Gender Issue Lives On

[OzarkDem]

“Women felt this was their time, and this has been stolen from them,” said Marilu Sochor, 48, a real estate agent in Columbus, Ohio, and a Clinton supporter. “Sexism has played a really big role in the race.”

...

And Mrs. Clinton seemed to channel the lives of regular women, who often saw her as an avenging angel. Take Judith Henry, 67, for whom Mrs. Clinton’s primary losses stirred decades-old memories of working at a phone company where women were not allowed to hold management positions. “They always gave us the clerical jobs and told us we didn’t have families to support,” she said. At a rally last month in Bloomington, Ind., she sat with her daughter Susan Henry, 45, a warehouse worker, who complained that her male colleagues did less work and made more money than the women did.

...

Ms. Kamarck, 57, the Harvard professor and a longtime adviser to Democratic candidates, said she was still incredulous about the time her colleagues on Walter F. Mondale’s presidential campaign, all men, left for lunch without inviting her — because, she later discovered, they were headed to a strip club.

...

Cynthia Ruccia, 55, a sales director for Mary Kay cosmetics in Columbus, Ohio, is organizing a group, Clinton Supporters Count Too, of mostly women in swing states who plan to campaign against Mr. Obama in November. “We, the most loyal constituency, are being told to sit down, shut up and get to the back of the bus,” she said.




http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/19/us/politics/19women.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1&hp

[GarbagemanLB]

1. What about the African American community? Can't this be their time?

[Colobo]

6. Very true.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

2. That highlighted last line could have come from the mouth of an African American.

[leftofcool]

4. There are many African American women in this new movement

[SemiCharmedQuark]

5. And there are many women (like me) that support OBAMA.

[OzarkDem]

18. So?

You're in the minority. There are also some women who think there's never been such a thing as gender discrimination, too. Doesn't mean they're right.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

24. So if Clinton is the nominee, all AA's should just stay home right?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

Are you saying that not supporting Clinton is an indication of not being aware of discrimination?

Go piss up a rope.

Hillary Clinton =/= All women

[OzarkDem]

52. ?

You make no sense, as usual.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

75. "You're in the minority. There are also some women who think there's never been such a thing...."

You made perfect sense there.

Go piss up a rope. I hope that makes sense to you.

[eridani]

126. Some of us think that fighting gender discrimination with cluster bombs won't work

And that even if it did work it would be morally appalling.

[GarbagemanLB]

8. Hm...Obama drawing 90% of the AA vote. My guess is not many...

[OzarkDem]

9. There are many AA women who support Clinton

and the behavior of the Obama campaign makes them very unhappy.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

11. I'm a woman and I support Obama

And I'm less than thrilled with the campaign Clinton has run.

[Youphemism]

60. That's not fair

Just because they're recovering alcoholics doesn't mean they chose the right candidate.

Look, there are a bunch of people who think Clinton is at a disadvantage because she's a woman. There are a bunch of people who think Obama is at a disadvantage because he's black. They're both right. They both have people who will vote against them just because of who they are. They both knew that getting into this.

Hillary had an incredible brand name advantage, and many people who owed her favors from the 90s. It's pretty unfair to suggest that Obama overcame all that just by luck, or because it's a male-dominated society.

"Politics is a contact sport. If you don't want to get knocked around, don't suit up." --Bill Clinton

I think Hillary took more shots at Barack than he did at her. But he's the one left standing. What would you be saying to the Obama folks if the situation were reversed?

[OzarkDem]

74. Nice, real nice

[cali]

153. Actually, a very small minority of AA women support Hillary

Obama get 85 to 92 percent of the AA vote. That includes women. So far fewer AA women support Hillary than those vaunted hard working whites.

[leftofcool]

3. And it just keeps on growing

There will be more good news coming

[Gore1FL]

7. Actually

they are being told to get on the bus, we have a general election to win.

Not all women voted for Hillary. The whole thing is a false premise. If they had, she would be the nominee.

[OzarkDem]

12. They're being told to get on the bus

and sit in the back. They've been insulted and denigrated time and time again by Obama and his surrogates during his campaign. Why would they want to help him?

[Gore1FL]

14. who are "they" again?

I don't think all women are sore losers. I think highly of women.

[GarbagemanLB]

15. What about the AA voters? Do you want them to sit at the back? It sounds like it...

[anigbrowl]

70. But they're used to it, so it's cool with the gender warriors

[JeanGrey]

51. I'm sorry but you are just wrong. Women have NOT been

insulted "time and time again". OTOH, Hillary has run a nasty race. I'm a woman and I support Obama. If you care to look at Oregon's seventy five thousand crowd, there are lots of women in it.

[OzarkDem]

55. The majority of Dem women disagree with you

and their opinions will count and will shape the future of the Democratic Party.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

58. The majority of women voted for Clinton. That does not mean they will vote for McCain in the GE.

[OzarkDem]

64. Past voting patterns for Dem women

when they are unhappy with the Dem candidate has been to not vote at all. They don't usually vote for Republicans, but stay home instead.

