I really wanted Hillary to be the First Female POTUS... Please Read

[Yes We Did]

When Hillary Clinton first announced that she was going to run for POTUS I was so excited.

"The First Female President"

I, along with millions, thought it was truly time, if not extremely overdue, and that she would do a wonderful job; because the fact that she was a woman.

I thought she would treat this country like a mother treats her child. I thought she would bring a fresh perspective and new attitude; something that we had never seen before in a President.

Sadly though, since the process began I have seen her act more like she was running an orphanage, and watched as she treated this country and it's voters more like red-headed step children that she couldn't get rid of.

It's sad really. It truly has been one the greatest disappointments in modern politics. Someone who had such wondrous potential, or at least seemingly so, falling so hard and so fast because of one major personality flaw.

The inability to say the words "I'm Sorry"

Hillary Clinton has made gaffe after gaffe after gaffe, and each time rather than offering up a sincere apology, she either decided to half-ass it and say I "regret" if "You Were Offended" or simply deflect the blame onto Obama for... well... existing I guess.

I'm not even talking about her war vote or bankruptcy vote; as bad as those were. I'm just talking about the primary campaign.

First she signed the agreement not to participate in FL or MI (which includes being on the ballot; as that IS participating) and went on the record to say that they broke the rules and should not count. Then, after she wins what was essentially a name recognition poll, she blames Obama for disenfranchising voters there. (even though she has said that none of the Caucus states count.)

This of course happened after she realized she was not going to win the nomination without their delegates, and needed to change the rules.

But of course, that isn't where it ended. She, Bill and her surrogates REPEATEDLY played up the race card and them blamed Obama; even now she continues to play up the phrases "white voters" and "hard working whites" over and over in some last ditch effort to drive a bigger wedge between blacks and whites. We're not stupid. We know exactly what she's getting at. She's disgusting for doing it.

And what did Obama do or say about it? Nothing. He did what he had to do; he shut up and refused to become the "Angry Black Man" the Clintons were hoping to see.

I keep reading all these opinion pieces about how Obama played the race card. You know what I haven't seen though? ANY video footage of him actually doing it. So please, spare me the Hillaryis44 link. Got Video? If not... don't bother.

I got a video for you. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWe7wTVbLUU

The Clintons participated in voter suppression in NV and then turned around and blamed Obama... and continued to do the same damned thing in state after state.

And now the worst. She has a PATTERN of bringing up the possible assassination of Obama. No, she never says "I'm in it in case he gets assassinated" Of course not. Hillary never "SAYS" anything; just infers and suggests. And then she has the nerve to blame Obama... for what? Existing?

And of course, she offered up another half ass non-apology apology, just like she always does. Of course she didn't even address the people she should have been apologizing to; Malia and Sasha. The Children.

As a mother first, she should have apologized to them. We all saw what happened when Chelsea was brought to the forefront in the primary; Hillary defended her with full force and nearly got Shuster fired over it.

Where is THAT Hillary now? I mean, I know they aren't "her" children, but as the POTUS, I expected her to treat us ALL as her children.

I don't care what her motives were. She shouldn't have said it.

Plain. And. Simple.

And then we hear that it's just "faux outrage" on the part of Obama supporters. Really? I mean... Really?

It's faux outrage when Hillary Clinton invokes RFK's assassination for the THIRD time, but "fingergate" and "hand-shake-gate" and "baby-punishment-gate" and "bitter-gate" were all REAL outrage.

You MUST be joking!

No, it's not faux outrage. It's REAL outrage. It's disgusting. I don't care what the damn motive was.

And as far as I am concerned, I have permanently lost respect for that woman. There is nothing she can EVER do to get it back, because at this point I KNOW it's nothing but political posturing.

And now we all wait with bated breath for her to do the right thing. However, now I'm not sure she knows exactly what that is; or for that matter, that she would do it if she did. And that's sad.

Hillary, that is just sad.

[cliffordu]

1. Yep. Kicked

[papau]

28. ? - Obama had David play the race card - same way RFK smear - and he wants Obama video?

[cliffordu]

66. Blah de blah de blah blah blah. We got it, on to the next, please.

all bullshit all the time...

[natrat]

75. i dont understand, what bullshit?

[me b zola]

80. I've yet to see a link showing Obama "playing the race card"

That bullshit.

Barack said early on in the campaign that if he loses it "won't be because I'm Black". Does Obama believe that there is no longer racism in the US? No, he just saw racism as a hurdle (more like an obstacle course) that he would have to navigate around on his path toward the presidency. To blame racism, even when blatant, would have been political suicide. Many whites don't get it and would marginalize him if he pointed it out.

The race-baiting from the Clinton campaign, however, was real have many Democrats realizing that they never really knew the Clintons. A real sock in the gut for so many of us who had defended the Clintons for so many years.

[Fovea]

122. I volunteered fot the 92 and 96 campaigns

And wrote LTTE's during the impeachment.

I forgave the 'that woman' lie, and the spectacle of the wide stance partisan witch hunt.

I sucked up 'welfare reform' which even at the time seemed like a critical abandonment of democratic principals from FDR to Truman and Jimmy Carter.

I watched them destroy the nation's manufacturing base, and create a bubble that lifted all yachts, and watched Dubya run with that idea, living off the principal until the repos started.

I am so tired of Iraq, NAFTA, no national health insurance (or the idea of giving the task to the insurance companies who wrecked the healthcare system), evil doers, and giving the farm to big biz.

And OMG, am I tired of lobbyist Murika.

[Yes We Did]

105. The typical vitriolic remarks you commonly leave sadden me more than most.

And what really saddens me now Papau is your inability to back up anything you say with video proof.

It's called YouTube. If you have ANY video footage PROVING what you say, then please provide it.

Links to stories on Hillaryis44 don't count; neither do any other opinion pieces. Show me video proof. I can show you TONS of Hillary videos to back up EVERY statement I made about her.

[mkultra]

121. papau is a TROLL now on Ignore

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

2. This is proof of true gender equality:

Women are just as capable as men of being duplicitous, power-craving assholes.

[LucyParsons]

91. Yep, and why I was NEVER for her.

I feel bad for the people who STILL can't see how blatantly... well, all of those things, she is.

Sad.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

3. I just want

a person whom I can throw my support behind. I don't care what gender or color they are.

That is the honest truth.

I am sorry but that woman is not Hillary Clinton. Too bad - I would have happily voted for a woman whom I could trust.

[jjr5]

94. Agreed n/t

[Mad_Dem_X]

111. Me, too

I was excited that she was running, but now there's no way I could support her.

[Howler]

4. DemDog78

You have very eloquently articulated exactly the way I feel too!
Thank you.

[Yes We Did]

5. Thank you.

You know, I'm just tired. I'm just tired and disappointed.

I will be happen when this is finally over.

[Howler]

26. OH yeah!!!

I can't wait till its over and we can get to the business of kicking the crap out of MCcain.
I really wish the primaries were only a month long or so.Thats about all I can take.

