No candidate has the right to divide a state's Democrats and cause tension.

[madfloridian]

Someone stopped by yesterday and asked us what we would not have brought up ourselves. We learned our lesson not to discuss it. We have had divisions even among DFA people here because the media never tells the true story of how we have been manipulated.

The question he asked was couched in angry terms. He wanted to know why the Democratic party screwed us here in Florida. I tried to explain but really got nowhere. I did finally convince him that he should be angry at his state leaders and not the whole party. It was hard to explain anymore because his anger would not let him listen.

It is wrong for a candidate to keep on using a state like this. Do any of the party leaders understand the real anger here? People get angry when they don't understand, and when only half-truths are told.

There are things that can be done to stop some of the anger. I am not sure if the Clinton campaign or LULAC or the other groups stirring it up will even try, though.

First off, they need to STOP the protests at the DNC where they are screaming and yelling like the GOP did here in West Palm Beach in 2000.

The protest at the DNC on April 30, and the one upcoming on May 31 are nothing but fake events with fake outrage with Florida Democrats like Wasserman Schultz and Corinne Brown leading the way.

It is too reminiscent of 2000, and it is too painful.



When people like Terry McAuliffe go on national TV and lie about the party rules, people listen. They get angry. Terry knew what he was doing. I can not explain that away to people here who don't pay attention.

On national TV Terry McAuliffe misleads about DNC rules.

McAuliffe was in there swinging on both Face the Nation and Meet the Press, arguing that Clinton still has a chance to win the party nomination. And if they're smart, he suggested, superdelegates will hold out and not do anything that might turn off the many people who have voted for her this primary season.

"Most of the superdelegates will wait til the end til everybody's voted," McAuliffe said. Clinton will be ahead in the popular vote, he predicted, and ahead in delegates.

"They understand we're in a fragile time in our party," he said. "Let's let the process finish. People need to be careful not to alienate" the Clinton supporters.

You would be surprised how much that interview struck home.

I noticed a post here and recommended it. It had to do with the fact that we are having to basically "coddle" one candidate who had no chance of winning.

Ordinarily, I would not say that....but these are not ordinary times in my state.

Hillary Clinton needs to step up and be honest about what went on here in Florida. Barack Obama and Howard Dean are paying visits here next week to try to calm and pacify.

But the only one who can really do it is Hillary Clinton.

[madfloridian]

1. When she came to Florida on January 29 and declared victory....

It set the stage for more anger among people who don't really understand what is going on.



Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Hillary Clinton (second from left) thanks supporters with Congressman Bill Nelson of Florida, Congressman Alcee Hastings of Florida, Miami Mayor Manny Diaz and U.S. Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz (D-F.L.) (left-right) after polls closed at the Signature Grand in Davie, Florida on Tuesday, January 29, 2008.


http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1793

[kid a]

20. This photo = her Mission Accomplished gaffe

[MethuenProgressive]

50. Why do DU's Obama followers hate Florida's Democrats?

Oh yeah, after a week of Obama rule-violating TV ads, the voters still rejected him!

God BLESS Florida's Democrats! Don't let Obama steal their votes!

[democracy1st]

70. The question is will you reject him come November ?

[SwampG8r]

83. i am a floridian and an obama supporter

if the election were today hillary would lose
and as a democrat and an ADULT i understand the purpose and use of rules
we broke the rules willingly
to call a 115-1 vote unwilling is to deny reality
and forget the "paper vote trail" excuse
there arent enough dems in the florida state house to have stopped the date change
they could have all voted against it and it would have passed anyway
we had a depressed primary that hillary won
she claims not to have campaigned here well maybe not but she was sure here a lot for "fundraising"
our turnout was low in comparison to other nearby states
our AA vote turnout was low because with a dead primary they had no reason to go to the polls
i promise you the last thing hillary would agree to would be an actual revote in florida

[SanchoPanza]

108. Because their leadership is dumber than a sack of rocks?

I won't speak for Obama supporters, but I find that the constant problem with primaries is that you are forced to witness the abject stupidity of people who are ostensibly your political allies.

It's thoroughly depressing. I can't even read NoQuarter anymore.

[southern_belle]

2. k & r

[AtomicKitten]

3. Her manipulation of the perception of what a win is undermines the election process.

She's giving Bush circa 2000 a run for the money with these tactics.

[madfloridian]

5. Well said. I remember her recent interview with the St. Pete Times

She said Obama did not want to count votes. That is just not true.

".."The elected officials in Michigan were all united — let's revote. The Democratic National Committee decided to support a revote. The only person who didn't want to let people vote was Sen. Obama,'' Clinton responded.

"The cynical explanation is, no, Sen. Obama does not want people's votes to count. We're Democrats. I thought we believed in counting votes."