Its been a problem for Dems in the last few election cycles, both presidential and mid term. There's been a lot of struggle and debate within the party leadership over this problem for the last several years. Looks like they're prepared to jump off the cliff instead of deal with it. Men are such slow learners when it comes to women voters.

[EmilyAnne]

83. Then lets do what we can to snap them out of it. That's a ridiculous, irrational response to

disappointment. Your article seems to back that up. Hillary represents the idea of female empowerment to many women who have been treated poorly in a sexist society. That doesn't mean that Hillary is the only chance at female empowerment and it doesn't mean that another Democrat like Barack Obama isn't just as capable of working towards gender equality.

Do you really believe that Barack Obama will not work towards gender equality? I don't believe that McCain will. Furthermore, the Republicans have spoused many policies that destroy the lives of many women all over the world. Too much is it stake to play around.

[OzarkDem]

87. That's up to Dem leaders and Obama

[EmilyAnne]

107. Its also up to us, just like in any past election. We talk to our friends, to other Democrats and

we encourage them to vote.

As a feminist, there is no way in hell that I would support Barack Obama and no way in hell that I would try to persuade any of my friends to support them, either. What I mean is that I, in good conscience, will try to persuade my friends who are wary of him to vote for Obama if he is the Democratic nominee. I don't believe that he is sexist, but I do believe that the MSM has been sexist at times towards Hillary Clinton. I don't see how not supporting Barack Obama is the remedy for that.

I have lived all over the world in places like Russia, Uzbekistan, India and rural Mexico where I worked with underprivileged women and girls. I have seen, first hand, the emotional and physical damage that happens when women are denied safe and legal abortions. I would never play around with this election because I wanted a female in the White House. Its just not right, Ozark Dem. I'm sure that you KNOW that in your heart. We need to stick together to oust the Republicans.

[OzarkDem]

109. I encourage you to talk to your friends

But for the first time in the 30+ years I've been an active Dem, I won't be campaigning for this guy if he becomes the candidate. Its the second time I've had a poor candidate forced on me and I've got better things to do than waste my time again on a Dem candidate who can't win.

Ya'll have made this choice, sell it yourself.

I'll be very busy working for other Dems down-ticket, though.

[cali]

154. Bullshit. You continually just pull crap out of....

no evidence. Just made up crap, like no on showing up at Obama rallies in Ohio. Shameful

[americanstranger]

114. You keep asserting that.

Give me figures showing 'a mojority of Dem women' are unhappy with Obama.

A link will suffice. Telling me to 'do my own research' will not.

PTFU or STFU. thanks.

- as

[OzarkDem]

121. Check the exit polls

and STFU yourself.

[americanstranger]

129. Figures. You can't back it up.

You're just here to throw bombs.

Give me proof, or you're just blowing smoke.

You made the assertion. Let's see you back it up.

I say you cannot. Prove me wrong.

- as

[OzarkDem]

133. Here you go

All the stats and facts you need here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvuMDmqwwbI

[americanstranger]

134. Oh. Please.

That's propaganda.

You say millions of voters are unhappy. Show me concrete figures, not Hillary propaganda videos.

- as

[OzarkDem]

138. The video has the stats

Sorry, you don't want to face the truth. That's your problem, not mine.

[americanstranger]

142. It proves NOTHING.

You got nothing.

- as

[OzarkDem]

143. Then you didn't watch the video

Your problem, not mine.

[jsmirman]

136. I saw the Florida and Michigan bullshit and couldn't watch any more

does it cover anything else?

Because, immediately, I know anyone trying to pump this disgusting Florida-Michigan canard is either a liar or an idiot.

[americanstranger]

141. Yeah, it's pretty insulting.

That video proves nothing, yet it's being held up as proof that millions of women won't vote for Obama.

I don't buy it for a minute.

- as

[Arugula Latte]

118. Not this woman. Obama's campaign didn't insult me. Hillary's did.

Guess I'm too "elitist" for her newly found NASCAR tastes. :eyes:

[aaaaaa5a]

10. It's An Insult To History....

to compare the struggles of African Americans to the plight of white women.


"Give me a break... That's the biggest fairytale if I have ever head one!"

[OzarkDem]

13. Of course, women have never been victims of discrimination

and harassment because of their gender. Are you really that naive?

[Gore1FL]

21. an election process, however

where the woman candidate does not win, does not equate to discrimination. Especially when many women voted for Obama and many men voted for Hillary.

Pick and choose your battles better. This one is no-win.

[aaaaaa5a]

120. delete

[aaaaaa5a]

124. I Think You Misunderstand The Point....

I'm not saying that at all.

What I'm saying is that the historic discrimination faced by women in this country isn't close to the prejudice faced by African Americans.

I don't think you could find a credible historian that would disagree with that statement.

Just because one group (African Americans) has it tougher than the other group (white women) doesn't mean I endorse gender discrimination. I don't! But to equate the two struggles as historically equal in scope is factually inaccurate.


And I honestly think you know this!


You might favor one group over another (for personal interests) but you're not that naive!

[BlooInBloo]

16. It's not about who's been historically treated worse...

It's about whether or not Obama has run a sexist campaign.

