Can the "your Messiah" meme finally, once and for all, be retired?

[Ken Burch]

Nobody in the Obama campaign, and certainly no one who joined it later(as I did)ever called him a messiah or thought of him that way. We just had normal, passionate enthusiasm for the guy. Why can't the HRC people accept that the excitement Obama generates is a legitimate, honorable thing?

Why can't they finally give the "messiah" thing a rest?

We like they guy. We admire him. We never freaking thought he could walk on water.

When are HRC people gonna stop with this?

[grantcart]

1. Amen

[Cha]

110. Hallelujah!

[mcctatas]

2. Only until he walks across the Potomac on his way to be

sworn in;)

[Ken Burch]

121. It's probably not that hard to walk across the Potomac these days.

What with Dubya's relaxation of clean water standards. You'd probably have to burn your shoes afterwords, though.

[PM7nj]

3. It is very ironic considering some of her

more fanatical supporters call her "Mama" and "The Goddess of Peace" (who would like to obliterate Iran).

[TahitiNut]

11. It's projection.

:shrug:

[JTFrog]

48. And brag about putting their Vote For Hillary buttons on their altars.

So reminiscent of the crazy Bush lady with the shrine.

[Kittycat]

94. ..

and who is fond of clusterbombs.

[Skittles]

4. the passion for Obama may be normal

but the hatred of Hillary is NOT

[Ken Burch]

5. It is normal for a defeated candidate who stays in the race only to help the other party

to inspire anger.

Senator Clinton knows(as you know)that the party doesn't want her as nominee. She knows nothing in the next couple of weeks will change that.

She knows also that she had no justification to keep viciously attacking Senator Obama after he'd won those eleven straight contests and established an unassailable lead.

She knows at this point that she's only helping McCain. As do you.

[Skittles]

6. *YAWN* n/t

[Ken Burch]

7. Look if you want to continue to support the doomed, more conservative candidate,

(or at least the one who targets more conservative voters, which is the same thing)

that you know can't get nominated, that's your call.

But you know the "messiah" meme was never fair.

[MonkeyFunk]

16. But she's NOT more conservative

and Skittles is absolutely right - the hatred is unwarranted, and that's what causes a lot of the "messiah" comments. Obama fans seem to think that everything Clinton does is evil, and they excuse everything he does. It's not rational.

[JoFerret]

19. Funny how folks don't get that bit

when blinded by the light.

[Buck Rabbit]

101. She still supports the neocon justification for the war. Regime change.

She may or may not want to end the war now, many of her neo-con cohorts are ready to move on to the next project.

But she has supported the neo-con doctrine in every major vote.

IWR
No Levin amendment
No words of protest when the proposed invasion pushed on after Hans Blix report.
Support for Isreals bombing of the infrastructure of Lebanon.
The prep work on Iran with the Republican Guard vote.

Hillary may well be a domestic liberal but she she might as well have signed on to PNAC as her actions show her to be a true believer.

[Ken Burch]

29. It's conservative to try to persuade the party that the voters wouldn't elect a black president.

It was conservative for her to say that she and McCain were qualified and Obama wasn't(and it was pointlessly destructive to say that when she and you already knew she was out of contention).

It was conservative of her to label Obama voters(or at least to let her surrogates repeat the label)as elitists, when you all knew that was a lie. And it's conservative of her to mock idealists. You can't run as an anti-idealist and then govern as a progressive.

The point now is that Obama can be nominated without tearing the party apart, and HRC can't. Her nomination would tell black voters they weren't welcome. And it goes without saying that after the Obama-bashing she's done in the primary that she couldn't do anything positive for blacks in office. You can't campaign against a constituency first and then serve it later.


I don't hate her. I just wish she'd kept her Wellesley '69 values. Her nom would be assured and victory would be assured. We don't have to sound as hawkish as Cheney to win.

[MonkeyFunk]

52. Well you mischaracterize

those things, then call them "conservative. In fact, they're neither conservative nor liberal - they're just campaign things. If I were so inclined, I could pick out similar things from Obama and just call them "conservative", but it'd be just as silly as what you did.

[Ken Burch]

57. This, at this point is the unchallengable reality

It is impossible for HRC to make the majority of Dems, at this late stage, feel that nominating here could possibly be a good thing.

Obama, who's done nothing to deserve your hatred and contempt, is going to be our nominee.

HRC, in staying in when it's long made no practical sense for her to do so, is hurting the party.

She would get nothing but booing if she were forced through as the illegitimate nominee in Denver. Can you not see that, finally?

I respect your loyalty, but she doesn't deserve it. She's just another politician. She simply can't be worth the damage nominating her when the party has made it clear it doesn't want her would do.

And it can't be legitimate for her to have campaigned as she did in Pennslyvania or West Virginia. Those campaigns were based on nothing but conservatism, appeals to white resentment, and hate. She never made any positive or progressive statements in those campaigns. She could have, but she refused to. Doesn't that bother you. And yes, it HAS to be called conservative for a white candidate to appeal for conservative whites to back her over a black candidate. That can never be progressive or honorable and no one who wins that way could be progressive in office. You can't campaign ugly and govern decent.

