To the few, fair minded Hillary supporters out there

[intaglio]

I have just posted a fairly long reply to a Hillary supporter I generally respect. This person wondered why there was so much nastiness posted about Hillary and her supporters here. Well I just started typing and this came all came out. I think that with a little modification it deserves a wider audience.

Well, you asked for it why is there so much posted that attacks Hillary? Why are her supporters looked on with so much mistrust and ridicule? If you look at the list below perhaps you may garner a glimmer of the reasons, the biggest of which seems to be duplicity.

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She did bring up the racial issue. Even if you go along with the contention that the Obama campaign mentioned it first then there was still no reason for first Bill, then Geraldine Ferraro then Hillary herself to actually commit and compound the offense.

Her Campaign has cried "sexism" over every minor idiosyncrasy of the English Language - "Periodically" and "Claws" for example -then committed actual acts of sexism in respect of men and women who do not support her.

She did sign the agreement over Florida and Michigan, she also went further and stated outright that she did not believe the votes in Michigan would count at the convention.

Her campaign has vetoed solutions agreed by the DNC with FL and MI.

She did mention that Pledged delegates do not have to stay with their pledge; although, ironically, the only pledged delegate to follow that advice at present has been a Clinton delegate.

She has squandered a massive lead in fund raising and her campaign is hugely in debt.

She has been abysmal in selecting her senior staff - Patti Solis Doyle and Mark Penn specifically.

She did lie, and lie repeatedly, about Bosnia.

She has never apologized for her IWR vote; John Edwards did, Hillary Clinton has not.

She did favourably compare McCain to Obama.

She does do conference calls with the Blogosphere to coordinate attacks on "Obama friendly" sites

She has just reminded every goofball and nutcase that candidates have been assassinated prior to the convention before.

She has raised this ridiculous "popular vote" idea and then manipulated the numbers until (in her mind) she is ahead.

and last, but by no means least ...

There are the nauseous Hillary booster sites such as Hillary is 44 which do nothing but raise the specious talking points that are currently favoured by her campaign.

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I agree that there are many petty minded Obama supporters (even myself at times) but even I have tried peacemaking and have been attacked for it by Clinton Boosters. That I could ignore but then I saw how EVERY approach made by Obama supporters was similarly greeted with ridicule, it seems in fact that many Clinton Supporters do not wish for peace to break out here because that would not suit their purpose.

I strongly suspect that every other site that does not openly support Hillary is attacked in the same way (look at the sheer vitriol posted here about KOS, Huffpo and TYT). Such attacks here serve 2 purposes; firstly they put out a view that the posters wish to establish as a perceived truth, and secondly they encourage attacks from normally reasonable members who oppose this view. The disruptors then claim victimhood and seek sympathy from less aggressive board members. These tactics are not easily countered on an open board such as this, for banning the offenders (except for the most egregious offenses) allows them to claim "censorship" by the Board Admin. An outbreak of peace would undermine this tactic and allow Admin to be more free in the tombstones it delivers.

Given all of this, and I suspect more, do you really wonder why peoples gorge rises with every passing day. Can you not see why Hillary is castigated as much as she is? Could it be that in addition to "not getting Obama" you do not get the small minded viciousness of the Clinton Campaign and the surrogates who post here so often? If you cannot "get" this point then are you a Clinton supporter - or an agent of the Clinton Campaign?

/edit for poor souls with tiny monitors :+

[boobooday]

1. Not to mention the embrace of these Hillary supporters

Of right-wing talking points, pundits and sources.

[NatBurner]

4. was that not totally bizarre?

i mean, rush? HANNITY?

wtf?

[boobooday]

18. I was looking at Hillaryis44 the other day

And they were giving props to OREILLY.

[roguevalley]

22. she has mentioned RFK's assassination three times. I cannot believe

a decent person could support that.

[FARAFIELD]

2. In a word

She blows as a candidate.

[hayu_lol]

3. What I find interesting about MOST of the Obama supporters...

is that they never post anything good extolling their candidate. Instead, they spend their time sliming and slurring the Clintons by any means possible.

Has Obama said anything, done anything good so far in this campaign? You sure can't tell from what the Obama supporters have posted.