[rebel with a cause]

99. In 2004, I got mad because the primaries

ended so quickly and the general election lasted so long. Now I feel the opposite. I want this thing over with. I want all the you know who to quit lying, making excuses and learn fair play. I don't care if they continue to campaign if they would only quit the victim playing and trying to destroy Obama and the Democratic party. It is not just one person who is doing these thing, there are at least two of them running against Obama for president. Shouldn't this be the first married couple for president?

Please just let it end!!!:cry:

[Howler]

117. I second that Rebel N/T

[unblock]

6. not to sidetrack a great post , but

it's actually "bated breath", not "baited breath".

"bated" is a short version of "abated" -- and so, short or depressed breathing.

not trying to be a grammar nazi, i just think it's an interesting bit of trivia.

[ForeignSpectator]

10. Nothing to do with this (great) OP, just generally speaking...

...but sometimes I think there should be a sticky post with the most egregious spelling errors.

Used to be amused by RWers total inability to spell correctly but sometimes it seems it's not their monopoly anymore.

[unblock]

14. i've actually found guilty of that lately.

i think the real culprit is the fast and furious pacing on du these days. i've felt pushed to respond quickly and move on as there's so much material and so few hours in a day.... and so not the usual level of proof-reading.

this particular case is a bit esoteric, though, it's not remotely in the same league as some of the spelling errors on certain rw "sights".

[ForeignSpectator]

50. Hey everyone is guilty of that sometimes, of course. But since you mentioned "sights"...

...I've seen that here, too! Only once but still, plus the "their/there" type confusions frequently ( although is that some kind of fashion now? )

Anyhoo, well-meant criticism has always a place so keep it up "grammar-nazi". :hi:

[Yes We Did]

16. Grammar Nazi! LOL

I wish they had a grammar checker on here. Sometimes you get going so fast, and are in such a hurry to post... Oh well.

[unblock]

18. those are hard things for computer tools to find.

"baited" is a correctly spelled word, after all.

[Yes We Did]

21. ...Which is why you will NEVER hear me say...

If you can't speak the language, go back to your own country.

[unblock]

27. good thing given that the english language itself is an import :)

[rebel with a cause]

100. And our english is made up of

English and words adapted from other languages. That is why our english and England english is so so so different.

[unblock]

103. yes, english is like rock and roll

stolen from all the rest.

[JMDEM]

71. What if you just ate sushi?

Wouldn't you then have baited breath?

[druidity33]

78. i've heard

and seen "baited breath" referring to folk who'll liberally use Altoids, gum, peppermints, etc when waiting for their "date".

:shrug:

[Ken Burch]

83. Really? I never knew that.

I always had the image of someone waiting with a mouthful of worms.

[Hard_Work]

138. How do you know

the poster didn't swallow a minnow? :)

[LSparkle]

7. Agreed -- one of the attributes I appreciate in women (as one) is SOFTNESS

Men are raised to be TOUGH, to be FIGHTERS ... and our
world needs half the population to be thus. However, I
was looking forward to a female candidate being able to
bring that SOFTER perspective to the race - after RatBastard
NEVER DEIGNING TO apologize for anything for the past 8
years, I was hoping that HRC might step up and (like John
Edwards did), say she was WRONG about her IWR vote, and
also vow to run a different kind of campaign, to run on
her own merits and not play the "boys club" game of run-
ning down her opponent(s). The very attitudes that I
looked forward to seeing in a woman were conspicuously
absent in Hillary's campaign ... and in that sense, I was
very disappointed in her. Even though I disagreed with
some of her policy positions (especially on the war), I
could have more easily supported her if she had played this
"game" like a GIRL, not like one of the boys.

[Nite Owl]

82. I was just dicussing this with

someone last week. I don't feel like I'm not voting for the woman because she doesn't act like she's a woman. She has tried to be the bully and the hawk this whole race (and before) instead of having a woman's point of view. She was so afraid on voting against the war or anything military to prove herself as capable as any man for the job but in doing so she lost the very reason to vote for her as a woman.

[Spazito]

8. Good OP! It is sad, very sad...

If anyone had tried to tell me, before the Primary began, that what has happened during this campaign was going to happen, I would have never believed it.

[dchill]

9. K&R

:toast:

[WillyT]

11. K & R !!!

:kick:

[Arugula Latte]

12. Good stuff. Thanks.

:thumbsup:

[gregjones]

13. Great post DogDem....

Black Americans, and many of all races are EXTREMELY disturbed by Hillary's insinuation of a possible assassination of Barack Obama. To imply that her reason for staying in the race is because anything can happen, then nonchalantly say that even Robert Kennedy was assassinated in June, meaning therefore she should stay in, is not only pitifully diobolical but incredibly dangerous.

As I read some of the comments, I sense that some do not understand the true impact of her deadly insinuation. Keep in mind, when it was first announced that Obama was running for President, the initial concern in Black America was his safety. "Would some nut sniper him"? Obama had to hire secret service security right out of the gate.....why? Because of the true possibilty of some nut doing harm to him or his family.

Also, during the last 50 years, the people who have been assassinated have ALL been leaders who were working toward equality for ALL. John F., Robert and of course Dr. King. So just the WORD assassination brings to us not only an extreme fear but is a reminder of the incredibly sad loss to America, particularly Blacks, at the hands of the sick and wicked. For Hillary Clinton, a so-called leader, to insinuate, for WHATEVER reason assassination....is beyond disgusting. It subliminally sparks the hatred, bigotry and destruction that most Americans have worked so hard to overcome.

Greg Jones
www.Blacks4Barack.org
A Multi-Racial Org...Dedicated To Truth !

[Cleita]

15. I think someone like Barbara Boxer who has served in

our Senate, sometimes putting herself on the line to do the right thing like voting against the IWR, is more deserving of being the first woman POTUS. There are many other women serving in public office today that are more deserving of being the first woman POTUS than Hillary Clinton.

[juno jones]

20. I agree.

The only votes I felt were not wasted were the one I cast for Boxer. I am damn proud of her and would vote for her as POTUS in a New York minute.

[IsItJustMe]

17. K&R

Truth is a bitch. It is what it is and it sucks.

[Swamp Rat]

19. I wanted Carol Moseley Braun

still do.

[Yes We Did]

23. Or Kathleen Sebellius for that matter. Or even...

Janet Napolitano

He should take one of them for VP.

[juno jones]

24. Me too.

I was living in Il while she was doing her thing. I respect that lady and I think she would be a great president. :)

[Egnever]

132. hah me too!

I loved her last go arround

[IllinoisBirdWatcher]

22. The outrage comes not from Obama, but from voters like

you and me.

I will be forever outraged at this last Clinton blunder, gaffe, misstatement or whatever they try to spin it as today.

After all, we all know protecting Chelsea (her 28-year-old "child") from even interviews by the press is so much more important than any consideration of putting the thought of assassination in front of Senator Obama's young children. They should be able to "take it." Because Hillary told us you have to be "tough" in this race and SHE is going to demonstrate how to be tough.