[Mezzo]

74. well since MORE DEMOCRATS have voted for her...your "feel good" analogy is mute.

disenfranchise the voters who stood up to be counted in fla and michigan and see where we are.

[CreekDog]

107. i wish it was "mute"

:rofl:

[Blue-Jay]

78. "fans"? Not "supporters"?

Clever.

[americanstranger]

117. Yeah, I've noticed that elsewhere.

Brush it off.

- as

[LordJFT]

90. She criticizes Obama for wanting to talk to foreign leaders,

she voted for the war, voted for the kyl-lieberman amendment, is against full repeal of DOMA, supported the FISA bill,is against lifting the wage cap on the social security tax. How can you say she's not more conservative?

[Chulanowa]

111. Hatred? You mena like the constant posts telling us what a piece of human filth Obama is?

How we're all doomed in November... and how the Hillary supporters just LOVE the concept of Democrats losing to McCain in the GE?

Hillary's doing a lot to deserve hatred. And her supporters are, as well. Loathsome, disgusting comments deserve loathing and disgust.

[gateley]

112. Both sides do that -- think that whatever our candidate

does is right, what the other candidate does is wrong.

We've become so emotionally invested we've lost our objectivity.

Or at least some of us have -- not everyone.

I'm hoping this is a reflection of the heated campaign, and we'll be back to rational human beings as soon as we get a nominee. Until we go batshit over McCain and the Republicans' slimy campaign tactics.

[smiley_glad_hands]

115. She's not evil. Just DLC. eom

[Mezzo]

73. More conservative? Now you CLEARLY don't know what the fuck you're talking about

now why am I not surprised?

[Ken Burch]

82. She has to be considered the more conservative after her West Virginia and PA campaigns

If you run as the "stop the black" candidate(unless that candidate is Idi Amin)you are the more conservative candidate. You can't run against blacks and activists and be a progressive candidate. You can't encourage working-class whites to think blacks are their enemies and be a progressive candidate. HRC has known that she wasn't going to be the nom since March. All of you have known it. This obligated her, back then, to start working to bring the party together, rather than use Reagan-Rove rhetoric to tear it apart.

You have to govern as a conservative if you run against activists and blacks.

[VotesForWomen]

85. no, and your incredibly skewed perspective is further support for the cult meme.

[Ken Burch]

88. You can't describe her campaign in WV or PA as anything but conservative

And you know it.

Progressive are always obligated to stay away from appeals to white resentment. And if you do win by appealing to it, it obviously means you'll leave POC out in the cold as president. Campaigning ugly dooms you to governing ugly.

[Mezzo]

104. and how do YOU describe Obama in Ohio? Harry and Louise flyers?

straight outta the republican playbook of the 90's and YOU know it.

Now gee, I wonder which one came first. :shrug:

[smiley_glad_hands]

116. Ever heard of the DLC? Triangulation only moves to the right.

You do know this right?

[KSinTX]

59. Who hates Hillary?

I may have used the word "despised" regarding her, then again there were Army commanders I despised as well. OTOH, there were others of them I admired immensely.

[Schema Thing]

113. shouldn't that "for" be "of"?

[juajen]

8. Nah, don't think so. NT

[Ken Burch]

83. So you'll keep on with it even though your lack of an actual response is an admission that it's bull

n/t.

[2rth2pwr]

9. ...

We have lost the understanding that in a democracy, we have a mutual obligation to one another — that we cannot measure the greatness of our society by the strongest and richest of us, but we have to measure our greatness by the least of these. That we have to compromise and sacrifice for one another in order to get things done. That is why I am here, because Barack Obama is the only person in this who understands that. That before we can work on the problems, we have to fix our souls. Our souls are broken in this nation. -Michelle Obama 4:15 in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCEsJ0YRuRM

Barack Obama will require you to work. He is going to demand that you shed your cynicism. That you put down your divisions. That you come out of your isolation, that you move out of your comfort zones. That you push yourselves to be better. And that you engage. Barack will never allow you to go back to your lives as usual, uninvolved, uninformed. -Michelle Obama 7:39 in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYXDYjHtsG8

"He's running a theological campaign," said the Rev. Jesse Jackson, who ran for president in 1984 and 1988. "At some point, he took off his arms and grew wings." http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/politics/national/stories/022708dnpoljournal.3ce8670.html


http://wweek.com/editorial/3425/10870/

[intaglio]

10. ...

[2rth2pwr]

12. a beam of light will come down upon you, you will experience an epiphany,

http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-9845595-7.html

"My job this morning is to be so persuasive...that a light will shine through that window, a beam of light will come down upon you, you will experience an epiphany, and you will suddenly realize that you must go to the polls and vote for Barack," he told a crowd of about 300 Ivy Leaguers -Barack Obama

[Cali_Democrat]

13. You actually thought he was serious when he said that?

:rofl:

[2rth2pwr]

14. There are thousands more-

"I give all praise and honor to God," Obama began. "Look at the day the Lord has made."

