How come when a woman does something.......

[Darth_Kitten]

one doesn't like, she's destroying a whole movement, but a man doesn't harm anybody or anything?

Nice try, third-wave "feminists", but please do try to thank a feminist for all the rights you take for granted whilst you go walking on on that self-righteous, "I hope I'm pleasing some man, somewhere" march.

[cliffordu]

1. Oh, girls just don't understand....

:sarcasm:

[JoFerret]

7. What did you use the gasoline for?

.

[cliffordu]

22. I had to borrow my sister's truck to see a doctor some distance away.

[JoFerret]

23. Thanks.

I am glad you only had to make the one visit.

[cliffordu]

31. Thanks!! We really thought I was in trouble for a while. I'm ok now.

:hi:

[JoFerret]

32. Glad to hear that.

Would be interested in your transportation other than the doctor visit.

[cliffordu]

36. All bicycle all the time. No car for 20 of the last 25 years.

Oil and oil companies are going to kill us all.

[JoFerret]

67. No more urban sprawl.

Cities designed for people is what are needed.

[grantcart]

28. lol doesn't it seem like this kitten has 54 posts a day lol

[The Doctor.]

52. Ah...

She's a one-note kitty.

[Johnny__Motown]

2. Can you give examples of what you are trying to illustrate with those remarks?

I am not sure I see any parallel with a woman doing something to destroy a movement and a man doing the same thing but not harming anyone/anything.

[frickaline]

10. I assume this is in response to this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6116849&mesg_id=6116849

...though perhaps not.

[Johnny__Motown]

13. Possibly, but I don't see the parallel because Obama's actions and Clinton's actions are not similar

I could start posting video links of her praising McCain but why bother.. we all know the crap she has pulled.

Obama has done nothing similar. So I just don't see how they can be referred to the way the OP did, as if they had done the same thing,

[frickaline]

16. I could be wrong but

I don't think that the OP was saying anything at all about Obama specifically.

[Johnny__Motown]

29. which is why I asked for examples.... Maybe I over reacted.

[dorktv]

49. correct me if I am wrong but I seem to remember nothing like this being

said about Chairman Dean-I do remember a few people on a different board speculating that he would bolt the party.

[Gore1FL]

3. I seem to recollect a group of me

who ruined the Islamic movement by killing a bunch of innocents. Does that count?

[Radical Activist]

4. The same arguments happens in other movements.

Environmental extremists are constantly used to discredit all environmental leaders and groups. So no, I don't see a double standard.

[anigbrowl]

5. Ask a conservative what they think of John McCain.

[JoFerret]

6. What third wave?

There has been no third wave.
Just an erosion, corrosion, encrustation and morphing of waves one and two.

We are still waiting.

[ensho]

70. true

nt

[Kittycat]

8. It's kind of like a democrat attacking a democrat in a way that leads to the weakening of the party

As a whole... Like in the GE.

Or to be more specific... When a democrat attacks another in a head to head primary race by taking up RW talking points as the torch they carry, and endorsing the Republican opponent as qualified over their Dem competitor, all the while moving the goal posts for their own benefit, and segmenting the party in to groups to pit against each other, and using Rove's map to promote it.

[reflection]

19. Well played, sir/madam. n/t

[dmr]

54. I like your answer

I'm pretty tired of this sexism/feminism issue in regards to this primary. Sorry, I just don't see how this has turned into a full-blown feminist issue either. For me it's about two candidates. One ran a better campaign than the other. When you don't get your way you don't yell out an "ism". If the role were reversed, and the campaigns ran just as they already have - I would not accept Obama loudly complaining "racism".

I understand feminism as well as the next woman my age. I have lived sexism many times over. It is not pretty. It is terrible. HORRIBLE! It can be what nightmares are made of, seriously. Pardon the crassness: But you work your ass off and get pissed on, with no kind words to soothe your battered soul. That is sexism.

I don't dispute that Hillary may have experienced something during this primary, but I do not believe her losses are due to sexism, or any of the other excuses that have come from her camp. She was over-confident in the beginning, re-grouped too late, then said and did some things she should not have said and done.