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1992

[AtomicKitten]

44. parsing of words is so old school

as it turns out, neither she nor the GOP know how to run against Barack :D

[phrigndumass]

8. That's exactly what I had going through my mind

El Gatito Atomico, you're a mindreader! :D

(K/R madfloridian!)

[truedelphi]

4. Hillary clearly is a tool of the Powers that Be. When you have both her and Karl Rove

Spouting off about the need to let every voter have their choice respected, you have to wonder.

Neither of these two cared at all about those of us in the voting reform movement in 2004. Hillary was quite pleased that Kerry conceded - if he had avoided conceding, prevailed and seen to it that Ohio was contested, and perhaps prevented the election from being stolen, she might not have had her shot to run this year.

[Diane R]

17. Please keep banging this drum...HRC helped Bush steal the WH by not supporting Kerry.

[truedelphi]

23. Why thank you for the encouragement.

I have banged that drum so much that countless "ignore" buttons have been imposed
upon me <methinks>

[RaleighNCDUer]

86. Which is why I have exactly zero faith in her gracefully shutting down

her campaign at some mythical time in the future. If she was really interested in the party, she could have ended her campaign after the super tuesday disappointment. After losing Texas. After losing NC. After winning WV.

Those who think she's going to fold after Tuesday are just plain wrong. If she goes down, she wants Obama to go down with her.

[RainDog]

6. Clinton just digs her grave a little deeper each day

If she doesn't stop this shit, she will be toxic.

Why in hell does she think anyone would want to vote for her after she keeps trying to change the rules to suit herself? I'm sick of the past. I want to move forward. Too bad she and Bill can't understand this.

[Dr.Phool]

7. Do you think he reason the media in Florida refuses to tell the truth,

And keeps catapulting the propaganda, has anything to do with all the revenue they lost because nobody would campaign here?

That's a lot of campaign ads that didn't get run, and a lot of newspaper space unsold. I was in several other states before their primaries, and the ads were wall to wall, 24/7 for weeks.

[madfloridian]

9. That would be as good a reason as any.

You might be right.

But comes a time someone has to stop it.

[nenagh]

18. the Clintons delight in the power they achieve

by creating anger and rage among Hill supporters. The greater the fury among her people the stronger their bonds are to Hillary.

The stronger Hill's control of large portions of the electorate, the greater is the Clinton power to extract concessions when negotiating with the Dems.

They are getting the last laugh.

[madfloridian]

30. Very perceptive post. Welcome to DU

She is getting on my last nerve. You put it well.

[madfloridian]

10. She did it again in KY today...

She is implying that Obama and the party leaders do not want Florida's votes to count. She knows that ill-informed voters in all the states will believe her.

It infuriates me so much...how dare she.


http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2008/05/clinton_ive_got_kentucky_to_my.html

"If we get everybody turned out, it's going to send a great message to our country that you don't stop democracy in its tracks. You don't tell some states that they can't vote and other states that have already had the opportunity that they're somehow more important. I don't believe that," Clinton said. "I want everybody to vote and everybody to help pick our next president."

With the delegate math weighing heavily against her and a likely defeat to Obama in Oregon, which also counts its ballots Tuesday, Clinton has put her stock in a May 31 hearing by the Democrat's rules committee over contested convention delegations from Florida and Michigan. Both states were stripped of their delegates for moving their primaries ahead of Feb. 5.

Clinton has maintained she leads the popular vote among states that have conducted primaries, including what she calls victories in Michigan, where she was the only major Democratic contender on the ballot, and in Florida, where neither she nor Obama "

[SeattleGirl]

11. Why don't party leaders speak up about this?

Why don't they start explaining WHY MI and FL delegates aren't being seated (for now, anyway), and why the votes aren't being counted? I know some have addressed this, but it needs to be addressed again. By their silence, they are giving legitimacy to Clinton's false claims.

[madfloridian]

12. Dean has tried to do on TV. He went on 5 shows in one day.

He tried to be decent and explain it, but she just keeps on.

After he has explained it that many times, what else can he do.

[SeattleGirl]

14. Yeah, I know he has done that.

I just wish some others would do it too. Not directly attack Clinton, but explain, as Dean has done, that the rules were set before any voting happened, and that FL and MI chose to break the rules, so they are faced with the consequences.

:sigh:

I suppose I'm tilting at windmills here, but it really bothers me when people lie, and try to pretend things aren't the way they are. Clinton is manipulating people's feelings, and adding insult to injury by pushing her falsehoods.

I feel bad for the people of those two states, because to me, voting -- and having votes count -- is very important. But again, the states knew what would happen if they moved their dates, and they did it anyway. Clinton should be ashamed of herself for doing what she's doing, but obviously, she's not.