Obama's wife, Michelle, opened the rally with a description of her husband that could, at moments, have been a description of Jesus Christ.

"We need a leader who's going to touch our souls. Who's going to make us feel differently about one another. Who's going to remind us that we are one another’s keepers. That we are only as strong as the weakest among us," she said, echoing biblical passages.

Winfrey also touched on Christian themes that had not been highlighted in Iowa.

"It's amazing grace that brought me here," she began, adding that she was "stepping out of my pew" - television – to engage in politics.

It isn't enough to tell the truth, Winfrey said. "We need politicians who know how to be the truth."

"I do believe I do today we have the answer to Miss Pittman's question – it's a question that the entire nation is asking – is he the one?" Winfrey said. "South Carolina – I do believe he's the one."

http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=C1276B28-3048-5C12-00914D91CF0A11E0

[Heather MC]

51. "I give all praise and honor to God," Obama began. "Look at the day the Lord has made."

That's in the Bible
"Look at the day that the lord has made, I will rejoice and be glad in it"

Our Government is deeply routed in biblical principles, the Bill of Rights is the 10 commandments with the right to bare arms included in it.

Our money, Our pledge of allegiance all mention God.

If you are someone who lives by biblical principles, you can't help but give God all the glory honor praise and admiration. It's the language believers speak and it certainly proves he isn't muslim.

if you are not accustom to this type of speaking it may be alarming
but God's word says "We are Gods in this Earth" so if Obama is the Messiah, so am I.

The bible says, God loved this world as Christ loved the Church.
well the church is the people, not an actual Building, and the "Bride of Christ" is the Church

I know it's weird but I have not read anything that is not in line with God
and not true for everyone in this Earth.

I don't know what you BS is (Belief System) but it's clear he is speaking biblical principles, something our countries history is steeped in.

[2rth2pwr]

15. "I just want all of you to pray that I can be an instrument of God ..."

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2007/10/08/obama-gop-doesnt-own-faith-and-values/

[2rth2pwr]

18. "...I am confident that we can create a Kingdom right here on Earth."

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2007/10/08/obama-gop-doesnt-own-faith-and-values/

During the nearly two hour service that featured a rock band and hip-hop dancers, Obama shared the floor with the church's pastor, Ron Carpenter. The senator from Illinois asked the multiracial crowd of nearly 4,000 people to keep him and his family in their prayers, and said he hoped to be "an instrument of God."

"Sometimes this is a difficult road being in politics," Obama said. "Sometimes you can become fearful, sometimes you can become vain, sometimes you can seek power just for power's sake instead of because you want to do service to God. I just want all of you to pray that I can be an instrument of God in the same way that Pastor Ron and all of you are instruments of God."

He finished his brief remarks by saying, "We're going to keep on praising together. I am confident that we can create a Kingdom right here on Earth."

[2rth2pwr]

21. “I think that Obama, his election to the Senate, was divinely ordered,”

“I would characterize the Senate race as being a race where Obama was, let’s say, blessed and highly favored,” Mr. Rush said, chuckling. “That’s not routine. There’s something else going on.”

What was he suggesting?

“I think that Obama, his election to the Senate, was divinely ordered,” Mr. Rush said, all other explanations failing. “I’m a preacher and a pastor; I know that that was God’s plan. Obama has certain qualities that — I think he is being used for some purpose. I really believe that.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/09/us/politics/09obama.html?pagewanted=print

[Ken Burch]

34. You can't hold Obama responsible for what Bobby Rush said there.

None of us ever REALLY thought Obama was the "messiah". So stop spreading the lie.

[2rth2pwr]

22. ...

[2rth2pwr]

23. "I won't be fulfiiling God's will unless I go out and do the Lord's work"

[intaglio]

27. The Hillarian Catechism

I believe in Hillary the Mother, Goddess of Peace
And in Hillary, the Daughter, Obliterator of Iran
Who was conceived of the Mind of Penn, born of need for Power
Suffered under Barack Obama; was crucified, dead, and buried
She descended into hell; But in Pennsylvania She rose again from the dead
She ascended into Tennessee, sitteth with the Lobbyists and Racists
From thence She shall come to judge both Michigan and Florida.
I believe in Hillary the Martyr
The Holiness of lies and deception, Her community of few
Unforgiving of Obama
The resurrection of McCain
And Republicans everlasting. Amen.

with apologies to Christianity -

[2rth2pwr]

28. Can you provide something from her or the campaign?

[intaglio]

31. A Catechism is a profession of faith

But if you need proof of her lies there is this little video

http://youtube.com/watch?v=oxyrWRUfe1c

(thanks Jed)

as for racists and lobbyists - does Geraldine Ferraro's name ring a bell and Mark Penn?

