Stop beating dead primary horses

[UndertheOcean]

http://media.www.centralfloridafuture.com/media/storage/paper174/news/2008/05/19/Opinions/Stop-Beating.Dead.Primary.Horses-3372953.shtml


Stop beating dead primary horses
Jeffrey Riley


There are seedy things afoot in the 2008 presidential elections.

Back in the day, it was decided throughout the land that Florida and Michigan would not count toward the delegate numbers in the Democratic primary.

By now, we all probably know the story behind it. The Florida Democratic Party and the Democratic National Convention decided to have a contest and see who could urinate the farthest. The result over the botched moving of the primary date was Florida not having any delegates counted when the big convention happens in Denver.

So that was that. Florida and Michigan are scratches. The primary votes were nothing but a glorified high school popularity contest. Neither Obama nor Clinton did any campaigning in the state, and Obama didn't even have his name on the ballot in Michigan.

It is no good that it turned out that way. Democratic voters in Florida and Michigan deserve the chance to select who they darn well want to. The idea of something as trivial as the date of the primary being the reason to throw out votes is idiotic, but that is beside the point now. What happened, happened. It is dead and gone, a mistake to hopefully be learned from as we continue the quest to perfect the process of democracy.

Or is it?

New York Sen. Hillary Clinton is trying pretty hard to get the delegates counted from the two neglected states.

~SNIP~

That's right, she kicked the crap out of Obama in both states. Who would have thought that she would win in a state where her opponent was not even on the ballot?

Attempting to count Florida and Michigan is a punch in the face to proper democracy.

The primaries were not run fairly. Trying to dig them up from their lowly graves just makes it look like she is grasping for straws.

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~Rest of opinion at link~

[Toucano]

1. "Attempting to count Florida and Michigan is a punch in the face to proper democracy."

And doing nothing about is is what? A tongue bath?

It's a mess! It should never have been allowed to occur at all.

The blame goes to the DNC and the state parties, IMO.

[movonne]

2. Why the DNC??? the state party decided to push the point and was

told what the rules were and they went ahead anyway...rules are rules and we all have to abide by them..just because you don't like some of the rules it does not mean you can do what you want...

[MonkeyFunk]

4. The DNC

should've fixed the problem of states feeling left out because of Iowa and New Hampshire's special status. They didn't.

The DNC created this arbitrary and draconian penalty - it didn't have to be this way.

[papau]

8. Well said - the automatic half delegate loss would have caused no problem but Dean/Obama wanted zero

[intaglio]

14. Ahhhh, Yes, the DNC now just remind me

Who was in charge of the DNC during the rule changes and whose campaign do they work for?

Whilst you're at it you might like to remind people about who said that Michigan's votes "would not count"?

And of course it was the DNC have been trying to arrange fair revotes - only to have been turned down flat by functionaries of which Primary campaign?

And who only had one advert run in Florida and Michigan, because it was nationally aired, whilst their opponent made personal appearances and had mail-shots and targetted ads?

Of course you will either ignore this or lie about it, just like your heroine, so I think you should get out now and go support McAnus as you have threatened because Hillary cannot win

[Toucano]

5. Better to disenfranchise 8% of the U.S. population?

Rules are ALWAYS negotiable. Politics is the art of compromise (that's easy to forget after the last seven years, I know).

The DNC should have seen this shit storm coming and WORKED OUT a solution.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. When McAullife was chair of the DNC he had a small toodoo with

the Michigan Party... and he had only half of the delegation seated.

Amazing how things change when places are switched

[Toucano]

10. Who cares? Do you think that establishes a precedent?

One leading criticism or (or satisfying comforts to his insane supporters) of W is that he is UNCHANGING. In the face of different circumstances and new information, he refuses to alter his position.

Now on DU, it seems popular to criticize a person who DOES change their position when the circumstances change.

I think I need a neck brace to protect myself from the whiplash when I log on to DU!

MI and FL had a stupid idea about moving their primaries (in FL it was the republican legislature - small pass for them) and the DNC responds with a further stupid idea of leaving 24 million people with no say in who the nominee for president is.

Now that's some kind of wisdom! What LEADERSHIP!

