Obama Flip-Flops on Iran, cont'd- We need Hillary

[2rth2pwr]

Obama Flip-Flop on Iran

Obama yesterday-

"I mean think about it. Iran, Cuba, Venezuela, these countries are tiny compared to the Soviet Union. They don't pose a serious threat to us the way the Soviet Union posed a threat to us....You know, Iran, they spend one-one hundredth of what we spend on the military. If Iran ever tried to pose a serious threat to us, they wouldn't stand a chance.And we should use that position of strength that we have to be bold enough to go ahead and listen. That doesn't mean we agree with them on everything. We might not compromise on any issues, but at least we should find out other areas of potential common interest, and we can reduce some of the tensions that has caused us so many problems around the world."

Here's the video- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ew5qP2oPdtQ&eurl

Obama today in Montana-

"Iran is a grave threat. It has an illicit nuclear program. It supports terrorism across the region and militias in Iraq. It threatens Israel's existence. It denies the Holocaust..."

http://weblogs.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/blog/2008/05/obama_counters_mccain_on_appea.html


Words matter. We can't afford on the job training when our foreign policy is already screwed up.

Hillary is the answer.

[GarbagemanLB]

1. How many SDs have announced for her since her 'gamechanger' in WV?

Apparently the SDs don't agree with you. There's always 2016!

[anonymous171]

2. Hillary has no foreign policy experience either. Except a speech, but she doesn't think those matter

[PBS Poll-435]

3. He has a tendancy to say different things to different groups.

It's the BOMO.

[anigbrowl]

14. Especially when people only quote half of what he says

Read the links in the OP. His position is entirely consistent, and he makes much the same remarks about the USSR.

[PBS Poll-435]

23. Is Obama FINALLY going to take a stand on the USSR?

It is about time...

:rofl:

[anigbrowl]

26. That you think that's clever shows how ignorant you are.

[PBS Poll-435]

32. BooHoo -

Jaysuz, what is wrong with some of the Obama enthusiasts today?

I thought it was over*!

[anigbrowl]

41. Here's a tissue. Feel better.

[PBS Poll-435]

47. LOL...I don't think I am the one needing it.

:cry:

[bvar22]

101. Hillary did claim her base is Low Information Voters (LIV).

DU offers proof!

[Colobo]

4. It's over, bro.

[LakeSamish706]

5. Delete!

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ananda]

7. The first statement sounded so good.

The second statement sounds as though
he's worried about manufactured opinion.
Ugghh.

[anigbrowl]

24. Clearly you didn't read the link, but just the one line quoted by the OP

...who's not exactly an honest reporter. Here's more...

"Anything but their failed cowboy diplomacy that has produced no results is called appeasement. "Here's the truth: the Soviet Union had thousands of nuclear weapons and Iran doesn't have a single one. But when the world was on the brink of nuclear Holocaust, Kennedy talked to Khrushchev and he got those missiles out of Cuba. Why shouldn't we have the same courage and confidence to talk to our enemies? That's what strong countries do. That's what strong presidents do.

"The Soviet Union had the ability to destroy the world several times over, had satellites spanning the globe, had huge masses of conventional military power, all directed at destroying us. So, I've made it clear for years that the threat from Iran is grave. But what I've said is that we should not just talk to our friends. We should be willing to engage our enemies as well. That's what diplomacy is all about."

"Iran is a grave threat. It has an illicit nuclear program. It supports terrorism across the region and militias in Iraq. It threatens Israel's existence. It denies the Holocaust. The reason Iran is so much more powerful than it was a few years ago is because of the Bush-McCain policy of fighting in Iraq and refusing to pursue direct diplomacy with Iran. They're the ones who have not dealt with Iran wisely."

[2rth2pwr]

40. What difference does that make? My point is one day he is saying that they are a tiny problem,

the next he says they are a grave threat.

[Boojatta]

71. A virus can be a grave threat.

Does it follow that a virus isn't tiny? If you have an excellent vaccine that protects you against the virus, then do you conclude that the virus is not a grave threat to anyone?

What methods does Obama propose for dealing with the grave threat? Does he propose the response that terrorists want: over-reaction?

What do you think about Obama's proposal for dealing with the grave threat? Do you think that it is an over-reaction? Do you think that Obama's proposal would be appropriate only if the threat were much greater?

[Labors of Hercules]

79. perfect analogy!

Way to out-nitpick a nitpicker!! :toast:

[Patchuli]

92. It's OVER. Clinton is finished.

Now it's time to stop the "kitchen sink" politics and get behind the Democratic candidate. IT IS OVER.

[crimsonblue]

94. what difference does it make?