He hasn't.

[OzarkDem]

22. Your opinion

Many, many women disagree and their opinion will count in November.

[anigbrowl]

30. How many?

I'd love to know what the size of this new movement amounts to. My guess is that it's about equal to 10% of Ron Paul supporters.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

33. I want to know too. Obama and Clinton are splitting women 40/60 in Clinton's favor.

It's not as though it were say...90/10.

[yourguide]

157. Please provide one example of how Obama

not the media, but Obama, has been sexist towards Senator Clinton.

[DJ13]

17. Has it ever occurred to you Clinton supporters that Hillary was just ....

......the wrong woman to pin your hopes on?

She has been in the Senate for 7 years, more than enough time to distinguish herself as being a true champion of the working class (beyond just gender), more than enough time to try to right her extremely high negatives.

But she didnt.

She made a few calculating votes that worked against the average American (IWR and the bankruptcy bill among others) and thought her name alone could carry her to victory.

She didnt even try, so maybe its time you Hillary folks stop thinking of her as representing all of womanhood and started looking at how she failed to live up to your standards?

[OzarkDem]

28. She's better qualified than Obama

The sad truth is that the Democratic party leadership still doesn't want a woman presidential candidate, even if she's the best candidate.

[DJ13]

31. Qualified at doing what?

As I said, she was the wrong woman to pin your hopes on.

[OzarkDem]

To be president

Don't worry, if Obama gets the nomination, you'll have a fast hard lesson in what a poor choice he is.

[DJ13]

43. What qualifies her more than him?

She never once held a security clearance as First Lady.

[anigbrowl]

128. Her special qualities. We can't tell you about them, they're secret.

[Youphemism]

67. On the other hand...

I think one of the reasons Obama has been doing so well is that he hasn't been in the system for decades, taking money and favors from people that he will have to repay when he gets into office.

I don't like experience that leads candidates to talk about "obliterating" countries causing us trouble in the middle of a campaign against an incumbent mindset that says foreign policy is more about war than about talking. That's not the kind of experience I value.

[Hippo_Tron]

103. We don't hand the nomination to the person with the most seniority

That's what the Republicans do which is why they nominate people like Bob Dole and John McCain. The nomination and the presidency aren't earned, they are won. Obama will win and Hillary will lose. That's how it works.

[Arugula Latte]

119. She has "experience" but little judgment. Judgment is more important.

Her calculated pro-IWR vote is a prime example of that. So is the crappy, insulting campaign she has run.

[eridani]

131. No candidate who can't think more than 2 weeks into the future is qualified

--to be president. You know candidates by who they hire. Obama hired organizers, and Clinton hired sociopathic shitstain manipulators like Mark Penn.

[NanceGreggs]

148. She's better qualified according to who?

You?

Makes me wonder why we bothered with this whole democratic process of asking the voters to decide. We should have just called YOU and asked YOU what YOU thought.

Yeah, the Democratic leadership doesn't want a "woman candidate" - that's what it's REALLY all about. Just ignore the fact that she ran a shitty campaign, lied about sniper-fire, exaggerated her experience, threw the kitchen sink, moved the goalposts on a daily basis, and 'played girl' whenever it suited her.

She LOST because she's female - it's as plain as the elbow on your face.

[VotesForWomen]

149. truth is, every other candidate in the the dem race was more qualified than Obama.

[NashVegas]

162. Wordy Word

[Eric J in MN]

40. Hillary Clinton didn't vote for the 2005 Bankruptcy Bill.

She voted against it by supporting a filibuster.

She missed the final vote to be in the hospital with her husband.

[DJ13]

48. Clinton and the Bankruptcy Law

Actually, Mrs. Clinton has a mixed record on the bankruptcy bill, which wended its way through Congress over the course of several years, and on fighting the banks, which are a major constituency and major source of campaign contributions in New York.

......


The bill popped up again 2001, which was Mrs. Clinton’s first year in the Senate. She worked with Republicans on it and was one of 36 Democrats who helped it pass the Senate, saying it had been improved from when she opposed it. Still, this version was vigorously opposed by consumer groups and unions, and ultimately did not become law.


http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/08/08/clinton-and-the-bankruptcy-law/

[LeFleur1]

115. Wow, That's Interesting

However upon examining her record we see that she has voted for liberal causes as many times as Obama. He voted for the Cheney energy bill, she didn't.
Please, there may be reasons that you don't support Hillary, but she has been a champion for the American people.
Tell me about those bills Obama has pushed through for working people.

[anonymous171]

19. If Hillary had +90% of the womens vote, wouldn't she be winning?

[Captain Hilts]

36. Women have NEVER voted as a bloc. They've leaned, but not as a bloc.

Conversely, black voters DO usually vote as a bloc.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

38. Really? Because this OP makes it seem like we elected a spokesperson for all women while I was out.

[OzarkDem]

44. That is changing

You're in for a very big surprise. Overall, 2008 may end up being a disaster for Dem leadership, but it will be a lesson they apparently need to learn about taking their biggest base of voters for granted.