Jesus! you nearly had me praying

[Peacetrain]

100. Enough already!

Senator Obama is a member of the UCC's as I am.. and we are people of faith..and are not afraid to say that.. but we do not believe in imposing our faith on others, but neither will we step in the shadows and refuse to acknowledge it.

The UCC's and their members get it coming and going.. A couple of years ago, the fundies took it to the networks and had our commercial pulled off because we just stated that all people are welcome. What an affront.. welcoming all people no matter their color, the sexual orientation, the ethnicity, their anything.. just welcome.

So please.. lighten up .. please..

[Peacetrain]

102. Let me add, Senator Clinton claim the mantle of faith

At an April 2008 candidates' forum on faith and compassion, Clinton said that "we want religion to be in the public square. If you are a person of faith, you have a right and even an obligation to speak from that wellspring of your faith."

[Ken Burch]

33. Plus, there is an irony in you falsely claiming that Obama sees himself as a messiah

And your use of an avatar that makes your candidate looks like a messianic Frau Farbinessa.

Face it, the "messiah" smear is a lie and you know it.

[2rth2pwr]

65. "He is not the Word made flesh, but the triumph of word over flesh.."

"Obama has the capacity to summon heroic forces from the spiritual depths of ordinary citizens and to unleash therefrom a symphonic chorus of unique creative acts whose common purpose is to tame the soul and alleviate the great challenges facing mankind."

-- Gerald Campbell

"Obama's finest speeches do not excite. They do not inform. They don't even really inspire. They elevate. . . . He is not the Word made flesh, but the triumph of word over flesh . . . Obama is, at his best, able to call us back to our highest selves."

-- Ezra Klein

Jan Young, 56, of Maple Grove, said the size and diversity of the crowd was unlike anything she had seen in politics in her lifetime.

"It's almost like the Messiah, you know?" said Young, a woman who said she originally backed Clinton but was drawn to Obama over the last year. "People really, really want change, and you feel it. You don't just hear it -- you feel something coming from him." http://wcco.com/election/barack.obama.minneapolis.2.644359.html

[Ken Burch]

32. HRC's invoked faith too. Why is it ok for her to do so and not Obama?

Nothing you've posted there proves Obama has messianic views of himself. And there's no difference between "He will require you to shed your cynicism" and "ask not what your country can do for you...ask what you can do for your country."

the "messiah" meme is an unjustified smear. Obama just gets normal enthusiasm. It's not his fault that HRC gets no enthusiasm.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

64. Because her preacher is white, silly. nt

[2rth2pwr]

66. "This guy was God before I was." -Obama

When Morgan Freeman comes over to greet Obama, the senator begins bowing down both hands in worship. "This guy was president before I was," says Obama, referring to Freeman's turn in Deep Impact and, clearly, getting a little ahead of his own bio. Next, a nod to Bruce Almighty: "This guy was God before I was." (Okay, more than a little ahead.) But Freeman is eating it up. Leaning in, he tells the senator to win it. "I will," Obama replies. "That's why I'm running."
http://www.mensvogue.com/business/politics/feature/articles/2007/04/status_report_obama?currentPage=1

[Ken Burch]

67. Oh come off it, you know that that one was a joke.

Obama doesn't think he's the messiah. It's not egotism or delusion simply to use spiritual language.

What did the guy ever do to you?

[2rth2pwr]

70. How many people do you know that like to joke that they are God?

[Ken Burch]

71. He was joking about the perception that people thought he was the Messiah

You know no one ever actually did.

You KNOW he never actually did.

It was self-mocking comedy.

You have no good reason to hate Obama this much. He's never done you any harm.

[2rth2pwr]

80. Where does hate play into this?

[Ken Burch]

81. Your obsession with falsely implying messianic self-beliefs that you know Obama doesn't have.

Basically, you're mad because the progressive wing of the party didn't accept that HRC was OWED the nomination, as those of you who backed her from the start believed she was.

You can't accept that your candidate had her chance and the party said no. So you're smearing the person you know is going to be nominated just to help beat him. Even though you know your candidate will have no chance in 2012 and has lost all of her popularity now.

[2rth2pwr]

105. It's not an obsession, you keep asking for proof. I can keep going all day-

Basic Training at Camp Obama.

On the verge of a hectic few weeks leading to Super Tuesday, the crucial Feb. 5 multistate primary including California's, Mack wanted to drill home one of the campaign's key strategies: telling potential voters personal stories of political conversion.

She urged volunteers to hone their own stories of "how they came to Obama" – something they could compress into 30 seconds on the phone...


.."Did that make more impact on you than if I had talked about his health care plan or his stance on the environment?" she asked.
http://www.sacbee.com/111/story/649427.html

____________________________

This sculpture is not from an anti-Obama person-

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=3006309
____________________________

[Democrat 4 Ever]

99. I like Michelle Obama. She would make a good First Lady but

your whole post is beyond creepy. Borders on cult worshiping. He grew wings. Like an angel? I don't think of him as the Messiah but evidently someone does with that artwork.