Personally, I think she has a wonderful opportunity to move forward as one of the strongest and influential leaders in the Senate. That is if she can get away from some people who are more concerned with their own agenda than they truly are with hers.

Hillary has recently found herself a voice that is mighty powerful. She could do so very much to inspire many young women for generations to come. But more than that, she could influence and touch on every American's life for as long as our Democracy exists. She could be a voice to reckon with for the next 20-30 years - far longer than the limit a Presidency would impose.

I'm sure a lot of people disagree. Yesterday I was told that my thoughts were total bullshit. So what do I know, I'm just a small voice of many.

[POAS]

64. Rove's Map but Hillary has the

GPS in her pocket to help her follow the map!

[boppers]

9. When one is in a leadership role, one embodies the cause that they are leading,

She wasn't running as the first PRESIDENT who happens to be female, she was running to be the first FEMALE U.S. president.

Subtle, but important, distinction there.

[TheDoorbellRang]

47. Exactly!

I do believe many women who support Hillary don't grasp that distinction.

[reflection]

11. I'm not sure

but I think it has something to do with cooties.
B-)

[ellacott]

15. I was preparing a serious reply to the OP

Then I read your post. Thank you for the smile. :)

[reflection]

18. You're welcome

Although i have been informed I have a chip on my shoulder about women. Please don't tell my wife!
:P

[mamalone]

21. I had the same reaction to your post as ellacot...

My blood pressure thanks you most kindly:D

[reflection]

24. :)

:hug:

[SwampG8r]

51. here give me your arm

i know how to immunize you
its gonna sting but never cooties ever

[apocalypsehow]

12. Please, Lord, are we up to #3 yet? Please say yes, pretty please with sanity on top.

:crazy:

[AtomicKitten]

46. make sure you ask for heavy on the sanity

from one of these guys:

[havocmom]

14. What is damaging is not what she does, it is the sniveling of her & some of her supporters

when she gets called on the crap she pulls.

IF you want to be taken seriously, to be treated like a grown up equal, you do not make a bunch of lame excuses for screw ups. You do not go about attacking critics with legitimate questions or debate as being sexists.

Constantly resorting to that foolishness shows ya got nuttin and you have no interest in equality or being serious, you just want your way. It is not a mature, thinking woman's way of dealing with life.

Grow up and stop blaming others for what Hillary and her campaign did to themselves, THEN we might stop pointing out how the false claims of sexism, comparing Hillary being treated like any other candidate who fucks up as being 'sent to the back of the bus' or a Holocaust. That shit diminishes the efforts of the Civil Rights Movement, and those who did the brave things of standing up and speaking truth to power. It diminishes the deaths of MILLIONS by claiming the slights to Hillary are on a par.

It destroys credibility and it is not just men saying so. It is a lot of us old women who have been in this fight a hell of a long time, who saw our mothers and grandmothers in this fight and watch our daughters engage in this fight.

It does us no kindness to be used by apologists who will not accept that Hillary is a grown woman who had all the advantages and blew it anyway. It does not make us happy to have such short sighted political opportunists try to hide under the banners we have carried for generations the way bush and his ilk wrapped themselves in the flag as they diminished America.

We won't be used like that without coming at those who try to use us for cover.

Fuck that shit. We work too hard to have a bunch of whiny ass excuse makers run for cover and call others sexist when they are not. We will not stand silent while the likes of the blindly loyal HRC apologists blame her failures on sexists the way McCarthy blamed his own flaws and fears on commies hiding everywhere.

No. Won't let you off the hook for that crap.

[anonymous171]

17. Are you talking about the Feminist Movement?

[mcctatas]

20. Perhaps, when a woman (or more accurately her supporters)

presume to speak for a movement, their actions are taken to be a reflection of said movement. For example, if I (as a woman) wanted to run for an office, let's say president of a large country and ebbing superpower. Now let's say that I was competing with men who had heretofore been the only gender elected to the office of president and at first, I'm the frontrunner and everyone presumes I will win. But somewhere along the way another candidate starts cutting into my lead and I make several big and not so big gaffes....
If my numbers start to drop and I scream "Sexism" while at the same time using racially divisive talking points against my opponent (purposefully or not) and start insisting that rules I had previously agreed to are no longer fair, then I would say that there are some who might use this as a way to say women aren't ready to be president, even though it's not true and even though, on my best days I am everything that the women's movement stands for...

just a hunch...