[liberalcommontater]

19. Hi, help me out here...

I am a Clinton supporter. I believe that party leaders in Michigan (my state) and Florida broke the rules and moved their primaries up. I also believe that they were punished by not having the results count.

Good so far?

Because these results were not to be counted, Michigan and Florida could remedy this situation.
How? Hold a revote. Agree between the candidates on how to split the delegates. Count the delegates in a diminished way. This is what I have heard. Other remedies, I don't know.

It seems that when Senator Clinton (my candidate) had the nomination in the bag she was fine with not counting these states.
When Senator Obama needed to maintain his lead and avoid the appearance of her catching up, he would not agree to a revote.
A pox on both their houses.

It appears to me that both were willing to throw us under the bus to their advantage. While I don't like this, I understand it. What I am most interested in however is the role that someone should play to recognize the votes of Democrats from Michigan and Florida before the convention. Use the earlier results, have a revote, take a poll, I don't care.

The democratic nominee should be chosen by all the democrats. Especially when it was not the voters who messed things up.

Whichever way the votes and delegates fall is the way it should be based on the choices of the voters. Where am I wrong?

[AllentownJake]

22. We tried the revote compromise

1) No one could agree on the rules. Democrats crossed over and participated in our own operation chaos for Mittens. Rush got the damn idea from us.
Nobody could agree on whether these people could vote. Plus what about the GOP and Independent voters who really support either candidate and voted in the GOP election.

2) Nobody could agree on how it could be paid for. The state parties all insisted it be paid by the DNC the DNC insisted on the state parties and the people willing to finance it were Clinton people which might have been illegal in Michigan or would hold the election into question.

3) Hillary sabotaged this as much as Barack did because is MI really voted Barack would have netted more votes and her popular vote argument would have dried up. Hillary offered no compromises during the negotiations to her positions.

[madfloridian]

24. Dean told both states to have a revote. The states said no.

Hillary's campaign people in FL not only said no, they said hell no.

Obama followed the party rules, Hillary did not.

She is catapulting propaganda and using this state as a tool.

People who want to know can use common sense. She was for the rules before she was against them.

I despise the Clintons and their tactics. I wish I had not spent the 90s defending them.

If you really want the truth, click the red button in post.

Otherwise....forget it.

[liberalcommontater]

26. Thanks.

What red button?

[madfloridian]

27. The one that says journal updated.

[Sancho]

43. I agree....

:dem:

[madfloridian]

46. Did you know they were told to have a revote?

While they were trying to stop the donations to the DNC they were demanding that Dean pay for the revotes.

Dean told them to have one, the states refused. Now the Hillary campaign is blaming Dean and Obama.

They should not have been trying to crash party fundraising, then demanding he pay millions for their own screwups

[Sancho]

64. I knew there was some back and forth about the revote...

candidates will always try to do what they think will help them at the time, and change their strategy as they go along. All the top candidates in the original 5 or 6 would have raised money in Florida if they had campaigned for a primary here.

I haven't received any direct requests of nonsupport for the DNC, but I've heard that from others. I agree that some of the Florida leadership need to step down.

[ekwhite]

51. You have a good point

Both candidates have been less than helpful, but I feel the Clinton campaign threw up more roadblocks because they were able to use it as more of a talking point. They had good reasons not to see the matter settled.

I think that on May 31, we will see a legitimate settlement of the issue. It is now in Obama's interest as the front-runner to placate Florida and Michigan. As Grantcart has posted before, the math works for him regardless of how you slice it - giving the Clinton campaign what they want 4 days before the final primaries may be the smartest thing to do.

[2rth2pwr]

68. I can't believe you still side with the party fat cats over the individual voices

of millions of people who exercised one of our most cherished rights. You are so wedded to the party structure that you are really

willing to squelch the attempt of our citizens to participate in the process.

That is what's shameful.

[madfloridian]

69. I side with truth, not spin and propaganda. I despise propaganda.

And I emptied my list too soon. Bye

[bpeale]

13. yeah, that's real helpful. take away more of the people's rights

[SeattleGirl]

15. It's called consequences.

FL and MI knew the rules before any voting took place, but they decided that moving the dates up so they could be among the early states was more important than honoring the votes their citizens made.

It sucks, but they (the Dem parties in both states) knew full well what the price would be, and they did it anyway.

[asjr]

21. So why punish the voters? Every vote

should count. This delegate, superdelegate stuff is nonsense. They should be apologizing to the voters, such as my sister who lives in Florida. I have had quite a time trying to explain to her something I don't understand. I understand what happened, I just don't understand why.

[madfloridian]

25. Hell, I give up. Give her the effing state. Let her have it.

Shut her up.

Let's humor her some more for all the people who don't want to be informed.