Yup, Great Job Hillary. Your personal Pandora's Box opened the way for your friends at Fox News. Thanks for all your class.

[Bette Noir]

49. The Clintons have rebranded themselves.

They used to pass for moderate Democrats. I voted for him twice, and I would have voted for her, if she had continued to run as a moderate Democrat. Now that they've cast themselves as gun-loving white suprematists who can't understand why voters would be upset at the implication that a non-white candidate is ripe for assassination, I will never vote for either of them again.

[rebel with a cause]

101. I have a question for the Clintons

If Chelsea, at twenty-eight (?) cannot answer questions from the press, not even from a little girl, then how do they think she will be ready to run for president in seven + years. This is scary that they are planning on this dynasty to continue. The way that bush weakened the constitution and legislative power, do they think they can now put in a monarch ruling family.:tinfoilhat: I know that sounds crazy, but who knows after what we have seen. That is why I want Obama to win, I trust him to move the country back to where it was, as far as the government is concerned, when bush went into office.

[riverwalker]

25. sending her children to war

I agree with you. I used to have this notion that when women obtained power, there would no longer be stupid wars. I once read about the Iroquois never going to war until they consulted with the elder women. The elder women in turn would decide based upon if it would benefit the tribe for 7 future generations to come. If true or not, I don't know but I liked the concept.
In so many ways, I feel Hillary has sent women to the back of the line.

[sagetea]

54. That's the way it is in your Matriarchal

Societies, The Woman has the last say.
Hillary, has shown us the dark side of Woman. I, too wanted a mother for our country, but she is not the right one.


Ho`

[ms liberty]

77. IIRC...

In the Iroquois Confederacy, the structure was that the elder women sat in the judiciary role, while the men were the (more or less) equivelant of the legislative body. I might be wrong, and I'm sure if I am, someone here at DU will correct me (and I'm happy to be corrected if so)!

[Triana]

29. Me too. You said much of what I have been thinking/feeling re: Hillary

[left is right]

30. I waanted to love HRC, really excited about her first Senate campaign

It wasn't long though that I began to be disappointed. It seemed like every time I took notice of her vote on any bill that it was different from how I wanted her to vote. But even with the disappointment over many of her votes, I was still proud that she was running for President and stood a chance. I did worry about the whole "bush-clinton-clinton-bush-bush-clinton" thing but I was willing to overlook that. However, as her campaign kicked into high gear, I lost most of my faith in her. Now I wish she would just go away. but the thing that really saddens me about her campaign is that she herself is proving all of those rightwing nutballs correct. There isn't anything she wouldn't do for power

[StevieM]

31. The age-old self-righteousness of the McGovernites. I have never been more proud of

Hillary Clinton then I am right now. She is a wonderful human being, a magnificent senator, and has run a campaign that she should be proud of. There is no shame in falling victim to McCarthyite smear tactics. And the way she has held up under them is remarkable.

She owes Barack Obama no apology for the RFK comments, this is all nonsense. She was clearly talking about the month of June. She accented the word June. Obama should apologize to her for pushing this story. It was his campaign that presented this interpretation to the media, who of course carried it.

It's interesting that what you define as "the right thing" is what gets you what you want. If Obama wants to win the nomination he can secure the needed delegates. And something tells me most people in PR, MT and SD would like to be included. It is almost amusing that somehow all will be lost if she leaves the race after June 3 as opposed to shortly before.

Bitter-gate was very real outrage IMO--I thought she took it easy on him.

We "all" wait with baited breath? Do you speak for everyone? And what about the people who vote for her on June 3? If they weren't waiting then does that make them bad people? Or at least poor, misguided souls, rather then people with a different preference then your own?

Wow...this is the very face of McGovernite arrogance. This is the kind of self-righteousness that defines a losing GE campaign. Obama and his surrogates try to reach out by explaining to people that they were wrong, it's a good thing their side lost and now we are being given the opportunity to redeem ourselves. Good luck with that attitude in November.

Steve

[Inuca]

35. Your frst paragraph

is mind-blowing and scary. The rest is not much better either. What on earth makes her a magnificent senator? Average and cautious is a more accurate characterization, but to see that or even care you would have to remove the blinders, and I guess that takes some time and is painful, that I can empathyze with.

[brindis_desala]

39. You do know that the Clintons campaigned for McGovern...

But then anyone can CALL themselves a Democrat.. or a progressive.. until it's not convenient.

When McGovern announced to the National Press Club in 1991 that he would not run for president in 1992, he gave a speech that was critical of the new arm of the party that Clinton represented. National political writer and South Dakota native Chuck Raasch, who covered the speech, wrote that McGovern “took a swipe at the Democratic Leadership Council, a cadre of more conservative young Democrats led by Arkansas Gov. Bill Clinton, who think the party should embrace more conservative positions.”

“We need a conservative party in the United States,” McGovern said, according to Raasch, “but with all due respects to the Democratic Leadership Conference, we don’t need two conservative parties.”
http://www.dwu.edu/press/2006/oct07.htm

Clinton: The Rove Candidate of 2008?
"Hillary is running the most Rove-like campaign out of all of them," Wallace, a former Bush White House communications director who worked closely with Rove, said in an interview. "She has almost operationalized the whole idea of turning your weakness into strength, message discipline that is almost pathological -- she does not get off message for any reason -- and never skipping an opportunity to exploit her opponent's weaknesses."

Even Hillary Clinton's campaign manager, Patti Solis Doyle, seems to agree, effectively vowing to run her operation much as Rove did his two successful national campaigns.
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2007/08/14/hillary_the_rove_candidate_of.html

[patrice]

43. ? Nixon was a good thing? Wanting to consider something more than two possibilites, War or Capitula

tion is a bad thing?

[Yes We Did]

51. Did you read it at all?

I never said she owed Obama an apology. I said she should apologize to his children, and in fact ever single american while she is at it.

And I never defined what the right thing to do was.

But go ahead, make up lies and insinuations; that is after all what you guys to best. And, while I'm at it; it's not a smear if it's true. Clinton is responsible for this whole mess. Nobody made her say that stuff. So please, stop trying to use her talking points to attack Obama. It won't work. Not now. Not ever again.

What also amuses me here is that rather respond to the substance of what i actually wrote, you decide to go off topic... yet again.

You want to call me "self-righteous" then go ahead. I call it being pissed off and sick of one of our own candidate using every dirty trick in the book and then trying to dust it off onto the very person she is attacking to make them look like the bad guy.

It is sad. It is sick. And people like you who excuse it really have no place in the progressive party. You might as well go join the GOP.

[ExPatLeftist]

61. I'd like to see some sources for your assertions:

- Obama's involvement in "McCarthyite smear tactics"
- That Obama's campaign presented this RFK interpretation to the media

Thanks in advance,
ExPat

[StevieM]

63. Did you read Obama's spokesman's statement? Or hear Axelrod claim that

there was an apology which they had accepted? (There was no apology, nor should there have been).

Here is a link.