Well, context is everything. Words, by themselves, have little to no meaning. It is the context in which the words were used that matters. To conflate Obama's remarks so much as to appear flip-floppish is disingenuous at best, and outright ludicrous and hateful at worst.

[anigbrowl]

110. It is tiny compared to the USSR, but still important

What about your username? do you mean 2rth or 2pwr? Why are you flip-flopping on this critical issue?

Sorry, but that's about as significant as this 'what does Obama mean, exactly' analysis. If you read the transcript of both speeches, his position is consistent and I don't think that putting minor details of phraseology under a microscope serves to inform anyone.

[lumpy]

112. Iran is not a direct threat to the US as yet in terms of attacking

the US. Iran is a threat to Middle Eastern countries if they do gain nuclear weapons. Israel would be in a vulnerable position even if equal in nuclear capabilities. Diplomatic efforts should be immediately put into effect NOW to possibly avoid a conflict that will affect not only the MidEast but the world. The US really should take a neutral stance re.Israel AND Iran and seriously work with the UN and world leaders using diplomatic means. Enough of tough talk and pro Israel right or wrong.

[LisaM]

8. Well.....I don't really see any difference

between saying that Iran knows we "could" obliterate them (which is what Hillary said) and Obama's saying, "if Iran ever tried to pose a serious threat to us, they wouldn't stand a chance."

They are saying the exact same thing. Except that Keith Olbermann won't make a BFD about it.

Neither has said that they intend to do anything to Iran, both have pointed out that we have far superior military strength.

[anonymous171]

9. So Iran is as dangerous as the Soviet Union was? I had no fucking idea.

[2rth2pwr]

44. Al Queda killed more Americans on 9/11 than the Soviet Union ever did.

[beezlebum]

56. good riddance.

it takes quite a lot for me to decide to put someone on ignore- i believe firmly in discussion, and putting my fingers in my ears gets me nowhere.

but i've come to realize that you aren't here to discuss.

your concern is overwhelming, your questions quite obtuse, your revelations nonsensical, your "discussion"- obfused.

buh-bye. thanks for playing.

[2rth2pwr]

63. You sound like Dr. Suess. LOL!

[anonymous171]

67. What does Al-Qaeda have to do with Iran?

[Cali_Democrat]

70. LOL!!

Busted!!!

Only a Neocon would think Iran = Al Qaeda.


That poster has beeen totally exposed.

[2rth2pwr]

109. Al Qaeda was able to cause more damage to us than the USSR. The threat level

is not based on military spending or the amount of nuclear weapons. Just because Iran is smaller than the Soviet Union, doesn't mean that it is a tiny threat.

[EmilyAnne]

69. What does al-queda have to do with Iran? Remember, the 9/11 terrorists were mostly

Saudis.

[Cali_Democrat]

72. Not to mention Al Qaeda is mostly Sunni...

and Iran is Shia. The OP sounds like McCain. It's absolutely pathetic.

[EmilyAnne]

75. Well, I guess if we just obliterate them all, we won't really have to worry about those pesky

little details.

[bvar22]

102. Pssst. Hillary's base = Low Information Voters (LIV).

!

[2rth2pwr]

78. "Iran is a grave threat. It has an illicit nuclear program. It supports terrorism across the region

The point is that whether Sunni or Shia, Hamas or Hezbollah, the world faces new threats.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

73. Al Qaeda = Sunni, Iran = Shia.

[2rth2pwr]

76. "Iran is a grave threat. It has an illicit nuclear program. It supports terrorism across the region

"Iran is a grave threat. It has an illicit nuclear program." It supports terrorism across the region..."

[Starbucks Anarchist]

80. You implied Iran and Al Qaeda were one and the same.

Clearly, they are not.

[2rth2pwr]

82. No, I implied that the danger to us is not a direct relationship to how many nuclear weapons

a country or organization has.

[Chisox08]

89. Wow the RW logic baffles me

Iran just like Iraq has no connection to Al Queda. We made Iran a threat by invading Iraq. We removed Iran's enemy and replaced it with a government that is friendly to Iran.
The Soviet Union was a huge threat. Iran can not even hope to be on the same level of a threat that the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union had the nuclear capabilities to obliterate America. Iran's military is just as weak as Saddams was.

[chascarrillo]

105. OH MY FUCKING GOD!!!

I'd laugh if this wasn't so sad. And it is very sad.

[2rth2pwr]

107. How so?

[lumpy]

113. Since Iran at this point does not have long range, or no, nuclear

capability, a threat to the continental US is not realistic. In spite of both the US and USSR having that capability it simply didn't happen, common sense prevented that, I guess. I don't think there is much common sense available between Iran and Israel since both appear to have radicalized governments. Diplomacy seems to be the only recourse(if it would even work) and we haven't seen much of that out of Bushco.