[Forkboy]

25. Men destroyed their movement eons ago.

:shrug:

[ClassWarrior]

27. Masculists Unite!!

:rofl:

NGU.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[democrattotheend]

30. Please cut it out with the gender card

I would feel the exact same way about any politician, male or female, who is behaving the way Hillary is right now. I have lost all respect for Bill Clinton, and I think less of him than I think of her.

I actually agree with your second point to some degree. I am a young woman and it bothers me to see some women my age not want to talk about feminism for fear of pissing guys off. But I don't see what that has to do with this campaign. I believe sexism against any female politician is unacceptable and I have tried to call it out here on DU when I have seen it. But I don't believe that the example you cited above has anything to do with gender, and I don't believe that being a feminist means I automatically owe Hillary Clinton my vote.

[RainDog]

33. after you call out people here with your post

and try to insult, when someone says something insulting in return are you going to run over to the lounge and play victim again?

"Someone called me x or y!:" Come on, Heathers, rally to me!! Someone said something to call me out after I tried to insult everyone who doesn't agree with me! (Oh wait, you leave out that part.) Sexists! Oh, it's so unfair and gd-p is so awful!!! Let me come over here and gossip about it!!!"

Is that your strong feminist stance?

what a crock.

[mcctatas]

34. Well...

Hillary has set an example;)

[scarletwoman]

37. You know what's interesting?

Look at her profile.

Country: Canada

Hobby: messing with convention.

Cute, huh?

[ampad]

38. The OP has issues

Watch out that she doesn't send you a threatening PM then put you on ignore so that you cannot respond. She has done it to me and just today two other posters say that she is stalking them via PM as well.

[ClassWarrior]

39. You and they should alert on him/her/it. Harassment by PM is against the rules.

NGU.

[ampad]

42. At the time I didn't know that it was against the rules

So I just deleted it but if she ever does it again I will send it to the admin.

[RainDog]

74. I didn't know Darth Kitten was a stalker

but I'm not surprised.

[ima_sinnic]

65. don't even bother responding to this particularly insane POS poster

--she likes hit and run OPs, first of all -- I think the entire board is on her ignore list -- or will respond to certain people individually by PM, with (unfathomably) no repercussions of any kind, she is just allowed to keep doing it, no matter how many of us alert on her stalking-by-PM habit. She is also a Canadian who has never posted anything that is NOT nasty and has a strange fetish about US elections even though she cannot vote in them. Typical NASTY, disagreeable and thoroughly unlikable Clinton supporter boo-hooing about "feminism" and all that other bullcrap.

[scarletwoman]

35. Do you have any idea how many good, strong, independent women you're insulting

with this kind of obnoxious crap?

...thank a feminist for all the rights you take for granted whilst you go walking on on that self-righteous, "I hope I'm pleasing some man, somewhere" march.

The more you Clinton partisans post bullshit like this, the more I'm proud that I'm not one of you. If women like you are claiming to represent "feminism", then I want no damn part of it, thank you very much.

sw

[ShortnFiery]

40. Oh STOP! HRC and her supporters are undermining the position of women leaders -

Such stereotypically "victimhood" behavior is an embarrassment to truly STRONG women leaders everywhere.

Constantly "playing the victim" reflects poorly on our beloved gender. :nuke:

This woman asks you to CONSIDER:

http://online.wsj.com/article/declarations.html

It is blame-gaming, whining, a way of not taking responsibility, of not seeing your flaws and addressing them. You want to say "Girl, butch up, you are playing in the leagues, they get bruised in the leagues, they break each other's bones, they like to hit you low and hear the crack, it's like that for the boys and for the girls."