[jsmirman]

102. And a wonderful disaster then for Roe v Wade. Good job!

You'll really be scoring one for women everywhere!!!

Oh- wait- that's if by scoring one for women you mean exposing them to crooked doctors, serious health risks, unnecessary deaths and control of their bodies by evil men who want to dictate their choices because THEY are the true chauvinists in our country.

Awesome!

[eridani]

132. A block that was better than 2/3 pro-Clinton in July 2007 n/t

[billyoc]

20. What about Irish Bikers?!

What are we, from New Orleans?

[ErinBerin84]

23. good grief.

I hope Cynthia has a fabulous time campaiging for John McCain in the Fall, and shifting virtually all of her policy positions that she had previously been a fan of.

[Zachstar]

25. Ozark I look forward to you eventually getting some pizza

Once DU switches to GE mode and you continue to try again to shove crap down our throats.

It is an outrage that you are still allowed to post here when you have stated that you have no intention of voting for Obama in the GE. And then you post this crap talking about sexism like it is racism. Guess what? They do not compare in the least bit but some do not care..

PLEASE LEAVE!

[OzarkDem]

34. Just had dinner, thanks

Quiche, in fact.

I've never said I wouldn't vote for Obama, only that I won't campaign for him or donate. He won't get my support, but other Dems will.

[Zachstar]

39. This

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6021743&mesg_id=6023587

Do you deny this post?

[Hippo_Tron]

104. Crickets...

[DerekJ]

26. Why the fuck do some Clintons supporters consider this election a vote against the tyranny of men?!!

:wtf:

[Zachstar]

32. Because some of them are using that supposed issue to hide another side issue.

[OzarkDem]

37. What?

Go ahead and tell us what's on your mind.

[anigbrowl]

27. Stop the presses!

[boppers]

29. Sexism and Racism still exist.

Nobody would question that.

Not winning a campaign, however, is not proof that the loss was *caused* by racism, or sexism, unless, of course, there was clear evidence of one or the other issues being a deciding factor.

I present West Virginia as an example. Voters there clearly stated that race was a deciding factor. Is there a different primary where voters stated gender as a deciding factor?

I honestly don't know, and would like to know, if there was a contest where Obama won because of voters sexism.


edit: tpyo, homonyms our hard

[Blondiegrrl]

35. Awwwwwww ...

It's an emergency! Dial WHINE-1-1!

[gabeana]

41. What a crock

All I see in that article is buch of sexism from those women in the article, Hillary, sorry is not a working class heroine, she sat at the table with the big boys her entire professional career thanks in part to be married to the Gov of Arkansas. Her advantages heavily outweighed that of Obama. Money her advantage in the begiginig, Name, Clinton vs Barack Hussein Obama, She also had connection i.e early lead on in Super Delegates and with this advantage she is second to Obama. She has benifited from sexism (women voting for her just because she is a woman) and energizing the racist vote




"If Hillary doesn't get the nomination, this man said, he'd not only vote for but work for McCain, "and I hate McCain."

"Why not Obama?"

"He's too inexperienced."

"And why else?" a woman down the bar asked.

"Because he's black."

"Thank you!" she replied.

More talk, a little heat, and the man exclaimed, "I'm not going to vote for the nigger!"

Some in the bar seemed tensed; they were "undecided." The man goaded them; that's not what they had discussed the other day. He laughed. Another man from across the bar said he knew whom he wasn't voting for: "the nigger."

The first man continued to proclaim, "I love Hillary." He and a friend said she probably should take the VP spot if it were offered; even if Obama gets the nomination, "he's not going to make it." Later he apologized for saying "nigger"; "I'm not a racist."

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080317/wypijewski/2

It's also interesting to note that in Ohio, 1-in-5 Democratic voters said race was an important factor in making their decision. In that group, 8-in-10 voted for Hillary Clinton.

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/03/04/73073...

One-fifth of white Ohio voters said race was an important issue to their vote, and those who did voted eight in 10 for Clinton. That compares with the one in five Democrats in Ohio who said gender was important, and they voted six in 10 for Clinton.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/03/05/e...

[OzarkDem]

47. So you're saying Dem women voters are racist?

Is that what you mean?

Are you sure you want to go there?

[gabeana]

61. are you sure you can read

never said Dem woman Voters are racist but Hillary does have the sexist vote, woman voting for her just because she is a woman (not all woman)
and that is sexism isn't it? And she has energized the racist vote men and women.
argue all you want but you know its true, by the way Hillary is not a self made woman she is living and surviving off the coattails of her husband not unlike other politicians who live off nepotism, don't you think

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

82. Seems as fair as calling Obama supports sexist...

The only problem was the poster you're responding to does not believe a vote for Hillary is anti black but you ssem to think a vote for Obama is anti Women..

[Life Long Dem]

42. I'd rather go to the back of the bus, than be thrown under the bus.

:applause: Thank you very much! Thankyou!

[JeanGrey]

45. Sexism has played practically NO ROLE in this race.

Hillary screwed this up herself with ego and arrogance. She and Bill used the race card in disgusting ways, she was treated much better.