Just for the record, my soul isn't broken. I don't need it fixed by another. I want a government that works. Thast entire collections of quotes are just as bad as the neocon fruitcakes that espouse "religious" reasons for electing a candidate. I don't need a preacher, a pope, a televangelists, a rabbi or a grand pooh bah for leadership, I need a candidate that will completely pull away from pandering to the nuts who elected George Bush and separate church and state and get to work. That whole post made me sick to my stomach, is that what we have to look forward to if he is elected?

I just grew a really large dose of cynicism.

Edit - to correct the way I addressed the poster. Sorry, I thought you were the one who was preaching to the rest of us and not just providing quotes.

[JoFerret]

17. When the swooning stops

Deal?

[Ken Burch]

41. You'll stop the messiah smear when we stop feeling enthusiasm about Obama?

Uh...why? What is wrong with passionately supporting your candidate?

Is genuine political energy and commitment(none of which exist in the HRC campaign)really that threatening to some people?

[JoFerret]

50. Supporting and swooning are quite different

Obama may be a great candidate for president and etc. but he is not the reincarnation of JFK, MLK and RFK. He does not carry their legacy (except in the minds of the besotted). Nor was he born in a manger.
If elected, with luck he may become a decent president. Certainly a huge improvement on the one we currently have.

I see plenty of energy and commitment in both campaigns.

[davidpdx]

20. No, because it's the best RW talking point

the Clinton supporters have. It's a pretty disgusting one at that. Anyone spewing that shit should get tombstoned.

[cboy4]

24. Stop trying to speak for all Obama fans Ken. Maybe you

don't think he can walk on water.

Maybe you don't think he's your "messiah."

But there are quite a few of your friends here who absolutely do.

And they're the ones, just so you know, who are mostly responsible for chasing away Hillary Clinton supporters because they're too weak to debate differences.

[POAS]

26. If hillary is

"In it to win it" then why are her followers allowing themselves to be "chased away" from an online forum?

Are they so weak and frightened that they are afraid of words on the monitor?

Or is "I quit" the new mantra of the followers of the person they would anoint (not a word I use lightly here considering the context of this thread)to be the savior of womankind and leaser of America out of its long nightmare?

Maybe the talking points just won't stick in the light of reasoned, while passionate, debate?

[cboy4]

35. That's like asking a domestic abuse victim why they "allowed"

their significant other to "chase" them from their home.

I'm not going to even begin to speak for the people who've left, but many of the "words on the monitor" you talk about have been nothing short of verbal abuse.

It's no longer debate mode here. It's attack mode.

I'm a big boy and can handle anything that comes my way, but others aren't interested in puting up with it.

I don't blame them.

Reasoned, while passionate debate? :spray:

That's a good one.

[POAS]

38. No it isn't! Stop playing the perpetual victim.

It is not at all the same thing as being a rape victim and your use of such hyperbole just makes my case for me.

Well reasoned debate? Your a fine example!

[cboy4]

44. Ummmmmm, domestic violence is not necessarily rape.

Verbal abuse can be considered domestic violence.

A bruise can be domestic violence.

Try not to exaggerate what I'm trying to say POAS. It's unbecoming.

And secondly, I'm not claiming to be a victim.

I can take anything you or anyone else throws at me.

I can't promise, however, that I'll be sensitive in my response.

[POAS]

47. Sorry if I misrepresented but

the fact remains that their is no equivalent as you are trying to portray.

The people here are participating in heated debates. They should be prepared for some heated and sometimes illogical debates and arguments that can and often do become insulting. It is NOT on a par with abuse in any form. To make that connection is and should be considered for what it is, pandering hyperbole to promote a sexist agenda based on the false premise that support for Obama is equal to misogyny. It is not and the Clinton supporters making their unfortunate dramatic exits do nothing but injure their cause by such claims!

Perhaps that was not your intent but it is certainly the result.

[Ken Burch]

68. We have clearly established the fact that you can't be expected to respond with sensitivity

And you're hairsplitting again in insisting on making a distinction between rape and domestic violence. What matters is, both are acts of violence against the defenseless. Both are acts that involve misuse of a power relationship. And, as the surviving spouse of a woman who was a victim of both domestic violence AND rape in previous relationships, I find your comments totally disgusting. Nothing on DU can even remotely compare to either rape or domestic violence. You just plain need to take that one back, slim.

[cboy4]

93. What the fuck are you talking about? There was nothing in

my analogy insinuating anything of which you're accusing me.

And in fact, in my analogy, I insinuate how ridiculous it would be to blame the VICTIM for being chased from the environment.

What's disgusting is that you're twisting my words.

Don't lecture me about domestic violence and women.

Nobody defends women more than I do.

[AuntPatsy]

119. Well I find your comment ill informed....seriously, You obviously cannot speak

from experience and I know plenty that can, his comments were spot on, deal with it.You know one, congrats, everyone has different levels of acceptability and frankly, the remarks against Sen Clinton disgust me more than you can possibly know and from other women no less, sick.

