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Debunking the Obama unelectability myth

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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 05:10 PM
Original message
Debunking the Obama unelectability myth
Edited on Sat May-24-08 05:15 PM by Drunken Irishman
He's not electable, they say and then point to those pesky electoral-vote maps as evidence of this. However, this far out, you can't look at the total vote count as evidence of him not being electable. You've got to look deeper into the numbers to find that he's probably far more electable than Hillary Clinton and that's because her support is far softer than Obama's.

What do I mean? Well let's look at today's two maps from electoral-vote.com



Now I'll conede that at first glance, Hillary Clinton looks like the better candidate to run against McCain. I mean, she does win the electoral college, while Obama -- though he leads -- does not. However, you've got to look beyond just the votes because that does not tell the full story.

Strong GOP

We'll start with STRONG GOP, as these EC votes are almost certainly going Republican in November. If you compare Clinton to Obama, you find that Clinton has 143 electoral votes that are considered STRONG GOP, while Obama only has 129. That is a difference of 14 electoral votes the Dems could lose in November, which, as we saw in 2000, could decide the election.

Weak GOP

Weak GOP are votes that the Democrats could win in November. Now Clinton does not do well here, as there are only 39 weak GOP electoral votes up for grabs in her map, while Obama has 73. That's a difference of 34 electoral votes. Will Obama win them all? No, but the fact he puts more electoral votes in play will help him this November.

Barely GOP

This is probably the biggest bloc of electoral college votes because it's our real chance of stealing a few Republican states. Clinton only has 26 electoral votes that can be considered barely GOP, while Obama has 46. That's a difference of 20 electoral votes and that could decide the election, especially if Obama can steal a couple of "weak" GOP states.

Tied

These votes are huge too because they basically can break either way. For Clinton, she's tied for 17 electoral votes and Obama is tied for 24 electoral votes. That's a difference of 7 votes, so the difference here is not that big.

Now I know some will say her numbers are lower in Republican states because she's doing extremely well in Democratic states. This is not true.

Barely Dem

Both do ok here, as Obama has 32 electoral votes that are barely Democratic and Hillary 33. This is big, though, for Obama because the higher the number here, the softer the support. And the fact Obama doesn't have soft support among Democratic states shows that he's in good shape.

Weak Dem

Not nearly as big as BARELY DEM, but close. These states the Democrats can't afford to lose, because it could change the election. Now Obama only has 92 electoral votes listed as WEAK DEM, while Clinton has 157. That's a difference of 65 electoral votes. That's a lot, because that means these states will be contested by Republicans and it's possible they could switch at any time in this election cycle.

Strong Dem

These are states Democrats shouldn't lose and Obama has the lead here. 142 of his electoral votes are STRONG DEM, while only 124 of Clinton's fits into this category. That's a difference of 18 electoral votes, which is a pretty high number when you consider we've heard Obama might not do well in traditionally Democratic states.

So what's the whole point of this? Well I believe both Obama and Clinton could beat McCain, however, these maps prove Hillary's support is pretty soft in many states. Soft support isn't bad IF it holds and you win those states, but it's May and anything can happen. And while she does beat McCain in the EC, there is a concern that support isn't strong enough to hold over months of a grueling campaign.

When looking at these numbers, you must take into account the foundation of each candidate's support. And while Obama may not have 270 electoral votes yet, he does better in Republican states than Clinton and his support in Democratic states appears to be stronger as a whole. That doesn't mean Clinton won't poll better in past Democratic states, but as a whole, her support is far more softer than Obama. So when some people on this board suggest Obama can't win and use these maps as proof Clinton does better than Obama, you've got to look at in the whole context. While she may do better than Obama RIGHT NOW, it's not by much and the support she does have is very fickle and prone to switching at any time. And though I believe Obama has his work cut out for him, it is a good sign his support at this moment is stronger than Clinton's and McCain's, because in the end that will be more important to the campaign than to who is leading in what state in the month of May.

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gristy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
1. I suggest an edit to your subject line
Debunking the Obama unelectability myth
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rock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
2. So you're debunking the myth
by saying it's not true?
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. I fixed it. Sorry, it was a typo. Yeesh.
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zanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
3. The problem will all of these predictions is...
They use numbers from the 2004 election to forecast the 2008 election results. The year 2004 is light years away from 2008 as far as politics is concerned. Enough people were still addled enough back then to vote for Bush and many other Republicans.

2008 will have a different "Strong GOP", "Strong Dem" map. After all the years of Republican failure, we're bound to have more "DEM" states this time around.
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. I agree, just pointing out the maps don't tell the whole story.
This early in the campaign it's all about strong/soft support over who's leading in the EC.

If your support is soft, it's prone to switching and it's extremely possible that happens if Clinton is the nominee. Back in 2004 at this time, Kerry had the lead in most EC maps, but his support was extremely soft.
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suston96 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #3
13. They use the most recent polls for each state and are a little behind.
I don't think they do "forecasts" based on past elections. But they do give the stats for those past elections.

Go here and the map will be interactive: http://www.electoral-vote.com/
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samdogmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
5. Keep in mind Wisconsin "barely" supported Kerry in 2004! But he WON!
Things are much worse now than in 2004. I'm guessing many more Republicans have thrown up their hands in disgust!