[OzarkDem]

50. Sorry, but you can't tell others how to think

Women have formed their own opinions.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

*YOU* are saying this after you've been pretending to speak for all women this last week?

[OzarkDem]

59. Sorry, but you're wrong

[jsmirman]

62. There's a brilliant post. Funny how many Clintonistas are subject line only posters

substance is rare. Inflammatory, unsubtantiated statements are common.

[OzarkDem]

71. Keep it up

As always, Obama supporters work overtime winning the hearts and minds of Dem women voters. :sarcasm:

Dem women who support Clinton have had countless detailed policy discussions here, though if you're new to DU you wouldn't know that. We've made our case, proven our points, yet you still insist on insulting us.

Its obvious Obama supporters don't want the support of Clinton voters as they work so diligently to insult and demean them. Don't be surprised when they don't "get on your bus".

[jsmirman]

78. On these wedge "issues" you all keep driving, you typically have NOTHING

if you had substantive policy discussions elsewhere and earlier in the nomination season, bully for you.

If you would bring similar substance to these conversations that you all keep pushing - and that those of us who consider ourselves to be quite sane are finding perfectly INsane without the benefit of some actual supporting material- the response would be quite different.

But these subject line only drive by's that you and rodeodance and a few others keep doing over and over and over again- along with the refusal to actually engage with logic when your opinion only position is called out as wrong- is winning you no friends, no converts and no sympathy.

It comes across as baiting and following the orders of overlords who are trying to split us apart with issues that aren't really issues at all.

[OzarkDem]

91. Most Clinton supporters don't post here any longer

They've been insulted, harrassed and verbally attacked more than in any previous primary campaign in recent memory.

They post elsewhere these days.

[jsmirman]

96. Yes, but YOU are still here. Which means you are not relieved of your obligation

to post substance and support when you make inflammatory statements in your subject lines!!!

If they used to post well-reasoned defenses of their opinions, it would be just great if you would take after this tradition.

[OzarkDem]

98. Have plenty

What do you want to discuss? My focus is health care reform.

[jsmirman]

105. I've already told you. When you post something to stir up hate towards Obama

I would like you to support it with logic and be willing to debate the issue that you insist on raising. Drive by posting of subject lines should not be acceptable. I don't make the rules, though, so that's just my opinion, but I think it sucks.

And right now THE issue is how this nomination season is going to conclude. If you want to have a substantive discussion after that about whether this is being appropriately addressed by our party's platform, that would be wonderful. And btw, it should be useful to see how our party is addressing it and how McCain is treating the relevant issues.

Because let's be clear- your focus has not seemed to be on health care reform in recent days. It has seemed to be on painting Obama's upcoming victory in as negative and divisive a light as possible.

And that is why it is these things that I challenge you to back up with substance. Because your views on health care are not a proper substitute for supporting the venom you're putting out there.

[Ichingcarpenter]

111. If she really, really, really says that health care reform is 'her' thing

She would have supported Dennis Kucinich's Plan for healthcare
She never did in any of the threads supporting his plans still in Congress.

As far as healthcare plans go it was Dennis, Edwards, Obama, then Clinton.
as reviewed by progressive literature and studies that would institute real change.

Any of them are ten times better than what McCain or the Repuglicans
advocate. So that argument that it is on healthcare issues is mute.

nuf said.

[OzarkDem]

112. I did and still do

and have told Kucunich myself. I'm a long-time Kucinich supporter.

[Ichingcarpenter]

122. Yeah, I believe that

LIke I believe Saddam had Weapons of Mass Destruction
which is why I supported going to war after not
reading a report. I believe that cluster bombs are necessary so I voted for that too.

[OzarkDem]

123. Call him up and ask him

I know him personally.

[Ichingcarpenter]

130. Call him up and ask him if he knows OzarkDem?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[eridani]

137. You could argue about the relative positions of Clinton and Obama

--but that would be irrelevant. It is up to US to get HR 676 passed. I'll bet that any Dem president would sign it.

[OzarkDem]

140. I can almost guarantee you

Obama would not sign it. He has a past record of letting insurance companies write health care reform legislation.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/09/23/in_illinois_obama_dealt_with_lobbyists/

[eridani]

155. Like Clinton did in 1994, you mean?

When the smaller companies that would have gotten cut out came up with Harry and Louise, did the big boys who wrote the legislation then stand up for their product? Nope--they left Clinton twisting in the wind. That's why both candidates are too frightened to specifically advocate single payer, though both on the record as having said it was obviously superior. However, if We the People could prove to either that it indeed was politically possible by actually getting the law passed, I don't think either would refuse to sign it.

[eridani]

135. Mine too. And I am not the slightest bit interested in the piddly differences--

--between two completely inadequate plans. If We the People organize and push hard for HR 676, we could get it. And if we succeeded, either candidate would sign it in a New York minute.

[JeanGrey]

63. Women? Do you now claim to speak for ALL WOMEN?

I am just sick of listening to the threats of "you WILL put Hillary in or else". Your threats mean nothing. You continued to prop her up no matter what she did, and continued to claim against all odds that she was winning when you knew good and well she wasn't.