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/05/25/clinton-defends-rfk-remarks/

As for "McCarthyite"...that's my opinion, that isn't something you can source. I consider Barack Obama to be a terrible human being, at the moral level of Joe McCarthy. And this RFK stuff is pure McCarthyism IMO.

Steve

[jbm]

86. It takes courage to enter Obamaland and say things that contradict their worldview..

you did good!

[rebel with a cause]

102. "In MARCH I began to think that

Hillary would go away and never come back." Now explain to me what this sentence is about. I emphasized the month, then March must be the subject. I don't think so, and I think you know better also. At least I hope that somewhere in deep down you do.

[eagertolearn]

139. You're as delusional as the Clinton's. Most people including Obama

have been okay with her finishing the race. It's when she decided that there would be no survivors and that if she can't win then no democrat could win. When she decided to pull everyone down with her that was when others started talking about moving on. Both Clinton's have played evey angle on issue's. I still can't see how any intelligent person can look at all that has gone on and still support Hillary Clinton. I hope they can get their respect back. They've lost many people who have always looked up to them. It is sad.

[StevieM]

144. They still hold the respect of millions, and I see no need for redemption. And the fact that Obama

supporters arrogantly say that they "can't see how any intelligent person can look at all that has gone on and still support Hillary Clinton" is why he is going to have problems winning. This total disrespect for one's fellow Americans is the hallmark of a losing GE campaign.

I totally disagree with your assertion that Hillary decided that if she couldn't win then nobody could. It is laughable, by historical standards, to call her campaign unusually destructive. Nothing Obama faced in this primary is going to compare to what is coming his way. But Obama people believe that their candidate is above criticism and that any challenges to him are uniquely reprehensible. That is the arrogance and self-righteousness that has driven millions away from him.

Steve

[eagertolearn]

147. Above criticism? He had that the whole primary. If there was something else

why hasn't Hillary Clinton used it yet. So far it has been associations with people and whether he wears a lapel pin and where he goes to church.

[LiberalLovinLug]

146. Ah sweet sweet self-delution soothes the wounds

Yes such a "wonderful human being" that "has run a campaign that she should be proud of".

Its useless to once again list all of her scurrilous behavior on the campaign trail. And to ask you to provide any proof of anywhere near the same kind of vitriol attacks from Obama (not his sometimes over enthusiastic supporters) is likewise pointless.

I'll just comment on one new point you raised on the RFK incident.


"She owes Barack Obama no apology for the RFK comments, this is all nonsense. She was clearly talking about the month of June. She accented the word June."

I went back and watched the video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vyFqmp4wzI

She clearly emphasizes BOTH the word assassinate and June. As in:

"We all remember Bobby Kennedy was assassinated in June in California"

It's clear that she wanted to imply the 'anything could happen so I'd better stay in' strategy. The 'anything' being the most offensive, gut-wrenching specter possible. She should definitely apologize to his children at least.

You Hillbots (as opposed to the more pragmatic Hillary supporters of which there are many) are so unreasonably defensive its embarrassing. No one is trying to attack you, or HER for that matter. Its her that has done the Rovean attacks. You are attacking the messenger. Because we are now supporting Obama (the only other candidate left) you want to lash out against someone I guess. Maybe you should take a deep breath, and recuse yourself for awhile, until Obama has been nominated and we are in the heat of battle with McBush. When once again there will be clear differences between your choices, and Hillary will be calling on you to vote for Obama!

[ekwhite]

32. I can't say I have ever been a Hillary Clinton supporter

I thought it was a good thing that she got her Senate seat, but the idea of Bush/Clinton/Bush/Clinton sounded a bit too dynastic. Her actions since then have converted my misgivings into active opposition. I am sick and tired of race-baiting, playing the victim, and crying sexism over the least imagined slight. I just want her to go away and leave us alone.

[BlooInBloo]

33. She's to small a person to contain the history she would have made.

[alteredstate]

34. K & R

Well said.

[trickyguy]

36. Yeah, sad. So we need a landslide election for Obama in November to set things straight. Or whatever

:bounce:

[graycem]

37. I really think that

many of her current supporters either fail to realize or just flat do not believe that many of us at one point in time held both Hillary and Bill in very high regard. My feelings about both of them have come about as a direct result of their own actions and words, not because of the media, sexism, or longtime Hillary hate, rather frustration and disappointment. She prevented me from supporting her and that's nobody's fault but hers. I truly wish she/they hadn't. It really does bother me, not being able to like them very much right now.

[medicswife]

41. So, so, so true

I voted for Bill in 1996, because I wasn't 18 yet in '92 and I really admired Hillary as I watched her fight to get Health Care legislation passed. I was a freshman in College at the time (I was 16 when I graduated from H.S.), and it was so exciting to me to see a First Lady that was so dynamic and passionate about America. I'm bummed that she's painted herself into such an ugly corner.

[graycem]

53. I know the feeling... :(

Bill was my first Presidential vote, I own both of their books, I even sent him a small gift when he had his heart surgery. I forgave him things that I disagree with (Sudan especially) and "welfare reform" because I know nobody is perfect and you have to appeal to all Americans, not just your die-hard fans. Now, this primary has drastically changed my opinion of them, I see him out there and I do feel sorry for him because I don't think he realizes just what they're doing to their legacy. He's let himself be dragged down into dirty politics against a fellow Democrat and it's just way ugly.

As far as Hillary goes, I always defended her, to my Mom especially, who always thought she was sarcastic and cynical. I just thought she was a strong opinionated woman, much like myself, and my mom was a little too "polite" even though she always worked outside the home and was a strong lady in many respects, she still was "old-fashioned." So, I really fully expected to be a Hillary supporter, I even faintly remember her exploratory questionaire thingy she sent out, asking if she should run and I gave an emphatic yes! because I believe certainly that she's highly qualified, and I always thought Bill was one of our best presidents, despite what the Republicans said about him. I just didn't think that she would turn on a fellow Democrat like she has, and disparage other like Kerry and Gore who have been good for our party, just to score a few points. So now I see the sarcasm and cynicism, and I don't like it. I guess when you support someone, you're so biased you don't see their flaws. I've learned about things that Bill did while in office and I feel so naive now. I'm sure I'm guilty of doing the same thing with Obama even now, but I do know that I'm not totally blinded because I don't agree with him on several points, but as far as his character goes, I think he's winning by a mile.

[othermeans]

67. Mother knows best! N/

[graycem]

70. That pisses me off too..

I hate it when I'm wrong! :P

[rebel with a cause]

104. My daughter gave his book to Goodwill unread.

She had purchased it but not had time to read it. She said she wanted to burn it, but her love of books wouldn't let her. And before anyone thinks differently, we were all supporters of the Clintons before this happened. Now I was an Obama supporter from the 2004 but it took this campaign to see the Clintons as they are, and to feel sick at my stomach that the RW, whom I hate, may have been right about them all along. :cry:

[patrice]

45. And if we didn't hold them in "high regard", we WERE holding the door open. nt

[Politicalboi]

57. Yup me too

And I agree with the post too. It wasn't the media that turned me off to her but the lies mostly.