[Catherina]

41. How come this posts sounds like a 6 year old wrote it? n/t

[Elspeth]

43. Thank you.

I appreciate it.

[AZBlue]

44. How come when Hillary Clinton does something wrong and vile, it becomes an issue of feminism?

[cbc5g]

45. Meanwhile Hillary supporters are threatening to not vote or vote for McCain

Which could set womens rights back decades. Perhaps they should inquire with those feminists who fought hard. What would they say about this nonsense? They'd say shut your whining mouth and vote for Obama. Getting someone supportive of womens rights in office is more important than feelings hurt in a primary.

[ButterflyBlood]

48. If a man does it in the name of some movement, he would be.

The issue isn't even really so much about Hillary. Imagine if the shoe was on the other foot, Hillary was ahead, Obama was trailing, and Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton were leading campaigns threatening to vote for McCain/not vote. Would anyone hear argue that they would be harming the black rights movement? The same applies to those claiming feminism and threatening to support McCain over Obama. And that's in addition to already throwing many staunch allies of women like NARAL and Ted Kennedy under the bus already for refusing to bow down and get behind Hillary. The latter mostly, because it's a classic "cut off your nose to spite your face" tactic.

Look I'm 24. Most of the women I know at my age support Obama and are strong supporters of women's rights, but some are reluctant to label themselves feminists. The reason is basically that Limbaugh and co. have largely been successful in defining the debate and convincing so many young women that they aren't feminists if they shave or wear makeup. This mindset hasn't completely taken over the generation, but the current situation with many of Hillary's supporters aren't changing things. Do you think young women supportive of women's rights are going to want to associate themselves with a movement which tells them they are self-hating misogynists for supporting Obama? And that's not even getting into the ageist shit I've seen so frequently on this forum with so many talking about how the older voters are taking care of the young voters who don't know what's good for them with their support for Obama and so much deragotary attacks on Obama's young supporters. Remember, we are the future.

[dorktv]

50. Most of my friends are Senator Obama supporters and I ask them why

since I think that he has major flaws as a candidate and I really am worried that people are blowing his ability to get anything done out of proportion.

Most of them outside of agreeing with his positions (which makes sense) cannot show me anything that rests my fears. These are seasons political operatives too that were around in 2004.

I would have and do have the same fears with Senator Clinton since there is nothing that jumps out at me with her actual record.

[RainDog]

69. what about the recent legislation

co-sponsored with Kerry that funds veterans' needs by closing tax loopholes with the military contractor KBR?

-- this money also targets funding for Americorp/college tuition.

What about the energy initiative to develop alternative industries?

What about the tax plan that helps the middle and lower classes, unlike the republican tax plan in effect and continuing thru McCain that gives money to the haves at the expense of the have nots?

I do not doubt that Obama and EVERY other candidate who will EVER run has flaws and negatives. God god, look at Bush Jr!!! I think that, of the two candidates still in the primary, Obama is the FAR better candidate to get elected and to get democrats downticket elected too.

[SoCalDem]

53. Did obama "threaten" Hillary's life three times?Do his people go on every tv show

and "wonder aloud" about some "catastrophe" befalling her?..grinning from ear to ear.. i-musta-missed it, if he and his are doing this..


It has NOTHING TO DO WITH HER GENDER..IT'S HER EVIL LITTLE BRAIN..

[Raine]

55. It's not about being a woman, it's about being in the fore front,

being the first. You represent the others, what you do or say can reflect on those who come after. Why is that so hard to understand.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

56. *yawn*

How original, a bitter, old, bat insulting the younger feminists. Aren't you proud of yourself?

[VotesForWomen]

57. hear, hear. couldn't have said it better. nt

[RainDog]

68. so you are agreeing that if a woman doesn't support Hillary

she's not a feminist? Because that's what that last sentence says, basically.

Or do you agree with the first sentence - that Hillary and her supporters' whining about sexism whenever Hillary screws up doesn't undermine a movement.