You don't speak for "all" women and you are going to get the surprise.

[OzarkDem]

68. Wrong again

and insulting and preaching at me is getting you farther and farther from gaining any support for your candidate.

[JeanGrey]

72. Look. I do not mean to insult you - but your entire "my feathers

are ruffled because you didn't give it to Hillary" is just not making an inroads with people. I know you wanted your candidate to win. I'm going to say something most people won't. Hillary had HUGE negatives going into this, which most people seem to ignore. Then she actually thought that she had it in the bag and no one dared to challenge her, so much so that she ran a horrible campaign and lost it on Super Tuesday. She and Bill have gotten by with a lot on the backs of African Americans. I guess they just never stopped to think what would happen when a real person of color with qualifications challenged her. Let's face it. The Clinton's aren't used to losing. Then they got real nasty in their campaign. I personally have been very glad that Obama has handled her with so much dignity when he could have been really nasty.

Then she pulled out Bill, and let's face it, he just doesn't have the pull he used to, in fact, he just irritates a lot of people, and he DID irritate a lot of them during this campaign. It brought back all that Clinton "fatigue". I know a lot of people don't want to know about it but it is still there.

Obama is going to win. If you withhold your vote, that is your right to do so. But the sexist thing won't wash.

[OzarkDem]

76. Millions of women disagree with you

[anigbrowl]

84. Sez you. I don't buy it.

[NanceGreggs]

125. Okay.

Name them.

[Ichingcarpenter]

146. Scarlet O'Hara is one

Elizabeth Bennet, Annie Wilkes and Lady McBeth

[NanceGreggs]

147. Yeah, but they're negated by ...

... would-have-been Obama supporting females like Scout Finch, Jo March and Melanie Wilkes!

:hi:

[americanstranger]

127. Prove it.

Numbers, please.

- as

[Mags]

163. I agree with you. You are right.

[JeanGrey]

166. And millions more do.

[yourguide]

158. Yes, I am a woman and I am voting for Obama.

[VotesForWomen]

150. if O was a black woman would (s)he be our nominee right now? nuff said

[jsmirman]

46. Absent in that article: anything not preposterous linking Obama to sexism

we have the incredible stretch of his comment that she is "likeable enough" being cited as sexism, and Ferraro's totally unsubstantiated, stand alone statement that "I think Obama was terribly sexist."

Let's start with Geraldine. The idea that this woman is entertaining the ridiculous charade of not voting for Obama is repulsive. I guess it wasn't enough to be an integral part of the most feeble Democratic campaign of my lifetime, now she has to try to sabotage one of our more vital campaigns.

And her statement is backed by nothing. It's what she "thinks." Wonderful. How about we see some actual solid links between Obama and sexism before throwing something so incendiary out there???

Than we have the "likeable enough" comment. And this has some sort of link to Clinton's gender how? Is likeability suddenly a quotient that only female candidates are measured by? Really? Hmm. Funny how we have a current president who has virtually nothing going for him except this specific factor. Bob Dole was judged on "likeability." Dukakis was. Nixon was judged on that very factor in one of the most famous elections in our history (losing out to the extremely "likeable" JFK).

Candidates have been judged on that basis as far back as our earliest political history. Why is it sexist for Obama to note that Hillary has a "likeability" issue? She would have the same issue if she were a man. She doesn't have the common touch that Bill has, and that's not so much about them being different genders as it is about them being completely different people.

[jsmirman]

69. Seriously, please. Someone point out what in that article or anywhere else ties Obama to sexism

only things that are not completely preposterous count.

1...2...3... GO!

[JohnnyLib2]

49. K & R, because the article itself is worth a read.

It mentions the basically historical nature of this campaign as well as the varying interpretations of HRC's potential loss. Other than trying to pretend that there is no such issue at all in the U.S. today, what's the problem with bringing the piece to attention here? :shrug:

[bain_sidhe]

53. In point of fact...

Women are NOT the "most loyal constituency." Not in the primaries (if you're counting what percentage of their votes go to Hillary) nor in the previous general elections.

Check the numbers. In the General elections, women generally favor the Democrats, but the split is something like 55-45 (sometimes less). African Americans split something closer to 80-20 (often even higher).

Still, I get that a lot of women see their dream of a female president dying along with Hillary's chances. I feel that myself, and find it painful.

[OzarkDem]

56. If that's your opinion

then you won't miss us in November. Good luck.

[jsmirman]

66. What the hell are you talking about? That was fact not opinion the poster presented

:argh:

Ok, YOU personally, we don't need. Please, just go away with your BS.

But just because African Americans are our most loyal constituency, what in the world in that statement suggests we don't want or need women's votes, as well???

How the hell do you conclude that? What, precisely, is wrong with you?

[bain_sidhe]

81. Not opinion

It's just a fact. And another fact: if women had voted Democratic by just 2 more percentage points in 2000 we wouldn't have had an 8 year nightmare in this country. If they'd voted Democratic by 2 more percentage points in 2004, we'd be well on our way to fixing the damage bushit caused in his one-term administration.