[Ken Burch]

30. I speak for me. Don't YOU presume to tell me who I do or don't speak for.

And why you have ended up objectively shilling for the more conservative candidate who appeals to racism and resentment(which was the only reason she won the white primaries, since she campaigned on no positive themes in those states) when you know that any candidate that gets cheers in West Virginia would have to be antigay is a bonafide mystery.

If your the cultural resentment candidate, it's impossible for you to do anything progressive in office.

And we don't need to nominate a white cultural resentment candidate to win.

And we have always debated differences. You can't point to any times when we've refused to.

[cboy4]

37. No Ken, don't change the subject until I pin you into the

corner with detail.

If one speaks for oneself, one doesn't use the word "we."

"We just had normal,"....

"We like they guy."

"We admire him."

"We never freaking thought..."

That means you're speaking for everyone, not just you Ken. :eyes:

==========================================

And I'm not going to allow you to drag me into a Hillary Clinton issue debate.

I've said one hundred thousand times that I voted for John Edwards.

I've said one hundred thousand times that I defend Hillary Clinton because I don't think she's the monster you make her out to be. She's an excellent sentator from New York to have on our side.

And I've said one hundred thousand times that even though I'll throw up while doing so, I plan on voting for Obama if he's the nominee because I'm a loyal Democrat.

You know, loyal .. a foreign word to that back-stabber Bill Richardson.

I'm glad I was able to set you straight Ken.

[POAS]

39. Just speaking for myself here but

have you never heard of the metaphorical use of the word "we"?

Even if he was not using it metaphorically the use of the plural does not automatically imply "all". He could be, and probably is, referring in the literal sense to a subset of Obama supporters of which he is aware and personally knowledgeable about.

We await your response with great anticipation!

[Ken Burch]

40. You're hairsplitting.

And it's bogus to keep denying that you back HRC. Obviously, if you keep bashing Obama that's what you're objectively doing(and it's weird that you're doing that even though your CANDIDATE is backing Obama).

HRC may have been a decent senator, but it's now obvious that she can't unite us, that she can't win now by honorable means and that the party doesn't want her. Why is that so hard to accept?

And the fact is that Bill Richardson didn't OWE HRC an endorsement. You're not obligated to endorse someone just because you were in her husband's cabinet. Bill Clinton put Richardson there because he needed him. It wasn't a special favor and Richardson never promised to back HRC. If Richardson had made that promise, it follows logically that he wouldn't have run against her for the nom. Nobody in the HRC campaign has ever provided a spec of evidence that Richardson secretly promised HRC his endorsement.
And since Obama is just as good on Hispanic issues as HRC is, he wasn't betraying his own supporters either.

[cboy4]

43. I'm my own person Ken.....Just because Edwards is endorsing

someone doesn't mean I'm mandated to agree with it.

Are you telling me that you agree with every single thing your hero, uh I mean, candidate Barack Obama does or says?

I support my sports teams, but it doesn't mean I agree with everything the owners and managers/coaches do. Because I absolutely don't.

Not then, I'm very aggressive with my opinions in this forum to help balance out the disproportionate ratio between Hillary and Obama supporters.

And even you will admit you like it because I help make this place interesting.

Otherwise it would be a much bigger Obama circle jerk than it already is. :boring:

[Ken Burch]

53. No, of course you're not mandated to...it just struck me as a little weird

That after he did that you'd still be as vehemently anti-Obama as before.

What you still aren't getting is that he's certain to BE the nominee. Therefore, it hurts the party to bash Obama and to bash his supporters.

The notion that it doesn't matter what you say about them because HRC is somehow going to sweep him aside(or that Edwards would make what you've always known would be an impossible comeback) is destructive.

If you want to debate, fine. Demonizing the person you know is certain to be our nominee, on the other hand, isn't fine. It's too LATE to bash the guy now, and it has been since March. Why have you refused to accept this?

And, if there is are disproportionate numbers of Obama supporters compared to HRC supporters...is there a reason that you can't accept that progressives could honestly find Obama a much more appealing candidate? Is it impossible for you to accept that Obama may have won the arguement on DU on the merits?

HRC is unpopular here because she simply doesn't DESERVE progressive support. It's that simple. You couldn't deserve progressive support if you still ally yourself with DLC'ers.

[rucky]

46. Then stop addressing all of them...

as you would the fringe.

[cboy4]

49. Addressing all of them as you would the fringe!?!

:wtf:

[Citizen_Penn]

76. Perhaps offensive name calling like I've seen in this post

is more likely reason why ppeople would avoid this board

I do not like Hillary Clinton.

That has nothing at all to do with a single word any of you could say.

I do not give you that power.

Frankly, I could give a rat's ass what you or anyone else thinks of me.


I am not weak minded or unwilling to debate. But I can tell the difference between a debate and a weak minded discussion.