[2rth2pwr]

76. You really don't get it, do you? It's not about Hillary, it's about the millions of

Dem voters across this country that don't want the DNC to be the tyrants they are threatening to be. All across this country people agree

that snuffing out the tool that the people have to participate in our democracy is draconian. How is punishing the people a fair action

to take?

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

87. Jump on Hillary - she agreed to rules - Its a political party, she acts like Lieberman

she doesn't want to go by the rules that SHE agreed to.

[2rth2pwr]

91. Have you ever changed your mind? Ever thought about something and then later realized that

there were reasons that you hadn't considered before that made you confront the idea that you may have made a mistake?

If the consequence of the actions of a handful of state level politicians cause millions of voters to be disenfranchised, for some of

them it's not the first time that their votes were stolen from them, then that rule needs to be changed. If you want to hold her to her

words, but only the words you choose, somethings very wrong.

[trocar]

104. Changing my mind

Ah, yes I have had times in my life when I have changed my mind. And when those times have occurred. I've been man enough to explain why I've made the change, not try to make it appear like I was always of that mind. It's Hillary's not admitting she's changed her mind, she just keeps coming off like she was always for MI and FL to be counted. That's was frustrating to me, and gives the impression she doesn't consider her previous actions. This is a process, not a single event, things certainly don't disappear just because we ignore them.

[RaleighNCDUer]

96. The state party DLCer conspire to break the rules in order to give

their candidate an advantage, and that makes the DNC 'tyrants'?

All across this country, the consensus is that FL and MI should have followed the rules.

Why do you want the Republicans to win?

[madfloridian]

28. Don't try to explain anymore. Let her vote for McCain

or give the state to Hillary so she will quit stamping her feet.

:banghead:

[asjr]

35. My sister is not political. She just

votes for the one she likes. She just wanted to understand and I couldn't tell her. She would never vote for McCain at all.

[madfloridian]

36. If Hillary would be honest, everyone would understand.

That is why I am so angry.

Your sister, like the rest of us, is being manipulated.

Hillary can stop it right now if she chooses.

[RaleighNCDUer]

94. See my post, #90, below.

Think about that, THEN explain it to her.

This has nothing to do with delegates or voters - it's all about the feud between the DLC and the DNC.

[SeattleGirl]

32. I don't know why the rules were set up that way either.

I think too much importance is put on when states vote; sometimes I think having everyone vote on a single day like in the GE would be better, or a regional division with 4 primary dates, as proposed by some critter in the party, would be better.

I'm not happy with the way they set it up, but I'm even less happy with how Clinton is trying to manipulate things. She agreed to them when they were set; trying to change the rules after the game has been played is just wrong.

I'm not trying to diss your sister's vote; I am a huge advocate for voting rights; I encourage people to register and to vote. But the rules were set and agreed to by the party and the candidates. This is a problem that needs to be addressed, but I'm not sure how.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

88. everyone who agreed to the rules knows why its set up that way

its on the DNC website.

Way before the primaries the DNC began meeting - DNC thats a committee,
its not Howard Dean all by his lonesome.

They discussed how it was a bad idea to FRONT LOAD the primaries
with big states. FL and MI are BIG STATES.

It would discourage many candidates from entering the contest and also
give big states too much sway over the primary process.

They wanted a balance of states to go first, small enough for more candidates
to be able to afford to run.

Hillary agreed to the rules and acknowledged the importance of the rules.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

89. bullshit - Edwards & Obama's names not on ballot in Michigan, this is the US, not Russia

Your sister doesn't understand that a primary is governed by the political party
that holds it.

Hillary agreed to the rules, her advisor helped set up the sanctions.

[liberalcommontater]

120. Ironic that your name is WillYourVoteBeCounted...

Is it not true that the DLC had a range of options in punishing Mi and Fl? They did not have only one avenue? Is it not also true that Obama took his name off the Mi ballot because he saw he had no chance to win? Why not leave it on? Why not agree to a revote unless you think that you will lose, perhaps worse than the first time?

If you have won already why not concede MI and FL just to make them happy since you will need them in the fall?

Why all the hand wringing?

[Sancho]

47. Sorry, but that is bull****

"FLORIDA and MICHIGAN" did not know anything. In Fl, the leadership went along with the GOP plan to move the vote. Most of that change was not reported or discussed or debated.

Regardless of what you think, the VAST majority of voters in FL who attended the primaries DON'T CARE what date they voted. It is irrelevant when they vote (to them). They are interested in WHO they voted for and representation.

[SeattleGirl]

93. That is not true.

Many people in both states know what was going on.

[Sancho]

110. They may know now...but no one knew when the dates were planned.

It was only after the fact that most Florida papers reported widely on primary date changes. And even then almost all the reports here discussed the constitutional property tax amendments. There was very little discussion of losing delegates which was buried in discussion of taxes and insurance rates. I read the paper and local news everyday, and I hardly noticed any early coverage.