[iamalevi2]

10. Flip_Flops

Thank God Hilary never flip-flops. Of course it's hard to concentrate when you're under sniper fire!

[Lerrad]

62. Yea, Especially when you have to look out for your daughter at the same time n/t

[DevonRex]

11. It's over sweetie. nt

[redstate_democrat]

12. Too bad Hillary didn't bother to read the 90 page NIE

before mindlessly pushing the yes button for war with Iraq. Too bad she relied so heavily on a briefing from the white house for justification to send thousands of young men and women to die in Iraq.

Some foreign policy wonk she is.

:eyes:

[Liberal Veteran]

13. Poor Hil-shill. There are pharmaceuticals that can help you.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

15. ............

[rug]

16. If he would just stick to his first statement.

It's bullshit like this that leaves me shaking my head when people say he'll change the way politics are done.

[anigbrowl]

35. Read #24. The OP isn't reporting honestly on his remarks.

[rug]

61. OK. Do you mean this part?

"The reason Iran is so much more powerful than it was a few years ago is because of the Bush-McCain policy of fighting in Iraq and refusing to pursue direct diplomacy with Iran. They're the ones who have not dealt with Iran wisely."

It is more nuanced but pointing out the Bush/Cheney fuckups does not elevate Iran to a grave threat from what he more accurately described the day before. And if he truly believes Iran is a grave threat, his earlier comments are hollow.

Pointing out the limited threat Iran poses and dealing with it diplomatically makes much more sense. Calling it a grave threat, which is factually wrong, simply opens the door fur future military intervention, whether by Obama or any other president. He is not striking a clear position or a new approach. Sorry, I remain doubtful.

[anigbrowl]

106. "Calling it a grave threat, which is factually wrong"...gravity is a subjective quality.

It's like saying France is a large country. Depending on whether you are from China or Jamaica you might have differing views on the size of France. I don't see how you can take a subjective quality like grave and derive a factual error from it. I interpret it to mean 'reasonably serious', you may accord it a more urgent or calamitous meaning.

[2rth2pwr]

111. grave= reasonably serious?

LOL!

Edited to add definition

Grave; adjective, causing fear or anxiety by threatening great harm; "a dangerous operation"; "a grave situation"; "a grave illness"; "grievous bodily harm"; "a serious wound"; "a serious turn of events"; "a severe case of pneumonia"; "a life-threatening disease"

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/grave

[beezlebum]

17. hillary is most certainly NOT the answer.

i absolutely positively flat out disagree that "hillary is the answer.

she threatened to OBLITERATE iran.

the ginormous difference between waxing obliteration and flip flipping on status is pretty clear.

[tekisui]

18. Hillary lost. She hasn't told you, but she knows it, too.

[Douglas Carpenter]

19. "Rasmussen Reports believes the race is over and that Barack Obama will be the nominee of the Democr

"Rasmussen Markets data gives Sen. Obama a 62.0% chance of winning in November”(results are updated on a 24/7 basis by market participants)."

"The Rasmussen Reports Balance of Power Calculator shows Democrats leading in states with 200 Electoral Votes while the GOP has the advantage in states with 189"

"Rasmussen Reports believes the race is over and that Barack Obama will be the nominee of the Democratic Party. We will stop tracking the Democratic race in the near future to focus exclusively on the Obama-McCain match-up"

link:

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/daily_presidential_tracking_poll

----------------------------------

Real Clear Politics NATIONAL Average: Obama 49.0/Clinton 41.8

The nomination poll is an average of the latest polls from Gallup, Rasmussen, Quinnipiac, and ABC News/Wash Post

link:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/democratic_presidential_nomination-191.html

----------

Real Clear Politics NATIONAL Average: Obama 47.2/McCain 43.4

The general election poll averages the latest polls from Gallup, Rasmussen, Quinnipiac,ABC News/Wash Post,POS/GQR and LA Times/Bloomberg

link:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/general_election_mccain_vs_obama-225.html

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Rasmussen Markets data gives Sen. Obama a 62.0% chance of winning in November”(results are updated on a 24/7 basis by market participants)."

"The Rasmussen Reports Balance of Power Calculator shows Democrats leading in states with 200 Electoral Votes while the GOP has the advantage in states with 189"

"Rasmussen Reports believes the race is over and that Barack Obama will be the nominee of the Democratic Party. We will stop tracking the Democratic race in the near future to focus exclusively on the Obama-McCain match-up"

link:

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/daily_presidential_tracking_poll

[PBS Poll-435]

28. Gotta love the feel-good language coming from REPUBLICAN pollster Scott Rasmussen, who...

Is STILL doing daily polling for the Democratic nominee.