[Tatiana]

79. Who thinks Obama is a messiah? WHO? n/t

[cboy4]

95. BWAHAHAHAHAAH

That's a good one!!

:spray:

[Bodhi BloodWave]

103. Well, going by who keeps posting about it, I'd have to say Hillary supporters wierdly enough n/t

[davidpdx]

25. Votesforwomen spewed the line in another thread

Maybe I'll just post all the names of people who think that's funny.

[VotesForWomen]

106. what? i called him the messiah? you think i'm the only one? there is a whole website called "Is Bara

Barack Obama the messiah." don't know who puts it out, but i can assure you that i am not the only one who has noticed a certain 'deification' of O by his wide-eyed supporters.

http://obamamessiah.blogspot.com/

[JI7]

36. it's Hillary who is viewed as a messiah by her supporters

"goddess of peace"

[WeDidIt]

42. The Goddess of Peace Will NEVER ALLOW IT!

Sorry, it just got away from me there. I'll try to do better.

[Perry Logan]

45. I'm guessing it will end when Obama gets indicted.

[Ken Burch]

69. Since he's innocent of any possible crime, you know he'll never be indicted.

Obama hasn't even done anything close to a crime. Give it a rest with the smears already. You know that HRC can't be nominated now without doing more harm than good. Stop trying to make things worse for the party. HRC can't win in the fall and she couldn't be progressive if she ever did win. Campaigning ugly makes that impossible.

Face it, nothing justifies a scorched-earth campaign against Obama at this point.

[Citizen_Penn]

77. That is hateful speech!

What in the world run s through your mind?









If people like you support HIllary, it's no wonder she's losing.

How dare you refer to me as a c**t!

[rug]

54. It can but it will just be back in three days.

[livetohike]

55. They're jealous they have a lackluster candidate

It's the same old-same old tired Clintons here. Nothing new to see. Like a worn out shoe - it's comfortable, but you know you need something new.

[crankychatter]

56. Apparently they'll stop when he's crucified... then they'll blame some racist patsy

... they'll all have very public conversions replete with maudlin displays of emotionalism... lionizing him

when the Democratic base is sufficiently "radicalized" and politically marginalized... too late for a third party regroup...

it will be business as usual

there, I said it

don't tell ME none of you were thinking it

[Jazzgirl]

58. Well said Ken.

Boy....I am surprised by all the "ignored" posters here.

[book_worm]

60. Apparently it's Hillary who has the cult on some other site

[Blue-Jay]

61. It's unfair to ask folks to give up their snotty little "gang signs".

[GoesTo11]

62. Hillary's just jealous that people actually like Obama

Hillary wants to win with fear and pity. Obama offers inspiration and describes a path to a better future. With no vision of her own, Hillary can't understand that a better world is even possible and distrusts it. Her politics of cynicism believes that anything positive is false hope.

Yes, I am naming Hillary and not just her supporters. Hillary said false hope. Hillary had that stupid rant about the skies parting for Obama to come down. And when every single coordinated surrogate had the same point about cult, etc. right after Super Tuesday, that was coordinated by Hillary.

[izzybeans]

63. One day It should result in instant Granite Pizza. It should have from day one.

IMO. Only rightwing tools say shit like that.

[Mezzo]

72. no.

You people act as if this guy is the change we've been trying to accomplish since 2000.

He wrote two books...both from racists (he himself identified them as such, so shove the rev wright is right meme up your ass) and didn't hold a single meeting in the cmmtee in which he chaired.

[siligut]

75. Stoopid MSM.

The old story is that the messiah will follow the antichrist; W was characterized as the antichrist in publications back in 2004. Any angle that sells, prey on the religious brainwashed masses, easy targets, no surprise.

[VotesForWomen]

84. 75K people showing up to see a half-term senator from ill. is not "normal." i'm sorry; there is som

something not rational going on here. i've heard the guy speak; frankly, he can't hold a candle to the much reviled Bill Clinton. there is a cult of personality built up around him and it is undeniable; his supporters speak of him with such superlatives as i have never heard used about another living politician, and there's just no rational reason to justify it.

[Blue-Jay]

86. Do you think it might be mind control?

boogity boogity boogity!

[Ken Burch]

89. Why can't you accept that he could actually DESERVE that kind of support?

So now you can't tolerate candidates who draw crowds?

There's no cult and you know it. Nobody thinks Obama's the Messiah and you know it. Is there a reason you can't campaign for YOUR candidate on the merits? Why do you keep acting like Obama has no right to be ahead, or even to be competetive at all?

[VotesForWomen]

109. if he does, how come nobody even heard of the guy 6 mos ago? and as to what he deserves,

IMO he was the *least qualified* candidate out of the entire democratic field; the fact that he is the presumptive nominee only further supports the cult of personality theory.

[Ken Burch]

120. Nobody had heard of Jimmy Carter until the early part of the '76 race.

Nobody outside of D.C. had heard much about JFK before he actually ran for president. And "qualifications" is always a subjective term. Being the spouse of a politician can't be counted as qualification years.