NO ONE PUT A QUESTION TO THE VOTERS: DO YOU WANT TO LOSE YOUR DELEGATES? Is there any reasonable person who would have agreed to that? The Democratic voters here don't care if Florida is the "first" or "last" state to vote in the primaries.

This whole mess was partly the blame of the GOP putting important amendments on the date of an early primary date so that IF the Democratic leadership wanted Democratic voters to participate, it would be best to go along with the primary change AND some wild leadership in Florida (Thurman, Nelson, Wasserman, Brown) who saw SC and others moving their dates and wanted to do the same thing.

This is a state that could swing the general election (see 2000 and 2004). I'm not worried about the DUer's who will vote Democratic anyway. It only takes a handful of independent voters in a couple of big states to see McCain in office for 4 to 8 more years! If that is worth punishing Florida; then go for it, but it is a pretty silly thing to do.

[paulk]

65. would you be down with the "consequences"

if they include losing MI and FL in the general election?

That would suck, too.

[SeattleGirl]

92. The states broke the rules, period.

It wasn't as if the Dem parties in each of these states didn't know the DLC rules before they broke them.

[RaleighNCDUer]

98. That's the DNC rules - it's the DLC rule breakers. nt

[paulk]

112. so that's your answer?

even if it costs us this next election by losing two of the biggest states in the Union - "the rules must be followed".

And what does the DLC have to do with this conversation?

[RaleighNCDUer]

95. And why would disgruntled Dems vote REPUBLICAN in the GE?

Because their own state party apparatus fucked them over?

Wouldn't the better option be to vote the DLC assholes OUT and get good democrats IN?

[paulk]

113. I don't know

maybe because they'll see it as the DNC fucking them over?

maybe they think DLC "assholes" are good democrats?

maybe they're just plain tired of the pinheads who keep telling them that their votes don't count and ultimately don't see any difference bertween one group of assholes and another?

[RaleighNCDUer]

90. And of course, that was not even the REAL reason.

The DLC wanted large states front-loaded because that would only help Hillary who had the most money for campaigning and the most name recognition out of the gate. Just as California favored her initially, on those criteria, so would Florida and Michigan, whereas later in the primary season, once people were more familiar with the other candidates and they had more time for fundraising behind them those advantages would shrink drastically.

It wasn't that Florida and Michigan wanted to be more important - it was the DLC machine in Florida and Michigan that wanted to get their candidate an advantage, with the added benefit of discrediting Dr Dean and the DNC.

[VotesForWomen]

106. yeah, and the consequences of screwing FL and MI will be "say hello to president mccain."

[madfloridian]

29. Eff the rules. Give FL to Hillary so she will shut up.

And so people won't claim they are not getting to vote.

Who cares about rules??????????????

[ekwhite]

52. Actually, that may be the best thing to do

I also think that is exactly what the Obama campaign will agree to in the rules committee. Perhaps Florida will get their hands slapped by taking away superdelegates, or perhaps they will use the 1/2 vote option, but they will seat Florida. The Obama campaign has nothing to lose anymore by seating Florida, and it will take away her last excuse for taking it to the convention.

[madfloridian]

57. Dean has said over and over they will seat FL.

But I think she wants them ALL seated.

That would be a horrible thing to do.

[ekwhite]

62. Didn't McAuliffe say he would be OK with a half-vote compromise?

Seat them all and give them 1/2 a vote each, per DNC rules for the minimum punishment?

[RaleighNCDUer]

97. And what happens in 12 when Hillary runs to unseat Obama,

the way Kennedy ran against Carter in 80? How many big states are going to demand to go up front, based on our not penalizing the rule breakers this time?

If the party is not torn apart this year, THAT would certainly do it. We wouldn't see another Democratic president for 20 years.

[Diane R]

16. Please keep posting these threads, MadFloridian. You are doing us a wonderful service.

[judasdisney]

53. Amen.

[Tellurian]

31. Why don't you stop your divisive attacks on Hillary, madfloridian..

The Campaigns are working towards a merger!

Rival Camps Plan Inevitable Merger

Clinton, Obama Supporters Discuss Combined Effort to Win in November

She may be trailing, but Sen. Hillary Roham Clinton has plenty of supporters and big donors. If Sen. Barack Obama wins the nomination, he will need them.

By Matthew Mosk and Chris Cillizza
Washington Post Staff Writers
Sunday, May 18, 2008; Page A01

Top fundraisers for Sens. Hillary Rodham Clinton and Barack Obama have begun private talks aimed at merging the two candidates' teams, not waiting for the Democratic nominating process to end before they start preparations for a hard-fought fall campaign.

