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I could care less if Obama loses our primary popular vote. If the pop. vote is so damn important...

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Bicoastal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 12:39 PM
Original message
I could care less if Obama loses our primary popular vote. If the pop. vote is so damn important...
...why waste time worrying about Ohio, Pennsylvania, West Virginia, and Florida poll results for the General Election? Why spend all this time talking about "the map," if the popular vote is REALLY the deciding factor for the nomination, and the nomination is really (as some have suggested) a warm-up for the GE?

The answer is, you can't have it both ways. By emphasizing the electoral map so heavily, Hillary and her campaign have implicitly accepted the old rules of the electoral college--which, as we all know, trumps the popular vote in electing our leaders. You can't just turn and around and say--but look at the total numbers! More people voted for me than him to win, so I should be the winner! Yeah, tell that to Al Gore--and tell it to the strawman version of Obama you have losing the election in your electoral map mock-ups.

Unlike the electoral college, which I admit is deeply flawed, I understand the reasoning behind our primary delegate system--somewhat. The General Election DOES NOT take place over the course of 5 months, but the primary system does. And If you want to take the popular vote in the primary seriously, you'll be counting the votes of many, many people who have since switched candidates in the three months since their state voted--or people who simply didn't get a chance to vote. According to recent polls, California is now solidly for Obama, as is New Jersey--but of course, this may all change in another week, or depending on which poll you read.

To avoid counting votes that have since changed, and to reconcile ourselves with the fact that our General Election all takes place over one 24-hour period, it seems to me that the only fair way to do it is what we've essentially done. Ours is a representational system in which a pledged delegate is assigned to represent a bloc of voters, with the understanding that if a few members of the bloc change their mind at a later date, the proportions will more or less stay the same. (I don't actually really get the Superdelegate system, but it doesn't matter because Obama has and will lead in pledged delegates even without them.)

If Hillary Clinton wishes to sell the Democratic party on her "of the people" victory, based on a nostalgic referendum of the Florida 2000 fiasco, she should immediately drop the Ohio-West Virgina--Pennsylvania arguing point about electability. Most polls show Obama with a solid national lead over Hillary, and while such polling remains faulty, you can't argue for a victory based on a representational matchup (electoral college states versus poll numbers) and at the same time insist on a populist victory (popular vote uber alles) It WAS a squeaker, Hillary, but even WITH Florida and Michigan, you lost OUR version of the map--you lost our race for delegates.

Unfair? Such is life.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
1. kick the Hillary supporters to the curb - they'll crawl back - they've no where to go
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Bicoastal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Oh, my sweet, sweet papau...
Edited on Fri May-23-08 12:56 PM by Bicoastal
...trying to find nastiness where there was in fact none.

No one's kicking you to any curb--somebody had to lose this close contest, and unfortunately, that loser is your candidate. OUR map--the Democratic delegate count from each state--says so.
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bunnies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. I'll be glad to tell some of them where to go.
Just saying.
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Ashy Larry Donating Member (900 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
2. Obama is winning the popular vote.
Hillary and her supporters are seeking to disenfranchise the people in Iowa, Maine, Nevada, and Washington. These are states we need to win in November and their voices should be heard.
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Oleladylib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
4. Don't worry about any of it..popular vote...Say President McCain
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Bicoastal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Why? McCain won't get elected by popular vote either.
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insanity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
6. Stop using logic to defeat talking points
It is hurting our party's unity. Didn't you get the memo that Democratic Unity is completely for Senator Clinton to decide on. I mean she was entitled to the Presidency anyhow, so votes don't really matter until they help her make a case.

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AnarchoFreeThinker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
7. yes, President Gore knows about the popular vote
Edited on Fri May-23-08 01:09 PM by dmsRoar
how's that?
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Bicoastal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Did you read the post or just its title?
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AnarchoFreeThinker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. you know I'm with you on this, right?
missed that part....editing as we speak
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Bicoastal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. I was confused. Sorry, I'm ready to defend this post to the death...
...and it baffles me that this argument hasn't been noticed. It IS a contradiction to talk about "the map" so much, then yell that the popular vote triumphs over all.
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AnarchoFreeThinker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. exactly.
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leftofcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
12. Of course you don't care, neither does the DNC
We wouldn't want the people to actually elect a nominee. Better to have Dean and company select/annoint one.
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Bicoastal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. The people aren't electing a president, either--Ohio and Pennsylvania are, remember?
Why don't you just drop the populism bullshit already--if it's all about THE MAP, Obama won ours, and nothing's going to change that.
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crickets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
15. K&R
:dem:
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