[Prophet 451]

72. Agreed

I also think many of the die-hard Hillary supporters (there's one upthread and a couple of others who will probably show up) have caught the Republican disease of believing the world is as you say simply because you say so.

[Yael]

38. You speak for me!

K&R

[patrice]

40. One of the best posts I've ever read on the DU.You show that there are Rational people processing

the crazy stuff that is churning out of supporters on both sides AND not losing their minds dealing with what's going on.

The First Female President

Even though I had my doubts because of the IWR, I was willing to give her a headstart simply because she is a Woman. I think it healthy for US to get over ALL of our Discriminations and beginning with Women would be a good political place to start, because Women cross-over all of the other Discriminations. I was with Edwards for a few months, because of his genuinely Populist message, but when he suspended, I was hoping she'd take the lead in my Mind and Heart.

I thought she would treat this country like a mother treats her child.

I was waiting for that too, especially how a Mother teaches a child who is making the transition into young-adult hood by explaining the way things REALLY are to the child. This would have given her an opportunity to tell us the whole story about the IWR.

The inability to say the words "I'm Sorry"

"I'm Sorry" begins with "I understand how/why you see my actions as you do." That's what I needed to hear more than anything else. Even if she still came down on the wrong side of an Issue as far as I am concerned, if she at least could demonstrate that she was capable of understand other pointsw of view and had taken those into consideration as she made her decision, I could still accept her leadership. I don't always demand agreement, but I do always NEED understanding.

I'm not even talking about her war vote or bankruptcy vote; as bad as those were.

Lots of us understand how politics work, so EVEN FOR ME, as strong as I am against the Invasion and Occupation of Iraq, I was waiting for her to demonstrate honesty about the IWR. All we ever got from her were excuses, no recognition of the flaws in her judgement processes that resulted in the IWR. She needed to let us know that she recognized her errors, so we had some degree of assurance that she could CORRECT herself and NOT REPEAT THE SAME MISTAKES IN THAT SAME ENVIRONMENT IN THE FUTURE. (If your daughter goes out and gets drunk and does something dangerous or indiscreet, do you lock her in the closet forever? No, you help her recognize her errors and watch to see if she demonstrates some form of functional adaptation to what lead her astray in the first place.)

This of course happened after she realized she was not going to win the nomination without their delegates, and needed to change the rules.

In this, she is following the same deconstructive process that she thinks Obama is using, but by now she's using it for a different constituency (the Slaves of Neo-Cons) and she is being in-descriminate in her use of deconstruction, whereas Obama (though perhaps not his freelance supporters) is NOT being absolutely in-descriminate in what he is deconstructing, but rather very strategic AND bidding for a different constituency (Us).

And what did Obama do or say about it? Nothing. He did what he had to do; he shut up and refused to become the "Angry Black Man" the Clintons were hoping to see.

He's been in control of the situations all of the way. Ever since the IWR, she has shown that she is a REACTIONARY and Obama has been showing that he is a PRO-ACTIONARY and a Pro-actionary is what we need to control the influences of the Trans-National corporations.

The Clintons participated in voter suppression in NV and then turned around and blamed Obama... and continued to do the same damned thing in state after state.

I saw yesterday a reference from Woodward's book State of Denial about how she pressured Edwards in '04 to get Kerry to stop any challenge to the vote in Ohio.

I don't care what her motives were. She shouldn't have said it.

Whatever her motives and whatever anyone, like KO, has done since, she should not have said these things once, let alone three times. No one seems to be advising her on how other people perceive what she says. Her campaign needs to understand how their candidate is being understood by voters, whether they agree with them or not. And in making their choices, voters need to know that they are understood by the candidates.

And then we hear that it's just "faux outrage" on the part of Obama supporters. Really? I mean... Really?

As though ALL Outrage is false and there is no such thing as genuine Just Anger and if there were it would be decreed by someone who has the "authority" to do so.

And now we all wait with baited breath for her to do the right thing. However, now I'm not sure she knows exactly what that is; or for that matter, that she would do it if she did. And that's sad.

Hillary, that is just sad.

It IS sad that a campaign with as much potential as hers was mislead by her advisers and by HERSELF, because she thought she could out game William Penn et al. And now it is TOO LATE to change what has been revealed by that process.

[Ken Burch]

42. I would gladly have backed a strong progressive, antiwar, genuinely feminist woman.

But Barbara Lee sat this one out, for some reason.

Our first female nominee doesn't have to be Scoop Jackson in a pantsuit.

[patrice]

46. I hear from factions in Feminist sectors who say some of the "Man-hating" support HC has

is Class Exploitation. Lower economic class females have not had the economic luxury of developing into "Men Haters".

And though it is just anecdotal evidence, I've heard enough "I will never vote for a man again" call-ins on AAR, that I would suspect their level of passion at least somewhat representative of a significant minority inside HC's camp.

[HooptieWagon]

73. I have a bunch of younger (20s) feminist friends...

both lesbian and straight. They have explained to this older guy what they are about... and that they aren't men-haters. In fact, they really enjoy men, even the lesbians (although they don't want to sleep with them). I must say I really like and appreciate this new breed of feminism. Remember, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar... BTW, my friends are all voting for Obama (most were Kucinich supporters, as was I) - they don't consider HRC a feminist... and possibly they are concerned about a draft to feed bodies to hillary's war-mongering.

[patrice]

76. Yes! Apparently their is some division in their movement. Not at all surprising and

even essential to a healthy movement, depending upon how they deal with the differences.

I understand your Feminist Friends' perspective: I've had Gay friends who most certainly didn't hate Women. I know that I enjoyed them in ways I was less able to enjoy Hetero Men, because with them male:female sexual politics were ir-relevant. I didn't have to affirm their masculinity in any way, freeing me to enjoy them as persons and they reciprocated the experience.

There is also some discussion of the differences between HOW Women prove their equality with Men: by developing to the fullest their uniquely Feminine qualities? or by developing to their fullest their abilities to do what Men do?

[eridani]

107. In order to hate someone, you have to get close to them

Lesbians ignore men (in a sexual sense) and therefore are less likely to feel anything for a man similar to what an ex-wife feels for her ex-husband. I think the whole "man-hating" meme got started because there are always a few men who would prefer being hated to being ignored.

[HooptieWagon]

148. Partly true...

I do know some "man-hating" divorcees, most seem to get over it after a while. Some end up getting together with a guy just as flawed as the ex... I guess they can't avoid following that same rut.

I did know several lesbian man-haters (all older). They used to hang out at a biker bar I'd go to occasionally. We'd get a kick out of them. One time Jill (the biggest, meanest, surliest,man-hatingest lesbian biker of all) saw my ex college roomate coming in with her friends, and growled that she hated "perky". I "clued her in" that that woman (my ex-roomate) had murdered her "husband" and had gotten away with it. Jill thought for a second, her face lit up, and she hollered to my ex-roomate: "Hey darling! C'mon over here and let me buy you a drink!" Talk about ROTFLMAO, and I'm not sure Jill ever figured out the joke was on her...