Despite Obama's apparently insurmountable lead in delegates needed to claim the nomination, aides to both candidates are resigned to the idea that the Democratic contest will continue at least through June 3, when Montana and South Dakota will cast the final votes of the primary season.

But in small gatherings around Washington and in planning sessions for party unity events in New York and Boston in coming weeks, fundraisers and surrogates from both camps are discussing how they can put aside the vitriol of the past 18 months and move forward to ensure that the eventual nominee has the resources to defeat Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) in November.

Mark Aronchick, a Philadelphia lawyer who has raised more than $1 million for Clinton's bid, said that while her supporters have not given up on their candidate, they recognize the need to start preparing for the general election.

"Only if we do this right, and see this through in the right way, will there be a chance for a full, rapid and largely complete unification of the party," Aronchick said.

Aronchick was one of about 35 Clinton and Obama insiders who attended a dinner last week in Washington aimed at what he characterized as helping the two sides "grope towards unity."

The gathering, held at the Ritz-Carlton residence of Jim Johnson and Maxine Isaacs, was a fundraiser for the Democratic National Committee at which former Treasury secretary Robert Rubin was honored. But the guests were well aware of the symbolism as they sipped cocktails and admired the views of the Potomac River and the Washington Monument. The event honoring a prominent Clinton supporter was held at the home of an Obama backer and co-hosted by another, former senator Thomas A. Daschle (S.D.).

"The people there had all picked sides," one attendee said. "There was a sense that there is an obligation to lead by example."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/17/AR2008051702425.html?hpid=topnews

Supporters are moving on...when will you get it?

[madfloridian]

34. When Hillary gets honest about Florida I will stop right then.

I will not allow her manipulation of this state to stand without opposing it.

You shouldn't either.

It is dividing good Democrats here.

If she shuts up about FL I will hush.

[Evergreen Emerald]

37. Please. You are manipulating the issue with you OFFENSIVE

photographs of the republicans. I cannot hardly believe that you call yourself a democrat and continue to make those inaccurate, offensive, ignorant comparisons.

[madfloridian]

38. Did you see the video of the DNC protest??? Did you?

How is it different? Please clarify.

[Tellurian]

54. She defends Dean and the DNC rather than disenfranchised Voters..

Politicians over People.. The poor woman has lost her way!

[madfloridian]

58. At least I tell the truth. So many here do not do that anymore.

Hillary has been showing her true colors.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

82. Hillaryis44 - hows that opposition research going?

I see your favorite site used to attack John Edwards TOO:

hillaryis44.org/ - Digital Hillaryland

that appears to be steeped in oppo research to defend the Democratic presidential candidate against all manner of sliming and smearing from her opponents - with such titles as "Stab in the Back" and insinuations of how Obama and Edwards are conspiring together against her. One can sign up as a new registrant, go to links and search the site - a partisan trove of Hillaryland info...

[Major Hogwash]

84. That's because Dean is the party chairman!!

Those voters may or not even vote this fall - fuck 'em!!

[RaleighNCDUer]

100. It was a few DLC politicians that created this fiasco, knowing full

well what the consequences would be. It was THEY who disenfranchised their own state party voters. Not Dr Dean.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madfloridian]

40. You accused me of lying. Not true. My state has been divided...

since the day Hillary decided to claim the delegates. She agreed to the rules, then did not agree.

I do not like being told I am lying.

I will stop fighting when she tells the truth.

[RTBerry]

41. "It is dividing good Democrats here."

http://www.goenglish.com/ThePotCallingTheKettleBlack.asp">Click Me

[madfloridian]

42. My state is a victim of Hillary's selfish plan.

There is no way to insult me because I am right. She is wrong. It is wrong to divide our state to where the anger is about to explode.

It is selfish, it is sad.

She could get LULAC and the other groups to cancel that ugly protest they are planning on May 31. That would go a long way toward healing.

She could stop the divisive rhetoric, and it would help.

Until she does, you can come here in droves to attack me.....I simply do not care.

[Tellurian]

55. It speaks volumes when you have posters responses deleted

because you can't stand hearing the Truth about what you're doing defending politicians to disenfranchised voters in Fl!

It's Flat out WRONG!

[madfloridian]

So tell on me for that. Please do. There is time when reality rears it ugly head

and some are not willing to accept it

[madfloridian]

59. Dupe delete

.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

80. OMG I see your signature logo is for the racist nutbag site

yuck. That is a cointel pro op designed to help John McInsane.

[RaleighNCDUer]

101. You wouldn't know the truth if it bit you on the ass.

Your candidate and her DLC cohorts disenfranchised the voters, not the DNC.

[madfloridian]

119. Oh, sweetie, I have been deleted more times than you would dream of.

Think of another tactic.