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Get a neck brace... but reality is that they agreed to them damn rules

By the way as an EDWARD'S supporter I know WHO the presumptive nominee is

I don't like him that much more than YOUR CANDIDATE, but will VOTE FOR HIM IN NOVEMBER

And it is time you folks grow the fuck up... when a candidate emerges we move to GE mode. Many of us have

And there you are in our rear view mirror

While you guys are talking this up... both Obama and McCain are going at it

Yep, FREE CLUE... the GE is on

Get in line, or get out of the way...

Your choices in Nov, yes this is about November now, are as follows

STAY HOME

VOTE MCCAIN

VOTE THIRD PARTY

WRITE HER IN

VOTE OBAMA

Them are it

Grow UP... stamping feet and trowing a tanter tantrum is funny when my cockatiel does it, or my three year old nephew, not adults

By the way the problem you are having is with situational ethics, look it up

[Toucano]

13. You've got it ALL wrong.

First, as I have repeatedly said, I DO NOT SUPPORT A CANDIDATE IN THE 2008 PRIMARIES!

I like all the candidates (except Biden who's a total worm, IMHO).
I did not vote in my primary.
I have not contributed a dime to a federal candidate since 2004.
I don't know a single democrat in the flesh world who dislikes Obama or Clinton to the extent I see on DU.

That doesn't mean I can't comment on the way the race is unfolding or the way DU is reacting to it.

Secondly, the handling of MI and FL has been a ROYAL FUCK UP long before Clinton started harping about it. The DNC and the state parties have created an absurdly anti democratic situation that left 8% of the US population without a vote in the primary. SMART!

If you think for one second that if the tables were reversed, Obama's team would not be doing the exact same thing, then I think you are naive.

The "rules" are defined by the players and are NEGOTIABLE, as is everything in politics.

Clinton has always been an 'ends justify the means' practitioner. Why should we expect anything different now?

Thirdly, situational ethics is not a problem. It's a perfectly valid principle. Unless you're Antonin Scalia.

Delegates from FL and MI will be seated at the convention in some fashion. We will not be pissing away 44 electoral votes.

Finally, if you thought the GE were truly on, you would not have wasted time on this thread. There are plenty of McCain threads to participate in. :P

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. The GE is ON

And I do not consider a waste of time to tell people to grow up

[cottonseed]

3. This is why Hillary cares about MI and FL now.

She thought it would be over February 5th:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saBU6ux0hsQ

She thought wrong and now she needs to make every insane argument possible to continue on with this lost campaign of hers.

[Toucano]

7. That's such a bogus criticism.

ANY candidate who would not do what Clinton is doing now regarding Michigan and Florida would not be worth their salt.

I'm not a Clinton supporter, but I definitely want a candidate who will fight tooth and nail to get what they want. I think we all know that Gore and Kerry could have fought harder about Florida and Ohio.

I think if the tables were turned, Obama would be fighting just as hard (which is why we're so lucky).

[papau]

9. 111 delegate catch up by Hillary is the reason Obama opposes

[phrigndumass]

12. The truth about Florida and Michigan ...

is that their elections couldn't be certified in compliance with the rules that were established before these states changed their election dates. They were certified non-compliant and removed from the process, pending resolution. The resolution stage begins May 31, and the decision made by the Rules and Bylaws Committee will be made in the form of a recommendation to the Credentials Committee, which won't meet until a later date.

Under the rules, in order to certify these two states in compliance, the number of pledged delegates in these states will be cut in half and none of the superdelegates in these states (except the add-ons) will be allowed a vote.

Florida:
Was 185 pledged delegates, will be 93 pledged delegates.
Was 26 superdelegates, will be 2 superdelegates (add-ons).

Michigan:
Was 128 pledged delegates, will be 64 pledged delegates.
Was 28 superdelegates, will be 3 superdelegates (add-ons).

The rules came first (DNC), and they set the guidelines for the election dates.

Michigan and Florida actually had their election dates originally set within the guidelines, and their state contests were certified in compliance. Then the two states changed the election dates after their original plans were certified compliant, and after the candidates had agreed to the rules established.

This attempt to undermine the rules, after they were established, was made by the two states, not the DNC. Blaming the DNC for this is like blaming a parent for setting boundaries for their child. If a child steps outside the boundaries set by their parent, shouldn't the child be reprimanded? Or should the parent be expected to change their boundaries? Those who blame the DNC are expecting the parent to change.

Regardless of how the halved delegates are distributed, Obama has the majority of pledged delegates in the bag (even if he gets zero in Michigan).

More information

Thanks for posting the article, UndertheOcean :hi: