I wish the Hillaryists realized how much they are harming the true feminist movement

[ButterflyBlood]

Constant screaming of "IF YOU DON'T SUPPORT HILLARY YOU ARE SEXIST!" and the claims that attacks on her are by definition misogynistic, etc. etc. and the high amount of recent drama on this forum over that just discredits it. Massachusetts NOW's attacks on Ted Kennedy come to mind as one from establishment. Who's going to take them seriously after that? Taylor Marsh's burning of bridges also comes to mind.

Feminists have developed a largely undeserved reputation of that all are extreme authoritarian Dworkin/MacKinnon-esque killjoys. Since the 70s the feminist movement has thankfully largely moved away from that, but this appears to be rearing its ugly head again with the Hillaryists (I hardly think "feminist" applies to these folks.) Frankly, Hillary's candidacy and the reaction in this manner has been the best thing ever to happen to Limbaugh and his types and everyone who wishes to discredit feminism.

[cliffordu]

1. Yep. K&R

[adoraz]

2. I agree with you 100%.

[Yael]

3. Thank you for this.

It only cheapens the real issues surrounding sexism to have them claiming it every time they lose a quarter in a pay phone.

[BlooInBloo]

4. Why do you hate men?

:P

[DesertFlower]

5. agreed.

i really don't understand the support by so many women. i've been made to feel guilty because i support obama. it has nothing to do with gender or race as far as i'm concerned.

[Darth_Kitten]

6. LOL

Another I'm not one of those screaming, strident feminists I'll do anything to please a man types?

[Darth_Kitten]

7. Also, when men do something kinda icky and stuff, does a whole.......

movement suffer? :eyes: :sarcasm:

[Gore1FL]

12. If a large block of vocal men did "kinda icky and stuff" things...

...while hiding behind the mask of of some unknown masculine cause, then yes, it would damage that cause.

[anigbrowl]

20. Conservatism being a prime example.

[anonymous171]

37. Correct.

[nolabels]

51. Not

(in my observations)
Conservatives by their own contemporary definition are wimps. According to lore, macho men will often do things with their bare hands if they need to(sometimes true). I find those in need the instruments and sanctuary of modernity are mostly not very original thinkers either. In summary though, through all in all of my life's experience, i have found females with the toughest mental characteristics. To me it seems the words and their meaning are wasted when it come to defining people in general but women in particular. It's not the idea of being conservative as word to hang but more of the logical. The females often won't squander things they might need later because that next hungry child could be her own kid

The perfect place for those trying to hide behind that ruse that they are conservative is the keyboard and internet itself. Funny thing is many more seemed to have turned up being of that so called 'liberal' bent when it comes to philosophy. I try not to assume anything somebody tells me, especially when it comes to seeing how people are in real life :shrug:

[Gore1FL]

8. It think it is more of

I am a women capable of making my own decisions and have the capacity to do so using methodologies besides noticing the absence or presence of Y chromosomes.

But what do I know. I am a mere male.

[ButterflyBlood]

9. No I'm a man who supports Obama and has supported women for other offices

and supports a woman for Obama's running mate too actually (Kathleen Sebelius.)

Frankly all I'll say is if you wish to use this type of logic fine, but that makes it's perfectly fair game to accuse all Hillary supporters of being racist.

[cui bono]

17. No, some people realize it's not about one or the other extreme. n/t

[TheDoorbellRang]

32. One needn't scream to avoid being a doormat

Really and truly. It is so.

[Divernan]

49. Oh, PUHleeze!. HRC stays w/ her serial adulterer husband - that's no feminist role model!

Read the biographies about this woman, including Carl Bernstein's and her own autobiography. Her macho, militaristic father physically and psychologically abused her mother, her brothers and her. She never stood up to him. Then she goes chasing down to Arkansas after Bill, after she loses her job in DC (after getting caught hiding legal papers & writing a memo lying about legal precedent). Bill asks her for a divorce while he's governor of Arkansas because he was in love with some other woman (I think that was Gennifer Flowers - but Bernstein details it in his book) - but HRC hangs on kicking and screaming. I bet THAT was "strident screaming"!

[NC_Nurse]

10. I agree. All the whining about sexism plays right into female stereotypes.

[havocmom]

11. bitter, hard working white feminist here, glad to give you that 5th Rec

With many thanks for stating it so clearly. Hillary, her campaign, and some of her non-critical-thinking supporters have really hurt women with the constant barrage of attacks on anyone who raised an issue about Hillary's track record or current behaviors.

You are correct, they did much to help the Rushes in the world and only harmed the causes of women reaching for real equality.

[reflection]

13. The victim role is just played out.

Hell, Paglia said as much today. Guess she's not a feminist either.

[cbayer]

47. Paglia? Camille Paglia? Uh, no, I don't think she is a feminist at all.

In fact, I see her as the anti-feminist, and most recognized feminists would agree.

[TLM]

14. She's presenting herself as a strong woman....

Yet behaving like an arrogant, egomaniacal, self-important, power hungry, elitist, who is convinced of her own sense of entitlement to the Whitehouse.

When called on it she acts as if she’s being attacked because of her gender.

[DogPoundPup]

18. You can't be a strong WOMAN when you

are losing so you're arguing that the rules should be changed so that you can win. That only works until you are six years old. This feminist thing is obnoxious on behalf of the Hillar-ani's.

I'm a woman, born in '52, in my late teens and early 20's in the 70's AND IT IS WAAAAAAY OBNOXIOUS girls.

[EFerrari]

43. Her fall back position when she screws up is the victimized woman.

It's regressive and, isn't that what she did during the universal healthcare fiasco? Hillary doesn't need the vast right wing conspiracy to do her in, she does it to herself even better than they could.

[scarletwoman]

15. I think of them as "yuppie feminists" who don't know a damn thing about genuine political struggle.

They'll gleefully condemn the millions of abused and impoverished women all around the planet to 4 more years of the same repug policies that are aiding and abetting their oppression and deaths. They'll do this to prove some kind of point.

Those women aren't any damn "feminists", they're just dogmatic "my turn-ists" of the most shallow and self-involved variety. Fuck em.

sw

[cui bono]

16. Don't forget how women are no longer allowed to decide for themselves who they prefer

they should simply vote for the woman.

:puke:

Yes, I have said it too, Clinton and her die hard supporters are setting back the women's movement.

If you are really a strong woman and want to prove it, you don't whine every time you lose or fall behind or are criticized. You prove why they are wrong.

If you are really a strong woman people will want to vote for you because you are the best candidate, not just because you are the same gender as them. Your gender says nothing about your ability or your character so getting votes because of gender says nothing about you as a person. If you don't want to be discriminated against for it, then don't expect to be supported because of it.

If you are really a strong woman and the best candidate you wouldn't need to resort to lies and insane arguments - that keep changing the further behind you get - to try to convince people you should win. You simply would win.

Her campaign has disgusted me and insults my womanhood.

[TBF]

21. And if you are a strong women you win a nomination because

people admire you and think you are the best person for the job; not because you wait around for someone to be assassinated so you're first in line.

It reminds me of the New Yorkers who read obits to learn when apartments are going to become available...

[havocmom]

26. Yep. A womb is no reason to exclude someone from office, but no reason to put them in office either

The PERSON is what we vote for or against. Nobody is telling me I HAVE to support someone just because our genitalia match or I am a misogynist! Especially when they don't know anything about me beyond my unwillingness to give some one a pass because she is female. Before I vote for someone, I THINK and learn. Our values, priorities and standards have to be a closer match than our anatomy. Physical traits do not enter into the decision. To insist they do is demeaning to women.

The FINOs can take their dogma and run it up a flag pole. It ain't gonna get many salutes from those of us who have been long in the trenches.

[stratomagi]

19. A friend of mine made an interesting point the other day....

I kind of didn't fully agree with it but he was saying how at this point she's doing more to reinforce the glass ceiling she was supposed to shatter and the longer she stays in and makes a fool out of herself the more she is harming future women candidates. The disagreement I had was whether or not people like Sharpton and Jesse Jackson have done the same thing to Obama. I feel there are talented and intelligent women serving now who are qualified for the presidency and I don't think that Clinton would harm them too much, I mean after all unlike Clinton most of them made it to office without the name recognition she had, so thats a plus.

[TBF]

22. That actually is a really good point. Clinton did come into this with a past,

and unfortunately had been the subject of ridicule in the past, so I can see that aspect of her feeling that the press might be against her.

But she really did come into this contest as the front-runner, and it really was her nomination to lose. Now that she has made some controversial comments people refer back to some of the stuff that was out there in the 90's, but there wasn't too much of that until the last few months.

As she has gotten further behind she has gotten more careless (or perhaps fearless) in her speech.

[boppers]

23. Interesting...

Contrasting Sharpton and Jackson, while they may not have cracked the glass, they established a pattern of what was possible, and what was not. When Obama came up, and was not as strident or angry as Sharpton and Jackson, people had to shed their "angry black man" stereotype.

I think our first female president will differ from Hillary in quite significant ways, and have a more viable candidacy because of it, as people can say to themselves, "Oh, this woman doesn't come across as scolding or victimized as Hillary".

Regardless, at least it's been proven that women can now make it to the ceiling, even if they haven't broken through yet.

[stratomagi]

25. I don't know if you can say they haven't broken through.

There are more woman senators today than at any other point in history and we currently have a few women governors, one (despite what I think of her) is even secretary of state. The post of president is a rare job, only 43 people have held that position in the last 200+ years, so I don't think its a good litmus, though don't get me wrong the first woman president of the U.S. would be a significant moment in history.

[bigtree]

24. 'true feminists'

. . . would probably take issue with your ridicule of Clinton supporters by calling them Hillaryists. You have absolutely no clue.

[ButterflyBlood]

36. The reason I use the term is advancing women is not their issue

It's advancing Hillary.

[justinaforjustice]

27. Hillory Is Not A Feminist, She's an Opportunist.

As a sixty-something white feminist, I am appalled at Clinton's attempt to use women and the women's movement to justify her "right" to the Democratic presidential nomination. She has lost her campaign for the nomination by her own words and acts, not because of sexism.


No one who genuinely cares about the rights and welfare of women would suggest to voters that they vote for John McCain, who has vowed to appoint judges who will reverse Roe v. Wade and said he will support a constitutional amendment against abortion. Yet, that is exactly what Hillory Clinton did this week, telling Florida voters that if the Democratic Party doesn't recognize all the votes cast in the invalid Florida primary, "John McCain would welcome their votes". No, she is not a feminist and clearly does not care about the damage that will result to women if McCain is elected.

Similarly, her ruthless opportunism can be seen in her complete reversal of position on the Florida and Michigan votes. Prior to the primaries, she signed an agreement to abide by the DNC rules invalidating the Florida and Michigan primary. When Florida and Michigan held their early primaries in violation of DNC rules, Clinton supporters on the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee voted to sanction the Florida and Michigan Democratic Parties by not recognizing their delegates. She herself acknowledged that those votes were invalid. It was only when she realized that she needed those delegates and votes that she accused the DNC and Obama (who had nothing to do with it) of disenfranchizing the Florida and Michigan voters.

Hillary's vicious campaign to slander DNC and Obama as both undemocratic and sexist is clear evidence that she will recklessly use whatever Rovian weapons she can to wreck the Democratic Party's chances in the 2008 if she isn't awarded the nomination.

I sorely resent Hillary's attempt to use the women's movement to fulfill her own power-hungary ambitions. One hopes that her remaining female supporters will recognize how they are being used and abused by Clinton's manichean manipulations and refuse to participate in her self-serving schemes.

Hillary Clinton is morally unfit to be president.

[scarletwoman]

31. Great post, well said! "Hillary Clinton is morally unfit to be president." Exactly!

Thanks for saying it. :thumbsup:

sw

[Fredda Weinberg]

28. I'll define true feminism for myself. It's working for me and so is HRC n/t

[PerpetuallyDazed]

30. I admire your ability to do that

in the face of overwhelming opposition to yours & Hillary's definition.

[Fredda Weinberg]

40. I stood up to the Lubavitcher Rebbe's brother and argued for

humanity's sake. You think DU bothers me?

I left before because my mother was dying ... Salon's Table Talk had a thread where I found support.

HRC will be fine as am I. Your concern is duly noted, but feminism was never about victimhood.

[PerpetuallyDazed]

29. Yes! Hillary has hijacked the movement!

And I suspect there's going to be a serious backlash to this Hillary brand of "feminism" with the young Obamaites and new democrats...

[ButterflyBlood]

35. Most young women support Obama

He overwhelmingly leads with everyone in the under 30 demographic. Something to think about.

[Elspeth]

33. Dworkin is great mind. For you to dismiss her as a "kill joy" is shortsighted.

I am not convinced that "third wave feminism" has given us much of anything. The fact that we are still fighting for basic rights and that reproductive freedom is hanging by a thread means that "second wave" feminism's job is not yet done.

[gaspee]

41. Third Wave Feminism

Is a joke. It has given us "porn is empowering!" and that is about it.

[AZBlue]

34. Happy to K&R

[jillan]

38. As someone who was involved in the feminist movement - you are so wrong.

If anything, the feminist movement has been sleeping since the 70's and is now
being re-awakened.
Woman are not much better off than we were back then.
We still aren't treated equally, we still make less than a man.

I am reminded of how far woman have to go many times in my daily life.

From reading your post, it's obvious you don't care about the women's movement and probably would prefer that women continue to be held back in our society.

BTW - why should anyone care what Mr. Feminazi thinks?

[gaspee]

42. No progress

At all. In fact, women's rights issues have been moving backward since Ronnie Ray-gun and the '80's -- young women have self-internalized the whole "feminazi" thing -- the vocal ones like to say how they're not feminists, how they like being objectified and porn is empowering to women.

The ERA still has not been ratified - I think that says it all right there.

The rise of the right wing and of christian fundamentalism has played a large part in the erosion of women's reproductive rights and in the entire attitude toward women and their place in the world.

[cjsmom44]

45. RE:Wrong

I also was involved in the movement...and you are so wrong....it is not being awakened. It is being damaged by Sen. Clinton. I am a middle aged feminist...and I remember the those early days....it used to be all about choice...now feminism it seems has turned ugly...with it's own agenda and in the process is turning away younger woman who are not as hard lined.
Just ask any of the younger professional women who they support...most support Barack Obama....
They are turned off by Sen. Clinton's rhetoric. They see it and hear it...My own daughter wants nothing to do with Sen.Clinton, She said to me "MOM...please who would want these angry left over bra burners, give me a break..."
This comes from a very accomplished young professional feminist....the younger generation of women who take a different view of feminism than the feminists of the past...they want to move beyond all the angry male bashing...they don't want it...
Think of it folks, just why then are older woman seem to be attracted to Sen. Clinton? They want their chance and they see it going down the tubes....and Hillary has led them there...with her own win at all cost mentality and lack of personal integrity....
Hillary did not lose the nomination due to the fact she was a woman, she lost is because she is being Hillary....will all of her blatant lack of ethics and morality

[New Dawn]

39. K&R

[RooferDem]

44. Victim feminism:

"Victim feminism is when a woman seeks power through an identity of powerlessness. Victim feminism ... is what all of us do whenever we retreat into appealing for status on the basis of feminine specialness instead of human worth, and fight underhandedly rather than honorably." -Naomi Wolf

[hardtoport]

46. I think the danger in HRC's claims of sexism

torpedoing her candidacy is that we may not take away the lessons we need to from Hillary's loss.

I do not deny that gender played a part in this campaign as surely as race played a part. But neither was in any way decisive in the outcome. In the end, the better candidate won. Yes, I know Hillary has an encyclopedic knowledge of politics, an impressive fundraising capacity, and a list of desirable attributes as long as your arm. I know that when some read " better candidate " they will produce Hillary's resume as proof I'm wrong. To that I say Hillary was right when she said electing the POTUS should be like a hiring decision. In my experience, your resume is only a small part of what influences the hiring decision, and no, I'm not talking about latent prejudices on the part of your employer.

Especially in the instance where you're going for a job that requires you to manage a team, which is certainly an important skill to a POTUS, I believe HR is looking at temperament more than anything else. You can be the most experienced person in your field, but if you cannot inspire loyalty, if you cannot develop the talents of your subordinates rather than hold them back, if you can't put people where they are most effective, then a leadership role may not be what you're suited to.

In my job, women are outnumbered about 10 to 1. Every time I've gone for a position, my female co-workers told me I'd never get it. If I got it, which I have frequently, I was a token choice. If I didn't, the boss was a sexist. Unbeknownst to them, I've always asked for a frank assessment of my skills and my liabilities in a job interview or performance review. Do I think I've ever been passed over for a job based on my gender? Sure. But I think for the most part I've gotten the jobs I was suited for and lost fair and square when I wasn't the best choice.

I think it would benefit the cause of electing more women into high political office to learn from the mistakes made by the HRC campaign. IMO, Hillary's need to be perceived as tougher than everyone else was the single largest factor in her defeat. From her AUMF vote to the Lieberman-Kyl amendment to her male surrogate's insistence on endowing her with honorary testicles, Hillary seemed to be trying to overcome what she considered a liability. Obama seemed to approach his racial background as a positive. I wish HRC had done something similar.

[FrenchieCat]

48. They don't have a clue......but they will in the future.......

till then, they are lost in the maze of mirrors in where they see too much of themselves reflected in Ms. Clinton who's own reflection she has distorted beyond recognition.

Hillary is a user. That's what she does best.

[jgraz]

52. Au contraire. I think many of them know and just don't care.

It's not about women, it's about power.

[MethuenProgressive]

50. Bunk.

And poorly done bunk, at that.