I doubt that the state is "leaning" Republican right now. I'm guessing Wisconsin's 10 electoral votes can be safely assigned to Obama! (I personally know many DIE-HARD Republicans who support Obama.)
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. I think Wisconsin will go Democratic too.
For both candidates.
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WillyToad Donating Member (389 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
6. Really, the only thing that can sink Obamas chance of winning...
...is the failure of his 'supporters' to even consider bringing Hillary's supporters into his fold. Instead, they have chosen to drive them away. This board is a prime example of it. Abuse just doesnt sell.
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Eh?
There are just as many guilty Hillary supporters who push every time we try to bring them in. I ask you check www.hillaryis44.com , www.taylormarsh.com and the Hillary Clinton forums.

I hate how everyone blames Obama supporters when Clinton supporters can be just as bad. But we should put up with their shit, because we can't lose their votes. So basically, what you're saying is, sit back, shut up and let us bitch, but the second you bitch, we'll leave?

Pfft, fuck that.
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WillyToad Donating Member (389 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. There barely any Hillary supporters left on this board
They have all been driven away by the endless negative battering by Obama supporters. This isnt isolated, it has happened all over the internet. Denial just exacerbates the problem.

What do you plan to do to get Hillary's supporters into Obama's camp? He cannot win without them. I have not seen a single Obama supporter even attempt to sell Obama on his positives. It is all bashing, all anger, all the time.

What is the plan? Have you ever even given this the slightest consideration?
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. You sound like my dad, blaming my mom for his drinking.
Edited on Sat May-24-08 05:38 PM by Drunken Irishman
Hillary supporters have just been fantastic and positive about Obama, right? They've been cool and nice and have never said anything hateful or ignorant about his campaign or his supporters, right?

This is pathetic and your argument is pathetic. I'm not going to do a damn thing to convince any of THOSE Hillary Clinton supporter to back Obama, especially when they continue to bash and belittle his campaign. Why should we accept their crap?
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WillyToad Donating Member (389 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. What is your plan to bring Hillary supporters into Obamas fold?
You are attempting to duck my point, but your anger proves it for me.

Have you ever asked yourself why Hillary's supporters do not come here anymore? Do you ever read the threads here? It is basically a huge anti-Hillary circle jerk. Hillary supporters bash his campaign? Where? Hillary supporters rarely come here anymore. What percent of threads here bash Obama vs those that Bash Hillary?

Can you rise above your personal animosity and do what is right for the party? Does this even matter to you?

Anger and disillusionment poison a persons integrity.

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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. I told you, I'm doing nothing.
I don't really like some Hillary supporters and frankly, I'm not going to compromise by listening to their bullshit just to appease them.

It isn't a fair shake. Clinton supporters have been just as vile as Obama supporters, yet you expect us to swallow your bullshit over and over again. Well I'm not going to do it. If you piss on Obama, I'll piss on Clinton, that's the way it is.

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phrigndumass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
10. Electoral-Vote.com is being extremely selective with the polls they use this year
I've double-checked EV.com against Pollster.com every day for almost a month to find the latest polls for THE MATH threads. EV.com will only use second-tier polls to balance against a first-tier poll that is not to their liking. They'll average the two polls.

Averaging current polls is fine, if they do it consistently. But they don't do it consistently.




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FlyingSquirrel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 05:28 PM
Response to Original message
12. I've said it before but I'll repeat: Electoral-vote.com is a RW site
Furthermore they cherry-pick polls and do not present a realistic picture of the race.

I should actually start a site to counter them but I don't have that kind of time, energy, & money so I'll just rely on my journal.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/FlyingSquirrel/22



McCain has done better against Hillary than Obama each time I've run my analysis (3 times).

Guess it's probably time to do another update since EV keeps being brought up here today.
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samdogmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. Just what I thought! Thanks for making a colored graphic to back it up!
As I said earlier--I know MANY die-hard Republicans in Wisconsin who are presently supporting Obama. If Hillary is our nominee...they will go back to McCain..thus the Blue for Obama and the Red for Hillary. Get it guys? Hillary can not win a general election! (Unless there's monkey business going on...but somehow, I think the monkey business will favor McCain!)

I'm flabbergasted by the Hillary supporters who maintain the opposite! Wow! Who are you talking to? Did any Republicans tell you that they support her over McCain? Post your stories...I'd love to hear them!
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Davis_X_Machina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
14. 'Electability' is a tautology.
It is established by being elected.

Every candidate who wins is 'electable', ipso facto
And ipso facto, every candidate who loses isn't 'electable'.

As a category, as a concept, it tells us nothing we didn't already know.
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MadBadger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
17. Hillary is running against nobody right now
Nobody is attacking her and nobody can hurt her except herself. Of course she is doing a lot better than Obama right now

Also, Wisconsin will go Dem, and Michigan has him down 1, so that really should be tied. He will take Michigan as well.
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bluereality Donating Member (25 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
19. Arizona is listed "weak GOP"
May I ask why?
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. A variety of reasons
polls, past electoral history, the fact that McCain loses to the governor (a possible VP candidate) in matchups for a future senate run. You might be amused to know that a Bush McCain rally scheduled for Phoenix next week had to be moved to a smaller venue because they couldn't sell enough tickets :-)
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