Someone Remind Me: In Which Democratic Primary Did we Not Count Caucuses?

[NeedleCast]

Hillary doesn't want to count caucus states in the popular vote. Okay. Where's the precedent in this? In what former Democratic primary races have there been candidates that suggested that we not count caucus states? More, if Hillary didn't want caucus states to count, why didn't she voice her position before the primaries started? Where was her opposition to caucus states during Bill's two successful campaigns?

If camp Hillary wants to take the position that we should do away with caucuses, that's fine, but you don't get to change the game in the middle of the race. I understand that by counting Michigan and Florida and not counting the caucus states, Hillary retains some level of winning metric, I just can't believe that anyone is actually buying that bullshit. Hillary complains that Michigan and Florida are being disenfranchised, but at the same time wants to disenfranchise hundreds of thousands of caucus voters?

I am SO glad I'm not going to have to vote for her.

[merwin]

1. In WA, we ONLY counted the caucus, not the mail-in ballots.

That's just retarded.

[mac2]

20. Now we find that WA didn't count all the votes?

It's not retarded it's fraud by the election judges.

[yewberry]

32. I think you're confused.

The caucus is what the Dems in WA use to allot delegates; the primary was a beauty contest. That's what is meant by "not counting."

[mac2]

38. Thanks.

But it is still not a good process. You care only about the delegates? Each candidate had a choice delegates and a vote where I live.

[yewberry]

46. Look, I'm not going to argue about whether caucuses are 'a good process.'

I don't love caucuses.

However, my state party held them on a Saturday so that more people could attend. We have absentee caucus options for cases such as disability or military personnel. Voters have the option of submitting their choice privately and leaving after the first round, or sticking around and remaining private or standing up and trying to bring others to their side. There is no viability threshold at the precinct level, so we could vote for anyone we wanted to.

I spent 8 hours at the first round of my caucus, though I didn't have to. I spent 9 hours at the next level of our caucus, though I didn't have to. Caucuses are a PITA, but that's how my state does it.

So yes, I only care about delegates. This is how my state allots delegates. Each candidate had an equal chance here. Each voter had a choice where I live, too.

[mac2]

49. Fight to change it the next election.

8-9 hours of more than one caucus is more than many citizens want to endure. They've already listened to the candidates on TV,etc.

[yewberry]

56. You don't have to stay that long, though.

If voters don't want to be there, they can submit their vote and leave as soon as the first round of votes are tallied--maybe an hour.

I stayed that long because I wanted to.

[skipos]

2. Hillary was for caucuses before she was losing them

"I want to thank all of my supporters and everyone I have met in Iowa over the past 11 months. I am in awe of your commitment to the WONDERFUL TRADITION OF THE CAUCUSES. Now they are here, and I hope that on January 3, you will stand up and be counted for me"

[NeedleCast]

3. Exactly What I'm Talking About

How is it that some people don't see the hypocrisy in that?

[jgraz]

4. She's also lost the primaries. She just lost proportionally fewer of them.

She's just lost. Period.

[mac2]

23. If they don't have a vote count how can it be a primary

election in that state? The state party decides to hold the election for a candidate but that should include all those who want to vote not a few at a meeting. That is manipulation and voting fraud.

[jwirr]

27. Caucus meetings are open - no Democrat who wants to vote is

denied access. The problem is that only states that have a caucus understands that. I have lived in both Iowa and Minnesota and I was welcome at caucuses in both states just like I was welcome to vote in the Nebraska primaries when I lived there. No one is denied a vote.

I like the caucus system because I can discuss the issues with other Democrats and be actively involved in party events that determine much more than just who is going to be a candidate. We decide what we want to go in the platform and what party rules should be. Where do you do that in a state with only a primary?

[yewberry]

34. The primary is only held

because republicans use it to allot half of their delegates. The Dems use only the caucus to allot delegates.

It is neither manipulation nor fraud.

[Hansel]

35. You do know that anyone can go to the "meeting", right?

It's not like you need a secret decoder ring to get in. It's open to the public and you can bring your kids if you don't have a babysitter.

And since it is a meeting with your neighbors, I think the chances of manipulation and voting fraud is a lot slimmer than trusting your vote to a black box voting machine which was the choice of tabulation for several of the primaries that Hillary won.

You've either had some very bad precinct captains or you have no idea what you are talking about. Our caucuses were very civil and enjoyable. The Obama supporters and Clinton supporters got along just fine. We voted for president on secret ballots, that's the way we do it in our state, and the Clinton and Obama supporters counted them together. The Clinton supporters were a little disappointed in the result, but they knew it was a fair vote. My daughter was the precinct captain and she made sure of it.