[eridani]

153. Probably due to the fact that really "obvious" lesbians in the good ol' days--

--regularly had the shit kicked out of them by gangs of men.

[HooptieWagon]

155. Jill could kick the shit out of a gang of men...

only thing she was afraid of was when Dr Death (the bartender) would tell her to sit down and put her gun away or he'd cut her off for the night. Of course, as soon as we heard "gun", we were diving under the pool tables....

[Ken Burch]

44. Great OP

My only quibble is, you wouldn't always want a president who'd treat the country "like a mother treats her child". Just think what the Joan Crawford Administration would've been like.



:spank: :scared:

[Politicalboi]

60. Your Right

Yikes "Wire Hangers"

[nachoproblem]

62. That's a good point

since I think a lot of Americans don't want to be treated like children in ANY sense, good or bad.

It's interesting that many people who were moved by Obama's first speech about Reverend Wright and racial issues gave the same reason: that it was the first time they had heard a politician address the country "as if we were adults." A lot of them also felt that about his "bittergate" remarks, so it's interesting that some people are still trying to call it an outrage. I remember saying that anybody who was so offended over his choice of words obviously wants to be treated like a child; I was just being pissy at the time, but now I begin to think perhaps it's true. As far as political acumen the "bitterness" remarks they could have come right out of "What's the Matter With Kansas?" for the point that was made, but that somebody would have the audacity to say such things "in front of the children" -- to hurt their feelings by suggesting that they were acting like, well, children -- shocking! That we can all be expected to grow up at some point... how dare you speak that way about my little angels!?!?!?!?

No, I appreciate the OP's point about how Hillary could bring matriarchal qualities to the office. But I think it's clear by now that what she's bringing is the dark side of those qualities. Psycho Mom is not something good for the country.

(For what it's worth I am not one of the people who think Hillary is running a campaign of terror with repeated references to RFK's assassination. I think she happens to have painted over her whole worldview with one giant brush, covering over with the same color any facts that protrude inconveniently like how political assassination and the Kennedys might be a touchy subject, or what actually happened when she landed in Bosnia, so that she doesn't even notice them.)

[cloudythescribbler]

47. How much difference would it make to those who wanted a woman POTUS if Obama picked a woman VP?

Not Hillary --

I suppose this should be a separate poll, though it would be difficult to figure out who the sample is

[ramapo]

48. It is sad

I have lost all respect for her. Not long ago I had the utmost in respect and admiration and would've been happy with her as president...honestly not thrilled with the whole two-family control thing, but that was not a major problem for me. Now she scares me and no longer do I feel she has any place leading our country.

[Yes We Did]

52. WOW! I finally got a thread on the first page!!!

Thanks for all the comments and recs!
:woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo:

[NanceGreggs]

55. Excellent, excellent, excellent!!!

:kick: & REC'D!!!

[Willo]

56. Really really well said Demdog

The only question left is how will she allow this to end.
I have no reason to believe she will exit on a positive note.
I expect she will end the same way she ran, fighting negatively, against the will of the voters, lying and casting blame.
It will be loud, ugly and embarrassing.

[hardtoport]

58. Good post.

I, too, was thrilled when Hillary announced she was running and was in love with the idea of having a female president.

Then I discovered Hillary is on the DLC Leadership council. The DLC's desire for Democrats to cease being an opposition party will reduce this nation to a deMOCKracy. I will never vote for any DLC'er in a primary because I believe the DLC is asking us to sell out our principles for the illusion of a sure win.

How's the " capitulation as a plank of the party " method worked for us? It may have gotten us a few seats, but it sure hasn't ended the Iraq war or brought an end to the right's march toward a police state. Pretending to be a Republican hasn't gotten a Democrat into the WH. Bill Clinton was elected on a far more progressive platform than he governed on. Had he run as Bush lite, he wouldn't have won.

I thought this board was progressive, and yet I hear the word " McGovernite " and predictions that John McCain's sorry ass will beat a Democratic nominee, and I have to wonder if I wandered into the wrong place. Well, I say better a McGovernite than a McCainite.

[Lisa0825]

69. Welcome to DU!

I used to turn red defending the Clintons against wingnuts. Back then, I thought she would be president some day. Then came the IWR, and I began to educate myself more about her husband's administration, NAFTA, the DLC, etc. I have not been a fan of theirs since.

[hardtoport]

84. Thanks! I'm glad to be here.

Even though I lived through Bill Clinton's presidency, I didn't really see what was going on at the time. I just knew I was glad to be rid of a Bush. When I look at the things that went on behind the scenes, I have to wonder why the Republicans were so fascinated with his sex life when there were so many other transgressions. I was absolutely flabbergasted to find out that extraordinary renditions were begun on his watch, as was the precipitating event for the current collapse of the financial sector, the repeal of the Glass Steagall Act.

[DerekJ]

59. Nice Post. K & R

[Joe Chi Minh]

64. K&R

[deerheadgal]

65. I feel the same way

I so wanted this to work for her, but I just don't think she can come back from the place she's moved into. She had choices all along the way, but IMHO, she made the wrong ones and is incapable of backtracking. Now all that's left is this undignified, sad, hopeless campaign that is so far from who she used to be.

[nolabels]

68. To OP: It was better this way and get over it already

Mostly anything thing i post after that could be construed into whatever, so consider this a N/T

[Yes We Did]

79. Get over it? Not likely.

And it didn't have to be this way, and it isn't better that it did turn out this way. Aside from that, you can consider this a N/T

[Cha]

74. Beautiful demdog!

Important to think of the children which hilary never does..just herself.

Always about poor little fucked up hilary.

[mnhtnbb]

81. I don't want to be treated as a child by any politician. I'm an adult.

[TBF]

87. I want to be treated as an adult as well. And that is why I am supporting

Obama - he speaks to me as if I'm an adult capable of independent thought and reasoning. It's also why he will win the General Election. People have had 8 years of a frat boy playing "run the country" and they are ready for a grown-up to take over.

[eagertolearn]

140. Speaking about being treated as a child I feel like McCain is telling a bed time story

to his grandchildren when ever I hear him speak. This is a little off the subject but you reminded me of McCain when you said you liked to be talked to like an adult!

[jenmito]

85. K&R. Wow-EXCELLENT post!

:toast:

[Lost-in-FL]

88. Looking back, I am glad...

I decided not to go to the polls in January. I was to cast my vote for Hillary then but because of the electoral fiasco here in FL I decided to stay at work.

[defendandprotect]

89. HRC is DLC and, therefore, would never have had my vote ---

and as far as I'm concerned, yes a female would be great --- but not HRC --- never!!

Great post . . . well said!

Sadly, I think tomorrow we face the bull dog determination of HRC again --- unbelievably!!!

[bertman]

90. BEAUTIFUL. Now I don't have to write all of that stuff.

[Az_lefty]

92. I would love to live to see the 1st femal POTUS or the 1st black POTUS or ...

the first Hispanic POTUS or the first (fill in the blank) POTUS. I love it when those whose ancestors were looked down upon and even trampled on, make it to the very top in our country. That, says's a lot about who we are as a country and how far we have come. As for Hillary, she simply beat herself.