--- Those same supporters who repeatedly claim they represent the "women's vote?" .. yet Ferraro cares so little about women's rights she's threatening to vote for McCain and a republican supreme court? -- so that her "leadership" therefore encourages Clinton dead-enders to work to overturn Roe v. Wade? Or is the "women's movement" Emily's List, that attacked NARAL because it choose to support the candidate it did?

I totally agree that Clinton doesn't represent the women's movement. She just pretends she does because it can get her votes. But obviously, if her closest advisers are promoting the idea of voting for the Republican platform, Clinton does not represent the women's movement AT ALL.

She's just another pandering politician.

[PaulaFarrell]

58. If Obama were cryig racism at every turn

I do believe he would be harming the movement for racial equality. It would make a lot of people very hesitant to vote for him and also for the next black person who wanted to run for president. JMO.

[susankh4]

61. He is.

But that's OK. Cuz men are always right, ya know.

Cackle, cackle... stir, stir.....

[susankh4]

59. K&R

Good post!

[ruby slippers]

60. um, Mike Huckabee said it, too....and last I knew he was a man...

[POAS]

62. Don't mind me, I just stopped by this thread to

pad my ignore list!

It was getting rather thin with all the "tombstoning" that has been slimming it down of late!

Now where was I?

Oh yea, Don't support Hillary and you are on a "self-righteous......march"! Yep that's makes lots of sense!

Just remember Darth_Kitten that the original "Darth" worked from the "dark side" of the force!

[dkf]

63. Gosh and I thought Hillary was trying to be a standard bearer for women...

Guess I was wrong. That is a good thing too because she is screwing up so badly, she would be an awful example to hold up to our young people.

[TeamsterDem]

66. Big difference

Hillary is happy in the role of female role model; she's made many statements drawing upon her femininity to wrangle female votes. Obama is not just a leader of males, but a leader of people (male, female, white, black, etc.). So when someone so embodying the female cause - someone who holds such commanding support amongst women and feminists, someone who's actively sought that support, and someone who enjoys oodles of vocal support from that quarter of the electorate - makes errors and demonstrates flaws, they'll necessarily be viewed as harmful to the cause which they purport to represent or are seen as representing especially if her supporters resort to the kind of behavior that's offending everyone else (i.e. if Hillary is seen as lying, then her supporters who seek to cover for the lie with yet more lies damage the cause by association with and furtherance of what's seen as dishonesty).

It's the same as when Bush messes up - which is admittedly a thousand-fold as compared to Hillary - it reflects poorly on American citizens if it's viewed as us being supportive of or excusing the mistake. He was "elected" (or so he claims) by the American people, therefore his mistakes are at times seen as ours. Her voting bloc is comprised heavily of females, therefore her mistakes will necessarily reflect poorly on those females who support those mistakes (race baiting, Tuzla, assassination gate, etc.) since such a huge portion of her base is female.

Think about it this way. My union is supporting Obama, but they're not overly "gung ho" about it. It was likely a political calculation by Hoffa relating to Obama's poll numbers which had a lot to do with the endorsement. But if my union were totally gung ho for Obama - aligning him with our cause as if he were one of us - then we'd suffer whenever he screwed up because anyone could make the claim that "you guys support a guy who ..." I heard that a ton in 2004, and that was when we supported a white male. There's no sexism in the implication; it's just reality.

I don't think Hillary is damaging the female cause. I think she's damaging her own reputation and the Democratic Party. But that doesn't mean others are totally off base if they see it differently.

[NeedleCast]

71. Another Dumb Post About "Feminist Purity"

You give yourself far too much credit.

[blm]

72. Hillary SIDES with men like Bush and McCain when they smear good Dem vets like Kerry

like John Kerry.

TeamClinton helped SABOTAGE the elections of Gore and Kerry who would have furthered women's rights, but she needed Bush's election to protect Hillary2008, and you think THOSE actions against women and Dem issues was fine the last 8years, so it could APPEAR a strong woman would rescue our causes, completely oblivious to how she and her husband protected BushInc so actively since the 90s and throughout the last 7 years of Bush2.

[yardwork]

73. speaking of self-righteous...