And the fact that you don't understand why Obama gets the enthusiasm he does doesn't automatically mean that enthusiasm is undeserved. Obama gets that enthusiasm, even if he isn't as progressive as some of us would like, because Obama at least respects idealists and activists(unlike HRC, who thinks we have no place in the party) and because he thinks it's a valid thing for a politician to call people to try to be better people. Why any decent person would object to the last is a bonafide mystery. Idealists and dreamers are as important to the political process as anyone else.

And you're extreme shift of position from 2004 to now(as you described in an earlier post)explains a lot about you to me. You honestly believe that Nader's failure to win as an independent presidential candidate with no organization and while running against the Green Party he once claimed to support does NOT prove that idealism can't win elections. It proves that bloodyminded sectarian rigidity can't win elections. And it proves we need electoral reform. Nader's failure doesn't justify your hostility to idealism and the language of hope. And it's sad that you've drawn such tragically misguided conclusions. You didn't need to put your soul on ice to be politically effective, and neither did HRC. She could have won on her Wellesley values. Many of the things she supported then, and most progressive ideas, continue to have majority support. There's no reason to assume that our ticket needs to be as unliberal as possible to win.

[madrchsod]

91. my god you are right-----"cult of personality"

[burythehatchet]

96. oh my. How the heck did you get through the net??

[Texasgal]

87. It is becomong ridiculous...

As if people that support Obama lack critical thinking skills! :eyes:

Obama is my candidate, but DAMN it was a long thought-out process for me to get to that conclusion. I didn't just blindly follow him... I don't blindly follow anyone.

[JackBeck]

92. That would be nice.

There are many DUers that this meme insufficiently characterizes and many DUers whom for many months have sat idly by and watched both sides engage in nonsense.

I've had to chuckle to myself many times watching broad-brush statements applied to vast amounts of posters, when in reality it was but a handful of instigators getting everyone all riled up.

Every time I saw someone accuse "so-and-so's supporters" of being "such and such", I wanted to post a reality check for that person, in the hopes that would clarify their statement by simply inserting the word, "SOME". But y'all had your fun, while others sat back and watch. Good times.

[Liberal Veteran]

97. Shit. You mean it really was those wild mushrooms I ate on the road to Damascus...

...and not a HOLY VISITATION from His Holiness, Saint Obama of Chicago, telling me to forsake that false prophet Hillary?

Shit!

I'll see you all later. I have some epistles to rewrite.

[burythehatchet]

98. I'm not the most PC person in the world, but when I first saw that phrase

I feel my own religion being attacked. As though my own faith was so irrelevant that Obama is my messiah. That's cool though, I'll look forward to most of these asswipes leaving here soon.

[dailykoff]

108. Doesn't bother me at all.

If he saved us from a Clinton candidacy, he deserves the title.

[cbc5g]

114. Dont mind it, they are jealous that we have a candidate we love and admire

and its not hillary.

[AuntPatsy]

118. Oh don't doubt that the same crowd would eat their own mother

if they realized she meant to starve them....

And believe me, I for one would love to give the messiah thing a rest, it's frankly creepy as hell, but if the way to continue to keep him up so high is to ensure others are brought so low, others, you once admired mind you, than they have no one to blame but themselves for the disgust others feel towards them and their ways....

[cornermouse]

122. Try stepping back into third person and

reading some of the things that have been posted on DU from an independent point of view. You don't have to be a diehard Hillary supporter to see what other democrats (do you even remember Hillary's supporters are also democrats?) mean. It's very close to religious worship in tone and spirit and it's rather frightening.

[Ken Burch]

123. It's a sad commentary on the mindset of some Dems that they are uncomfortable

with the very idea of a candidate making people feel enthusiastic and inspired. Is there something wrong with having a person run for president that people actually CARE about? Is there something wrong with the idea that a person we could nominate might actually make voters feel that politics matters and that involvement in it is healthy and worthwhile, rather than a sign of eccentricity and weirdness?

Can you not see how self-defeating this fear of enthusiasm and conviction is?

I DON'T worship Obama. Neither does any other Obama person. I think the images some people have put up here were actually meant as ironic commentaries on the accusations of "worshipfulness" or "messianism".

Is it that hard for some people to accept that Obama could possibly DESERVE the responses he gets? And that those responses are healthy, natural, and to the good of the party and the country?

Democrats have got to let go of the idea that it's wrong for people to feel that politics could change things or that life could be different. We need to embrace the idea(as it was expressed by the French students in May of '68)of "power to the imagination". We need to let ourselves believe that dreaming of a better world does not conflict in any way with helping people in the here and now. You can do the short-term AND the long-term, that we can be practical AND idealistic, and that we don't have to choose between the soul and head.

[Beacool]

124. Errrrrr............never???

:rofl:

[ruby slippers]

125. proof......so yes.....