Yep: Faith, Hope, and Change. Don't need an explanation for any of it. Everything the man has done, is doing, and will do in the future is beyond reproach.

You guys really need to examine what you are doing.

[NatBurner]

5. lol

[sandnsea]

8. You missed his new Latin America policy?

You missed his remarks at the synagogue in Florida? You missed his fighting with Jim Webb for veteran's benefits?

We talk about Obama's positives all the time. And the kind of gibberish in your post is all we ever get back.

[roguevalley]

24. find me a comparable remark, tool, and maybe I won't laugh.

[redsoxrudy]

28. Are you sure about that?

Because I seem to recall that every time something positive is said about BO his supporters are mocked as cultists and kool-aid drinkers. As an avowed atheist this description of myself gives me a chuckle I have to admit.

[FARAFIELD]

30. Im examining and I find that Obama isnt planning on HRC to

get "bumped off" to end the race. Sheesh

[DemGa]

6. Plenty of assumptions in the OP

"Hillary lied" - it's just as easy to prove Obama a liar. Don't forget, "Bosnia" was in the midst of a smear campaign against Clinton - constantly defining her as dishonest.

You have to make a lot of assumptions about intent to make your case - so common here.

[intaglio]

11. 4 times she asserted that she was under sniper fire

Yes, 4 times. She repeated a lie 4 times in a ridiculous attempt to shore up her claims to be ready at 3am, ready to be CiC, ready to function in an emergency. What is more it was a lie that belittled the experiences of battle hardened troops.

BTW could you outline what "assumptions" I have made outside the final paragraph?

[DemGa]

14. No, there were no lies

The racism charges are false - assumption of intent is required.

There are no sexist acts committed by Clinton - more supposition.

The FLA and MI pledge was not violated by Clinton - and the quote lacks context.

Hillary vetoed the MI FLA solutions - so what? Assumption that the deal was fair.

She compared Obama to McCain? Obama has called Clinton "Bush/Cheney lite."

Again, you have to assume intent to "prove" Clinton lied.

[intaglio]

20. She was under fire in Bosnia?

No she was not. She was aware she was not (she was told by Jonah, I believe). She repeated this 4 times - it was not a one off. What is your definition of a lie - because it isn't one in any dictionary I have seen.

=======================

I quote Hillary's words

"Worki ... hard working Americans, white Americans," emphasis present in original broadcast. Racism, intended, with malice of forethought.

=======================

Sexist acts - perhaps not but sexist words, yes. Any assumptions regarding how women vote is sexist. Any assumption about how men vote is sexist. Do you shave eggs for a hobby?

=======================

Context - an interview given by Hillary to the New York Post

=======================

Well MI party thought it was fair and FL party thought it was fair and the DNC thought it was fair

=======================

She compared Obama UNFAVOURABLY to McCain ie she said that she believed that McCain would be a better president than Obama.

Obama did NOT say that Bush or McCain would be a better President than Hillary.

=======================

Anything else? Perhaps a few words of prayer to your Goddess might help dispell my doubts

[roguevalley]

25. Tuzla, you tool.

[cbayer]

7. You might want to shorten those break lines in your OP.

It makes it really difficult to read if you are on a small screen.

:hi:

[BenDavid]

9. I'm with her till the last dog dies, and whatever she decides I will respect

and you all can keep on writing what she did and what she did not do but still you have not given me a compelling reason to vote for obama if he is the nominee in November.

[Prophet 451]

13. The Supreme Court

Whoever is the president in January will probably get to nominate at least one Supreme Court justice. I'd call that a pretty compelling reason to vote for the one with the (D) after their name, no matter who that might be.

[roguevalley]

26. I don't have to give you shit. vote for her. watch the assassination

games she's playing. I don't care what you do.

[NashVegas]

10. I Stopped Caring Entirely Today When I Read This Article From the Chicago Tribune

http://againstobama.wordpress.com/2008/02/12/old-school-dirty-politics-of-obama/

The day after New Year’s 1996, operatives for Barack Obama filed into a barren hearing room of the Chicago Board of Election Commissioners.