[jsmirman]

93. One of the few times I have nothing more to say than- K & R!

nm

[LaStrega]

95. spot on! k/r n/t

[davidpdx]

96. Demdog

Well put, I think there are many people disappointed by the way the Clinton campaign was run and don't want to give up.

I posted a thread about the discussion on MTP last week between Doris Godwin and Gwen Ifill about woman's disappointment and anger over Hillary Clinton's inability to win the primary.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6130902&mesg_id=6130902

[Citizen_Penn]

97. True Equality will come when we DON'T consider

the race or gender of the candidate.

Perhaps the insanity in some activists is their attachment to race or gender.

It's not about their classifications. Rather their character, experience, intelligence, leadership skills...

In each category, Barack Obama equals or surpasses Hillary Clinton.


That's why I'm supporting him for President.

[johnaries]

98. What about Chelsea?

I've been thinking about this a lot lately. I know she's young and it's a long way off. But, if Obama wins it will at least break the "Rich White Man" barrier.

I know that a lot of women may not want to wait that long, but I think that if Chelsea decides to go into politics she will be a major force. And, yes, I think she could be President. And probably a damn good one.

Just a thought.

[Yes We Did]

106. Going to bed, but before I do...

I just wanted to say thank you for all the wonderful comments today. I didn't think for one moment that this thread would receive so such attention.

Thanks DU.

[frickaline]

108. It is with sadness that I rec your thread

As much as I would have loved a woman president, I don't want this woman representing me, or worse, womankind. Despite the fact that I'm dying to see a woman elected, I wont vote for a female president 'at all costs' because I won't have that as the example for what women have to do to succeed. I'd love to see the feminist movement break this ceiling. It has been 24 years since our last hope and who knows how long until our next, but its still not worth electing a stubborn person without a moral compass. The damage that would do to the image of women would nearly cancel out the leap forward. When we finally do have a feminist win, I want it to feel like we really did win.

[HooptieWagon]

149. Yes! i wish I could rec a post.

[quickesst]

109. Obama fan...

"And as far as I am concerned, I have permanently lost respect for that woman. There is nothing she can EVER do to get it back, because at this point I KNOW it's nothing but political posturing."

....sure that this particular ploy will sway Clinton supporters, and convince them to "see the light". Obama fans, more in love with the idea of Obama, than the ideas of Obama. Thanks.
quickesst

[Yes We Did]

127. I'm not trying to sway anyone with this thread.

At this point, she has given people more than enough reasons to be swayed in another direction. I am simply sharing how I came my decision.

If you have a problem with it, then I suggest you start your own thread.

[geiger]

110. I wish I had your patience.

To write up what you did. You need to send it to the New York Times.

[BrklynLib at work]

112. K & R. I wanted Edwards, but will happily vote for Obama..but never HRC.

I am a woman who would have loved to have voted for the first Woman POTUS, but I am deeply, deeply disappointed in the kind of candidate that HRC has turned out to be.

[liberaldem4ever]

113. I feel exactly like you do K&R

Sad to think what might have been for Hillary. But it's nobody's fault but her own. Whether she would ever see or admit it is questionable.

[EnviroBat]

114. Spot on.

That is how I felt about a potential woman POTUS. I was excited at first, then I started to hear her speaking, and LYING. Then I started to look into her associations, the "Mark Penn's" of her campaign, and she became slimy to me. I've never felt that way about Obama, he's never come across as the consummate bullshit artist that Hillary is.

Good post. I share the same feelings... :thumbsup:

[aikoaiko]

115. So what does the Kool-aid actually taste like -- I'd like to know before I drink up

[Yes We Did]

128. Progress. Yummy Delicious Progress.

Here, I'll get you a cup. :beer:

[Peacetrain]

116. I have to be honest,

I never supported Senator Clinton.. and the reason was basically, we are just coming off of a "novelty presidency".. father followed by son.. that the idea of another "novelty presidency" husband then wife.. I was always uncomfortable with that amount of power wrapped up in a few families.. it never works out well in democracies.. we are not built for that.. but that being said.. if Senator Clinton had taken the delegate count, I would have supported the ticket because of all the things at risk.. my personal choices..likes and dislikes.. are not how I make my final decisions ..it is on policy, programs, and who can put forward my political agenda in the most ethical way

[sellitman]

118. She started with major strikes against her then made herself unelectable from there.

My reasons for voting Obama over Hillary

* Her War votes

* Her Kyle-Lieberman vote

* Her DLC ties

* Her nasty Rovian Campaign

* No more bushes, no more Clintons

[odelisk8]

119. this

is the problem when you base your choice for POTUS on sex, race, popularity or any other superficial quality and not on the character and policy positions of those candidates...anyone who wanted Hillary BECAUSE she is a woman and no other reason is just as sexist as those who DONT'T want her for only that reason and no other...there are many reasons why Hillary would be a good and MORE reasons a BAD POTUS...but being a woman is not one of them...

[pipi_k]

120. I understand the frustration, I really do, but...

isn't it past time to let go of it?

I'm an Obama supporter, so let's just get that out into the open. I'm no big fan of Hillary Clinton's...

So I'm wondering why people have to keep on with telling anyone who will listen what's wrong with Hillary. I should think it would be apparent by now...and that a decent proportion of Americans have figured it out, which is why, barring a miracle from Heaven, or some skullduggery behind the scenes, she will not be the Democratic nominee.

I mean, if she were even close to being the nominee, you bet...I'd probably be out there myself trying to convince people that she's shown herself to be quite unfit to be president. NOTE: For any Hillary supporters lurking here, I didn't say she WAS unfit...only that she's SHOWN herself to be unfit. And, unfortunately, perception is everything...

But anyway, yeah...we get it. Hillary is mostly cooked at this point. Why waste time and energy on someone who isn't even a threat anymore? And, in the process, end up giving the Hillary supporters even more ammunition to use against us? Like we're kicking her when she's down...which, in a way, is true.

Let it go, for your own peace of mind...she's no longer relevant in this election...

Said with the utmost of respect for everyone here

:)

[wowimthere]

123. There is a unique reason for remembering some of what has happened

in the campaign. When you use your political tools to gin up a war that should have never been authorized, you pay the kind of price Clinton paid. It is the men and women who died because of this catastrophe called Iraq that should keep her legacy front and center for "most" democrats so that people who plan to run again don't make this kind of mistake again. There was a price to pay and anyone else who uses American lives for political gain will pay that price. Like she wants to keep her campaign going, we'd like to keep her decisions front and center.

[wowimthere]

124. K&R

[Beacool]

125. You must not have heard the many gaffes made by your candidate.

The guy is a veritable gaffe machine, but as usual the MSM gives him a pass.

[Yes We Did]

126. I never said Obama was perfect. That was you, with your sarcastic...

messiah b.s.

