Jeffrey Toobin calls Obama on his lack of leadership over the FL/MI debacle

[Iceburg]

Dobbs, Toobin, Geller video clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r91oU9ILcZQ

Lou Dobbs slams the DNC over its refusal to count the votes in FL. Dobbs interviews Steve Geller about his lawsuit against the DNC.

While Lou is being highly critical of Howard Dean, Jeff Toobin interupts to make the case that Obama is THE problem with respect to the votes not being counted.

[Ian David]

1. I kinda think leadership on this is Howard Dean's department.

He's really not allowed to referee his own game.

[Iceburg]

5. When offered the option to conduct a revote -- Obama turned it down

The ball was in Obama's court. He chose to work against the principles of democracy.

[Ian David]

10. The State Democratic Party turned it down as being too expensive. n/t

[Iceburg]

25. Private funding was offered up to finance a revote -- Obama turned it down./nt

[Ian David]

26. Yes, because we all know that when private corporations are in charge of the vote, it goes so well.

[Iceburg]

29. I have got news for you -- private corporations ARE running the elections

and have been doing so for decades. It is only in the counties or states that use exclusively paper ballots (very few) that can be considered independent of the corporate voting process.

Who do you think sets up all the voting machines, and writes all of the black-box software to tabulate the vote?

[Ian David]

36. Exactly my point. n/t

[Terri S]

21. Repeating a lie over and over again doesn't make it true

It's not like the truth hasn't been pointed out here ad nauseum, but one more time

link

[pocoloco]

27. Give us a linky dinky so we know what the fuck you are

talking about.

[MannyGoldstein]

2. Why Shouldn't The Rules Be Followed?

Clinton and all other candidates agreed to the rules. The courts have repeatedly agreed that the rules are reasonable.

Why should rules be ignored?

[still_one]

9. It is funny that both toobin and dobbs aren't even Democrats, so who are they

to critisize the parties rules, which were clearly known and accepted at the beginning of the primaries by ALL Democratic candidates

[Exilednight]

3. And Toobin makes a piss poor argument. Anyone who knows anything knows that Florida .....

and Michigan disenfranchised themselves, and that the rules are pretty clear. Both states were warned what the ramifications would be, yet in Florida every Democrat supported and voted to move up their primary believing that the DNC was all bark and no bite.

The rules clearly stated that any state that moved out of line will at a MINIMUM be stripped of half their delegates and any other sanctions that the DNC sees fit.

[ima_sinnic]

4. how is it Obama's problem? can someone explain that to me?

why doesn't that fucking milquetoast, Bill Nelson, take some responsiblity here? That jackass sat on his tush for years kowtowing to Bush, but all of a sudden he came to life at the thought of "defying" the DNC. What a fucking asshole!

[Iceburg]

8. Hillary is the ONLY candidate that is fighting for a solution that ensures

the principles of democracy are upheld. That is leadership. Meanwhile, Obama is hiding behind a rock in hopes that the sticks will fall in his favor. I am sorry ...but that is not the type of leadership we need in these problematic times. Real problems require real solutions.

[lisa58]

11. It wasn't a fair election in either FL or MI...

...Obama played by the rules and Hillary is trying to change them.

There will be a deal at the Rules Committee Meeting and the delegates will be seated. The media just needs something to talk about.

[still_one]

15. Don't confuse me with the facts /nt

[lisa58]

16. Sorry - I'm not a good liar

[Renaissance Man]

12. Leadership?

Hillary is not displaying any leadership. Leaders don't willfully disregard commitments (you know, the pledge that was made that held the understanding that delegates from Michigan and Florida would not be counted) because they're in a hole. Leaders follow through with their commitments.

Hillary is fighting for a solution that will place her in an advantageous position. There are many Florida voters that did not vote based on the assumption that those delegates would not count. I have several of my friends in graduate school and law school in Florida that did not vote based on that assumption.