[mac2]

48. What's wrong with town hall meetings and then a secret

ballot vote?

[mac2]

24. Delete.

[lumberjack_jeff]

5. The way the system is set up, the superdelegates choose our nominee

Everything prior to that is advisory at best or theater at worst.

[NeedleCast]

6. That's an interesting way of looking at it

and by interesting, I mean insane.

The SDs didn't start moving in large clumps until this race was already over.

[lumberjack_jeff]

7. The system was set up after 1972 to prevent another McGovern from getting the nomination.

It is an institutional veto stamp to be wielded by the party apparatchiks.

And no I don't approve of it - even though my preferred candidate is hanging her hopes on them.

[ekwhite]

12. Props to you for that position

The superdelegates are an inherently undemocratic institution. If this primary has pointed out one thing, it is that the primary system needs to be reformed.

[NeedleCast]

16. while I disagree that superdelegates are neccissarily bad

I have no problem with looking at reforming the system. I just don't understand how people can support a candidate who wants to make that change DURING the race. I'm not saying anyone has to walk in lock-step with their candidate, there are certainly areas where I don't agree completely with Obama, but at the same time, some of the more vocal Hillary supporters here are actively suggesting that Hillary's (constantly shifting) view of how we should count votes is the way it's actually going to be done.

That's pretty low.

[gristy]

9. The relative number of pledged and super delegates do not support your contention

Absolutely not.

[AtomicKitten]

8. Caucuses are mean to Hillary and make her sad.

[Donna Zen]

10. I dunno?

I actually feel badly about this. No where in the rules did it state that the nominee would be decided by popular vote. I guess it's Maine's bad luck that they followed the rules; otherwise maybe the party would care about us.

Thanks for kicking us out Dems!

[ObamaKerryDem]

11. So she whines about FL and MI...

for which there were deals proposed to split the delegates, which she didn't accept....yet wants to throw out the votes in the caucus states...how many of those were there? Certainly more than a couple. What about all THOSE people, Hillary? So people who didn't vote for you don't count? Hypocritical much?

Bullshit like this reminds me of why I didn't vote for her (among other reasons) and why I don't feel particurally sorry for her in the predicament she's found herself in...

[mac2]

26. We are all whining about the Super Delegates and Caucus states.

The system is not fair or even legal when the party members can't vote for their own candidates...one vote per person.

Republicans should not be able to come to the caucus period.

Super Delegates who have not been elected by the party members that year do not belong there. They are out of power.

[jwirr]

28. I do not think that repugs are allowed to vote in any caucus I have

ever attended. However, when they follow limpballs advice they do damage in either form of election. No democrat (or independent sometimes) is refused a vote in a caucus. You do not understand what we do in our caucuses. We do vote one for who we want and then we vote for the delegate who will represent us at the state level. If people are not interested enough to come to a caucus then that is why they lose their votes.

[mac2]

37. That is not voting. That is discussion and the few ruling or who show up.

Voting should take place at the polls like any other election.

[newmajority]

41. Touching a screen on a computer, with no way of knowing who you actually "voted " for

Yeah.... that's so much better than a caucus. Funny how most of Hillary's "wins" were in states with Diebold machines. And in states where some precincts are Diebolded and others aren't, guess who won the precincts where the votes are actually counted??

Of course she hates caucuses. She can't fix them.

[MonkeyFunk]

47. and most places dont' use electronic voting machines

this argument is just dumb.

Caucuses are prone to manipulation and cheating, too.

[jwirr]

51. Have you ever attended a caucus?

[jwirr]

50. So absentee voting is not voting because it does not take place at

a poll and because everyone does not take advantage of the opportunity? No Democrat is left out because he/she did not have a choice. You go to a meeting place just like you go to a poll and you vote for the candidate of your choice just like you do at the polls.

[sniffa]

54. You're embarrassing yourself

You might want to check out now.

[julialnyc]

13. And why the news commentators don't mention this is a mystery to me

Most people don't even know this

[mac2]

42. I did read on my Yahoo news page about it.

[patrice]

14. Caucuses are about People negotiating their support with one another, not depending on Corporat

Media. They require a more mature knowledge of the Issues and the Candidates.

[Andy823]

15. What I think is

That yes, there needs to be changes, but not in the middle of this race! You can object to things, but changes have to be done after this race is over. To want to change the rules just because you are losing, is asinine!