[Douglas Carpenter]

55. when EVEN Republican polsters know that the Democrats will probably win that does make one feel good

[BlooInBloo]

20. Go find someone to bribe.

[americanstranger]

21. Pretty pathetic.

Even by your increasingly pathetic standard.

- as

[BuyingThyme]

22. Not an effective approach for a Hillary supporter.

Try that bitter thing again.

[panader0]

25. Are you going to leave when Obama gets the nomination?

[anonymous171]

29. I hope so.

[bunnies]

27. This is too pathetic to even warrant a response.

Get 'em in while you can. Soon you wont be able to bash our nominee here.

[DemGa]

30. Sounds like some more experienced Dems had a word with Obama --nt

[beezlebum]

48. vomit. eom

[2rth2pwr]

49. Sure does.

[Ian David]

31. Oh. if only I'd known we needed Hillary before it was too late... before she lost! n/t

[lojasmo]

33. "Grave threat" ...."Not a serious threat TO US"

No flip.

PLEASE GIVE IT A FUCKING REST.

Clinton has NO WAY of locking the nomination. You're just making yourself look like a fool.

[lojasmo]

34. Bah...goodbye, dead-ender.

[Ashy Larry]

36. LOL!

You're too funny!

[Endangered Specie]

37. Its over, sweetie.

[beezlebum]

38. btw, "words matter," do they "2rth?"

i thought all obama had was speeches??? huh?? what was that about eloquent but "empty" words???

[2rth2pwr]

51. Do you want us to take what he says about Iran as empty words?

[beezlebum]

57. well now we want to be choosy do we?

we want to call "eloquence" "empty" and imply its rhetorical and meaningless, pay no mind to that, but when we want to obfuscate...

one things for sure, obliteration is far too strong a word to be confused by.

[MidwestTransplant]

39. The 2 statements are not inconsistent though maybe he could have articulated better

Clearly none of the countries can "obliterate" (to borrow a word)the world many times over. So they don't pose the same kind of threat. That's not to say they don't pose a serious or grave threat (arguable IMO depending on the country) to our interests though. We aren't in danger of being wiped off the map by any of them though...that's for sure.

[Bensthename]

42. Face it, you are a loser..

so get over it..

[ElsewheresDaughter]

43. YES SHE IS!!!

[sfaprog]

45. Hillary's gotten the 3 AM phone call twice... she blew it big time on both

You're actually going to trumpet Clinton's foreign policy experience??? It's a disaster! If she was concerned in any way about the death and misery caused in part by her vote on the IWR, IF she learned her lesson then (after being admittedly hoodwinked on something me and my grandma knew was wrong), she wouldn't have voted for Kyl/Lieberman. She blew it for many people with these two votes, and as much as some of her supporters want to externalize the blame of her losses now, the blame lies solely with her, for giving the thumbs up to war.

[leftofcool]

46. Depends on who he is talking to

[LSparkle]

50. Not a flip-flop at all ... He still advocates TALKING not OBLITERATION

[Lucky 13]

52. We need Hillary to OBLITERATE Iran!!

She's the only one with the leadership to stand up and say what everyone else thinks is "reckless" and "disturbing"!! She's such a fighter!

[kid a]

53. dude - i try to take evryone seriously - you've lodt it - adios

[Thrill]

54. YAWN

[merh]

58. Hillary has no foreign policy experience

You are just fooling yourself if you think her experience is any better than Obama's - matter of fact, her judgment relative to foreign policy considerations while in the senate proves she has poor judgment (she voted for an illegal and immoral war based on lies).

And on top of all that, she wants to obliterate an entire nation.

[KSinTX]

59. For God's sake. What a skanky OP

I actually read it with interest and watched the video then when I went to the article I discovered IT WAS DURING THE SAME FUCKING SPEECH. What an asshat post. Go get a life.

[2rth2pwr]

65. 2 speeches, 2 different days.

[KSinTX]

77. OMFG did you even READ your own link? SAME SPEECH

Posted May 19, 2008 1:51 PM
by John McCormick

Obama said he fully realizes the danger posed by Iran, but that it is nothing compared to those presented by the former Soviet Union.

"The Soviet Union had the ability to destroy the world several times over, had satellites spanning the globe, had huge masses of conventional military power, all directed at destroying us," he said. "So, I've made it clear for years that the threat from Iran is grave. But what I've said is that we should not just talk to our friends. We should be willing to engage our enemies as well. That's what diplomacy is all about."