[RTBerry]

109. I have no desire to insult you.

I appreciate the research you've done; but I think your focus has shifted to an overly simplistic narrative in which Hillary Clinton is the font of all evil. I do not hold Hillary to blame for the machinations of self-serving local politicians in this state; whereas you make her out to be the prescient head of a vast conspiratorial empire, with thousands of mesmerized agents who respond in perfect unison to her every whim. That's a bit fantastic, don't you think?

And I think it unjust to allow the consequences of local politicians to fall upon the voters. With the awful gerrymandering in this state, it's not like we can vote them out of office. (At least not where I live, where Democrats run as Republicans just to stand a chance of being elected dog-catcher.)

I'm afraid your's is not a unifying call: it is divisive; and yet you now accuse the designated antagonist (Hillary) in your storyline of divisiveness. Hence my observation: pot & kettle.

[Gman]

115. Touche!

[madfloridian]

116. Hillary shifted the focus when she changed her mind and demanded the delegates.

There is no excuse for what she and her surrogates here in this state have done.

One good thing...it really showed up her ruthlessness. She was willing to manipulate the people of Florida for her own gain.

[madfloridian]

48. I posted that article already....it mostly got ignored.

Why? Because Hillary and Bill are still on the trail saying things about FL, Obama, and Dean that are not true.

I posted it. I want reconciliation. BUT she must STOP dividing our state and dividing us from our friends.

It is unforgivable.

[nenagh]

60. Bush uses fear to motivate

Bill and Hill use different tools: inciting anger and rage in some supporters and instilling a sense in others that the opposite side is out to deprive Floridians of their vote. Thus, Hill solidifies a base of supporters that have an emotional attatchment to her.

It appears very difficult for Floridians to believe that a former president or his wife could verbalize distortions and even outright lies, with aplomb.

Of course why should Hill or Bill tell the truth in Florida when distortions are so much more to their advantage.

So now, how will the campaigns merge when one side of the equation dodged sniper fire in Bosnia?

Madfloridian ...I enjoy all your posts. Thank you, You have an honest response to being surrounded by manufactured indignation whipped up by the Clintons.

[madfloridian]

61. Thank you....it is inciting anger and rage...and my state may not heal

from all the spin.

[RaleighNCDUer]

99. Gee, it looks like EVERYBO)DY is moving on

except for you and Hillary.

[DU GrovelBot]

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45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ShortnFiery]

49. Excellent research and commentary madfloridian. k & r. eom.

[IndianaGreen]

56. K&R and bookmarked

for future reference.

Hillary Clinton needs to step up and be honest about what went on here in Florida

She has never told the truth about anything, going back to her vote on IWR. Why would Hillary, or her philandering husband, act any different now?

[madfloridian]

63. I just realized LULAC sued the TX Democratic Party.

"SAN ANTONIO—The Texas Democratic Party was sued Friday by Latino advocacy groups that contend the complicated primary and caucus system used in the March 4 presidential primary unfairly diluted Latino votes.
The League of United Latin American Citizens of Texas and the Mexican American Bar Association of Houston sued in federal court, arguing the party failed to seek clearance required by the U.S. Justice Department for the so-called "Texas Two Step." The groups also argue the system effectively discriminates against Latino voters by giving them fewer delegates.

Texas Democrats distribute the state's 193 delegates using both a primary election and a caucus, but the distribution favors state Senate districts that had high voter turnout in the last presidential and gubernatorial elections.

In the March 4 election, that meant predominantly Hispanic districts, where turnout was low in 2004 and 2006, got fewer delegates than others, particularly urban, predominantly black districts. Latino districts favored Hillary Clinton; black districts favored Barack Obama.

"The manner used to allocate the delegates ... undervalues Latino Democratic voters and does not provide Latino voters with an equal opportunity to participate in the nominating process and to elect candidates of their choice," the lawsuit says."

http://www.elpasotimes.com/ci_9208303?source=most_viewed

Anyone heard anymore about that suit filed on May 8?

Geez, there is still a FL lawsuit pending...let's just sue the party's butts off.

[paulk]

66. it's the daily outrage

:eyes:

[madfloridian]

67. Then someone should stop the protest on May 31...

and stop the rallies throughout the state where anger is spread. And someone should stop spreading anger about delegates that are not theirs to begin with.

[2rth2pwr]

81. Stop people from protesting? You have lost your mind.

[OzarkDem]

71. Very true, and Obama has done a great deal of it

Florida Dem voters have a right to have their votes counted.

[RaleighNCDUer]

102. Not since their state party leaders took it away from them.

Try pointing in the right direction.

[NanceGreggs]

72. Please, madfloridian ...

... DON'T EVER STOP!!!

:kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick:

[madfloridian]

73. Oh, gee, Nance...

my heart went to my toes....I thought you were going to ask me to stop.

Would have broken my heart. :P

[NanceGreggs]

77. Never!

Your posts have been INCREDIBLE throughout this process!!!

