won, of the 18% who said race was important, 59% went to Obama.

While it can certainly be said there were people voting against Obama because he's black, it can equally be said there are people who are voting for him for that same reason and it, too, is a factor.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[fortyfeetunder]

35. The white folks who won't vote for Obama because he is black

Are dead wrong -- he's not "black"

Sen Obama is biracial, and I think this little detail gets buried in the rhetoric.

His mother was a white American. These folks could even be related to her family.

[BlooInBloo]

41. White folks get to decide who's black. And Obama makes the cut.

It's not the way it should be, of course, but it's the way it is. At the moment.

[indimuse]

42. I keep asking where those SC ,GA, NC, etc..Polls are on the 99%...

AA...where's the poll...OH, That's right....WE don't NEED ONE!paleeeze!!!!

[Beacool]

45. How about 91% of AA voting for Obama????????

Of course, that has nothing to do with his race. No, no siree. It's only white people who are perceived as racists.