Obama repeatedly stressed the risk posed by Iran, as he suggested that danger has grown because of policies supported by McCain.

"Iran is a grave threat. It has an illicit nuclear program. It supports terrorism across the region and militias in Iraq. It threatens Israel's existence. It denies the Holocaust," he said.

[2rth2pwr]

81. That is from today, the video was yesterday.

[KSinTX]

83. There is none so blind as he who will not see.

[2rth2pwr]

85. I don't know why I'm wasting my time proving this to you.

This video was added 21 hours ago on the 18th



This story dated the 19th and quoting Obama speaking "today" the 19th



Maybe it's because you are so sure in your wrongness that I just can't help myself.

[Lerrad]

60. He has not flip flopped at all.

You did not read everything that was said, and that YOU provided in the links.

[2rth2pwr]

66. I did read everything, what makes you come to the conclusion that I didn't?

[Lerrad]

88. Then you didn't understand it....

... becuase there is no flip flop that I can see.
Perhaps you should point it out to me in black and white.

[Window]

64. ..

:rofl:

[democrattotheend]

68. Not a serious threat to US. But a grave threat to Israel (and the rest of the Middle East)

I don't see what's inconsistent about this. Iran is a threat to the region and to Israel, but it's not a direct threat to us. We are not in imminent danger of being nuked by Iran.

[RainDog]

74. and neither is Israel

because the assholes in Iran aren't idiots. They know they cannot nuke Israel or anyone else without being wiped off the face of the earth by... Israel.

Tho they tried to lie about it, one of their scientists did expose Israel's nuclear weapons program. This might be one tiny reason Iran huffs and puffs about this issue. (And it was admitted, after the fact, that this is what Hussein was doing.)

The U.S.'s attempts to intimidate Iran help their hardliners. The students and other educated ppl in that nation are far more liberal than the govt. The demographics for them are interesting b/c females do get educations. Female education is one of the strongest predictions for emerging democracy (or the fall of totalitarianism) across every nation in the world (you can find tons of stats on this online.)

If the U.S. were to strike, tho, there is no way these ppl would not knee-jerk support their nation (remember after 9-11?) This is one major reason why acting like an asshole around the world is not to our advantage. Iraq had the highest number of educated females in Muslim nations in the area and was also a secular nation. The invasion by the U.S. did nothing but disrupt their own working out of democracy.

But of course this doesn't win elections for right wingers because they have to use fear in order to get elected b/c they sure as hell don't offer hope.

[madrchsod]

84. why do you persist linking on sites

that refute your arguments?

[Occam Bandage]

86. Iran is a grave threat. It is nothing compared to the Soviet Union. Both are true.

[dascientist]

90. END OF POST

[Lord Helmet]

87. we need Hillary

to quit acting like a retard and admit she got her ass handed to her

[scheming daemons]

91. Nice Hillary logo, comrade. The communist party loves you.....

[2rth2pwr]

93. Boltun — nakhodka dlya shpiona.

Болту́н — нахо́дка для шпио́на.

Translation: A chatterbox is a treasure for a spy.

[scheming daemons]

95. Um... that Obama poster is NOT part of any official campaign stuff....

...the Clinton one *IS* being sold by her campaign.



Obama is not responsible for the posters and signs made by people outside his campaign.

[2rth2pwr]

96. ...Do svidaniya!

[VotesForWomen]

99. do i need to post some of the Obama artwork that's going around? put a mustache on him and he's Big

Big Brother; put some long hair on him and he's Jesus. sheesh, his posters aren't going a long way to dispel the cult rumor.

[VotesForWomen]

97. i think he knows he's going to be hit on his apparent chumminess with some of our enemies.

[New Dawn]

98. No, we needed Dennis Kucinich. Clinton wants to "obliterate Iran."

[amelia]

100. K&R

[galloglas]

103. 2(rth)+2(pwr) = ??

Whaaa.... 7 ?? Clinton math !!

I'll bet Obama will beat her popular vote totals because he has... uhhhh... uhhh... 57 states !!!

How do you like them appl... uhhh... that math ??

[Norwood]

104. No flip flops here

Stop trying to manufacture outrage it makes you look sad and desperate. Clinton is done time to move on.

[Exultant Democracy]

108. Both of thoes statments are true and they don't contradict each other in any way.

Iran can be a grave threat to Israel without being even close to the same level of threat that the USSR was. Remember M.A.D. now that was some fucked up shit, kids in grade school learned how to duck and cover, no one in the U.S. ducks and covers because of Iran.

[SoonerPride]

114. This post is crap. There is no flip flop. You need to learn how to read.

Weak.