We all know that if Hillary was winning and Obama tried to pull this stunt, she would be screaming bloody murder! All she is accomplishing is making her political career look very dim for the future!

[mac2]

45. Does seem like everyone is making up their own rules

in this primary. I've been voting a long time and can't remember such manipulation and negating such large numbers of the party vote.

We have no idea how Super Delegates or even delegates (since some states allow for vote change) will act when it come right down to it.

[TBF]

17. What is she going to do about Texas - keep the popular votes and throw out the caucus votes?

What will she do about pledged vs. unpledged delegates in each state? Wait, I know, I know! She will keep the ones pledged for Hillary and throw out the rest.

What the hell is wrong with this woman?

[Avalux]

18. Pay no attention to that woman at the podium making shit up.

That's about all I have to say about Hillary's newest twist on the math. I will be so glad when this is finally over.

[mac2]

19. Wait a dang minute. I thought they voted at/after a caucus?

If they didn't, the party members (and only Democratic Party members) should.

We have to stop allowing Republicans to pick our candidates by coming into our meetings for voting. What a mess they have made of this primary. Shame on them.

[NeedleCast]

29. That I agree with completely

Allow only registered Democrats to vote at caucuses or at the polls.

[jwirr]

30. I'm for that but it would not stop limpballs people from registering

to vote.

[Occam Bandage]

21. Absolutely. You'd think that if she didn't like caucuses, she'd have stood up and fought earlier,

instead of simply proposing disenfranchising caucus voters halfway through.

[StevieM]

22. OK, so that also means that we don't change the rules mid-game regarding the SDs.

But alas, the rules only apply if you're Hillary.

Steve

[mac2]

25. So it would seem when the party leaders want Obama.

[scheming daemons]

43. Who has asked to? Not Obama... not we supporters....

I'm just fine with the SDs voting how they wish.


...the fact that they've gone to Obama at a 10-to-1 clip since Super Tuesday doesn't seem to phase you......

[Skidmore]

31. Hillary Clinton can go to hell!

I went to my caucus. I stood and was counted along with all of my neighbors and friends. After we were counted, the number of delegates per candidate was decided based on the percentage of people who stood for them. I went, I was counted, and I expect my caucus state to be counted. Just let her try this bullshit. Bring it on.

[Strelnikov_]

36. The thing I hate about the caucus system is there is no way to rig the vote

Every person stands to express their preference and be counted. Way too transparent. Nearly impossible to doctor the vote to favor a client.

Oh, did I just say that out loud . . shit.

[mac2]

39. What about those who didn't come to your "discussion"?

A stand vote? That process seems OK for town meetings but not for a federal election.

[havocmom]

52. State primaries and caucuses are NOT Federal elections

Party. Party. Each state's PARTY gets to decide how it works, withing boundaries of National PARTY rules (decided before hand with input allowed)

I would MUCH prefer to stand and declare. I would KNOW my vote via that method was recorded and counted as I chose! Transparency is the better route to accuracy. Black boxes? Yeah, like that is a trustworthy method. :rofl:

edited for typos

[havocmom]

53. If they are interested and really care, they come, of vote absentee

Same as a secret ballot at the ol polling place system.

AND a caucus gets people more involved, so that inspires more direct participation and activism. How is THAT a bad thing? Letting people actually MEET others in their party, share information if they want, bounce ideas around, hone communication skills... why, it's like DU! It's like a local meet-up and it keeps people motivated.

Try it sometime.

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[stillcool]

40. None of that 'matters' any more does it?

I heard it's all about the Map! "Forget the Math, It's The Map!!"

[Arugula Latte]

44. She reminds me of my kids when they were about four.

We'd be playing some board game, and when it looked like things weren't going their way, they'd suddenly make stuff up. "Um, Mama, now we have to switch pieces so I'm blue now and you're red..." Stuff like that.

[havocmom]

55. Had a relative who pulled that crap when we played croquette

After trying to reason with him about all the rules (none of us had ever heard before) announced in the middle of games, I finally had enough.

Hit my ball out into the 'rough' and picked up a big rock while I was there. Walked over near the line of his next shot. Dropped my big rock right in the path of his ball. He howled and was really offended. I calmly inquired as to why he had never heard of the rule allowing for THAT play.

This primary season had reminded me too much of those games and I am not to the point of dropping rocks and listening to the rule changers howl and scream foul when they get what they've been trying to give

Yep, havocmom has reached the 'tough love' point.

:evilgrin: