I have tried to be fair to both sides.

[kentuck]

Although I have publically stated my support for Barack Obama and why? It is painful to watch DU tear itself down over this "issue". I still do not believe that Hillary's comments were intentionally malicious but they are what they are. What does it say about her? What does it say about her ability to lead? What does it say about her judgement? Those are the valid questions, in my opinion.

Is she a follower or a leader? One must look at her decision to support the "war in Iraq" with a new perspective...as well her strategy to win the Democratic nomination and the people she put in charge. Is she an independent thinker or does she rely too much on the advice of others? Does she stick her finger in the wind and go whichever way the political winds are blowing? Will she look for advice on how to handle this present controversy or will she turn to her own heart for answers?

Also, we must look at her decision to support the Lieberman cause of declaring certain parts of the Iranian military and government as "terrorists", thereby throwing gasoline on an already hot fire and giving George W Bush and Dick Cheney a free pass to lead us into another war. That is a question of judgement. And that is a fair question, in my opinion.

But, most disturbing of all, is the possibility that reckless remarks may lead to a self-fulfilling reality on some parallel. Not just Hillary's remarks, but the remarks of many of us here on DU, must be weighed more carefully when we talk about such subjects. Let us try to be more prudent and wise with our comments. Just my thoughts.

[livingmadness]

1. Good thoughts. Thoughts I agree with. N/T

[mac2]

2. You fail to be fair.

Why? Obama and Lieberman are great friends. Lieberman was/is his mentor.

http://vichydems.blogspot.com/2006/04/joe-lieberman-barack-obamas-mentor-in.html

I like you am outraged over Lieberman and his influence in the Senate. It is a big frat club.

[kentuck]

3. Obama is not perfect.

And neither are you or I. Thanks for pointing out my failings. :-)

[mac2]

4. I guess he is allowed to have "failings" but not Hillary.

[kentuck]

6. All "failings" are not equal...

For comparative purposes, a mugger and a jaywalker are not equal criminals.

[mac2]

11. I fail to see a difference between these two globalists.

[CaptJasHook]

15. Then you haven't been paying attention.

I agree that their domestic agendas are almost identical and inadequate. I would have thought that Hillary's views on the war were only slightly more to the Right than Obama's, but the obliterate posturing changed that opinion.

The big difference is in their style. Hillary's actions are indicative of the Ugly American politics that our allies despise. Obama is a statesman, cool under pressure and crafty.

Finally, Obama delivers voters, energizes the base, and brings in the funds. Hillary divides people and turns her back on those who are of no importance to her. She uses whoever and whatever to win.

In my opinion, Obama re-energize and give hope to Progress. Hillary will remain in battle mode for the next 4 years fighting ghosts of the past.

[mac2]

18. Obama hasn't been tested as to his "cool" regarding his

statesmenship. It is said, he has a temper. Bull crap about them being different in direction. Both have been in the Senate and went along with Bush.

[CaptJasHook]

23. I don't want to get into an argument with Mac2

For the most part I believe you and I are on the same side of the fence.

At this point I believe Obama serves the Progressive cause more than Hillary. That is my opinion, backed by her words and actions. It may not be by much, but his edge is all we get this year.

[Coexist]

5. that article supports Obama. I don't get your point?

And the answer to that question is easy: Obama's by far the more progressive, the more honest, and the more electable of the two. Obama has just been named the most liberal Senator, based on his 2007 voting record; Clinton is 16th; Lieberman was 36th in 2006 and almost certainly will be ranked far lower than that this year. So all the statements out there that Obama is more conservative than Clinton are simply unsupported by the facts: Clinton, by far, more closely resembles Lieberman in her voting record (both of them, but not Obama, supported the war, the surge, the resolution calling Iran a sponsor of terrorism, the bankruptcy bill, etc.), as well as in her willingness to put personal advancement ahead of party loyalty (Lieberman by running as an independent when he lost the CT Democratic primary to Ned Lamont and again by endorsing John McCain, Clinton earlier by trying to rig the primary race before it even began and now by trying to gain the nomination undemocratically, by cutting deals with "superdelegates" because she's losing the popular vote).

As to Lieberman being Obama's "mentor in the Senate"? Yes, he was. Every freshman Senator is assigned a more experienced mentor to help him learn the ropes, and when Obama was first elected to the Senate in 2004, Lieberman had been his party's vice presidential candidate in the previous Presidential election and was still well-respected.

[TBF]

Interesting that Lieberman was assigned to be Obama's mentor in the Senate -

sometimes you learn more about what not to do from your "mentor".

[mac2]

13. Don't you wish.

It is a big frat club and all the discord and shouting is for show.

[mac2]

12. Lieberman is Obama's friend and mentor

and still is.

[chascarrillo]

7. Totally best buddies! That is, of course, why Lieberman called Obama the Hamas candidate.

I bet they drink beers and shoot pool during campaign downtime.

[Higher Standard]

8. Of course, that's what friends do, don't you know?

Well, heck, my friends often jokingly refer to me as Al Qaeda's harbinger of death in the United States. Those wacky guys!:rofl:

[Martin Eden]

10. It's like that commercial where the baseball manager appears to be screaming at the umpire ...

... when he's actually asking him out to dinner.

However, Barack & Joe don't shoot pool together. I've heard that usually they go bowling.

[mac2]

14. You got it.

[chascarrillo]

17. And I heard that Lieberman is campaigning with McCain. That's what BFFs do: Work for your opponent.

[TDScott]

24. I wrote the piece you link to - but Lieberman is NOT Obama's friend

I'm always grateful for folks who read my site, VichyDems (http://vichydems.blogspot.com), and I appreciate links. But I need to set this one straight: Lieberman was assigned to be Obama's mentor when he first won his seat. All freshmen are given one, to explain basically how things work. And, in fact, Obama repaid the favor by campaigning for Lieberman against Ned Lamont in the Connecticut primary. (Clinton did, too.)

But when Lamont beat Lieberman for the nomination, both Obama and Clinton supported Lamont in the general. And now NED LAMONT ENDORSES OBAMA FOR PRESIDENT! Again: the great Democratic newcomer that Lieberman beat as an independent to keep his seat, endorses Obama. And Lieberman has been sucker-punching Obama constantly all through the campaign. Clinton voted FOR the Kyl-Lieberman "Iran is terrorist, too" amendment; Obama voted against it. Both Clinton and Lieberman voted for the Iraq war; Obama wasn't in the Senate but at least he spoke out against the war publicly. Clinton's the one with stronger Lieberman sympathies and ties.

So: hate Lieberman, yes. (My site's slogan includes the phrase, "and still dogging Joe Lieberman until he's festering in his political grave, of course.") But we need to stop the meme that Obama is Lieberman-lite. (FWIW, the updated info is on mac2's link to VichyDems.)

[KoKo]

9. Thanks Kentuck....you make good points to think about

and as someone who finally voted for Obama but tried to be fair about Hillary, too...this latest mis-speak is worrisome in showing a lack of judgment and even a lack of awareness of how this might be seen by the Kennedy family given Senator Kennedy's recent diagnoses.

Maybe she truly believes that something could happen and that's why she's staying in the race...but, to put that statement out there is reckless and as you said may lead to self-fulfilling reality.

[patrice]

16. We need this kind of balanced perspective here on the DU. Thanks kentuck! nt

[mac2]

19. Balanced how?

[kentuck]

20. Good question, mac2.

:-)

[patrice]

21. No personal attacks. Discussion questions that you may answer as you see fit.

If your problem with the OP is that it actually takes a position that you disagree with, consider that a case that would be 50:50, though analytically interesting for how it would pose equally weighted factors, doesn't end up SAYING anything. But if "balance" IS reallly your issue, have at it. Take the OP in that direction if you can.

As it is, I would roughly characterize the OP at something like 40:60 in Obama's favor, so you've got me there - it's not THAT close to balance, but NOT BAD for what passes for discourse around here.

[BlooInBloo]

22. This isn't about creating a false he-said-she-said equivalence, and calling it "balanced"...

She said that her path to the nomination is over Obama's dead body.

It matters not in the least if she "meant" it or not. Just the fact of her saying that ends all discussion.