:yourock:

[McCamy Taylor]

74. Who gives you people the right to stop LULAC from protesting?

If LULAC wants to protest the sun rising in the east, that is its own damn business.

First women were the enemy and the elderly were the enemy and then blue collar workers were the enemy and now Latinos are the enemy?

This is just insane.

I might like to spend some time with the group that includes the women, elderly, blue collar workers, Latinos and everybody else that certain people have decided are no longer allowed to voice their opinions in this country. They might have something worth saying.

[madfloridian]

78. LULAC has the right to protest...but it will benefit Republicans.

It is their right....let them do it. It will hurt our chances. They are Hillary supporters.

[bhikkhu]

75. Thanks for all the hard work

From the other side of the country all I can say is it really sucks to see Florida screwed over, used and abused for individual political gain, yet again. It has to be some kind of twisted record, how many elections has this happened now?

Hang in there and keep up the truth-telling. At some point things really have to get better...

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

79. Does Hillary want a Dem in the White House or not?

thats the big question.

Would she rather McCain be in the whitehouse and we have more of the Bush
policies?

[Major Hogwash]

85. It's a racist ploy to divide the entire party. Hillary's entitlement plan is not working out.

Much to her and Bubba's dismay.

[democracy1st]

103. madfloridian I feel your pain,I can't see why more Democrats aren't coming out against this bs

[madfloridian]

117. Because of the attacks against someone when they do speak up.

That is why.

[VotesForWomen]

105. 'a candidate' is not dividing FL; that fact that their votes won't count is dividing them.

[anigbrowl]

107. Why aren't Florida obama voters protesting then?

She could have all the delegates in FL and MI and he's still way ahead. Why aren't pissed-off Floridians complaining to the GOP about having their delegation halved?

[Sancho]

111. That's easy. The GOP thinks the delegate thing will win the White House!

Why complain about losing delegates if your plan is working!? The GOP is smart. They have targeted the big states that win the general elections. They don't even have to spend a dollar in Florida now, the Democrats are handing the republicans the general election on a platter.

[symbolman]

114. K & R Madfloridian!!

You Go! You know you've got it going on when the Delusion Core shows up in attack mode, you Expose Them for the Frauds and backing a Fraud!

They have Nothing left! Soon they'll be squabbling over what shoes their High Priestess of Lies wears.

Seriously deranged, why can't they hang at a "Hillary is a Goddess" board and quit annoying us with the negative cheerleader horseshit??

All Trash Obama All the Time, its all She had, and All They've GOT! They don't even Realise they don't even HAVE a Candidate anymore!

Soon they'll be dropping like flies when the board decides to get behind Obama, and they can go piss and moan about voting Republican, which it is my belief they WERE from the Start, if They have been backing her with such passion while she attacks a True Democrat, then SHE and THEY ARE actually Republicans..

Its that simple, and why your excellent pic of the 2000 Faked Riot is so appropriate too!!

We've got your back sweetheart!

[madfloridian]

118. Found more about the lawsuit against the TX Dem Party...judge cancelled hearing.

I am not sure of all the implications.

This is the lawsuit filed by LULAC against the TX Democrats over the caucus and primary system.

Judge cites gas prices, nixes hearing on LULAC suit

"In a May 9 lawsuit, LULAC and others representing Latino voters charge the Democratic Party with violating Latino voting rights by tying the number of delegates sent to the party’s national convention from each state senatorial district to turnout in gubernatorial elections within the districts; that method results in more delegates from cities such as Houston, Dallas and Austin and fewer delegates from South Texas, where turnout tends to surge in March primaries and drop off in November when there are not many contested races.

Biery’s cancellation rationale appears in his order, fetchable here.

“While the Court realizes time is of the essence in this case,” his order states, “the Court wants to perform its task thoroughly, correctly, and in an orderly fashion. At this time, the Court sees no reason for a hearing with testimony. Moreover, numerous gallons of $4.00 a gallon gasoline would be expended for a significant number of persons to appear with the result being an oral presentation of already written arguments.”

Accordingly, his order states, the scheduled Monday morning hearing is cancelled.

The judge’s order also indicates he could rule on the LULAC challenge based entirely on briefs filed by the plaintiffs and the party.

“Based on the written briefs already filed and to be filed, and the Court’s own independent research, the Court intends to rule… unless it becomes clear (that) in court testimony is necessary,” his order states."

[madfloridian]

121. McCain called her to tell her how courageous she is.

"Sen. Clinton is also getting encouragement from an unlikely source: Sen. McCain. Last week he called to congratulate her for continuing to win big contests and told her he admired her "courage and grit."

About that call, Sen. Clinton would say only, "We're friends."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121121426734803879.html?mod=hps_us_pageone