I'm a woman. I remember being ANGRY that so many women voted for Bush instead of Gore and Kerry.

In fact, early in the primaries, I was even a little miffed that more women weren't supporting Hillary. But I got over it.

Don't tell me how much it hurts to see a dream die. I've lived through it. Sucks. Big time. But there are larger things in my life than my own preferences, and one of them is FIXING THE DAMN COUNTRY. I'd love to see Hillary get the chance to do that, but the fact is, she won't. I've got to support the one who DOES have that chance.

[OzarkDem]

85. They didn't switch to GOP

Check the stats again, they biggest percentage who voted for Dem candidates before simply didn't vote at all.

[jsmirman]

89. "there are larger things in my life than my own preferences, (like) FIXING THE DAMN COUNTRY"

truer and more admirable words have rarely been spoken.

This should be on a damn bumper sticker.

:thumbsup:

[ekwhite]

139. Thank you bain_sidhe

Fixing the Damn Country needs to be our top priority. You are absolutely right.

[jsmirman]

57. Thanks. It just seems if we're going to be factual AA's are our most loyal constituency

and history doesn't exactly show them always being rewarded for their exceedingly consistent support.

[OzarkDem]

73. Wrong again

Not to begrudge AA Dem voters, they're great. But women represent an average of 52 - 55% of the Dem voting base. The Democratic Party has been the party of women voters for the last couple of decades.

[jsmirman]

79. You seem to have trouble with distinctions. That would make them our LARGEST base

NOT, however, our most LOYAL base.

[jsmirman]

86. And btw, these women who would help elect McCain which will have generation long impact on ALL women

are the most anti-women women I've ever encountered. Have your pity party. Make your pity protest. And screw women for the next thirty years as McCain replaces Ginsburg and Stevens with the next pair like Roberts and Alito. I'm sure the generations to come will thank you for fucking things up for them.

:mad:

[OzarkDem]

88. Don't tell me

tell the millions of women who feel otherwise. I don't speak for them and certainly can't make your "sales pitch" for you. BTW, I'd suggest you refine it a bit to be less insulting.

[jsmirman]

Well, if they're less instransigent and annoying and petulant and rockheaded

than certain people... it won't be hard to make the sales pitch considerably less insulting.

:hi:

[OzarkDem]

92. Again, way to win supporters

huge, fatal flaw in the Obama campaign :hi:

[jsmirman]

97. Let's just say I've done a bit of campaigning- your door would not be one to linger at

there are plenty of reasonable, rational people worth taking a crack at.

[OzarkDem]

100. You're on ignore

:hi:

[jsmirman]

110. Oh noes!!! For the record, I don't put people like Ozark on ignore

because I want to know what hate they're pumping this week.

[Gore1FL]

54. I guess NARAL took all the front seats? n/t

[MrsT]

65. Anyone who thinks they are being told to "shut up" is an idiot (probably applies to the OP)

No one (other than a few dummies on the internet) told supporters of Biden, Edwards, Richardson, Kucinich and Dodd to "shut up," they just didn't get the votes. No one (other than a few dummies on the internet) is telling Hillary's supporters to "shut up." They are just getting outvoted.

You need to drop the victim shit and start placing blame where it belongs: Hillary's advisers. She had this nomination in her hand, and they ran her campaign into the ground.

When are you going to go over to FR and start working for McCain? It sure would help make this place be a bit nicer.

Oh and, by the way, Sen. Clinton would think some of you antics are ridiculous. I am sure of it.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

77. Nominated!

:thumbsup:

[jsmirman]

80. If you are really a Hillary supporter who is being this rational, God bless you

nm

[MrsT]

90. I don't post much

because I got tired of being accused of being a "fake" Hillary supporter because I *gasp* don't think she is 100% right and Obama is 100% wrong. It isn't that hard to be a Clinton supporter and admit she has made mistakes at the same time. If you are an Obama supporter, I hope you can do the same for your candidate.

[jsmirman]

95. Hell yes I can. I'm a staunch Democrat who willingly admitted the Clinton's failings

when they became so apparent during Bill's terms. It hurt to do it, but I demand honesty from the other side and expect nothing less from our side and myself.

Turns out, it has made it much easier for me to feel consistent in being so upset with their actions during this go round.

I think and hope that you only could be thought to be "fake" over here because we're getting such a skewed perspective on what the bulk of Hillary supporters are actually like.

[BlooInBloo]

99. Ok folks - take all of this rationality to anotherr forum. It clearly doesn'tt belong here!

:P

[OzarkDem]

101. Good luck!

:hi:

[ekwhite]

145. Absolutely

He is not perfect, by a long shot (57 states anyone?). But one thing he has been able to do is effective realize a 50-state strategy and win the Democratic primary. We will see if he can be as effective in the fall.

Mrs. Clinton's problem is that she has been inside the beltway for too long. A few years away from Washington would do her a world of good.

[ima_sinnic]

93. Cynthia Ruccia a "sales director for Mary Kay"?? GOOGLE IS YR FRIEND

Cynthia Ruccia is Franklin County Democratic Party Executive Committee member, and 1996 congressional candidate from Columbus.