[JoFerret]

31. Leader sheep

.

[ima_sinnic]

13. "fighting for a solution"? no, she is fighting for delegates because she is pathetically desperate

she couldn't give a rat's ass about "principles of democracy."
those states broke the rules and they knew the consequences. DUH.

[still_one]

14. Really, Obama and Edwards weren't even on the ballot because they were told to remove their names

by the DNC

The same crap happenend when clinton's terry macallough was DNC chairman, and MI backed down then

When you accept the rules, and then you violate them, whose fault is it?

I think the whole Clinton campaign has more than demonstrated what kind of leadership qualities she has

[still_one]

6. Funny isn't it, that the MI and FL both were the cause of the problem

funny that terry macallough told MI to back down when they tried the same thing when he was DNC chairman, and that MI would lose their delegates if they moved their primary up

This isn't the first time MI has played this game.

and who gives a fu*k what the racist zenophobe lou dobbs thinks? He isn't even a Democrat

[janx]

7. "...we know that Senator McCain and the republicans will be more

than happy to have them."

She is telling this crowd that if the DNC allows Florida to break DNC rules and count all of those primary votes, then the votes are somehow going to McCain?

[Iceburg]

18. That should be obvious to any sentient being.

That Obama is not in their fighting to uphold the very essence of democracy -- THE PEOPLES VOTE will not sit well with most voters. By not fighting for these voters, we can safely assume he has written off both Florida and Michigan in his game plan. The phrase "Winning the battle but losing the war" comes to mind.

[Renaissance Man]

20. I call bull on this post.

The people's vote, not fighting for these voters?

Utter crap. Everyone who could have voted did not, and many did not under the assumption that the votes cast in Florida would not count.

[lisa58]

24. It wasn't a fair election in either FL or MI...

...Obama played by the rules, Hillary is trying to change the rules. This is a media event. The rules committee will come to an agreement and the delegates will be seated.

[lisa58]

19. It's all she's got....

...and if she had ever, EVER championed fair elections since becoming a Senator, I would have some sympathy for her. If she was a champion of fair elections, she would have said something BEFORE FL and MI moved their primaries. If the roles were reversed, she wouldn't give a shit about FL and MI so she can stick her "fair" election argument (wherever)

[noel711]

17. It's called 'pass the buck..'

NO ONE wants to take responsibility for the stupidity of the Michigan/Florida issue.
NO ONE.

Senator Clinton wants all or none, despite the fact that she signed onto the agreement of the rules.
The logic of the CNN idiots is that Obama is/will be the head of the Democratic Party, and thus,
HE has the most power and authority, and should make the final decision.

The fallacy therein is that: he is only the presumptive nominee. For him to jump in, and tell Howard Dean, et al, how to handle this is out of bounds. Imagine a baseball player telling the umpire how to call a pitched ball. The player would get kicked out of the game.

AND, in regard to how to solve this, Senator Clinton is certainly ready and willing to tell the 'umpire' how to solve this. But does she get called on it?

There WERE discussions on having a revote months ago, but the expense to the states would be huge.
No one wants to involve more money on this.

Don't blame Senator Obama... he followed the rules. If we start throwing out the rules, then we're no better than the opposition party.

A compromise is best for all. When you start changing the rules of the game near the end, all bets are off. Then next election, many states will start doing their own thing, and we'll have chaos.

I'm sure the Republican party is giggling about this. This shows that we are not taking care of our elections with what is called 'due process.' Not good.

And please don't flame me with all that 'disenfranchisment' crapola. Both states knew from the 'get go' that the elections were not official. No one is being 'disenfranchised' from the sanctity of the vote. The real votes that count are the ones that follow the rules. If we start counting as official any votes, then I'm having an election in my front yard, and I'll scream and shout and bang pots and pans because I want it to count. I'm sure no one will take me seriously, or bail me out of jail for disturbing the peace.