There they began the tedious process of challenging hundreds of signatures on the nominating petitions of state Sen. Alice Palmer, the longtime progressive activist from the city’s South Side. And they kept challenging petitions until every one of Obama’s four Democratic primary rivals was forced off the ballot.

This from the candidate whose team constantly pushes the theme that their opponent will say or do anything to get elected.

Barack Obama is a weasel. He lets his hired help do all the sleaze while he stands back and bites his nails. Again and again and again - and he approves everything they do as long as it gets him elected.

There's not a presidential candidate alive that's not at least 3/4 corrupt, Obama included. But his supporters, for reasons I don't get, need to play pretend his hands reek of nothing but Clinique for Men.

[intaglio]

12. Care to write an OP about that?

Because I think you might be exagerating a tad.

Of course you could also be part of the Clinton Campaign team :nopity:

[Adelante]

15. Challenging signatures

OMG, how innovative - you're kidding, right?

[Lisa0825]

17. Were the challenges valid? were the sigs valid?

I have seen this posted before, but have not seen an answer to that. If the signatures were challenged, on what basis were they rejected? If too many signatures were found not to be valid, then why is that Obama's fault?

[LiberalAndProud]

19. Today huh?

: cough :

[dmr]

29. Be fair and post the rest of the story:

You can't just post purposely-chosen words from an anti-Obama site that makes it sound like it's the whole story.

I found the full article, which is longer than most. I don't know if you read only the snippets from the anti-Obama site or if you Googled and read the whole Chicago Tribune article. I don't understand how after reading this anyone would "stop caring entirely". This was a young man's early taste of the political world. People might not like what he did, but from I read, the challenges made to his opponent's hastily prepared petitions were justified. How you can generalized and use Obama and the word "corrupt" from this, baffles me. I'll call out any politician if they truly are corrupt, but I don't see it here.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/obama/chi-0704030881apr04,0,3337845,full.story

- snip -

In a recent interview, Obama granted that "there's a legitimate argument to be made that you shouldn't create barriers to people getting on the ballot."

But the unsparing legal tactics were justified, he said, by obvious flaws in his opponents' signature sheets. "To my mind, we were just abiding by the rules that had been set up," Obama recalled.

"I gave some thought to ... should people be on the ballot even if they didn't meet the requirements," he said. "My conclusion was that if you couldn't run a successful petition drive, then that raised questions in terms of how effective a representative you were going to be."

- snip -

Palmer joined the race and, according to multiple accounts, introduced Obama as the successor for her Illinois Senate seat.

"She said, 'I found this wonderful person, this fine young man, so we needn't worry that we'd have a good state senator,' " said former 5th Ward Democratic committeeman Alan Dobry, who volunteered to help both Palmer and Obama that year.

In recent interviews, Obama and Palmer agreed that he asked her whether she wanted to keep her options open and file to run for her state Senate seat as a fallback in case her congressional bid failed.

Obama says he told her: "We haven't started the campaign yet."

"I hadn't publicly announced," he said. "But what I said was that once I announce, and I have started to raise money, and gather supporters, hire staff and opened up an office, signed a lease, then it's going to be very difficult for me to step down. And she gave me repeated assurances that she was in to stay."

Obama "did say that to me," Palmer says now. "And I certainly did say that I wasn't going to run. There's no question about that."

- More at link -

[BlooInBloo]

16. Can anyone show my a Clinton supporter treating Clinton's "assasination strategy"...

appropriately and speaking out against it?

[intaglio]

21. You're joking, aren't you?

She was tired, distracted, it wasn't really an insult ... I think I've been watching "The Blues Brothers" too often, I keep expecting them to continue "the car wouldn't start, it had a flat ...."

[EFerrari]

23. And it was well before 3 a.m. Ciao.

[kohodog]

27. I agree with you.

And I think there is a power struggle going on that is bigger than Hillary. The DC and Corporate establishment do not want a president they cannot control. Does anyone have the reference to the Senator who took Bill Clinton aside after he was elected and said something to the effect of, "No, that is not how it works around here, here is how it works." The Clinton's know the inside deal and Barack would challenge that. He has not been bought and has millions of small donors counting on him. Obama may be a threat to the status quo and that's not supposed to happen. There is a difference between Hillary and Barack, and I choose Barack.