And anyone on here, who is even the least bit objective KNOWS that I am perfectly willing and DO call Obama out when he does something I don't agree with.

So you don't get to go there with me.

Second, there is a HUGE difference between what Obama has said and done and what Hillary has done.

Third, stay on topic. We're addressing Hillary in this thread... Unless you have some magical video footage on Obama using the same tactics she has used, then I suggest you stop before you are even further behind.

[Beacool]

130. Oh, please!!!

The only people who Hillary needed to apologize for the Bobby remarks were the Kennedys because the comment was insensitive, but that's it. To assume that she was implying that Obama could be assassinated is just B.S. pushed by the pundits and his supporters.

Not everything is about Obama, most of us can manage just fine without having to hear about him daily. To imply that she was thinking of Obama and maybe hoping that he would meet a similar end as Bobby, is just egregious and an outright lie.

I know the woman, you obviously don't, she's a great person and is probably shocked that people would assume that she was hoping for something deadly to happen to Obama.

[Yes We Did]

133. I am entitled to my opinion...

And nothing you have said here has swayed ME in the least.

The Assassination comment is simply her most recent gaffe, if you can call it that. It's more like a pattern; as she has used it three times now.

As far as why I was upset by it; it's simple. What she said was deplorable. You just don't say that kind of stuff.

[eagertolearn]

142. And that's why MSN spent two months on rev. wright, lapel pin and bittegate? n/t

[onehandle]

129. double post. nt

[Roxy66]

131. I take exception to the "Red-Headed stepchildren" comment...

but your premise is right.

[Yes We Did]

134. Haven't you ever heard the saying....

"Beaten like a red-headed step child"

I was just making a comparison. I am sorry if it offended you.

See Hillary, it doesn't hurt to say "I'm Sorry"

[EmeraldCityGrl]

135. It would take a village of red-headed stepchildren to elect her now.

Apologies to all the beautiful red-headed stepchildren.

[Yes We Did]

136. Or as Cartman Calls Them... Gingerkids!

[EmeraldCityGrl]

137. The always PC Cartman...LOL

[George II]

141. On what do you base this statement?

"I, along with millions, thought it was truly time, if not extremely overdue, and that she would do a wonderful job; because the fact that she was a woman."

Is it because millions of voters chose her in the primaries? Could it possibly be that they thought the PERSON Hillary Clinton would do a wonderful job? Where on the ballot was the question asking "WHY" anyone voted for whom they voted?

This is why this has been a polarizing campaign - people have been projecting their own opinions (bias?) onto why a candidate gets a vote. It harkens back to the bush mentality of choosing a single, narrow aspect of a candidate/person/issue, and summing it up as "either your with us or you're against us"!

I voted for Kerry in 2004. Does that mean that I felt it was extremely overdue that a Massachusetts Senator be president? NO!
I voted for Clinton in 1992 and 1996. Does that mean that I felt it was extremely overdue that an Arkansas Governor be president? NO!

The fact that because millions of Americans voted for Hillary Clinton in the primaries does NOT validate your narrow interpretation of their votes. MORE Americans have now voted for Barack Obama in legitimate primaries. How do you interpret that?

[Yes We Did]

143. The only narrow-minded statements made are the ones in your response.

I didn't say all the people who voted for her did so because of how I felt. You said that, or at least you said that is what I wrote.

And I never said "your with us or against us"

People vote for many different reasons. This is simply why I wanted her to be president and why I changed my mind.

I have a right to my opinions, as do you. However, you do not get to spin my words into something I didn't write.

[Xithras]

145. There will never be a "motherly" female president in this country.

Motherly alpha's are very rare, and motherly alpha's in politics are even rarer.

One of the problems with politics in this country today is that it is overwhelmingly dominated by Alpha personalities. Dominating, aggressive, high achievement, goal-driven people who aren't above bullying and are willing to fight for what they want. People who don't fit this mold generally don't win elections, because they're usually campaigning against people who do fit it. It's simple political darwinism...the weak, soft candidates get culled, and the candidates with the stomach to fight and play dirty WIN.

The problem is that the motherly qualities most people think of when envisioning that role are generally incompatible with the whole Alpha personality model. Nurturing, by definition, means viewing the existence of others as equal or greater in value than your own. Mothers generally sacrifice of themselves to help their children succees. This is the antithesis of the Alpha "I gotta WIN, even if it hurts" philosophy. It's also why there are so few alpha females around...many women have this mindset conditioned out of them as unmotherly.

I'm not saying that there are NO motherly alphas, but it's extremely rare. The two are typically exclusive. I've known many alpha women in my life, and none were what you'd consider "motherly". All were of the "drop the damned kid off at daycare while I fight my way to the top of the corporate ladder types". Being an alpha isn't really a good thing.

[HooptieWagon]

150. A woman can be "motherly" and strong also.

I'm quite sure there are several million in the US right now. Strong is not voting for a war bill becuase of political expediency, but instead having a strong moral compass and the inner strength to follow it. Strong is not triangulating, posturing, and riding your husband's coattails, but instead being an individual and forging one's own identity. Strong is the courage of beliefs and convictions, AND the willingness to admit you were wrong. When a woman POTUS candidate like that is nominated, I will gladly vote for her and yell my Amens from the rafters.

[Xithras]

152. I said nothing about strength.

Strength has nothing to do with it. It has to do with being goal driven, persistent, and having the willingness to make your own family suffer indignations so you can win. That's what alpha personalities are. Winning IS the most important thing...that sort of mindset.

There are exceptions, but for the most part this method of thinking pretty well defines politicians from both parties. You don't run for political office if you're an introvert, or if you're worried about the press dragging all of your families baggage into the papers. You don't run for office if your goal is to run a nice campaign and talk about what a friendly guy your opponent is.

People like that do run, and they almost universally get slaughtered on election day. There's a reason that we see so many negative political ads...they WORK. People respond to negative politics. Yeah, we want to hear how our candidate is "good", but telling us how our opponent is "evil" is even better. That's the way politics works in this country, and nice motherly people don't survive well in that kind of environment.

That's why most women in politics hardly qualify as "motherly". That's why so many men in politics engage in risky behavior and can be incredible assholes in person. To succeed in politics, you have to be CONVINCED that YOU are right, they are wrong, and have the guts to do WHATEVER it takes to force your position forward.

Gentle, motherly people need not apply. It's not an anti-women thing either...most men are way too soft to hack that world either.

[HooptieWagon]

154. Perhaps I read more into your post I was responding to than you wrote

and while you're largely correct, I don't think you are in every case. There are thoughtful, unselfish polititians who aren't a highly alpha type personality. Bob Graham, Barack Obama, John Kerry just to name a few... Dennis Kucinich also. I agree they seem to be a minority.

[Teresa Mills]

151. So interesting

I find it interesting to see someone go to such lengths to paint a one-color picture. Before writing a post like this it would be good to see how much of the inflammatory rhetoric could be used against the other opponent. In this case, quite a lot. Twisting absolutely everything is a fairly common skill lately.