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How is it acceptable that McSame, Obama and Clinton espouse that we should be second class citizens?

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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 06:31 PM
Original message
How is it acceptable that McSame, Obama and Clinton espouse that we should be second class citizens?
... When it comes to gaining the right to travel to Cuba?

How is it acceptable that giving Cuban expats and Cuban-Americans the right to travel to Cuba but yet relegating the rest of us to second class status when it comes to our right to unfettered travel?

Why do we accept candidates that sign oaths to disenfranchise voters and deny equality regarding our travel rights?

Not big issues to most, but big issues to many.


Any thoughts?


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Billy Burnett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
1. American Idol? Head up their ass population?
Edited on Fri May-23-08 06:40 PM by Billy Burnett

I always wonder about how so many Americans are so willing to be trampled over by the oligarchy.

:hi:





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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
2. I would love to travel to Cuba.
And it isn't acceptable. I hold it against all of them.

:hi:
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Duke Newcombe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 06:50 PM
Response to Original message
3. It all depends on if the ban has accomplished its stated purpose.
Edited on Fri May-23-08 06:50 PM by Duke Newcombe
The 1962 Trade Embargo was to punish the communist nation. Unfortunately, by sad policies and an aging oligarch, that's been taken care of for us by Castro. Although Raul is cut from the same failed bolt of cloth, there are symptoms that the pragmatists are waking up there, and may be setting out to take the same, tentative steps to "Communism-lite" or pseudo-communism that China was starting a decade ago.

So, no, it is quickly becoming nonsensical to continue the embargo. Cuba is not the threat it was before-they are the toothless former lion that is too proud to acknowledge it's condition. A certain president that isn't afraid to talk to people may be able to open the doors there a little wider.

Duke

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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. I was posting about the TRAVEL ban on Americans.
I agree with the uselessness of the embargo also, but not with your general outline. No biggie.


I've been to Cuba many times, (and have in-laws there) - it is NOTHING like the picture US anti Cuba propaganda paints it to be.


:hi:
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Duke Newcombe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Hmm...not the info I got...
http://www.cubatravelexperts.com/about8.html

Ever since the United States trade embargo on Cuba began in 1962, American tourists have been prohibited from traveling to Cuba. U.S, law does not forbid Americans from entering the communist country, but the Trading with the Enemy Act says they can¹t spend money there, including paying for a ticket on a Cuban airline.


It would seem it was in place at the same time. Is this incorrect?

Duke

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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Correct.
I just don't agree with your comment that the two Castro brothers are "cut from the same failed bolt of cloth" in light of stats like this ...

Before the 1959 revolution

  • 75% of rural dwellings were huts made from palm trees.
  • More than 50% had no toilets of any kind.
  • 85% had no inside running water.
  • 91% had no electricity.
  • There was only 1 doctor per 2,000 people in rural areas.
  • More than one-third of the rural population had intestinal parasites.
  • Only 4% of Cuban peasants ate meat regularly; only 1% ate fish, less than 2% eggs, 3% bread, 11% milk; none ate green vegetables.
  • The average annual income among peasants was $91 (1956), less than 1/3 of the national income per person.
  • 45% of the rural population was illiterate; 44% had never attended a school.
  • 25% of the labor force was chronically unemployed.
  • 1 million people were illiterate ( in a population of about 5.5 million).
  • 27% of urban children, not to speak of 61% of rural children, were not attending school.
  • Racial discrimination was widespread.
  • The public school system had deteriorated badly.
  • Corruption was endemic; anyone could be bought, from a Supreme Court judge to a cop.
  • Police brutality and torture were common.

    ___



    After the 1959 revolution
    http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/43b/185.html

    “It is in some sense almost an anti-model,” according to Eric Swanson, the programme manager for the Bank’s Development Data Group, which compiled the WDI, a tome of almost 400 pages covering scores of economic, social, and environmental indicators.

    Indeed, Cuba is living proof in many ways that the Bank’s dictum that economic growth is a pre-condition for improving the lives of the poor is over-stated, if not, downright wrong.

    -

    It has reduced its infant mortality rate from 11 per 1,000 births in 1990 to seven in 1999, which places it firmly in the ranks of the western industrialised nations. It now stands at six, according to Jo Ritzen, the Bank’s Vice President for Development Policy, who visited Cuba privately several months ago to see for himself.

    By comparison, the infant mortality rate for Argentina stood at 18 in 1999;

    Chile’s was down to ten; and Costa Rica, at 12. For the entire Latin American and Caribbean region as a whole, the average was 30 in 1999.

    Similarly, the mortality rate for children under the age of five in Cuba has fallen from 13 to eight per thousand over the decade. That figure is 50% lower than the rate in Chile, the Latin American country closest to Cuba’s achievement. For the region as a whole, the average was 38 in 1999.

    “Six for every 1,000 in infant mortality - the same level as Spain - is just unbelievable,” according to Ritzen, a former education minister in the Netherlands. “You observe it, and so you see that Cuba has done exceedingly well in the human development area.”

    Indeed, in Ritzen’s own field, the figures tell much the same story. Net primary enrolment for both girls and boys reached 100% in 1997, up from 92% in 1990. That was as high as most developed nations - higher even than the US rate and well above 80-90% rates achieved by the most advanced Latin American countries.

    “Even in education performance, Cuba’s is very much in tune with the developed world, and much higher than schools in, say, Argentina, Brazil, or Chile.”

    It is no wonder, in some ways. Public spending on education in Cuba amounts to about 6.7% of gross national income, twice the proportion in other Latin American and Caribbean countries and even Singapore.

    There were 12 primary school pupils for every Cuban teacher in 1997, a ratio that ranked with Sweden, rather than any other developing country. The Latin American and East Asian average was twice as high at 25 to one.

    The average youth (age 15-24) illiteracy rate in Latin America and the Caribbean stands at 7%. In Cuba, the rate is zero. In Latin America, where the average is 7%, only Uruguay approaches that achievement, with one percent youth illiteracy.

    “Cuba managed to reduce illiteracy from 40% to zero within ten years,” said Ritzen. “If Cuba shows that it is possible, it shifts the burden of proof to those who say it’s not possible.”

    Similarly, Cuba devoted 9.1% of its gross domestic product (GDP) during the 1990s to health care, roughly equivalent to Canada’s rate. Its ratio of 5.3 doctors per 1,000 people was the highest in the world.

    The question that these statistics pose, of course, is whether the Cuban experience can be replicated. The answer given here is probably not.

    “What does it, is the incredible dedication,” according to Wayne Smith, who was head of the US Interests Section in Havana in the late 1970s and early 1980s and has travelled to the island many times since.



    No one can say with any credibility that universal education and universal health care needs to be forced on any population. Castro didn't give it to them either. Together, nearly all Cubans worked hard to create the infrastructure and systems that they felt were essential for any progressive system.

    The Cuban people wanted universal health care for all Cubans, and they have it. They pushed for government that represented their ideals, and organized and formed infrastructure that enabled Cubans to create a fair and complete h-c system.

    The people of Cuba wanted universal education for all Cubans, and they have it. They pushed for government that represented their ideals, organized and formed infrastructure that enabled Cubans to create a complete and world class ed system, and they have it.

    Cubans want to assist the world's poor with doctors and educators, instead of gun ship diplomacy.. and that is what they have done WITH their government, not at odds with their government.

    Can Americans make this claim about their own country? I'm afraid not.

    Cubans want normalization between the US and Cuba, and they have thrown their doors open to us, but, it is our US government that prevents what the majority of Americans want their government to do - normalize relations. Worse yet, the US government forbids and has criminalized travel to Cuba by Americans - something that Cuba hasn't done.


    Unfortunately, both Dem candidates espouse pretty much the same inane policy.


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    Duke Newcombe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 07:32 PM
    Response to Reply #8
    9. How much of that is attributable to the resilliency of people...
    ...and how much to socialism?

    And how is Cuba doing with regards to their food economy? I heard, from people on the ground who should know, that rations for staples such as rice, beans, and even sugar have been cut again.

    Duke


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    Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 03:59 PM
    Response to Reply #9
    10. Resiliency? Yes, but more like ability to excel with socialism. The before/after stats speak to that
    Edited on Sat May-24-08 04:01 PM by Mika


    "Rations" as related to Cuba are simply food stamps for government discount stores. Everyone gets a monthly stamp book. A wide range of food stuffs is available at the many thousands of farmers markets and grocery stores all over Cuba.

    One of the reasons why staples such as rice, beans, and some other items (not sugar according to my friends in Cuba) aren't being purchased by the discount stores is because they are commodities on the international stock exchanges that have seriously elevated prices.


    Mr F Castro wrote a prescient reflection about the looming food-as-commodities crisis over a year ago..

    THE INTERNATIONALIZATION OF GENOCIDE
    http://www.cuba.cu/gobierno/discursos/2007/ing/f030407i.html


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    kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 06:51 PM
    Response to Original message
    4. It seems similar to the allowance for immigrants to bring over their families from other countries
    Edited on Fri May-23-08 06:52 PM by kenny blankenship
    A naturalized citizen has some preference under US law in the area of bringing over close relatives like parents, etc. It is a nod to the importance of family ties, so is the proposal to allow Cuban Americans free travel back to relatives in Cuba.

    I also would like for the idiotic travel ban to be flushed away forever. Looks like we'll have to take one step at a time though.
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    Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 07:02 PM
    Response to Reply #4
    6. But we aren't banned from anywhere else by our own government (except NK?)
    Only a small minority of Cubans in Cuba desire to move to the US.

    The overwhelming majority of Cubans in Cuba want to retain socialism as their basic economic system.

    A little more prosperity is what is needed in Cuba, and that is just exactly what the US embargo and US travel ban is intended to stifle. (Keep in mind that the #1 industry in the Caribbean is US tourism.)

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