Some fucking "democrat," now threatening to vote for McCain if her pouty little asshole wants aren't fulfilled.

Fuck all these fake "feminists" who will vote for McCain, with no regard for the consequences of that, the end of Roe v. Wade. and fuck Hillary and her stupid victim BULLSHIT.

[Raine1967]

94. Just remember who the sexist is in the General Election...

John McCain.

[Hippo_Tron]

106. Face it, Obama ran a better campaign

We had two very good candidates and Obama ran a strategy that got him more delegates than she did. If she had focused her resources more wisely she probably would have won. I don't doubt that sexism exists, but it didn't stop her from getting the nomination. Her reliance on Mark Penn's bad advice did that.

[OzarkDem]

108. Not if he's alienated half of the Dem base

The campaign he's run in the primary will hurt him in the GE. Maybe he doesn't care, who knows?

[jsmirman]

113. And how, one might ask, has OBAMA's campaign been responsible for any alienation?

By winning, apparently. What horse shit.

I really would like to see one non-crazy, non-preposterous piece of supporting evidence that anything Obama has done in his campaign has been responsible for alienating Clinton supporters. He's bent over backwards not to be an asshole to her. I honestly have no fucking idea what they think supports this concept. Because all they do is bitch about it, but they never substantiate ANYTHING.

Of course, this nutter has me on ignore, so maybe someone else can provide anything but the most meager scrap of "evidence."

[VotesForWomen]

151. well, his supporters have called me a racist and hillary a bitch enough times that i feel a little..

well, alienated.

[jsmirman]

159. But this is just a message board. Again, what have Obama or even his surrogates done?

We're not his surrogates- we're just posters on a message board.

[Prophet 451]

116. A pox on both your houses!

If everyone isn't willing to put their own pettiness aside for the good of the world, they deserve McCain.

[OzarkDem]

117. I think a lot of women don't see much difference

Not saying I agree, but there isn't much distinction and a lot of these women agree.

[yewberry]

144. I'd like to point something out here.

Sexism is real. Sexism is curse and a weight that has hung around the necks of women and still does. It will continue to be, regardless of who the nominee is.

As a kid, I marched for the ERA in DC. Been in countless 'Take Back the Night' events. Stood for reproductive rights, wrote letters, signed petitions, agitated on just about every level. That said, though, I haven't been a Clinton supporter. I don't hate her, I just haven't been drawn to her positions and have been very turned off by the campaign.

And now, here we are, having people assert that somehow a Clinton nomination would be an answer to the sexism that women have faced in their lives. Yes, it would be a wonderful thing to have a female president, and about damned time. However, having Clinton be the nominee would not change sexism. I understand being disappointed that one's candidate is not going to be the nominee, but I don't understand this reaction that we're seeing.

A Clinton nomination might be a validation of the experience of women, but the failure of her nomination is not an invalidation of the experience of women.

I want the women in the OP to get that. I want them to understand the danger we could be in if they refuse to understand that.

[JohnnyLib2]

156. Thank you. You've made a profound statement:

"A Clinton nomination might be a validation of the experience of women, but the failure of her nomination is not an invalidation of the experience of women."

Those words represent my wife and any of the (women) friends we still have contact with since the ERA days, or before. They do "get it," whether Clinton supporters or not. We will continue to address sexism, beyond this one event in a very long social movement.

One point of disagreement: I see risks in any pressure on the types of statements quoted, or the author, to simply shut up.

[barack the house]

152. That is the thing though African Americans are the loyal voters some women went for bush.

It's how he got into power African Americans by experience knew what he would bring. Not to say all women though just enough to make the difference. Plus it is never anybody's time, the voters decide and then it is their time anything else then democracy is misunderstood or disrespected.

[reflection]

160. Boy this is some tired, played-out nonsense. n/t

[sfaprog]

161. Well, if Marilu Sochor, 48, from Columbus, OH, says Hillary lost because of sexism, it must be true!

Seriously, talk about an OP as light as air. No substance at all, nothing but a few women's hurt feelings that Hillary didn't get the nomination, striking out against anybody they can, even Obama, who has supported women's rights enough to get a 100 rating from NARAL.

Reverse sexism at its most disgusting, since its blind rage could lead to another Repuke in the WH.

[Buzz Clik]

164. You are in no position to speak of "gender issues" if you are willing to abandon Roe v Wade.

You, my friend, are a fraud.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6026002&mesg_id=6026078

[stratomagi]

165. Feel free to flame away but

I really don't see how sexism has played a major roll in this race, and I'm talking about observing it from the ground level. As with Kerry in 04 a majority of the volunteers and staff I worked with in Pittsburgh were women. When Sebelius was here she said that she doesn't get how women can't see Obama as a strong womens candidate. She said he is sympathetic to womens issues because he was raised by a single mother, is married to a successful career woman and has two little girls!

Like i've stated before the feminist thing to do is to make up your own mind reguardless of the sex of the candidate, and by using the argument that people are voting against Hillary because they are sexist is really insulting to the women who have chosen Obama.