[Johnny__Motown]

22. The candidate should lead on this?? WTF?? That is like a player deciding to be referee also.

Just Plain Stupid

[Honeycombe8]

23. He is properly leaving it to the authoritative committee whose job it is to decide this.

He no doubt has made his views be known to the committee members, but apparently feels there are more pressing issues facing our country than spending his time on this. It's important, but there is a process in place to handle the issue.

He has made his views be known that he doesn't think MI & FL should be seated "as is," since they were basically based on name recognition; little known candidates need to campaign to get votes, unlike people with names like Clinton.

[Iceburg]

28. There is nothing more pressing than upholding the principles of democracy

Unless you have a few hoops to shoot.

Look, the onus was on Obama to either accept a revote or count the votes "as-is". He chose neither. He chose to sit on the fence and hope that the wind would break in his favor.

Does it not shame you that we actually have someone running for the presidency of the USA who eschews the principles of democracy?

By letting this critical issue fester for months, Obama has put our chances of a Dem victory in Novemeber in peril.

[Honeycombe8]

30. As I said, there is already a process in place to handle it. He made his views known....

and he moved on. He's not "caucusing" for it to be handled in any certain way. That is up to the states and the committee. He will approve or disapprove suggested resolutions, as he has done so far.

He said he might approve what MI offered as a compromise, but the Clintons rejected their offer. He said he might go for a re-do in FL, but the state of FL itself rejected a re-do.

Clinton is caucusing for a specific result...she wants the delegates seated as is, so that she will hopefully win the popular vote. Never mind that it is unethical and unfair to Obama. Hopefully the committee will arrive at a compromise w/the states and the Clintons. It's a shoe-in that Obama won't be much of a hindrance to any compromise, since he hasn't been so far.

[Iceburg]

32. Your position is that Obama takes no responsibility for providing a solution

Yet in the same breath you argue -- "He will approve or disapprove suggested resolutions"

So he is the final arbiter -- the ONE responsible for the erosion of the Dem bas in FL and MI. Surely, you would agree that longer this drags out the worse it gets for the eventual nominee.

[Saturday]

33. Of course Obama hasn't shown leadership on FL and MI.

Hillary won both of them and that means the upright Mr. Obama doesn't want them to count. Politician extraordinaire.

[AtomicKitten]

34. The rules have already been determined - the same rules HRC is ignoring

all the while working back-channels to try to change the rules in the middle of the game ...

The frustration people are feeling is entirely of Hillary's making. Her incessant moving of goalposts and flat-out lying about what the rules are and what a win looks like is an attempt at subterfuge.

Obama has played by the rules, is not the nominee and therefore in no position and it would be inappropriate for him to strong-arm the process, so he is deferring to the DNC as the arbiter of Hillary's mad scheme to bypass the rules.

She has been offered numerous compromises as to seating the delegates but declines all. She wants it all. In a giant pile. Delivered to her doorstep.

[Iceburg]

35. Lets put this whole issue of democracy in perspective ...

Its about the votes -- the PEOPLES votes.


The primary reason for not counting the votes is that FL & MI changed the god dam date. They did precisely what 3 other states did -- change the date of their god damned primary. They did NOT stuff ballot boxes, they did not mis-tabulate votes, they did not deny people from voting and now our party, the alleged party of the people want to discount the peoples vote.

The DNC have had more than 4 years to construct a nomination framework worthy of democracy. There is no question that the current framework is busted beyond repair and must be redesigned from the ground up. That said, the "Democratic" National Committee was quick to accommodate the 3 other states that changed their primary date, but has been dithering for past 4 months on whether or not to count the peoples votes.

Is the DNC view on democracy so distorted, damaged, and dysfunctional that it would discard the basic tenet of democracy -- the peoples vote, just to uphold its own tenuous levers of power.

[anonymous171]

37. It's not Obama's job. It was actually the FL state parties fault,

which is why they're rabidly deflecting blame at Obama. They don't want their constituents to find out.